PDA

View Full Version : Looking for RO/DI Solution - Calgary


molotov
09-12-2011, 04:01 PM
Hey all, I live in SW Calgary and was wondering what my best option for a reverse osmosis system might be. I'm looking for a system and was wondering if I might be able to get away with just an RO system or would I be better off with a RO/DI system.

I wouldn't mind running a supply line to my fridge in addition to supplying water for my aquarium.

Another concern I have is waste water. It kind of makes me sick to waste water as it's such a precious resource that we tend to take for granted. From what I've read the less stages you have the less waste? Also the less GPD the less waste.

All suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Blom
09-12-2011, 04:12 PM
Morning, first let me start by saying I am only regurgitating info I've learned off the forum. You can of course get by with just RO water, unless of course your source water is that bad, which it isnt cause your in Calgary. But a RO/DI system will ensure that you start off with 0ppm or pure water. From what I have read though you would not want this to be your only source of drinking water, some of the minerals in the water are good for you. RO water I would think would be fine to drink as you can buy RO drinking water :lol:

As for the waste water I agree, it seems like such a waste. 5G pure water to 10G waste :cry:. All I do to make myself feel better about it is use the waste water for other things in my house such as plants. My plan for the next house is to run the waste water to a rain barrel which I will use for outdoor gardening and the lawn. Im not sure if the number of stages or GPD rating effects the ratio of good/waste water, im sure someone on here will know.

molotov
09-12-2011, 04:25 PM
Ya I don't think the tap water in Calgary is all that bad. I believe we just removed flouride from the water so that should help. I was thinking of buying a TDS meter to see what I might be able to get away with as far as an RO system goes. The problem is the readings could be quite different depending on the time of season. For example in the spring when the runoff is high there might be more contaminents in the water than in the fall.

Blom
09-12-2011, 04:36 PM
Very true, im sure the age of the neighborhood would come into play as well due to piping used and condition its in. Im sure you could find readings online, just a quick google led me to this page,

http://www.calgaryaquariumsociety.com/Articles/Calgary_Tap_Water_VS_Lake_Malawi_Water.html

molotov
09-12-2011, 04:44 PM
Thats a good link. Thank you. I have also found this:

http://www.calgary.ca/UEP/Water/Documents/Water-Documents/2010_water_quality_report.pdf

Myka
09-12-2011, 04:50 PM
From what I've read the less stages you have the less waste? Also the less GPD the less waste.

Neither of these are true.

The best you can do is about 1:1 waste but you will probably go through RO membranes quicker. The waste water is used to flush the membrane as you're making water. Less flushing means the membrane clogs up with scaly residue quicker.

I am doing an experiment lately. I have a 150 gpd RO membrane that I am using a 75 gpd flow restrictor on it. My tap is about 60-62 psi. I get about 40 gallons in 8 hours (I think...I should measure). I am getting about 1.25:1 (good:waste). I tested the TDS coming out of the RO (before the DI) at 2 ppm before I started my experiment and I have made about 700 gallons of good water since doing this and the RO membrane is still putting out only 2 ppm. However, I am not getting 1.25:1 anymore as the membrane is getting clogged up which forces more water through the waste line. I recently got some citric acid to soak the membrane in to hopefully remove the scaly deposits...I'm still researching the procedure for this.

Get creative using the waste water. I collect the waste water outside (in the summer months) and use a Mag 3 pump on a hose to water the flower gardens by hand or go to the washing machine where I can use the waste water for the wash cycle. I would suggest a bigger pump because this one is a bit slow...it's just what I have on hand. It is surprising how quickly you can use up waste water in the laundry room! We are getting some stackable laundry machines to make room in the laundry room to keep a waste water bin in there over winter. I am going to install a float switch on that bin because it is inside, and because float switches can be unreliable I will not rely on it. I will still maintain vigilance and try to remember to stop the water before it even gets to the float. Some people keep the water turned on all the time, and use the float switch to automatically turn the water back on as soon as some is used. This is when people have troubles with switches failing, and flooding the house.

Normally I like to support local fish stores, but I like to use Bulk Reef Supply for all RO equipment. They have great prices, really good shipping policies, and particularly because they have everything you need in stock! Don't forget to order a TDS meter. I like handheld meters because they are easier to calibrate and are easier to use when you want to test the TDS coming out of the RO before the DI stage. This is important when figuring out if the RO membrane is exhausted or if only DI is exhausted. I usually replace DI 2-3 times before I need to replace the RO membrane.

molotov
09-12-2011, 05:01 PM
Hey Mika, thats funny you replied to my thread. I read a bunch of your posts on the matter last night.

I was still wondering if I can get away with just an RO unit or should I be using a full RO/DI unit? If I can get away with just an RO unit then I can run a line to my fridge as save on the cost of replacing the $75 filter in my fridge every year.

Is there anyone on here in Calgary SW just running on RO unit alone? How has your success been?

abcha0s
09-12-2011, 05:21 PM
Hi Molotov

I would really recommend getting a full RO/DI unit. If you don't want to be bothered with the DI stage, just leave it empty. The unit will then run as an RO only unit, but if you ever decide that you want the DI you can always add it back.

Calgary water in my neighborhood tests between 150 and 180 ppm. I have an inline TDS meter right off the water supply and test regularly. Water coming out of my RO before the DI tests around 5-10 ppm after 10 minutes of operation. Water tests 0ppm after the DI chamber.

There are many people that believe you will be fine with just using tap water. I am not one of those people. In my opinion, the path to a stable system is to control as many water parameters as possible. Starting with pure water is somewhat essential to this philosophy. Without using RO/DI water, if your tank is not stable you will be second guessing yourself. Tap water simply introduces another unknown that most people prefer not to deal with.

Perhaps I am biased as we sell RO and RO/DI filters, but I can honestly say that I've been using RO/DI on my tanks for as long as I've been in this hobby and I personally feel that it is essential.

Here's what we carry.

http://www.conceptaquatics.ca/index.php/aquarium-hardware/reverse-osmosis-filters.html

We're in Calgary so pickup would work best.

Thanks

Brad

molotov
09-12-2011, 05:32 PM
Hello Brad,

I have read A LOT of your threads and value your opinion. I got this link from mika for Bulk Reef Supply. After searching through their site I found what I think is the solution for me.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/review/product/list/id/526/category/182/

I would prefer to buy locally from someone such as yourself. Do you carry a unit that facilitates RO/DI as well as drinking water?

Thanks,
Mark

mike31154
09-12-2011, 05:39 PM
Certainly you may use just RO, but in all likelihood you will end up with a trace of TDS at the output. The problem is, there's no way of telling what that 1 or 2 TDS is comprised of. Probably harmless to you & I, but over the long term it will affect what's going into your aquarium. Probably not a big deal, but on the other hand, having the DI stage there is not going to slow down your production that much if at all and the DI media should last a long time if the membrane output is at 1 or 2. Adding the DI stage shouldn't break the bank either. You can still tee off a line after the RO stage to run to your fridge or a drinking faucet, whatever.

You're on the right track to get a handheld TDS meter to test your source water before buying a system. Another good idea is to get a pressure guage, should be less than $20 and not that hard to find. Most hardware stores and certainly irrigation system suppliers will have guages made specifically for measuring water pressure. I picked up two at Princess Auto. You want at least 60 psi for efficient performance. Water pressure, probably more than any other factor will have the greatest impact on production of good as well as waste water. There's more than likely a PRV (Pressure Regulating Valve) in your home plumbing just downstream of the water meter. If you can locate that, chances are it's adjustable. I've tweaked mine to provide just over 80 psi. I think most RO membrane performance numbers are based on 70 psi as well as a certain temperature which I don't recall at the moment.

Had a quick look at the report from the City you linked to and didn't see if they used Chlorine or Chloramine to treat the drinking water. You should confirm which since this will determine whether you need two carbon stages (Chloramine) or just one (Chlorine). I suspect a fellow Calgarian can jump in here & provide that info.

molotov
09-12-2011, 05:47 PM
Hey Mike, I also read some of your old threads on this topic as well. I think I must have read the thread where yourself and Mika went over this topic. I haven't looked for the valve you mentioned yet but will do so probably tonight. I suspect I shouldn't have an issue with water pressure as my house is not lacking in that department.

I also just stumbled on a water saving upgrade kit from the same supplier.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/150-gpd-water-saving-upgrade-kit.html

I think I'm getting closer and closer to finding the solution that will work best for me.

Thank you all for your input. It is very much appreciated. I thought this is probably the very foundation on which I will build so I want to make sure it's done right the first time.

Myka
09-12-2011, 07:14 PM
That upgrade kit works essentially the same way I am working my system except I am using one 150 gpd membrane instead of two 75 gpd. The way they do it is "safer" for the membrane, but I'm getting more efficiency. Also be aware that you need 65 psi through your tap for the water to actually come out at 150 gpd whether you use one or two membranes.

I was still wondering if I can get away with just an RO unit or should I be using a full RO/DI unit? If I can get away with just an RO unit then I can run a line to my fridge as save on the cost of replacing the $75 filter in my fridge every year.

Split the line after the RO. Run one of those lines to your fridge, then the other to your DI (which then runs to your RO/DI storage container). I'm not sure how the plumbing on a fridge works though...do you have a pressure tank for it, or does it run off tap pressure?

After searching through their site I found what I think is the solution for me.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/review/product/list/id/526/category/182/

This looks like a good idea for you, but I don't think you would need the pressure storage tank for your fridge...? I would think if you need a storage tank that you would already have it? I don't know much about plumbing the fridge.

abcha0s
09-13-2011, 03:16 AM
Hello Brad,

I have read A LOT of your threads and value your opinion. I got this link from mika for Bulk Reef Supply. After searching through their site I found what I think is the solution for me.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/review/product/list/id/526/category/182/

I would prefer to buy locally from someone such as yourself. Do you carry a unit that facilitates RO/DI as well as drinking water?

Thanks,
Mark

Hi Mark

Thanks for the kind words. It's a little bit of 'smoke and mirrors' mixed in with lots of research.

As much as I'd really like to sell you one of the Vertex RO/DI units, I have to admit that the BRS unit is probably what you are looking for. Keep us in mind for any of the other things you might need.

I'm impressed by how much feedback this thread generated. There are some really good ideas posted.

I'd personally recommend an inline TDS meter vs. a hand held one. Other than that, I think you are on the right track.

Thanks

Brad

Myka
09-13-2011, 02:52 PM
Brad, why do you like inline TDS meters better? Do you sell one that can be calibrated by the consumer?

abcha0s
09-14-2011, 05:43 AM
Brad, why do you like inline TDS meters better? Do you sell one that can be calibrated by the consumer?

Hi Myka

As of yet, I don't think we stock any TDS meters. That said, they kind of go hand in hand with RO units, so perhaps we should.

I own two dual stage inline TDS meters. Both can be calibrated, but i have never done so. Personally, I'm not as interested in an accurate reading as
I am about a change from a known baseline parameter.

If my tap water is 100ppm or 200ppm, I don't really care. It is interesting to see if in the spring with the snow melt and run off the TDS increases, but it's not an important reading to me.

I am interested in the TDS between the RO and DI as well as the TDS between the DI and the Resevoir. These measurements tell me when to replace my membrane and when to replace my resin. With an inline monitor, I can see the effect of flushing the membrane in real-time and I can time how long it takes to reach peak performance.

For example, I know that it takes almost 5 minutes of flushing to bring the TDS down below 10ppm after the RO membrane, so I have a solenoid that flushes for 5 minutes once a day when the unit comes on.

I'm also not too concerned about whether my TDS is 0ppm or 1ppm as long as it doesn't start shifting too much. I know the calibration is reasonably accurate because when I change the DI resin the monitor reads 0ppm.

For my application, these sensors really must be inline to be effective.

- Brad

molotov
09-14-2011, 01:58 PM
Hey Brad/Myka/Blom,

Thanks for your input. It really helped quite a bit. I ordered the unit along with the pieces I think will be best for my needs. I did do quite a bit of research myself before I posted this thread so I'll also post what I purchased. I hope it will help others in their decision making.



75 GPD RO/DI 5 Stage Drinking and Reef Water System
Membrane Flush Kit
150 GPD Water Saving Upgrade Kit
Glycerin Filled Pressure Gauge 1-100 PSI
Dual Inline TDS Meter DM-1 HM Digital


I figure If I'm going to buy a reverse osmosis kit I might as well incorporate it into our drinking water if I can as well. That way it will save me on fridge, brita filters and whatever else I can save on.

I don't like wasting water so I purchased the Water Saving Kit.

The pressure guage I think was a cheap piece and if these things work better at a certain psi I will know what psi I have in my house.

Brad, I agree with what you said about the Inline TDS Meter. Knowing when to flush/change your filters is key to getting the most from your RO unit; both after the RO stage and after the DI stage. Who wants to be playing guessing games with their equipment. Taking the guess work out is key. Plus it was a cheap add-on.

Thanks and I hope this will help others.

Mark

mike31154
09-14-2011, 04:59 PM
Sounds like you've made a great choice based on your research. Before this thread fades into the archives I thought I'd just mention that I find it useful to have two pressure guages plumbed into my RODI system, one before the RO membrane (generally the config with most systems offered with that option), the other right at the input. This allows me to monitor the pressure differential between the two and has proven a great way to determine the state/life of the pre filters. For the price of another psi guage, I've found it a worthwile addition.

Most recommendations I've seen on forums & from system vendors are to change the poly pre filters as well as carbon stages at certain time based intervals such as 6 months. While I'm not a RODI expert, this type of time based maintenance makes no sense to me. Logic tells me that I should be basing system maintenance on gallons throughput and this varies for everyone I'm sure. Yes, prefilters are inexpensive, but why not get full use out of them by monitoring parameters such as pressure differential & number of gallons produced? The clear filter housings are a good indicator of when pre filters need some TLC, but I believe the more reliable method is a dual pressure guage set up.

While my water provider maintains a generally reliable & constant pressure, there are minor fluctuations from time to time and with a single pressure guage, I may be inclined to think the system needs maintenance. Having two pressure guages helps mitigate that issue. With clean pre filters the pressure differential on my set up is between 18 & 20 psi, eg, guage 1 reads 86 psi & guage 2 reads 68 for a differential (pressure drop) of 18 psi between the input & the RO membrane. When this number approaches 22 psi, I know it's time to service the 5 micron poly pre filter. I've actually found taking it out, scrubbing the exterior and putting it back in restores performance to near new. Most of the grunge causing the pressure drop collects on the outer surface of the pre filter in my situation. When my 5 stage system was delivered it came configured with 5 micron poly pre filter, the 0.5 micron carbon chlorine guzzler, 1 micron carbon block, 75 gpd RO membrane & DI stage. After about a year of usage & monitoring I've removed the second carbon stage (not required since provider uses chlorine, not chloramine). Also moved the 0.5 micron carbon to stage 3 and added a 1 micron poly to stage 2. This configuration has been working great for me, YMMV.

I've added a worksheet to my Marine Aquarium Excel spreadsheet to track RODI system parameters, including gallons of water produced. It's been a great tool in maintaining the system. Better than two years running now and still on original DI media as well as carbon block & membrane. The 0.5 micron carbon block in my system is a rated for 20,000 gallons throughput at 1 gpm, so this is another instance where keeping track of your throughput comes in handy. I hightly doubt that most hobbyists produce that much water in 6 months, so why replace it at that interval? I've purchased a pool test kit which can measure chlorine & intend to test the water after carbon block soon though, just to ensure it's still pulling out the nasty stuff.

Finally (whew, turned into a bit of a novel here), having the drinking water option is a great idea. In Vernon I'm on the Kalamalka Lake source and we've been under a boil water notice since early September. This hasn't happened very often but being able to produce safe drinking water with my own system is coming in real handy right about now. Wine & beer making with concentrate is another activity that benefits from the pure water I'm able to make. Cheers.

Myka
09-14-2011, 06:50 PM
I find it useful to have two pressure guages plumbed into my RODI system, one before the RO membrane (generally the config with most systems offered with that option), the other right at the input. This allows me to monitor the pressure differential between the two and has proven a great way to determine the state/life of the pre filters.

Ah, very good Mike. I like this. :)