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Shwabber
12-26-2011, 11:01 PM
Hey Everyone,

I have an Ocellaris that is puzzling me to no end. It looks like Ich or Brook, however there are no signs of other distress than that of the colour and long white stringy feces. The fish is eating well, swimming normally, not rubbing up against anything. In fact since introduction to the DT three weeks ago, she has become even more friendly and active, however the white blotches are much more apparant. These blotches started as dark spots actually, almost like Velvet. The long stringy feces has been there since day one.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/rowbots/Ocellaris.png

So my best guess is an intestinal worm.....but would that cause enough distress to her system to discolour the scales?

Here are my specs....

Chemistry:
NH3/NH4: 0
N02: 0
N03: 0.25
PH: 8.1
DKH: 8
SG: 1.025
TA: 77.1 F
RO/DI TDS: 3 PPM

Tank Setup:
75 Gallon Corner overflow
20 lbs. Live Rock + 60 lbs. Base Rock
Coralife 125 Protien Skimmer
2 x Ocellaris Clowns
1 x Peppermint Shrimp
2 x Mexican Turbo Snails
12 x Astrea Snails
4 x Large heads of Frogspawn

Tank has been running for 3 months, Initial Algae has ceased and Coraline is spreading.

Any help would be great!

Thanks,
Shwabber

fishytime
12-27-2011, 01:02 AM
white stringy poop is usually an indicator of an internal parasite......Im not positive about the blotchy patches tho

daniella3d
12-27-2011, 02:19 AM
If you think it's an internal parasite, you can try Prazipro. It's reef safe and I have used it a few times in my nano with sponges, soft coral, SPS, LPS, feather duster, flame scallop etc...and none were affected. The only coral that was a bit bothered but survived was my pumping xenia. The fish pooped a very long worm.

It also take care of any flukes if there are some.

It does not kill the pods or bristle worms or bristle stars, nor the shrimp or snails.

If it is internal protozoar parasites, then Prazipro will not work and you then need metronidazole. I would not use metro in the reef tank though.

hillegom
12-27-2011, 02:42 AM
tagging along

Shwabber
12-28-2011, 12:21 PM
I started a treatment of Prazi-Pro yesterday, lets hope it helps. The fish is showing more signs of malnutrition, (sunken jaw area and thinning around the dorsal fin), so I am thinking more and more that it is internal and whatever is in there is taking up her nutrients. I'll keep you posted!

toytech
12-29-2011, 05:13 AM
I just finished a treatment of parazi-pro on my leopard wrasse and tailspot blenny , blenny had stringy poop too . One treatment seemed to clear it right up but if your clown is in such rough shape you might want to do a w/c after the first treatment wait a day then do another round just to be sure .

Shwabber
12-31-2011, 10:47 AM
Well, after day 4, (yesterday), she no longer has long white excrement, she let out 2 goes of long yellow/brown feces instead! Looked like it could be worms???? She is eating even better and the most playful she's been. I had a chat with the LFS guy and we are in agreement that the white marks could be one of three things...

1. She's trying to let one of the Frogspawns host her, (It has been a little more closed at times and see no other reason for it to be so), although I haven't actually seen her do this, she may have some intolerance to it's sting.

2. There could be something unseen within my live rock that is nipping her while she sleeps, (However her fins have never actually appeared damaged).

3. It's rare, but the Peppermint Shrimp could be having a go at her as well.

All in all, it looks like the Prazi is dealing with whatever intestinal problems she is having... (Kudos Daniella3D!!). I'll wait to see if she looks any better after a while. I've moved the one frogspawn for now...and may transfer the Peppermint's to another tank too...just to see if that's the cause.

I just finished a treatment of parazi-pro on my leopard wrasse and tailspot blenny , blenny had stringy poop too . One treatment seemed to clear it right up but if your clown is in such rough shape you might want to do a w/c after the first treatment wait a day then do another round just to be sure .

Toytech, thanks for this as well, I will run my skimmer for a couple days and do a large water change, then repeat for at least another round of Prazi.

Again I'll keep this thread updated.

Thanks,

paddyob
01-02-2012, 08:24 PM
Hosting burns generally appear like small black freckles. My clowns went through the hosting battle in the past.

I see this ( white blotches )once in a while on my tailspot, but I have had him over a year and no problems.

Do not medicate needlessly. It can weaken an immune system.

Treat if necessary but only when necessary.

I have never medicated my tanks.

Good luck.

Shwabber
01-02-2012, 08:29 PM
Hosting burns generally appear like small black freckles. My clowns went through the hosting battle in the past.

I see this ( white blotches )once in a while on my tailspot, but I have had him over a year and no problems.

Do not medicate needlessly. It can weaken an immune system.

Treat if necessary but only when necessary.

I have never medicated my tanks.

Good luck.

True, I would expect hosting burns to be black as well.

She really isn't bothered by anything....I did find a couple of Bristleworms today...but highly doubt they would be the cause...I'm just going to wait and see if the colour returns. I like your statement about not unecessarily medicating!! I agree!

BlueWorldAquatic
01-02-2012, 09:58 PM
could be healing spots, as you mentioned black specks earlier, posibility of hosting burns. You see that a lot when clowns host in carpets.

White stringy turds are definately signs of Brooklynella, but you would need symptons of heavy breathing and scrathing too.

If you can find it, look for a product called ImmunaVital, not sure which LFS out there would have it, but Big Al's might. It will help strengthen the clown's immune system.

Like ColdFX for fish. :biggrin:

Ken - BWA

Shwabber
01-13-2012, 11:41 PM
Well, for those that may be able to, I am still looking for help. It has now been five weeks since the appearance of the white marks in the photo. Still getting worse, and now she is at the top of the tank presumably looking for more O2. Whatever it is must be affecting her gills. She is not eating very well now either.

Any ideas for a course of treatment??

QT is set up and should be ready by this time tomorrow.

Do I treat the Fungus....or for a bacterial infection....

gregzz4
01-13-2012, 11:50 PM
Give us a few new pics
IMO, and don't take this as gospel, but in no way do those marks even remotely resemble either ich or Velvet

daniella3d
01-14-2012, 01:49 AM
I would treat with paraguard. if you don't know the nature of the illness it is best to get a broad spectrum medecine. Paraguard cure bacterial infection as well as external parasites and fungus.

Well, for those that may be able to, I am still looking for help. It has now been five weeks since the appearance of the white marks in the photo. Still getting worse, and now she is at the top of the tank presumably looking for more O2. Whatever it is must be affecting her gills. She is not eating very well now either.

Any ideas for a course of treatment??

QT is set up and should be ready by this time tomorrow.

Do I treat the Fungus....or for a bacterial infection....

Shwabber
01-14-2012, 02:09 AM
I would treat with paraguard. if you don't know the nature of the illness it is best to get a broad spectrum medecine. Paraguard cure bacterial infection as well as external parasites and fungus.

Thx I will look into that one....

Here are some new pics from tonight...sorry they're fuzzy....she's jerking around at the top....

Note the sunken area around her jaw....and her entire lower mouth area from the gills forward is hazy white coloured.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/rowbots/IMG_4565.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/rowbots/IMG_4561.jpg


Her eyes look very weird as well....maybe just dialated....not cloudy though.

wingedfish
01-14-2012, 02:26 AM
Looks like brooklynella to me.

gregzz4
01-14-2012, 02:43 AM
Looks like brooklynella to me.
I'm no expert ...
If that's the diagnosis, why are the spots so pronounced ? In other words, is freshwater ich that much smaller than saltwater ?

wingedfish
01-14-2012, 02:54 AM
Ich is not brooklynella. Similar though. Ich is the defined spots very similar to freshwater ich. Brooklynella is a similar parasite but the symptoms/signs are different.

I'm no expert either and in no way can I be sure of what it is. Brooklynella has my vote.

Nano
01-14-2012, 02:59 AM
awww poor little sucker, are you treating her with anything? I take it from what I've read theres no real ID yet on whats happening?

All the best I hope she pulls through

daniella3d
01-14-2012, 03:51 AM
If it's brook paraguard should take care of it in about 3 to 5 day you should see improvement. I hope the fish is not too far gone.

It's been a long time though..and brook is a fast killer, as well as marine velvet so I doubt it is that but you never know.

I would do a one hour dip at first at dip concentration (written on the bottle) and watch the fish. if it is a parasite, that dip should improve the fish condition to begin with.

Looking at the pic of the fish..this is urgent now. He's in bad condition.

Shwabber
01-14-2012, 12:53 PM
Looking at the pic of the fish..this is urgent now. He's in bad condition.

Definately! She went downhill really fast the last 2 days. In fact she was acting great after the Prazi treatments....now this:cry:

At least its a learning experience. I have been doing so much research my eyes are hurting! Of course in all my research nothing looked like it matched her condition...but now things are different.

I think I will try the dip....if she survives I'll go from there....Keep you posted...thanks everyone!

fishoholic
01-14-2012, 03:46 PM
Hi Shaun I hate to say it but I had a feeling you were going to have some issues. Your tank has been set up for two months and from your facebook pic's it looks like you used one piece of live rock and the rest dead rock, when you use mostly dead rock it takes a very very long time for the dead rock to become live rock. It usually takes 4-6 months for the dead rock to start to seed and up to a year before it actually becomes live rock, obviously the more live rock you have the faster this process will take. Since live rock is your main filter for your system, when you use dead rock it's like running your tank without a filter. Until the dead rock becomes live you will have issues with your tank, think of it like the tank is constantly cycling itself until the dead rock becomes live.

Put it this way; about a year ago I added 20 pounds of marco rock (dead rock) to my system. I have around 500 pounds of live rock in my system (my two 230g's and my 80g all plumbed together) and it took 4 months to turn the 20 pounds of marco rock into live rock, and that was with 500 pounds seeding it :surprise:

During this time you can only really count the amount of live rock you have not the dead rock when it comes to stocking your tank. So (for example) if you have 20 pounds of live rock and 50 pounds of dead rock, stock like you only have 20 pounds. I know you recently added a foxface and a regal tang (which I mentioned a 75g was way to small for, and you said you planned on upgrading to a 180g in the future) but with the extra bio load (not to mention the stress of largish fish in a small tank) and with not enough established live rock, I'm betting that is a contributing factor to the problems you are having.

There is a product called Stability by Seachem which may help. Here's a link http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Stability.html, or prodibio is another similar product.

daniella3d
01-14-2012, 05:11 PM
So what's the water quality like in that tank? could this be simple ammonia burn? Was water quality tested for nitrites, ammonia and nitrates?

Shwabber
01-14-2012, 07:15 PM
So what's the water quality like in that tank? could this be simple ammonia burn? Was water quality tested for nitrites, ammonia and nitrates?

Yeppers, with more than one different test kit....and by the LFS guy with his kits as well.....Filtration isn't a problem ....YET....(I know Laurie...newbie mistakes....but I'm at where I'm at :cry:)

Today's readings...

NH3=0
NO2=0
NO3=1

Via Tetratest and Elos kits.

Other Parameters today

TA=77.8F
SG=1.025
KH=8
P04=0.01

Tried a 1 hour dip with ParaGuard... she's still going ....was scary for a bit.

She's still at the top and respirating in the 100/minute range. But a bit of her Natural Orange colour has already come back on her pectoral and anal fins.

I guess the next step is all fish in the Hospital tank for prolonged treatment???

Comments??

gregzz4
01-14-2012, 07:40 PM
Glad she's still showing some progress. Getting your NO3 to 0 might help with stress. As for treating the other fish, you may want to avoid that at this point as there is no reason to put undue stress on them, thus lowering their immunity. If they aren't showing any signs, I'd leave them be. Just keep a REALLY close eye on them. Take pictures everyday for reference. Then you'll know for sure, instead of "Hmm, did I see that yesterday or not?"

daniella3d
01-14-2012, 07:43 PM
We don't know what it is. If it is a fungus infection and the other fish are ok, then maybe there is no need to treat all of them. Are any other fish showing sign?

But get the clownfish right away in quarantine and treat it with Paraguard. He's not going to last long in that condition and what ever it is, it must be treated very fast.

If this is a parasite, then yes all fish must be treated. I am sceptical about it being velvet, because all fish or most fish would show sign, but broklynella sometimes affect one fish for a while and then move on. You said it was like for about 3 weeks now? and no other fish showing sign?

What I am wondering at this point is if this is contagious.

To be extra safe you could treat all fish in quarantine and leave the display empty of fish for 8 weeks, but I am not sure it is necessary if no other fish are showing sign....

hmmm...what do other people think? I know if it was my fish I would treat it in QT but I would keep the other in observation in the display for now if they don't show any sign. If this is brooklynella I am wondering how come it took so long to evolve. Brooklynella is a fast killer usually but I guess there is always the exception to the rule.

It's a nice fish and I hope he makes it through.






Yeppers, with more than one different test kit....and by the LFS guy with his kits as well.....Filtration isn't a problem ....YET....(I know Laurie...newbie mistakes....but I'm at where I'm at :cry:)

Today's readings...

NH3=0
NO2=0
NO3=1

Via Tetratest and Elos kits.

Other Parameters today

TA=77.8F
SG=1.025
KH=8
P04=0.01

Tried a 1 hour dip with ParaGuard... she's still going ....was scary for a bit.

She's still at the top and respirating in the 100/minute range. But a bit of her Natural Orange colour has already come back on her pectoral and anal fins.

I guess the next step is all fish in the Hospital tank for prolonged treatment???

Comments??

Shwabber
01-14-2012, 08:20 PM
OK...She's in the HT....with Paraguard. I read somewhere that I should 2x the dose for Marine fish as the meds are for both fresh and marine.... I Have not done this. But is this true???

I really truely appreciate all the help!

daniella3d
01-14-2012, 08:47 PM
I am not doing this. I use the dose they put on the bottle and it has been more than enough for me so far. I am treating 2 clownfish right now that I thought were starting brook because they were scratching and I treat with the normal dose. I don't see why treat with double.

If it's not something written on the bottle and recommanded on the Seachem web site, I would never do that. It's risky. After all Paraguard is still formaline.

So far after 2 days of treatment at regular dosage I have not seen any more scratching. They have been in treatment for 8 days now, and will remain at regular concentration for another week or so, maybe 3 just to be safe.

I also treated my niger trigger for a popeye and 3 weeks at normal dose was enough.

OK...She's in the HT....with Paraguard. I read somewhere that I should 2x the dose for Marine fish as the meds are for both fresh and marine.... I Have not done this. But is this true???

I really truely appreciate all the help!

Shwabber
01-14-2012, 10:09 PM
I am not doing this. I use the dose they put on the bottle and it has been more than enough for me so far. I am treating 2 clownfish right now that I thought were starting brook because they were scratching and I treat with the normal dose. I don't see why treat with double.

If it's not something written on the bottle and recommanded on the Seachem web site, I would never do that. It's risky. After all Paraguard is still formaline.

So far after 2 days of treatment at regular dosage I have not seen any more scratching. They have been in treatment for 8 days now, and will remain at regular concentration for another week or so, maybe 3 just to be safe.

I also treated my niger trigger for a popeye and 3 weeks at normal dose was enough.

That is what I thought as well...thanks!:biggrin:

Shwabber
01-14-2012, 10:49 PM
Well....she has passed....:cry:

Now to figure out what it was....and will my other clown or fish be affected....

If it was Brook....can my Fox-Face or Hippo Tang pick that up???

My Fox Face does have a couple of white fuzzy spots possibly on his tail....hard to tell for sure though.

Are there people out there who can do a kind of inspection...or is there a way I can do this myself.....more research I guess.

gregzz4
01-14-2012, 11:37 PM
Sorry to hear that Shaun. Guess she was too far gone to handle the stress.

Shwabber
01-14-2012, 11:42 PM
Sorry to hear that Shaun. Guess she was too far gone to handle the stress.

Thanks Gregzz!

I layed her out on a white surface and found a couple of little black crescent shaped things fell off. They were still wriggling around... about 1mm in length. It looked like a dark white grub would look when it curls up...only a little slimmer and dark brown/black in colour. Gonna see if I can ID it on the web.....my neighbor may have a microscope ....so I might see if I can reference it from a stock photo.

daniella3d
01-14-2012, 11:47 PM
Sorry to hear about your fish :( maybe it was brooklynella? not sure but for identifying a small parasites like brook, you would need a microscope for sure because it's a small protozoare.

Maybe what you found are some flukes, but I doubt it since prazipro would have probably killed them. The best way is to do a scrape but it will be hard to find anything alive if the fish has been dead and out of the water for a few days, maybe even few hours.



Thanks Gregzz!

I layed her out on a white surface and found a couple of little black crescent shaped things fell off. They were still wriggling around... about 1mm in length. It looked like a dark white grub would look when it curls up...only a little slimmer and dark brown/black in colour. Gonna see if I can ID it on the web.....my neighbor may have a microscope ....so I might see if I can reference it from a stock photo.

gregzz4
01-14-2012, 11:48 PM
Yikes !
I'd try to keep some in a SW container and see if the LFS can help you identify them uglies

Shwabber
01-15-2012, 08:13 PM
No help on ID...however I have moved everyone to the Hospital tank as the Fox-Face and the other Clown were showing some white areas on theit fins...the Hippo was not but I'm going to treat them all.

Daniella...what are your treatment suggestions with Paraguard...the bottle states every day as necessary....but I am thinking every other day with a water change in between??? For 5 goes maybe???

daniella3d
01-15-2012, 08:24 PM
every day as the dosage on the bottle, I think one cap full for each 10 gallons every day, for at least 2 weeks. I am keeping it for 3 weeks.

I did 3 weeks for my trigger and he did not have any problem with it.

Now I have Paraguard in my tank for 10 days and the corals that I have in there are still alive (clove polyp and green star polyp, zoan, paly) as well as the aiptasias unfortunatly, but at least the fish have stopped scratching.

I don't think Paraguard is very harsh medicine but I would never overdose or underdose, just stick to the instruction on the bottle and dose each day so that what ever parasite is on the fish it will not have the chance to develop resistance.

This look more and more to be brooklynella since it started on the clownfish. If it was marine velvet I guess it would have spread much faster than this.



No help on ID...however I have moved everyone to the Hospital tank as the Fox-Face and the other Clown were showing some white areas on theit fins...the Hippo was not but I'm going to treat them all.

Daniella...what are your treatment suggestions with Paraguard...the bottle states every day as necessary....but I am thinking every other day with a water change in between??? For 5 goes maybe???

gregzz4
01-15-2012, 08:46 PM
I agree with daniella, stick to the bottle dose and do not stop it until everyone looks cleared up. If you go every other day, you may cause an immunity in the 'bugs'.
Do all of your normal maintenance, and if you're not, once a week water changes.
Something to consider too, is that you should turn your skimmer off during treatment. If they are all in a QT, I'd recommend using a HOB filter with no carbon. Read the last line below.

This is straight from the Seachem site;

Q: Is ParaGuard™ safe for use in marine reef tanks with invertebrates and soft corals?
A: We do not sell or market ParaGuard as invert safe because it would be impossible to test it with every available invert under every potential water parameter. We have had people use it with invertabrates with no problems, but we have also had people encounter problems. If you decide to use it we stress caution; dose at 1/4 to 1/2 dose and observe how your inverts and soft corals react. If they seem to tolerate the dosing, increase slowly up to no more than the prescribed dose as long as they are tolerating it. If you need to get rid of the ParaGuard™ quickly, just turn your skimmer back on.

gregzz4
01-15-2012, 08:50 PM
And don't forget to aerate the QT well as formalin decreases Oxygen levels, as will heavy respirating

Shwabber
01-16-2012, 02:31 PM
I agree with daniella, stick to the bottle dose and do not stop it until everyone looks cleared up. If you go every other day, you may cause an immunity in the 'bugs'.
Do all of your normal maintenance, and if you're not, once a week water changes.
Something to consider too, is that you should turn your skimmer off during treatment. If they are all in a QT, I'd recommend using a HOB filter with no carbon. Read the last line below.

This is straight from the Seachem site;

Q: Is ParaGuard™ safe for use in marine reef tanks with invertebrates and soft corals?
A: We do not sell or market ParaGuard as invert safe because it would be impossible to test it with every available invert under every potential water parameter. We have had people use it with invertabrates with no problems, but we have also had people encounter problems. If you decide to use it we stress caution; dose at 1/4 to 1/2 dose and observe how your inverts and soft corals react. If they seem to tolerate the dosing, increase slowly up to no more than the prescribed dose as long as they are tolerating it. If you need to get rid of the ParaGuard™ quickly, just turn your skimmer back on.


Excellent thanks to both of you!!

I have them in QT... HOB basic sponge filter ...no carbon.... treating once per day at recommended dosage... have a 14 inch bubble curtain set up...lots of aeration... using Seachem Prime as well to help curb amonia ......planning on 25% water changes daily..before the next meds are introduced. Just did a water change of near 50% as my amonia had come up to 0.25 ppm already after 2 days. Two of the three of them are eating fine.... my Hippo however is not happy and has not eaten last nighht or today yet....she is hiding on her side under a piece of PVC (which is all I have in there...2 PVc T's and a big Y).

Keep you posted!