If it is Marine Velvet... *Updated*

[ScubaSteve]

So last night my mandarin just up and died from something I can't quite identify. Last weekend my butterfly died from what I thought was ich. I'm now left with two fish: a blenny and a goby.

The goby seems totally fine. The blenny has been, for the past few days, biting his tail and rubbing himself again soft stuff a little more than usual. Today, maybe because I'm paranoid, I have noticed him spending most of his time near the top of the tank (but the again he spends most of his time there usually) . They're both eating fine and neither are showing any signs of the typical "velvet" (then again, it's hard to tell on white and yellow fish).

What is your take on this? If it is velvet, should I move them to QT and medicate? Or should I observe them and see if they fight off infection on their own?

[BlueTang<3]

It never hurts to play on the cautious side. It is only two fish you could wait it out to see what happens, but at the same time its somethings life your gambling on.

[reefwars]

best thing to do now is get those fish in quarantine and get your tank running fishless its a two month road for you with no fish,rasing the temp, its the only answer now, whether or not your other fish are gonna make it is a hard call, formalin is the only thing i have heard of but i have not used it and im not sure to the extent on how it works so maybe some one else can chime in for that, i know theres a few who have dealt with it on here, you could ask fishoholic she would have some advice to give you.....sorry for your luck buddy

[frizzo1983]

My best advice is put a UV on for a few weeks thats what I did when my fish got it and it cleared up pretty quick. Just my opinion.

[MMAX]

I don't think raising the temp will do much for velvet, but get everyone out into a hospital tank. Blennies and gobies are a little moer resistant to things like velvet so I've read, so they just might make it. When I was hit last October, my only fish that showed no signs whatsoever were my lawnmower blenny and my zebra dartfish(goby family). I didn't medicate them, just quarintine. 2 monthe fishless might be a good start, but I went 3 to be on the safe side and everything's fine today.

[fishoholic]

Here's a link to thread I started when I was dealing with velvet. Take a look through it as there is a lot of info about velvet in it and some pic.'s too. My mandarin didn't seem to be affected by the velvet but he died in QT. However with velvet all fish have to be QT'd to get the disease out of the tank, some fish have a resistance to velvet and will not show signs of it (my wrasses/CBB/mandarin) but can be carriers of the disease and give it to any new fish you add. Which is why it's important to QT and leave the display fishless for 6-8 weeks.
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51938

[ScubaSteve]

I don't actually know if it velvet or not. The butterfly had ich, I can say that for certain.. he may also have had velvet at the same time. The mandarin surprised me as I thught they were more immune to it than other. The mandarin had a white head... I don't know if this was velvet or if it was something else (like scratching on a rock).

Today the goby still seems fine but the blenny is quite bloated in his stomach. I don't know if it was because he over-ate yesterday (I've been feeding heavier to keep them strong), or if he's constipated for whatever reason, or if he's got something like dropsy (I think either of the former two). He's still out swimming, seems chipper but is still hanging out near the surface (which he usually does anyways).

I'm setting up a QT as I type this just in case, but I need some advice on what to do here...

[apex82]

I am in the same boat and lost 10 fish in a week already... Once they stopped eating they died the next day. However three died in quarantine from what I think was a chemical reaction when using dechlorinator in water with a copper treatment. I didnt know of this as there are no warnings on copper product or the dechlorinator. If you are using tap water, just let the water sit for 24 hours to leach out the chlorine(wont get rid of chloramines however if your area has them in the water). I say get em out asap, its just not worth losing new additions to the tank. I cant believe I have to go 2 months without a single fish in the tank.... crazy

[vaporize]

Sorry to say that if its really marine velvet, by the time you notice it (with white dusty spots), you have less than 50% chance of saving them even with medication. It is not like ich that can live with your fish for awhile, it will kill most and every single fish in your tank if you do not treat them properly. It kills really fast, and don't even think of using just freshwater or hyposalinity to treat them - it's not ich.

[ScubaSteve]

Sorry to say that if its really marine velvet, by the time you notice it (with white dusty spots), you have less than 50% chance of saving them even with medication. It is not like ich that can live with your fish for awhile, it will kill most and every single fish in your tank if you do not treat them properly. It kills really fast, and don't even think of using just freshwater or hyposalinity to treat them - it's not ich.

See, this is the issue... I don't KNOW this is velvet. Someone mentioned it was velvet but I don't think it is. The butterfly was covered in ich (I know this for sure) and may have had velvet simultaneously, I'll never know. The mandarin had the same tattered fins as the butterfly but did not show any characteristic signs of velvet; I believe the fin issue was the result of a subsequent bacterial infection in the butterfly that may have passed to the mandarin. But really, I don't know what caused the fin issue. The white area I found on the mandarin's head was subcutaneous, not a surface affliction. It looked as though he'd be rubbing his head or if the colour had simply disappeared from his head (apparently this can happening when they are sick/dying). Other than my blenny looking a bit itchy, there is nothing to suggest that there is actually velvet in my tank.

I did a big water change last night and found this morning that many of the blenny's symptoms of whatever it is have gone away. Both the goby and blenny seem fine.

I am confused as to what happened (besides the ich) and if it is still happening. I don't want to go and through my fish into QT and start medicating them without knowing what it is that I am supposed to be treating.

[fishoholic]

I am in the same boat and lost 10 fish in a week already... Once they stopped eating they died the next day. However three died in quarantine from what I think was a chemical reaction when using dechlorinator in water with a copper treatment. I didnt know of this as there are no warnings on copper product or the dechlorinator. If you are using tap water, just let the water sit for 24 hours to leach out the chlorine(wont get rid of chloramines however if your area has them in the water). I say get em out asap, its just not worth losing new additions to the tank. I cant believe I have to go 2 months without a single fish in the tank.... crazy

I don't know about regular dechlorinator but you can use Prime and tap water with copper treatment no problem. The main issue I had in QT was doing massive water changes to keep the amonia from spiking. I had set up a 110g QT when I treated all my fish and I did 50g water changes every other day. Went though massive amounts of prime and salt but I didn't have and spikes in my water perameters.

[apex82]

what.... You used prime and coppersafe? cupramine? Everywhere I have read is that it reduces copper 2 to lethal copper 1. You mixed prime and tapwater and added to copper treated tank within 10 minutes and you never had any issues?

I definately think it was the prime + coppersafe combo that killed my fish in quarantine, as some of them were more of the healthy specimens. I dont know for sure but I probably overdosed prime and since it was rapid set up there was no ammonia to reduce so it reduced the copper to 1 killing my fish overnight... Maybe if you only add the exact amount or a bit less it might be fine? I definitely will never do it again, to risky.

Here is the link for the response from seachem.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1373316

Here is a Q/A taken from seachem website... This stuff should be stickied imo!

Q: I've been dosing with Cupramine™ and then I added Product X and everything died. What happened? A: If Product X is a reducing agent such as ParaGuard™ (or other aldehyde based medications), or if you overdose with a dechlorinator, such as Prime® then the Cu+2 will be reduced to Cu+. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.


Okay....I am going to attempt to clear up the confusion. I would like to first point out the fact that we are the only manufacturer that gets on these forums and attempts to help people understand these issues better. So, hopefully hobbyists can appreciate that and realize how unique it really is.
The real reason we tell people not to use reducing agents with copper is for liability reasons. THERE IS POTENTIAL FOR REDUCING AGENTS TO REDUCE CU+2 TO Cu+1 WHICH IS 10X MORE TOXIC TO FISH. Does this necessarily mean it is going to happen? The answer is no. Of course, we would like to cover ourselves and protect hobbyists from this possibility so we tell people not to do it when they ask. Under certain circumstances, this could happen. It, however, is dependent upon a number of factors. A reducing agent will reduce whatever is available for it to reduce. So, if you put a reducing agent in your water to reduce ammonia, but there is no ammonia, it will find something else to reduce (such as oxygen or copper). Since most water conditioners on the market are reducing agents, they all have this potential. Many people like to overdose with water conditioners (especially Prime) and this can increase the chances of the copper being reduced to a more toxic form. The reason we, and all other manufacturers, do not put this on the label is because it is an extremely rare event that may not even happen. If we were to put on the bottle "do not use Prime with this product", then that says to the average consumer that everything else is okay to use with it (which is clearly not the case). Now consider the other option: If we were to list all of the other reducing agents out there that should not be used with Cupramine, we would have a label that was a mile long. Not to mention that fact that this would require us to know exactly what other products have in them. Not exactly the easiest thing to do. So, what we do instead is encourage people to ask questions before medicating and make ourselves (as I hope you can see) readily available to you so that you can get those questions answered in a timely manner. Just like Pescadero has done, all hobbyists should research and ask appropriate questions before starting any treatment.

[fishoholic]

Hummm did not know that. I used prime (lots of it) when I treated my fish with cupramine, as far as I know it did not cause any issues, I did check copper levels every day with a test kit and they all read at the level they were supposed to be at. I had a lot of bubbliers running at the time, maybe that helped :noidea:

[daniella3d]

Interesting. When you use Prime with cupramine it is said to bind with the amines in Cupramine and release the copper back into a toxic form. I guess you were lucky that it did not cause any harm to your fish then.


Hummm did not know that. I used prime (lots of it) when I treated my fish with cupramine, as far as I know it did not cause any issues, I did check copper levels every day with a test kit and they all read at the level they were supposed to be at. I had a lot of bubbliers running at the time, maybe that helped :noidea: