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BlueTang<3
10-03-2010, 10:12 PM
Looking at getting a 24" fixture for my frag tank. Anyone out there have one looking at getting user reviews on quality and how corals are reacting.

monocus
10-04-2010, 06:29 AM
i am hoping to pick my 5' next week-i'll be playing around with my par meter and i'll see about posting the readings

Wanderer
10-04-2010, 04:26 PM
I know that J&L had to raise their Illumina that they placed over their frag tank by a few inches and decrease the LEDs output to ~60% when they replaced the Halide unit that was there beforehand. Apparently it was to much light for some of the corals.

without optics on the LEDs, the spread of light is significantly more uniform.

Ron99
10-04-2010, 04:34 PM
without optics on the LEDs, the spread of light is significantly more uniform.

Sorry, have to disagree with that statement. With all the LEDs down the center output will be less uniform. You will have higher PAR directly below the LEDs and it will drop off front to back. Just because the primary optics have 120 degree spread does not actually mean that the output from an emitter is the same across the whole 120 degrees. There is a drop off in output off center from the emitter.

Wanderer
10-04-2010, 04:38 PM
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=66180&page=4



Below is the non scientific Vertex Illumina SR 1200-200 PAR measurement taken with a Apogee Quantum Meter. My tank is 18" tall and the fixture is 6" above the surface.


White 100% - Blue 100% - Royal Blue 100%

759 about 5mm below the surface

484 On left frag rack

392 At top right coral colony

242 Center of Red Monti

227 Center of Clam

185 Front Elegance Coral

214 Bottom right middel of tank

148 Bottom rear of tank

Wanderer
10-04-2010, 04:48 PM
Sorry, have to disagree with that statement. With all the LEDs down the center output will be less uniform. You will have higher PAR directly below the LEDs and it will drop off front to back. Just because the primary optics have 120 degree spread does not actually mean that the output from an emitter is the same across the whole 120 degrees. There is a drop off in output off center from the emitter.

You are entitled to your opinion, I disagree with yours... thats usually the way these things work :smile:

I'm a fan of the Illumina's other benefits like Easy expandability, control elements, smart design. Given the modularity of the LED pads, who says you won't be able to add optics if thats what you believe in?

It's just nice to see a smart design with an eye on the future.

as far as the price ... you don't get a Mercedes for the same price as a Kia

Skimmerking
10-04-2010, 05:05 PM
Sorry, have to disagree with that statement. With all the LEDs down the center output will be less uniform. You will have higher PAR directly below the LEDs and it will drop off front to back. Just because the primary optics have 120 degree spread does not actually mean that the output from an emitter is the same across the whole 120 degrees. There is a drop off in output off center from the emitter.

Well Ron i love yoru light and would like to get the break down on where to get the stuff i would love to make one of these lights too for my 60" tank or will a 48" light work?
on a 60" tank
48" work?
How many LED's
what type pf optic's
Color how many blues
how many whites
what type of transformer?
what wire.

Ron99
10-04-2010, 06:03 PM
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=66180&page=4



Below is the non scientific Vertex Illumina SR 1200-200 PAR measurement taken with a Apogee Quantum Meter. My tank is 18" tall and the fixture is 6" above the surface.


White 100% - Blue 100% - Royal Blue 100%

759 about 5mm below the surface

484 On left frag rack

392 At top right coral colony

242 Center of Red Monti

227 Center of Clam

185 Front Elegance Coral

214 Bottom right middel of tank

148 Bottom rear of tank

Yes, saw this and as I mentioned in that thread I'm not overly impressed. Sorry. I achieve higher PAR numbers, especially deeper down into the tank using 60% fewer LEDS and therefore lower power consumption as well. My lighting is also far more even where I would have about the same PAR in the bottom middle of my tank as I will in the bottom front or back. He has 30% less PAR at the front of the tank then he does at the middle.

You are entitled to your opinion, I disagree with yours... thats usually the way these things work :smile:

I'm a fan of the Illumina's other benefits like Easy expandability, control elements, smart design. Given the modularity of the LED pads, who says you won't be able to add optics if thats what you believe in?

It's just nice to see a smart design with an eye on the future.

as far as the price ... you don't get a Mercedes for the same price as a Kia

It's not an opinion, it's science. Here's a nice post on reefbuilders explaining it:

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/27/led-optics-explained/

I'll quote the important bit of it:

"But just because an LED is rated at 120 degrees, it doesn’t mean you get the lighting punch of the LED across the entire spectrum. Just like any other point of light source, it’s going to be stronger the closer you travel to the center. Along the central axis the LED emits 100 percent of its relative luminous intensity and will lose intensity the farther you move away from the central axis.

For simplicity’s sake, if a 100 lumen will produce 100 lumens of light at the center and a measurement taken 25 degrees from its central axis, the output of the LED will appear to drop to only 80 lumens. Continuing on the path away from the center axis a measurement taken 45 degrees off axis will yield only 40 lumens, and so on, until at 60 degrees, only 10 lumens or so are emitted."

Also, to add secondary optics they would have to completely redesign the fixture as the emitters would have to be spread out over the entire face of the fixture rather then clustered or you just compound the problem and you would have even higher intensity down the middle and even more drop off front to back. Simply adding secondary optics to this design is not the solution, it would compound the problem. I guess I just don't see it as a "smart" design. It could have used fewer LEDs, reducing the cost, being more energy efficient and likely had higher performance to boot.

It also has nothing to do with Mercedes vs. Kia. I am sure it is a well built unit and it does have some nice features but performance wise I can't justify the price. Would you buy a Mercedes that drove and performed no better then a Kia? I know I wouldn't. I would want a better feel, better acceleration, handling, ride, reliability, build quality etc. to justify the price premium.

Well Ron i love yoru light and would like to get the break down on where to get the stuff i would love to make one of these lights too for my 60" tank or will a 48" light work?
on a 60" tank
48" work?
How many LED's
what type pf optic's
Color how many blues
how many whites
what type of transformer?
what wire.

Don't want to hijack this thread away from the discussion of the Illumina fixture. Many of those details are in my build thread so check it out there. or PM me or start a new thread and we can discuss it there.

Wanderer
10-04-2010, 07:12 PM
Ron, we get it. You hate the light. Your light is God’s gift to the aquarium world. Hurry and release it already :rolleyes:

Ron99
10-04-2010, 08:06 PM
Ahh, a well reasoned and argued response. Great to see :razz:

I was planning a product but given time constraints right now the project is on hold for the moment.

In any case, I don't hate the fixture, I just question the cost vs. performance equation. The whole point of these forums and this type of thread is to discuss the pros and cons of the equipment. The OP asked for feeback or opinions and I gave mine. In any case, I've put in my 2 cents backed by my own experience and research. If you've built and tested LED arrays or tested the Vertex fixture yourself then I'll be happy to accept your results too. I will also happily test a Vertex fixture in a more controlled fashion if somebody has one handy. In any case, I'll stop it here for now.

Wanderer
10-04-2010, 08:28 PM
#44
08-31-2010, 05:58 PM
TheDogFather
Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ajax, Ontario
Posts: 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron99
Any updates or more then and now photos? Personally, I'm not super impressed with the PAR readings you showed so far. For optimal growth of SPS you want between 400 and 500 PAR. My DIY LED array achieves that in the middle level of the tank (10 inches down my 20 inch deep 75 gallon) at less then full power with the array 6 inches above the water. If I turn it all the way up and lower to 3 to 4 inches above the water I get way more. I get well over 250 PAr at the sand bed 18 or 19 inches below the water surface.

Your clam may do alright but as I understand it clams need 250 to 300 PAR (I may be wrong on that but it's the number I recall).




That's nice Ron99 but this is not a contest and what makes you think you need between 400-500 PAR to grow stony corals well? My SPS and clams say otherwise.

I'm not going to get into a PAR contest with your DIY fixture, I get excellent growth (at 50% power I might add) and my clams are growing very well. The 48" Vertex Illumina LED comes very close in PAR output to my previous fixture, ATI PowerModule with 8x54W T5's and that fixture is no slouch.

I'm guessing your DIY uses optics to achieve higher PAR values but at the cost of spread so you'll have to hang it high to get decent coverage thereby negating all that extra PAR...

-TDF

"Stoney corals appear to photosaturate between 400 and 500 PAR so having 700 or 1000 PAR is probably pointless other than for bragging rights. I doubt it will do the corals much good." -Ron99




could not have said it better myself

Ron99
10-04-2010, 09:32 PM
What are you trying to get at? You conveniently do not post my well reasoned and informed response to the above post you quoted. Looks like you are trying to make this some form of personal attack against me instead of discussing the merits of the light itself. Go back and read my response to the above in that thread.

Putting on my Machiavellian hat I would say that as a newbie with very few posts and with your apparent blind support of this fixture that you work for Vertex? If you want to discuss the pros and cons of the technology in a civil and reasonable fashion I'm all for it but you are derailing this thread by trying to make me look bad in some way, taking posts from other threads out of context and not posting any information of substance.

I would suggest you contribute in a positive fashion or at least in a constructive debate as I am trying to do or refrain from posting please as this is not doing the OP or the board any good.

Skimmerking
10-05-2010, 12:11 AM
#44
08-31-2010, 05:58 PM
TheDogFather
Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ajax, Ontario
Posts: 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron99
Any updates or more then and now photos? Personally, I'm not super impressed with the PAR readings you showed so far. For optimal growth of SPS you want between 400 and 500 PAR. My DIY LED array achieves that in the middle level of the tank (10 inches down my 20 inch deep 75 gallon) at less then full power with the array 6 inches above the water. If I turn it all the way up and lower to 3 to 4 inches above the water I get way more. I get well over 250 PAr at the sand bed 18 or 19 inches below the water surface.

Your clam may do alright but as I understand it clams need 250 to 300 PAR (I may be wrong on that but it's the number I recall).




That's nice Ron99 but this is not a contest and what makes you think you need between 400-500 PAR to grow stony corals well? My SPS and clams say otherwise.

I'm not going to get into a PAR contest with your DIY fixture, I get excellent growth (at 50% power I might add) and my clams are growing very well. The 48" Vertex Illumina LED comes very close in PAR output to my previous fixture, ATI PowerModule with 8x54W T5's and that fixture is no slouch.

I'm guessing your DIY uses optics to achieve higher PAR values but at the cost of spread so you'll have to hang it high to get decent coverage thereby negating all that extra PAR...

-TDF

"Stoney corals appear to photosaturate between 400 and 500 PAR so having 700 or 1000 PAR is probably pointless other than for bragging rights. I doubt it will do the corals much good." -Ron99




could not have said it better myself

Hey buds have a little respect for others on this board you can't come on here and start flapping at people .
Its noce that you have a light fro, Vertex. great ,HOWEVER some one gave you an OPININ OF theirs you can't take that away. If I tell you that your light sucks well fire your input back. But If I tell you that In my opinion that your light suck and give you a example based on another project well great leave it at that .

Just remember that people are allow to think what they want. and if they think that you are an idiot Well that is them thinking out loud!!!!!!.

However im not saying that Im just thinking it. at the end of the day people will have different opinions on lights brand names. So we will always have a debate on lights and other equipment .

BlueTang<3
10-05-2010, 12:21 AM
Thanks Ron i have been on the fence between vertex and aqua illuminations for some time. The finish and controller and software on the vertex is mind blowing vs what comes with the aqua illumination for now. The aqua illumination says on reef central that there are a few issues with poor unsealed connectors on the light and a little sketchy on warranty. But seeing the vertex is not in the states who knows what its flaws are. It is interesting the differences in the lights optics no optics cree vs rebel diodes. I would almost be tempted to try 2 12" and compare them side by side but ...I am big on looks in a fixture and i like the vertex more but thats just looks. I have the other big ones Ati powermodule t5's Geiseman metal halides so i would like to try leds. It is some interesting pros and cons for optics vs no optics. One thing that i am worried about it the shadows that i have seen on reef central from lights with optics. An y line in that article “On shallower tanks, I’m a proponent of using straight LEDs without secondary optics,” he states. “I’ve found that achieving a sufficient amount of light for high-light corals is possible, there will be no flashlight effect, no spotting, and more uniformly colored shadows.” Being my rag tank is only 10" deep this is something that finds me leaning towards the Vertex. I want to thank you for taking the time to educate us on the different versions on leds i find it to be interesting. One this that worries me tho is the increase in technology so quick in this hobby ill buy a led and something new and better will come out.

albert_dao
10-05-2010, 02:28 AM
Hi,

Thought I'd chime in on this one:

The Vertex Illumina was designed from the ground-up as an open platform which will offer seamless integration into the soon-to-be-released Vertex Cerebra network. This network, the heart of which will be the Cerebra, will take the fundamentals of reef/aquarium equipment (eg. pumps, lighting, dosers, etc) and connect them all into one user-friendly, ever expanding network. This is something that no other lighting unit can offer. What exactly is all this 'fluff' you might ask? Well, off the top of my head, these are some of the developments currently under way:

- Fully synchronized tidal/photo cycles, as close as you will ever get to replicating the oceanic seasons in your living room. Moon cycles that run in tandem with surge cycles and beyond.
- Real-time weather simulation, not lighting, but current too. Imagine, with the advances in dosing pump and refrigeration technology, can you imagine increasing the amount of liquid food additives during a storm surge?
- Fully customizable color channel control to parallel the seasonal spectral shifts (this will become even more powerful with the release of the auxiliary modules, including RGB/UV-Cyan, etc).

These are features are very real and innovative options for the ultimate simulations. Pending some upcoming beta testing, they should be available nearing the end of this year/beginning of 2011.

As it stands, the Illumina has undergone nearly three years of R&D. There are no cheap parts or labour put into the product. The entire assembly was designed and assembled with the "buy it once, never look back" frame of mind and I have not had a single issue with any of the hundreds of fixtures that I have sold over the past few months. Every unit, every LED pad is hand tested.

Regarding the performance - the document leaked earlier this year was part of a much larger article which contains all the PAR and spectral data. This article is awaiting final drafts and editing prior to publishing.

@ Ron99

If someone from Vertex were to post here regarding this unit, you would know it (Hi).

Personally, I cannot engage into the debate of spectral efficacy as it is not a field of research to which I have applied myself. However, I am confident that, with the spectral testing being done and the impending publishing of the article being just around the corner, the Vertex Illumina will easily stand apart from the crowd in its ability both exceed the expectations and impress with its array of exclusive features.

I will refrain from making an analogy between this and the rather obvious car market. I think we're all a little more intelligent than that. I will however state that, having seen all the offerings from every manufacturer out there, this is by far the most unique and exclusive illumination offering from any manufacturer. There is no other lighting product out there as polished or feature-rich as the Illumina and this gap will only become larger as the Cerebra and auxiliary modules are released.

@ BlueTang<3

Check out TheDogFather's thread on RC for a more users. I cannot think of a single product I have dealt with over my entire experience within this industry that has left so many people feeling as PROUD of their investment as the Illumina. A particular example stands out in my head; one of the Canadian end-users actually called my office to tell me about how many different lighting products he had used, tested/experimented with over the years and wanted to thank me because he was ‘finally done with buying lights for his fish tank’. We’re not talking hodgepodge Chinese junk either – Aquatics, Geissman, Hamilton, Sunlight Supply, ATI, this guy probably spent more on lights in the past decade than I have spent on my car. To hear this statement from someone who was in that position of knowledge and authority has left me feeling brazenly confident about the capabilities of the Illumina.

Regarding the rapid 'leap frogging' that LED manufacturers seem to be doing with each other, the Illumina will be fully upgradable. The shell/haul of the light is completely modular and, should LED technology happen to surge forward in efficiency, easily be expanded to the current offerings and beyond. I should mention that all of this can be done without any prior experience or knowledge. No soldering, disassembly or internal parts replacement. Each pad is completely modular and can be removed by hand without the need for any tools.

Anyway, I’m getting off the soapbox now and will recede back into ‘lurker’ mode. Feel free to contact me if you have any additional questions regarding this or any other Vertex products.

BlueTang<3
10-05-2010, 02:54 AM
Is the new v stick compatible with mac? I see on glass box they are using it with a mac but a few reviews say it was not working.

frizzo1983
10-05-2010, 03:50 AM
Hey guys I bought my 6' Lumina when it first came out and have had no problems. Coral growth over the past 6-8 months has really shocked me, as I was a little bit of a skeptic at first to dish out 3800.00. The customer service has been awesome and even sent me V stick to try out, and if you like to tinker this is the light for you. In my opinion its a great light and will just keep getting better. If you have any questions drop me a line, or come on over and check it out.

albert_dao
10-05-2010, 04:26 AM
Is the new v stick compatible with mac? I see on glass box they are using it with a mac but a few reviews say it was not working.

Mac software is under developement. We should see its release before the end of the year.

Skimmerking
10-05-2010, 04:33 AM
That is great and all but 3500 for a light to light your tank is crazy. However if my light would do that then that is great would love it , they would probably sell more units if they wold lower the price, they want all the great advertising then lower the price and then you will get more people buying to rave about it. this light is geared toward the higher rich bank accounts and well if you can buy a 3700 light then you aren't really giving to craps about your tank. or have that much money to throw away. Just my opinion. but what do I know i'm just a middle class reefer.

albert_dao
10-05-2010, 05:25 AM
That is great and all but 3500 for a light to light your tank is crazy. However if my light would do that then that is great would love it , they would probably sell more units if they wold lower the price, they want all the great advertising then lower the price and then you will get more people buying to rave about it. this light is geared toward the higher rich bank accounts and well if you can buy a 3700 light then you aren't really giving to craps about your tank. or have that much money to throw away. Just my opinion. but what do I know i'm just a middle class reefer.

I disagree. During my time as a retailer, I found the same spectra of zeal and passion to be true amongst all the financial stratas.

Regarding the price - despite what some of us would insist - this thing cost an arm and a leg, no, many arms and many legs to develop. Not only that, the manufacturing and assembly are state of the art. Even the components are top notch (no expense has been spared, as in there are NO CHEAP/SHORTCUT COMPONENTS, NOT EVEN A SINGLE TRANSISTOR HAS BEEN BOUGHT AT BARGAIN) and highly regarded within industry. The thing is built to last and the intention is and has always been "buy with the confidence that you will NEVER worry about it ever again".

EDIT:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=546840&postcount=12

YOU, good sir, are HARDLY a middle-class reefer, lol.

BlueTang<3
10-05-2010, 12:56 PM
I agree with albert again the customer service provided by proline aquatics is outstanding. I am far from being a high end reefer just save up to get the nicest equipment so it is maintenance free and efficient. But i am going to take the plunge and order this light hope it works out. I will keep everyone updated on it so if u wanna cut me a deal feel free to albert. :biggrin:

Ron99
10-05-2010, 04:23 PM
Thanks Ron i have been on the fence between vertex and aqua illuminations for some time. The finish and controller and software on the vertex is mind blowing vs what comes with the aqua illumination for now. The aqua illumination says on reef central that there are a few issues with poor unsealed connectors on the light and a little sketchy on warranty. But seeing the vertex is not in the states who knows what its flaws are. It is interesting the differences in the lights optics no optics cree vs rebel diodes. I would almost be tempted to try 2 12" and compare them side by side but ...I am big on looks in a fixture and i like the vertex more but thats just looks. I have the other big ones Ati powermodule t5's Geiseman metal halides so i would like to try leds. It is some interesting pros and cons for optics vs no optics. One thing that i am worried about it the shadows that i have seen on reef central from lights with optics. An y line in that article “On shallower tanks, I’m a proponent of using straight LEDs without secondary optics,” he states. “I’ve found that achieving a sufficient amount of light for high-light corals is possible, there will be no flashlight effect, no spotting, and more uniformly colored shadows.” Being my rag tank is only 10" deep this is something that finds me leaning towards the Vertex. I want to thank you for taking the time to educate us on the different versions on leds i find it to be interesting. One this that worries me tho is the increase in technology so quick in this hobby ill buy a led and something new and better will come out.

No worries. There are alot of misconceptions out there and we are still learning as this technology is new to our hobby (although not really new technology in other applications). yes, the article is correct that you can achieve good results without secondary optics on shallower tanks. For good PAR at depth you either need a ton more LEDs or to use optics. I have not noticed any spotlight effects in the tank with my array. It comes down to how it is set up. If I hold my hand under it just above the water then I can see a spotlight effect on my hand but everything blends well by 1 or 2 inches down into the water and since I have nothing that high up in the tank there is no spotlighting. That is pretty much a non-issue if the array is properly thought out.

As for advances in the technology that is going to happen no matter when you buy in. LED development is following what they call Haitz's Law (the LED equivalent of Moore's law for semiconductors) and LED lumen output has been doubling every 18 to 24 months with costs coming down as well. They figure that will not slow down any time soon.



Hi,

Thought I'd chime in on this one:

The Vertex Illumina was designed from the ground-up as an open platform which will offer seamless integration into the soon-to-be-released Vertex Cerebra network. This network, the heart of which will be the Cerebra, will take the fundamentals of reef/aquarium equipment (eg. pumps, lighting, dosers, etc) and connect them all into one user-friendly, ever expanding network. This is something that no other lighting unit can offer. What exactly is all this 'fluff' you might ask? Well, off the top of my head, these are some of the developments currently under way:

- Fully synchronized tidal/photo cycles, as close as you will ever get to replicating the oceanic seasons in your living room. Moon cycles that run in tandem with surge cycles and beyond.
- Real-time weather simulation, not lighting, but current too. Imagine, with the advances in dosing pump and refrigeration technology, can you imagine increasing the amount of liquid food additives during a storm surge?
- Fully customizable color channel control to parallel the seasonal spectral shifts (this will become even more powerful with the release of the auxiliary modules, including RGB/UV-Cyan, etc).

These are features are very real and innovative options for the ultimate simulations. Pending some upcoming beta testing, they should be available nearing the end of this year/beginning of 2011.

As it stands, the Illumina has undergone nearly three years of R&D. There are no cheap parts or labour put into the product. The entire assembly was designed and assembled with the "buy it once, never look back" frame of mind and I have not had a single issue with any of the hundreds of fixtures that I have sold over the past few months. Every unit, every LED pad is hand tested.

Regarding the performance - the document leaked earlier this year was part of a much larger article which contains all the PAR and spectral data. This article is awaiting final drafts and editing prior to publishing.

@ Ron99

If someone from Vertex were to post here regarding this unit, you would know it (Hi).

Personally, I cannot engage into the debate of spectral efficacy as it is not a field of research to which I have applied myself. However, I am confident that, with the spectral testing being done and the impending publishing of the article being just around the corner, the Vertex Illumina will easily stand apart from the crowd in its ability both exceed the expectations and impress with its array of exclusive features.

I will refrain from making an analogy between this and the rather obvious car market. I think we're all a little more intelligent than that. I will however state that, having seen all the offerings from every manufacturer out there, this is by far the most unique and exclusive illumination offering from any manufacturer. There is no other lighting product out there as polished or feature-rich as the Illumina and this gap will only become larger as the Cerebra and auxiliary modules are released.


Hi Albert. I know I sound totally down on this unit but that's not the case. I am sure it is extremely well built with high quality components. For the record, the Luxeon Rebel LEDs are excellent emitters. Your software features are also very comprehensive (although personally I would probably never use things like weather effects and cloud cover etc.). It's great to see the technology gaining a foothold and companies trying different things.

However, I stand by my position that the design choice in terms of LED configuration is an issue. I firmly believe that you could have achieved the same or better performance in terms of coverage and PAR output with more even coverage over a users tank using fewer emitters in a more spread out configuration. That would reduce the production costs somewhat, reduce the retail price for the end user thus increasing market penetration and also used less electricity thus making the unit "greener" and reducing your product's carbon footprint which is a big issue for many people these days. I think that these considerations would have made your unit an absolutely outstanding product instead of a somewhat compromised one that will not work as well for deeper tanks or ones that are wider front to back.

If you want to talk about reconfiguring things for Gen 2 let me know :biggrin:

Skimmerking
10-05-2010, 04:44 PM
But will a 48" fixture work on a 60" tank.

Wanderer
10-05-2010, 04:51 PM
What are you trying to get at? You conveniently do not post my well reasoned and informed response to the above post you quoted. Looks like you are trying to make this some form of personal attack against me instead of discussing the merits of the light itself. Go back and read my response to the above in that thread.

Putting on my Machiavellian hat I would say that as a newbie with very few posts and with your apparent blind support of this fixture that you work for Vertex? If you want to discuss the pros and cons of the technology in a civil and reasonable fashion I'm all for it but you are derailing this thread by trying to make me look bad in some way, taking posts from other threads out of context and not posting any information of substance.

I would suggest you contribute in a positive fashion or at least in a constructive debate as I am trying to do or refrain from posting please as this is not doing the OP or the board any good.

Sorry Ron, I didn't mean to come out guns blazing! I just have been lucky enough to play with an Illumina and was really impressed! it's hard to listen to someone bash a well put together product. So take off your tinfoil hat there buddy lol.

As for me being a newbie, I had an account here years ago, but it fell into disuse as I was abroad for over 5 years working in the industry (for some pictures, just look at my submissions for the picture of the month contest) so I'm back, and toying with the idea of another, bigger reef tank :D and I plan on being a contributing member here as best I can.

bhazard1
10-06-2010, 07:00 AM
I love my fixture. Had to deal with Albert at proline on a couple warranty issues (bummed out meanwell driver, vertex skimmer impeller) and I'm more than happy with their customer service! I figure over the 7-10 years the fixture should last I'll have recouped most of the cost of the fixture back due to no bulb replacements t5 and MH, and lower electrical consumption, plus now I don't "need" a chiller.

BlueTang<3
10-06-2010, 12:47 PM
done deal. bought and shipping in am.

all goes well it's here friday. :mrgreen:

Got a 24' Coming

Wanderer
10-06-2010, 04:40 PM
congrats!!!!

You must be VERY excited

Coleus
10-06-2010, 05:39 PM
Really want the light but at $4200 for 72 inch. Too much for me! :-(

StirCrazy
10-06-2010, 06:15 PM
thatnks, I got a good laugh out of this thread, goes from asking for opinions, some are given then turns to personal attack cuz people didn't agree with the opinion given.

it is natural for people to defend there purchases and remember no mater what we buy there will always be some one who has something better or some one who doesn't like if for other reasons..

I have been playing with LEDs over tanks for about 8 years now, granted mostly for lighting tanks with out corals or for moonlight or effect purposes using old 5mm LEDs . now in the last year I have gotten back into it and learned a ton more as over the last 5 years there have been significant advances in LEDs and ways of controling them.

Ron has very valid points, and from personal experiance with PAR readings and SPS growth I would not set up another SPS tank unless I can obtain about 300 PAR on the bottom of the tank, with between 500 to 700 PAR towards the top.

my reasoning for this is as follows. 10 years ago there was no info on lighting and I started off with VHO's and overdriven NO's and a LUX meter, then went to PCs and bought a PAR meter. SPS grew, and yes they will grow under NO's if set up properly, but very slowly and will mostly be brown.

then I switched to a VHO/PC system and got a bit more growth and a tiny bit of color. soon I added a 175 watt MH and again more growth and more color. after about 4 months of reading boaring articles on light and growth, I designed my own system with 250 watt MH, HQI ballasts, and home made reflectors, this jumped my PAR up to about 800 just below the surface and about 350 at the bottom of a 24" tank. coral growth took off to the point where I contenplated lowering the light levels, but didn't.. the result was colors like I had never experianced, One brown Acro I was given, and I named "butt ugly" turned into a stunning deep purple and was my faviorate coral. my millies were growing over a CM/month in dia, and soon space was becomming an issue. All water peramiters and feeding remained the same through out so the only varable was the light.

I do not agree with people saying over 1000PAR will inhibit growth for one simple reason, a coral reef in the sun gets way more than that for at least 6 hours of the day I do agree that they will use so much light then stop for the day, I concluded this as I was running my MH for 6 hours a day then upped it to 8 and coral growth increased, then I upped it to 10 and another increase, but at 12 hours there was no increase over 10 hours so I went back to 10 hours.

now as for the vertex fixture, ya they are neat, good quality LEDs, and a tone of features for the price, but they are designed to be "cool" looking and small. because of the way the did there thermal managment there is a trade of being a single strip of LEDs. so what you get as was stated is a row of light, now by not using optics this will alow the spread to light the whole tank but it will be most intense with in about 25 degrees of the verticle axis. what I would liek to see is ass on moduals to turn it into 3 strips that are spaced out so say another light strip with a heat sink that extens on only one side that can be attached to the edge of the main heat sink. so you add one on each side and overall PAR will be more even and increased.

If you have the ability you can always build a better fixture than you can buy preformance wise, but making it pretty takes conciderable skill and money, so if it is the look your after and willing to trade a bit on preformance then the vertex is a very good option especialy when the price is brought in. if your fixture is going to be hidden and you have the skills to solder, tap, ect.. then building a setup for the same money will give you better overall power, but you trade on looks..

so it is a personal choice and that always means that some one will be defending there choice, but lets try to keep it with out sarcasm and personal attacks, just say why you made your choice and don't let others opinions get to you.

Steve

Skimmerking
10-06-2010, 06:42 PM
I just noticed that Albert you Jack :lol:I disagree. During my time as a retailer, I found the same spectra of zeal and passion to be true amongst all the financial stratas.

Regarding the price - despite what some of us would insist - this thing cost an arm and a leg, no, many arms and many legs to develop. Not only that, the manufacturing and assembly are state of the art. Even the components are top notch (no expense has been spared, as in there are NO CHEAP/SHORTCUT COMPONENTS, NOT EVEN A SINGLE TRANSISTOR HAS BEEN BOUGHT AT BARGAIN) and highly regarded within industry. The thing is built to last and the intention is and has always been "buy with the confidence that you will NEVER worry about it ever again".

EDIT:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=546840&postcount=12

YOU, good sir, are HARDLY a middle-class reefer, lol.

Ron99
10-06-2010, 10:15 PM
Well put Steve. Good analysis. However, I think looks and performance can go hand in hand. I have a design for a unit in mind which would look really sharp and perform really well. Just don't have the time and capital to do it right now :(


BlueTang<3, looking forward to your review and hopefully PAR measurements too.

StirCrazy
10-06-2010, 11:00 PM
. However, I think looks and performance can go hand in hand. .

ahh, I never said thoes two couldn't go togeather, but add cost to the mix... if you get looks and preformance it isn't going to be cheep as it takes conciderably more work and effort to combine thoes two.

Steve

Ron99
10-06-2010, 11:23 PM
ahh, I never said thoes two couldn't go togeather, but add cost to the mix... if you get looks and preformance it isn't going to be cheep as it takes conciderably more work and effort to combine thoes two.

Steve

Or a clever design :wink: