PDA

View Full Version : pH too low questions...


Milad
07-14-2010, 08:16 PM
So my pH seems to be low as some people have pointed out. I use RO/DI water and im guessing that is contributing to it being low.

I just went out and bought some reef buffer and KH test kit.

From my understanding i can get it to 8.3 with this stuff. But i dont want to be always dosing this if there is an underlying problem.

Am I missing something? I have alot of surface water agitation (two tunze 6105s pointed upwards so they are making some nice waves). I also heard i need to put air into the water but doesnt my skimmer do that?

Is this just a step i should be taking to get it to > 8 and it should hold itself?

I feel like im missing something... Someone in vancouver needs to come check out my system and make sure i havent done something stupid!

PoonTang
07-14-2010, 08:29 PM
did you calibrate your probe using both ph7 and 10 solutions?
are you running a ca reactor?
what is your Alk at?

Milad
07-14-2010, 08:44 PM
I didnt calibrate my probe but it was new in a box with a end that had fluid in it already and the instructions didnt say anything about calibrating it, just said never let it out of water.

Im not running CA reactor yet (almost got it ready to put in though)

I just bought alk test kit so ill test tonight and see whats up.

untamed
07-14-2010, 09:17 PM
You need to calibrate that pH probe before you do anything based upon what it says.

In addition, I think your plan to move your pH upward is dangerous. The additive you are looking at will alter your Ca/Alk balance by raising Alk. That is something that can cause a lot more problems than low pH.

Given you aren't running your Ca reactor yet, I suspect that you don't have a seriously low pH problem anyway.

Milad
07-14-2010, 09:29 PM
well the calc reactor was about to go in this weekend but i heard they lower the ph because of all the co2 you gota pump into them. now im going to have to put that on the back burner.

Megalodon
07-14-2010, 09:29 PM
If your kH and calcium balance is OK, I wouldn't worry as much about pH, as it really comes down to CO2 at that point. CO2 levels go up at night and thus the pH falls. I also noticed the deeper I place the pH probe, the lower the pH is, so keep that in mind.

As for using that buffer, it's not the best idea to use it until you know your alk and calcium levels. To a lesser extent also magnesium.

Since you're putting the calcium reactor on hold, instead of that pH buffer, I would actually recommend to you a two-part. Kent makes a decent one IMO. There's part A and part B, both in liquid forms, added to different parts of the tank, or at different times, always in equal amounts.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/k-tcba064/Kent+Marine+Tech-CB+Calcium+Buffer+%28Part+A%29+Additive+-+64+oz..html

If low pH is still a concern, you could also drip limewater (kalk) at night and/or have a reverse lighting refuge with algae.

Milad
07-14-2010, 09:34 PM
did you calibrate your probe using both ph7 and 10 solutions?
are you running a ca reactor?
what is your Alk at?

If your kH and calcium balance is OK, I wouldn't worry as much about pH, as it really comes down to CO2 at that point. CO2 levels go up at night and thus the pH falls. I also noticed the deeper I place the pH probe, the lower the pH is, so keep that in mind.

As for using that buffer, it's not the best idea to use it until you know your alk and calcium levels. To a lesser extent also magnesium.

Since you're putting the calcium reactor on hold, instead of that pH buffer, I would actually recommend to you a two-part. Kent makes a decent one IMO. There's part A and part B, both in liquid forms, added to different parts of the tank, or at different times, always in equal amounts. You could also consider dripping lime at night.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/product/k-tcba064/Kent+Marine+Tech-CB+Calcium+Buffer+%28Part+A%29+Additive+-+64+oz..html

ill go return the ph buffer and try this two part and see what happens.

PoonTang
07-14-2010, 09:49 PM
Yes i would suspect that it is just a calibration issue. Also how heavy is your sps load? you may not even need a Calcium reactor. You may want to concider dosing Kakwasser or 2 Part. If you go the Calcium reactor route you will want to get a second PH probe for your Apex.

Megalodon
07-14-2010, 09:50 PM
ill go return the ph buffer and try this two part and see what happens.Cool, and then focus on maintaining your alk/calcium balance, so get a calcium test kit too.

Milad
07-14-2010, 09:54 PM
Yes i would suspect that it is just a calibration issue. Also how heavy is your sps load? you may not even need a Calcium reactor. You may want to concider dosing Kakwasser or 2 Part. If you go the Calcium reactor route you will want to get a second PH probe for your Apex.


I Already have calc reactor and ph probe on it so its ready to go, just need to get a refill on cylinder and new solenoid.

my sps load isnt really heavy i dont think, one big (8" round) birds nest and a hand full of frags, maybe 5 or so.

PoonTang
07-14-2010, 09:57 PM
Technically you could hold off on the reactor for now if you want. Those corals wont suck that much Ca out of 180G of water. Your regular water changes should look after it no problem and you can always "tweek" the levels as necessary with 2 part.

whatcaneyedo
07-14-2010, 09:58 PM
Here is some homework reading if you're interested is some better understanding of the relationship between CO2, Alkalinity and pH.

Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

Milad
07-15-2010, 01:01 AM
just tested my alk its just over 6dkh

Milad
07-15-2010, 02:12 AM
well that was easy
i put in 40ml of B into DT and 40ml of A into sump
now the ph is 8.16!! woot
i was going to do 40ml for next 4 days but maybe ill stop after the pH hits 8.25ish

bvlester
07-15-2010, 08:32 AM
If your PH is 8 you are OK I found that my fish did not like it when my PH went down to 7.8 or lower I do use kalk KH buffer with mag in it to get extra CA in the tank and to raise the PH to between 8.1 and 8.2. I do not use reef buffer as it has to many things in it from what I've heard. I don't trust a product that does not list he ingredients on the label.

Bill

SeaHorse_Fanatic
07-15-2010, 09:28 AM
Remember to raise or lower levels gradually (too big a sudden change is usually a bad thing in reefing). When messing with water chemistry, raising one element usually affects other elements, so don't go overboard with sudden changes.

Milad
07-16-2010, 01:45 AM
Well I came home to about 8.07 PH and I dunno if its just me but the tank seemed more "active". I guess the fish were a bit unhappy with the low ph?
Also the aenonmes are now "thickening" up.

untamed
07-16-2010, 10:19 PM
well that was easy
i put in 40ml of B into DT and 40ml of A into sump
now the ph is 8.16!! woot
i was going to do 40ml for next 4 days but maybe ill stop after the pH hits 8.25ish

You are only seeing pH move as a side effect of what you are doing to Alk...and likely the particular timing of WHEN you read the pH.

It seems like you are adding A/B based on pH measurement, when you should be adding A/B ONLY based on what you are measuring for Ca/Alk.

When you have your Ca/Alk rock stable...THEN you can start thinking about ways to manipulate your pH. Until that point, you should not be concerned about what your pH appears to be.

Milad
07-16-2010, 11:41 PM
You are only seeing pH move as a side effect of what you are doing to Alk...and likely the particular timing of WHEN you read the pH.

It seems like you are adding A/B based on pH measurement, when you should be adding A/B ONLY based on what you are measuring for Ca/Alk.

When you have your Ca/Alk rock stable...THEN you can start thinking about ways to manipulate your pH. Until that point, you should not be concerned about what your pH appears to be.

yup thats what i did (sorta) i was trying to raise my DKH which I have done now i believe. But i did also dose the Ca but forgot to buy a test kit to test what it was! doh.

Albertan22
07-17-2010, 12:03 AM
Try opening your windows if you don't already. Low pH in aquariums is often a problem when CO2 levels in a house get high. CO2 is acidic, and often some fresh air fixes the problem right up. I have this happen every winter, but it could be a problem for people with air conditioning who don't open up their house every now and then.

Myka
07-17-2010, 06:02 AM
Imo, you are concentrating on pH way too much, and calcium and alkalinity not enough. You need a calcium kit as well. Provided the calcium and alkalinity levels are already balanced you will use equal parts of Kent Tech A & B. If they are out of balance you will balance it by using only one of the parts (A is calcium and B is alkalinity if I remember correctly).


Balanced Calcium and Alkalinity: (as per Randy Holmes-Farley)

360 ppm to 0 dKH
370 ppm to 1.4 dKH
380 ppm to 2.8 dKH
390 ppm to 4.2 dKH
400 ppm to 5.6 dKH
410 ppm to 7 dKH (natural seawater)
420 ppm to 8.4 dKH
430 ppm to 9.8 dKH
440 ppm to 11.2 dKH
450 ppm to 12.6 dKH
460 ppm to 14 dKH

In addition to what everyone else has said, your tank is brand spanky new if I remember correctly. Was the live rock cured or uncured? Did it have much of a cycle? The more nutrients that are allowed to break down in the tank and go through the nitrogen cycle the lower the pH will be. This is why we use such things as protein skimmers to remove dissolved organics before they can be processed by the nitrogen cycle. "Dirty" tanks will generally also have a lower pH because of such a large amount of organics breaking down.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the low pH right now. Worry about keeping your tank clean, keep detritus from settling, provide fresh outside air to your house (open a window at night), make sure your skimmer is of suitable size and quality for your tank, keep skimmer clean and skimming wet instead of dry, keep calcium, alkalinity and magnesium within their balanced levels, etc. If everything else is in order pH will fall into place. I would strongly suggest a person not try to alter pH directly in a reef tank.

Milad
07-17-2010, 06:18 AM
the tank I got from another reefer (kaliforina) and i set it up in early April and let it cycle for 3 weeks wtih the live rock in it. The liverock came from MikeOlsen which had the rock in his tank for a few years. He had shut down his tank so the rock was in SW with no lights for ~5months. as far the the cycle, i dont think it was a big cycle, the ammonia went up a bit on my test kit (second bar) but it didnt go up much higher than that.

I usually open the door when I get home after work so im sure im getting alot of air into this place. I also have 3 celing fans running (one directly above the tank) in 600sqft so there is alot of air movement.

what test kits should i be buying? These 5 drops here and 5 drops there test kits are really annoying and hard to read (im using API).

on a side note, i thought one of my PH probes was broken because it was not in water for a long time but turns out after sitting in my tank for a few days it fixed itself!

Myka
07-17-2010, 06:55 AM
Elos kits are kinda pricey (depending what you compare to lol), but they are really easy to use and to read. Salifert kits are good too. API are pretty straight forward, but I would prefer a higher quality kit (their Mg kit is pretty good imo). Generally though, hobbyist grade kits are not overly accurate. Buy 3 kits from the same manufacturer, but from different batches, and you will get 3 different numbers from the same water sample. I have had kits vary by 100ppm (Ca), and 3 dKH. Annoying as "heck".

You hear people talk about "the big three" when it comes to testing which means Ca, Alk, and Mg. I think that Nitrate and Phosphate kits are also important, but don't need to be tested very often (kits will often expire before you use them up), so often I recommend people to just take a sample to their LFS for testing once a month or so.

I wouldn't be too worried about the pH for now as I suggested earlier, but I agree that you will need to calibrate your pH monitor before you trust it. Most will not be accurate out of the box. You will need pH 7 and pH 10 solutions to calibrate for alkaline pH as in our marine aquariums. Fyi, for freshwater aquariums that would be reading acidic pH you would use pH 4 and pH 7 solutions to calibrate. Personally, I like the single use pH calibration solutions offered by Milwaukee which should be available at any good retailer.

Milad
07-18-2010, 01:43 AM
Just tested my stuff

300ppm CA
8ish dKH
this is at 8.03PH

thoughts?

Myka
07-18-2010, 03:01 AM
You will need to raise the calcium by over 100 ppm. I suggest you do this by raising no more than 50 ppm per day. Please read the link in my signature for lots of information on calcium, alkalinity, pH, etc - it's a good starting point.

Megalodon
07-19-2010, 10:41 PM
Just tested my stuff

300ppm CA
8ish dKH
this is at 8.03PH

thoughts?My thoughts are low calcium, so either it's true and requires intervention, or, your test is bunk.

Milad
07-19-2010, 10:51 PM
My thoughts are low calcium, so either it's true and requires intervention, or, your test is bunk.

ill retest the calcium today
its annoying dropping 231423423423 drops and shaking between each one. someone needs to come up with a calcium probe or something, lol

Myka
07-20-2010, 02:47 AM
Pinpoint used to make a calcium probe, but from what I understand it had some issues either inaccurate, or burning out probes I'm not sure. I know they quit offering it because of the issues. I know using a probe to test calcium and particularly alkalinity isn't straight forward and either we don't have the technology to do it accurately and reliably or maybe it isn't overly possible. I don't know...either way it's not a viable option right now.

Megalodon
07-20-2010, 10:57 PM
I asked about them at JL's and the guy said that unlike the handy pH and salinity probes, the calcium one's a "toy" and the test kit is still the way to go in terms of accuracy, cost, and convenience.

Myka
07-20-2010, 11:10 PM
:lol: A $250 "toy"!!!

Milad
07-20-2010, 11:25 PM
so what you guys are saying is I should develop and build a calcium probe and sell it at $300 and then retire?

Myka
07-21-2010, 12:02 AM
Pretty much. Make a carbonate probe while you're at it. ;)

Milad
07-21-2010, 02:16 AM
ive been dosing here and there and its up to about 370 CA