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View Full Version : Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?


VFX
10-27-2009, 05:53 AM
Are you and/or family prepared to take the H1N1 vaccine?

With the US declaring a State of Emergency (paving the way for compulsory vaccination), the WHO escalating H1N1 to a level 6 global pandemic & the Canadian roll out, I'm interested to know what the general consensus is.

.

Ron99
10-27-2009, 06:03 AM
Yes, without a doubt. There is nothing magic about it as a vaccine. It is fairly standard and as safe as many other vaccines. The difficulty was that the virus was very slow to grow in culture so it took a while to manufacture enough for the vaccine. The only way to slow the spread of H1N1 is to vaccinate enough people that the virus peters out. If to many people don't get vaccinated it will give the virus many hosts through which it can spread which is not good. I believe that the epidemiologists are saying we need 70% of the population to be innoculated in order to slow the spread so do your part to help.

The whole debate reminds me of the ridiculous objections to the HPV vaccine for young girls. Why would you not want to innoculate your daughter against a virus that could one day give her cervical cancer?

marie
10-27-2009, 06:10 AM
I'll get it. It's just a flu shot :mrgreen:

untamed
10-27-2009, 06:12 AM
I probably won't. I have never got one in the past. I'm sure there is nothing sinister about the flu vaccine.

I'm pretty sure that more people will get the flu shot this year than previous years.

If I'm wrong, you have my permission to point at my tombstone and say "told you so...".

mark
10-27-2009, 06:55 AM
I haven't bought into the world is coming to the end with H1N1 bit but I've got no problem getting it.

Do like the conspiracy vote though, some people seem to believe there is one.

banditpowdercoat
10-27-2009, 07:12 AM
freakin SARS was a "pandemic" but truthfully, how many people killed world wide?? How many die from the regular flu world wide? How many from slipping in the shower?

I don't buy the media hype. Media is just what "they" want you to think!!!


So ya, I picked conspiracy


PS i think your right, more WILL get the flu shot this year, and how much does said flu shot cost? Someones planning to make ALOT of money I think, it's ALL marketing. Playing on our fears and the "well, what if they are telling the truth'? How are we supposed to know??


Side note, How many Zietgiest watchers/followers here???

Mr.nintendo
10-27-2009, 07:29 AM
It's all bull**** media hype, I'd rather risk "H1N1" then the known and occuring side effects from the shot

VFX
10-27-2009, 07:40 AM
Side note, How many Zietgiest watchers/followers here???

I like your voting style! I voted no instead of conspiracy, because although I think something is decided fishy about the whole thing, I can't really say for sure, who, what, where or why.

I'm all about the Zeitgeist! I also follow Project Camelot. Some great interviews there with various whistle blowers, ex-black ops guys etc. Even if you don't believe what they say, it's great entertainment for those interested in conspiracy/Illuminati/2012/UFO's etc.

Link to H1N1 Conspiracy Interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PelTWCUmTsU)

Some resources for people wanting more info:

BBC News Swine Flu Info & News Page (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/world/2009/swine_flu/default.stm)

Government of Canada, Public Health Agency Website (http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/alert-alerte/h1n1/index-eng.php)

Official UK Government Swine Flu Information Pages (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Swineflu/DG_177831)

The Flu Case - Jane Burgermeister's investigation into the swine flu vaccine, bird flu and the real reasons for mass vaccinations. (www.theflucase.com)

...and finally a website for the Conspiracy Theorists. (http://www.swinefluconspiracy.com/)

Whatever you decide, please be safe!

.

Sebae again
10-27-2009, 07:51 AM
Seeking approval after manufacture,changing dates on vials due to expire Hmmm.

Quinster
10-27-2009, 12:30 PM
Should you or shouldn't you...be your own judge!

I took care of 2 patients in Winnipeg who had similar side affects to this due to flu inoculations. They told me about half a dozen deaths locally they knew about from the same batch of meds that were used.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9mh9f_swine-flu-1976-propaganda_webcam

Snaz
10-27-2009, 01:55 PM
I have never had a flu vaccination before but I will get this one. Why? Because I will not risk getting sick and passing it onto my kids or someone else.

H1N1 is a killer, do you want to be the one who passes it on resulting in a death?

findingnemo1
10-27-2009, 02:26 PM
Just a side note to everyone. I currently have this wonderful H1N1 and i wouldn't wish this upon my worst enemy. Its the pnemonia part that is the killer.
I have never ever felt this bad in my life and i have had the regular seasonal flu,this takes the flu to a whole new level. Even if ppl normally dont like to get the flu shot i think this one should b done. The mere thought of a young child getting this is a scarey concept...It literally takes your breath away for days.

So yes my family will be getting ours....just to late for me:)

Leah
10-27-2009, 03:39 PM
Hope you feel better soon, I was on the fence but agree I do not want my child getting this. So thank-you for sharing I think we should just get it. I have heard that you should probably get the regular shot flu shot as well, anyone else hear this?

wickedfrags
10-27-2009, 04:44 PM
I work in health care (not direct patient care), 35M, and will not be getting a flue shot for my own reasons. That being said, I do not have children.

And FYI.....don't believe what the TV/newspapers and even the government advise about the importance of hand washing to prevent the flu, despite what is portrayed in the media, the vast majority to flu is transfered via airborne inhallation and not hand contact. Clean hands does however makes sense, it just wont prevent the flu.

kien
10-27-2009, 04:56 PM
So many conflicting reports and stories.. As I understand it, this is just a flu virus. Granted a new one, but any well bodied person with healthy immunity should be able to kick it like any other flu virus. I realize that complications come in when people with depressed immune systems get it and can get sicker or worse, but that is no different than the seasonal flu. I think a vaccine is a good idea, but I also think that there's a lot of hysteria right now among the population, thanks in part to the media and the interwebs. Don't Panic! :biggrin:

P.S. My 2 year old son and I had the flu last week, wasn't fun, but we're over it now. Ironically, because my son goes to daycare he gets all sorts of nasty daycare illnesses at least once a month since he started going to daycare a year ago. I attribute his naturally built up immunity to his quick recovery. After having a fever and laboured breathing for a day, he was fine the next and out and about playing, while I was out for three days! It is not pleasant to see our children ill, but it is natural that they get ill so that they can build up their immunity. Just feed them well.

wickedfrags
10-27-2009, 05:05 PM
Honestly, for most healthy adults this may not be a bad flu to get as it is not that severe, and it may very well assist your immune system in defending against the next H1 mutation which may be much more severe in terms of loss of life.

I am testing our health centre staff on N95 respirators today as part of our emergency prepardeness plan...

So many conflicting reports and stories.. As I understand it, this is just a flu virus. Granted a new one, but any well bodied person with healthy immunity should be able to kick it like any other flu virus. I realize that complications come in when people with depressed immune systems get it and can get sicker or worse, but that is no different than the seasonal flu. I think a vaccine is a good idea, but I also think that there's a lot of hysteria right now among the population, thanks in part to the media and the interwebs. Don't Panic! :biggrin:

workn2hard2day
10-27-2009, 06:28 PM
I voted no. The last time I had the "flu" was when I had a flu shot a few years back. The doctor said I was probably already coming down with it and the shot just made things worse.


this is one of the side effects, if you are 1 in a million.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM&feature=player_embedded

BC564
10-27-2009, 07:01 PM
I will get it...but mostly because its provided through work...I wouldnt go out of my way to get it....but hey...they are coming to me.

fraggalrock
10-27-2009, 07:29 PM
I will never ever get a vaccine.I have worked in healthcare and too much information about side effects and other things are kept from the public.I dont buy into the hype.I also didnt vaccinate my childen who are now grown.I got a lot of heat from that one.When my youngest was 3 we was hospitalized for bronchitis and they noticed on his chart he was not vaccinated.They also saw a note in his file saying no to vaccines.Well they dosed my kid with vaccines.My son who was perfectly fine changed over night.He was diagnosed with a form of autism 6 months later.He is 19 now.

Ross
10-27-2009, 08:37 PM
Somethings smells fishy about the whole thing to me.

Time will tell.

kien
10-27-2009, 09:13 PM
Somethings smells fishy about the whole thing to me.

Time will tell.

Alien invasion. This is the first wave. Mass hysteria and a fake virus that requires a "miracle vaccine". :lol::lol::lol: ya.. okay I watch too much sci fi.

Parker
10-27-2009, 09:14 PM
I'm undecided at this point. My wife works in heathcare, community heath and is in direct contact, she's actually one of the nurses giving shots. She's undecisded also on whether we should get it or not.

crysmom
10-27-2009, 10:17 PM
I wont be getting the shot and from a non formal poll at my worksite it seems all the nurses I've talked to don't want it either

Ross
10-27-2009, 10:30 PM
I wont be getting the shot and from a non formal poll at my worksite it seems all the nurses I've talked to don't want it either

Kind of makes it hard to roll up the sleeve if the nurses dont want it doesnt it?

crysmom
10-27-2009, 11:22 PM
I think if you have people in your home with decreased immune systems or asthma type problems perhaps it would be a good ideam but in our house we are all healthy with no underlying health problems and everyone is over 2 so i'm not overly worried about my immediate families health if we were to get this virus- Now there is something to be said for "taking one for the team" to help with the general population and prevent it being spread, but I think quarantining yourself and not doing things like going grocery shopping when you are sick (sorry I know someone with this flu and they are off work so took some time to go to the bank and saveon) is helpful to prevent the spread. Kind of makes it hard to roll up the sleeve if the nurses dont want it doesnt it?

noirsphynx
10-27-2009, 11:36 PM
Kind of makes it hard to roll up the sleeve if the nurses dont want it doesnt it?

My cousin is a nurse and says she will not get it but I haven't had a chance to talk to her yet about it. I'm on the fence about it. The shot concerns me with the adjuvants that are in it. I have two daughters with underlying conditions so I'm curious to see what my cousin will say about it.

mark
10-27-2009, 11:47 PM
Just thought I would point out the wife works in the hospital and neither she or many of her co-works have major concerns so it's not all one sided that Healthcare professionals are against it.

btw, family got ours today, still alive. Guess we'll see if I'm still posting in a week.

intarsiabox
10-28-2009, 12:55 AM
My wife is a nurse as well and she and the collegues she talks to at the hospital are all getting the shot, even our family doctor and pediatrician have received and recommend it and you usually have to be dying before he'll prescribe anything but Tylanol. No one has ever got the flu from the flu shot, some have allergic reactions to the preservatives in it but the effects are immediate. All the shot is is a dead virus, it is your own body, not the shot, that creates the immunity. Actually most medical procedures and medicines rely on your body to do most of the work. Some people say that everyone over-reacted with Mexico because it never got that bad, did those same people consider that maybe because of the desperate actions taken that is the reason it didn't get bad? To get the shot or not is your own choice and I wouldn't recommend basing your decision on this forum or any others so I'm not recommending anything one way or the other. Unless you know some of the researchers personally everything else is just peoples opinions, including mine.

VFX
10-28-2009, 05:41 AM
Unless you know some of the researchers personally everything else is just peoples opinions, including mine.

People's opinions was what I was after.

My mind is made up already but it's interesting to know what others think on a subject that effects us all.

.

pinhead
10-28-2009, 07:21 AM
It's all bull**** media hype, I'd rather risk "H1N1" then the known and occuring side effects from the shot

What are the known and occuring side effects and where are you getting your information - the media?

Or second hand information from other people,
They told me about half a dozen deaths locally they knew about from the same batch of meds that were used.

Or Youtube?

this is one of the side effects, if you are 1 in a million.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM&feature=player_embedded
(An explanation of the woman's symptoms http://www.examiner.com/x-13791-Baltimore-Disease-Prevention-Examiner~y2009m10d16-Woman-claiming-she-acquired-dystonia-from-a-flu-shot-may-have-it-all-in-her-head)



My information comes from the scientist's research. This information is found in peer-reviewed scientific journals or summarized for the layman magazines such as New Scientist. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18014-is-the-swine-flu-vaccine-safe.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news

Doing research from these sources will lead you to the following facts:

This strain of flu isn't always mild

It can be fatal - particularly in young people (43 deaths of children in the US in the first 2 weeks of October)

Even if you have a mild reaction to the flu virus, you could be the cause of a serious ilness in your children, other family member, co-worker or anyone else you come in contact with

Although the virus can be breathed in as an aerosol droplet, in can survive upto 48 hours on non-porous surfaces and then transfered to your eyes, nose or mouth.

The vaccine is safe (the canadian vaccine, unlike the US is a dead virus). The misinformation about flu vaccine side effects come from the 1976 US swine flu vaccinations where out of 48 million vaccinations, roughly 500 people developed Guillain-Barré syndrome and 25 died. This rate is roughly 10 cases of Guillain-Barré Syndrome for every 1 million vaccinations. Surprisingly, Guillain-Barré is found at a rate of 40-70 for every 1 million non-vaccinated flu sufferers and in the general population from other sources at 10 - 20 cases for every million people. Your chances if you were vaccinated in 1976 of getting Guillain-Barré were lower than if you caught the flu and the same as getting it from other sources.

Medical technology and vaccines have improved in 23 years - these side effects were from the 1976 vaccine.

One of these advancements is the addition of adjuvants made of fish oil, water and Vitamin E which are added to improve the body's immune response.

In Canada, the vaccine is free.

So the vaccine is: safe, cheap and will protect me or my family from from a possibly fatal disease. I guess I don't have tell you I am getting the vaccine.

I can provide references so you can base your decision on verifiable facts rather than rumors and information from almost 30 years ago.

wickedfrags
10-28-2009, 01:07 PM
Some good references made, so I will ask a couple follow up questions:

Is 43 deaths significant given the number of "young people" in the US? How many young people died in the US during the same time period to give us some perspective? Also - the people who died from the curent strain have generally had underlying health issues and were often immuno-compromized prior to aquiring the flu. Asthma, diabetes, obesity, and various and other upper and lower repiratory tract concerns are common among those who died.

Protecting others is a strong reason for getting the flue shot - and remember you are contagious 48 hours before you show any signs or symptoms of the flu yourself.

The flu can survice up to 48 hours outside the human body, but at what relative humidity? Flu season in Canada (well at least outside BC) is generally quite cold and relative humidity is low.



This strain of flu isn't always mild

It can be fatal - particularly in young people (43 deaths of children in the US in the first 2 weeks of October)

Even if you have a mild reaction to the flu virus, you could be the cause of a serious ilness in your children, other family member, co-worker or anyone else you come in contact with

Although the virus can be breathed in as an aerosol droplet, in can survive upto 48 hours on non-porous surfaces and then transfered to your eyes, nose or mouth.

Medical technology and vaccines have improved in 23 years - these side effects were from the 1976 vaccine.

intarsiabox
10-28-2009, 01:25 PM
IF it is preventable even one extra death is too many. I sure wouldn't want one of my daughters to die because of the swine flu and then have people say, "Oh well, she was only one of 43". Of course I'm only saying "IF" as the vaccine isn't widely proven yet but I hope it is the answer.

Ron99
10-28-2009, 02:37 PM
What are the known and occuring side effects and where are you getting your information - the media?

Or second hand information from other people,


Or Youtube?

(An explanation of the woman's symptoms http://www.examiner.com/x-13791-Baltimore-Disease-Prevention-Examiner~y2009m10d16-Woman-claiming-she-acquired-dystonia-from-a-flu-shot-may-have-it-all-in-her-head)



My information comes from the scientist's research. This information is found in peer-reviewed scientific journals or summarized for the layman magazines such as New Scientist. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18014-is-the-swine-flu-vaccine-safe.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news

Doing research from these sources will lead you to the following facts:

This strain of flu isn't always mild

It can be fatal - particularly in young people (43 deaths of children in the US in the first 2 weeks of October)

Even if you have a mild reaction to the flu virus, you could be the cause of a serious ilness in your children, other family member, co-worker or anyone else you come in contact with

Although the virus can be breathed in as an aerosol droplet, in can survive upto 48 hours on non-porous surfaces and then transfered to your eyes, nose or mouth.

The vaccine is safe (the canadian vaccine, unlike the US is a dead virus). The misinformation about flu vaccine side effects come from the 1976 US swine flu vaccinations where out of 48 million vaccinations, roughly 500 people developed Guillain-Barré syndrome and 25 died. This rate is roughly 10 cases of Guillain-Barré Syndrome for every 1 million vaccinations. Surprisingly, Guillain-Barré is found at a rate of 40-70 for every 1 million non-vaccinated flu sufferers and in the general population from other sources at 10 - 20 cases for every million people. Your chances if you were vaccinated in 1976 of getting Guillain-Barré were lower than if you caught the flu and the same as getting it from other sources.

Medical technology and vaccines have improved in 23 years - these side effects were from the 1976 vaccine.

One of these advancements is the addition of adjuvants made of fish oil, water and Vitamin E which are added to improve the body's immune response.

In Canada, the vaccine is free.

So the vaccine is: safe, cheap and will protect me or my family from from a possibly fatal disease. I guess I don't have tell you I am getting the vaccine.

I can provide references so you can base your decision on verifiable facts rather than rumors and information from almost 30 years ago.

+1000. This is the best response to this thread yet. I have been trying to decide if and how to respond here. I really can't believe the level of misinformation and paranoia out there. Do people honestly believe this is some sort of government conspiracy (amongst many world governments coordinating it) or conspiracy by the vaccine companies to make money at our expense?

I think we also need to look beyond the fact that H1N1 is a serious health threat to a small subset of the population and also realize that the economic and social threats of a major flu epidemic/pandemic are potentially also very severe, especially coming as the world tries to recover from the economic meltdown.

Imagine millions of people sick and unable to work. The garbage can't be collected, mail doesn't get delivered, transit systems have difficulty running, grocery stores have difficulty receiving shipments of food etc. etc. Now imagine if recalcitrant health care workers do not get vaccinated and start becoming sick. What happens if the health care system itself is impaired during such an epidemic? Sure that's a worse case scenario but it is one that is worth considering as a very real possibility.

Personally I think it is irresponsible to not get vaccinated when we face a global pandemic. Doubly so if you are a health care or emergency service worker. Imagine if huge numbers of people were paranoid about the smallpox vaccine and didn't get their shot?

Of course this is my opinion and I suppose you are entitled to your wrong opinion :lol:

Ron99
10-28-2009, 02:49 PM
Some good references made, so I will ask a couple follow up questions:

The flu can survice up to 48 hours outside the human body, but at what relative humidity? Flu season in Canada (well at least outside BC) is generally quite cold and relative humidity is low.

Hi Dave,

The conditions in Canada in the winter are actually probably more conducive to flu virus survival outside the body. The virus lasts longer at lower temperatures (and indefinitely below freezing) and lower levels of sunlight (less UV to damage it) and humidity. On a dry non-porous surface such as plastic or metal the virus may survive for several days. I believe studies have shown that on a dry piece of paper it remains viable for 15 minutes. If it is in mucous then it can survive much longer.

So even though it is relatively humid in BC during the winter it is still cold and we get little sunlight. :sad:

Myka
10-28-2009, 03:57 PM
I absolutely will not have the vaccine. It hasn't been out nearly long enough for anyone to know any long-term side effects. I'm not at any greater risk than the average person, and I'm generally quite healthy so I have no worries.

Ian
10-28-2009, 04:37 PM
I will certainly be getting it.
As a teacher i feal it would be negligent for me not to. yesterday mt school pased 35% of our students missing due to flu or flu like symptoms, yes we did call to confirm every one. we also have confirmed cases of H1N1 in our school.
I realise that some risk is involved in getting the shots(s) but nearly every medical procedure has some risk. The risk to myself, my family, and my students is far greater should I contract H1N1. I know I have ben exposed already and will be multiple times inthe upcoming months. How could I live with myself if I passed a bug that killed a child.
While I do feel that a media frenzy is making this seem worse than it truly is, from everything I have read this flu is a killer far beyond the normal seasonal flu's that come around yearly. it has been followed for nearly 50 years and is not new.

Ron99
10-28-2009, 04:44 PM
I absolutely will not have the vaccine. It hasn't been out nearly long enough for anyone to know any long-term side effects. I'm not at any greater risk than the average person, and I'm generally quite healthy so I have no worries.

Well you see, that's the the exact misconception everybody has. There are no side effects that are any different then the seasonal flu vaccines that have been used for years. There are no unknown long term side effects. It is all media fear mongering pulling all the rare but known side effects of flu vaccines out of the closet. If you have had a flu shot before there is nothing different about this one.

Ron99
10-28-2009, 04:48 PM
I absolutely will not have the vaccine. It hasn't been out nearly long enough for anyone to know any long-term side effects. I'm not at any greater risk than the average person, and I'm generally quite healthy so I have no worries.

Also, if you do catch H1N1 are you willing to completely isolate yourself so you you don't risk passing it on to somebody at greater risk of serious complications?

VFX
10-28-2009, 05:39 PM
I know I have been exposed already and will be multiple times in the upcoming months.

If you definitely know you have been exposed & have not been ill, does that mean you built up immunity & thus wont need the vaccination?

I'm not judging or suggesting, I'm just wondering.

.

Delphinus
10-28-2009, 06:02 PM
Hesitant to weigh on this one because I don't think the debate will ever end, people will want to believe what they want to believe and that's really the end of it, isn't it ..

I don't always get my flu shot every year. Sometimes I get flu, sometimes I don't. FWIW, I got my H1N1 shot already on Monday. Had sore arms for most of yesterday, other than that I still appear to be here this morning, at least for now.

This is what I think people need to consider:
- H1N1 is different from other flu's in that otherwise healthy people are dying from it, and not just the usual high-risk groups (infants, eldery, infirm, or otherwise compromised people). Ordinary, average, HEALTHY people are dying from it. Yes, not many, but that's not the point. The point is it's targeting different people.
- If the people who have died, would not have died had they been vaccinated, then does that not favour vaccination?

Don't listen to arguments like "I work in the health care industry and I'm not getting it" (or for what it's worth, arguments like "I work in the health care industry and I am getting it"). Good for you for whatever industry you work in, but it doesn't matter as that's totally irrelevant. That's like me saying "I write software for a living and I don't have any antivirus on my PC."

Do your own research.

To me it is about prevention and risk mitigation. That's part of the problem facing the health-care crisis right there: too many people think in terms of "oh well, if it happens, we'll just deal with it" instead of focusing on prevention, in general.

Peace...

pinhead
10-28-2009, 06:10 PM
Is 43 deaths significant given the number of "young people" in the US? How many young people died in the US during the same time period to give us some perspective? Also - the people who died from the curent strain have generally had underlying health issues and were often immuno-compromized prior to aquiring the flu. Asthma, diabetes, obesity, and various and other upper and lower repiratory tract concerns are common among those who died.

Not going to plow through the weekly updates from the Centre for Disease control for the statistics for the period of the 43 deaths, but I did find the information in the August 8th report

"8 of the 36 children who died of swine flu were aged 5 years and over and had no reported high risk conditions. Although two of these children were reported as obese, no data was given on their height and weight."

So for the time period in that report roughly 20% of the deaths in children were in healthy individuals.

I am not sure how many other deaths of children occured during that time period but if the vaccine were available at that time at these deaths were preventable.

If I was a parent of a child who died because of my decision not to have them or myself vaccinated, I would carry that guilt for the rest of my life.

André Picard, the health reporter for the Globe and Mail emphasizes this point:

"I am not getting the vaccine for myself, I am getting it for my grandmother"

fishoholic
10-28-2009, 09:27 PM
Personally I think it is irresponsible to not get vaccinated when we face a global pandemic. Doubly so if you are a health care or emergency service worker. Imagine if huge numbers of people were paranoid about the smallpox vaccine and didn't get their shot?



+1


I realise that some risk is involved in getting the shots(s) but nearly every medical procedure has some risk. The risk to myself, my family, and my students is far greater should I contract H1N1. I know I have ben exposed already and will be multiple times inthe upcoming months. How could I live with myself if I passed a bug that killed a child.
While I do feel that a media frenzy is making this seem worse than it truly is, from everything I have read this flu is a killer far beyond the normal seasonal flu's that come around yearly. it has been followed for nearly 50 years and is not new.

+1

Hesitant to weigh on this one because I don't think the debate will ever end, people will want to believe what they want to believe and that's really the end of it, isn't it ..

I don't always get my flu shot every year. Sometimes I get flu, sometimes I don't. FWIW, I got my H1N1 shot already on Monday. Had sore arms for most of yesterday, other than that I still appear to be here this morning, at least for now.

This is what I think people need to consider:
- H1N1 is different from other flu's in that otherwise healthy people are dying from it, and not just the usual high-risk groups (infants, eldery, infirm, or otherwise compromised people). Ordinary, average, HEALTHY people are dying from it. Yes, not many, but that's not the point. The point is it's targeting different people.
- If the people who have died, would not have died had they been vaccinated, then does that not favour vaccination?

Don't listen to arguments like "I work in the health care industry and I'm not getting it" (or for what it's worth, arguments like "I work in the health care industry and I am getting it"). Good for you for whatever industry you work in, but it doesn't matter as that's totally irrelevant. That's like me saying "I write software for a living and I don't have any antivirus on my PC."

Do your own research.

To me it is about prevention and risk mitigation. That's part of the problem facing the health-care crisis right there: too many people think in terms of "oh well, if it happens, we'll just deal with it" instead of focusing on prevention, in general.

Peace...

Well said Tony, this sums it up perfectly for me. I plan on getting my shot for H1N1 on friday.

midgetwaiter
10-28-2009, 09:50 PM
I absolutely will not have the vaccine. It hasn't been out nearly long enough for anyone to know any long-term side effects. I'm not at any greater risk than the average person, and I'm generally quite healthy so I have no worries.

They haven't substantially changed the way they make flu vaccines in 30 years, how much more information could you possibly need?

Also, if you do catch H1N1 are you willing to completely isolate yourself so you you don't risk passing it on to somebody at greater risk of serious complications?

Welcome to my world. My Girlfriend was here for the weekend and we both started getting sick Sunday night. She's a teacher and had half of one of her classes missing on Friday and there are a few confirmed cases in her school. Monday morning I made some calls and let everyone know I would be out of action until I knew what was going on.

I'm feeling better today and never developed a bad fever so I don't have H1N1. I'm glad I decided to stay home though.

VFX
10-28-2009, 10:24 PM
They haven't substantially changed the way they make flu vaccines in 30 years, how much more information could you possibly need?

H1N1 as some of you have stated is different from regular flu.

This is a strain that we have not seen before & hence it's more contagious as virtually nobody has a natural immunity to it.

Therefore it stands to reason that the H1N1 vaccination is also different from regular flu vaccinations as it uses H1N1 in it's make up, albeit in a deactivated form (not a dead form as some people have suggested).

There has been questions raised about the vaccine in regards to it's speed to market & to 'mistakes' that have occurred along the way. These have been well documented & anyone with access to Google can find them.

Also, regular flu vaccines do not contain the same adjuvants as most H1N1 vaccines. For example, in Canada, we are mostly using GlaxoSmithKline's vaccine. This contains their AS03 adjuvant. Because of this, it is not widely used in the US & GSK are having to await regulatory approval on their non-AS03 version of the vaccine.

So no, flu vaccines have not changed that much in the last 30 yrs, but if people think they have ALL the information they need, they might be wrong.

The facts so far are:

1 - Risk of catching H1N1 - Minimal (5.26% of Canreefers so far)
2 - Risk of dying from H1N1 - Very small percentage of Minimal.
3 - Risk of contracting serious complications from taking vaccine - miniscule.

I guess you just choose your own risk level.

However, that still leaves too many questions about the true origins of H1N1, the speed at which the WHO have escalated the pandemic levels, & the worldwide vaccination program being 'forced' down our throats by the government & the media.

Just look at the polls so far

- 37.72% - No
- 16.67% - think there's something sinister going on.

Over 54% of Canreefers can't all be stupid right?

.

midgetwaiter
10-28-2009, 10:50 PM
Therefore it stands to reason that the H1N1 vaccination is also different from regular flu vaccinations as it uses H1N1 in it's make up, albeit in a deactivated form (not a dead form as some people have suggested).


Okay the vaccine NEEDS to have some form of H1N1 in it, that's how vaccines work, it's like training wheels for your immune system. You can't teach it to fight a virus without providing it something that very closely resembles the virus.

The fact that this vaccine uses attenuated (damaged but alive) virus rather than dead virus is again not especially new. This technique hasn't traditionally been used for flu vaccines but has been used before. It is preferred as it works better in healthy adults and has been used in mumps, measles, rubella and yellow fever for many years.


Also, regular flu vaccines do not contain the same adjuvants as most H1N1 vaccines. For example, in Canada, we are mostly using GlaxoSmithKline's vaccine. This contains their AS03 adjuvant. Because of this, it is not widely used in the US & GSK are having to await regulatory approval on their non-AS03 version of the vaccine.


The adjuvant was developed for use in the H5N1 vaccine GSK recently fielded, it made sense for them to use that as a starting point for the H1N1 vaccine. It was submitted first and got approved first. So what's your point?



Just look at the polls so far

- 37.72% - No
- 16.67% - think there's something sinister going on.

Over 54% of Canreefers can't all be stupid right?

.

I wouldn't say stupid, could 54% of Canreefers be wrong? Absolutely. More that once we've seen some very common misconceptions about reef keeping get shot to flames here, why should this be different?

VFX
10-28-2009, 11:16 PM
What's my point?

1 - H1N1 is new & therefore we don't nearly enough about it but we're using it against itself in vaccinations. H1N1 is mutative by nature. That's how it became H1N1 in the 1st place according to most mainstream science/media reports. We cannot account for every mutation or further strains of this. There being many flu strains out there is why I still get flu time to time despite having flu jabs.

2 - The GSK Vaccine used in Canad has not been approved in the US because of it's AS03 adjuvants. My point is, are we using it if the US are demanding a AS03 free version? What's in these adjuvants?

3 - 54% can be wrong yes, but statistically it's more likely that 31.58% is wrong.

4 - My final point is, something still doesn't sit right with me about the whole thing & I can't put my finger on it.

.

Ron99
10-28-2009, 11:50 PM
What's my point?

1 - H1N1 is new & therefore we don't nearly enough about it but we're using it against itself in vaccinations. H1N1 is mutative by nature. That's how it became H1N1 in the 1st place according to most mainstream science/media reports. We cannot account for every mutation or further strains of this. There being many flu strains out there is why I still get flu time to time despite having flu jabs.

.

Every single vaccine ever made has either dead or attenuated microbe or pieces of the microbe's proteins in it. Your body recognizes the foreign proteins as being "not you" and produces antibodies against it. That is how you develop immunity and how vaccines work. So every year new flu vaccines come out using the new strains of flu virus expected that year. There is nothing different about this.

The reason why people still get the flu after having flu shots is that the flu shots for each year are a best guess made by the medical community as to which 3 or 4 strains might be a problem in the coming flu season. Often they get one or more wrong. Also, other strains do occur as well but may be less common then the ones vaccinated against. So seasonal flu vaccines are often not 100% effective. Do not confuse that with the H1N1 vaccine though as that is a known strain and the vaccine is targeted at it.



2 - The GSK Vaccine used in Canad has not been approved in the US because of it's AS03 adjuvants. My point is, are we using it if the US are demanding a AS03 free version? What's in these adjuvants?

.

However, these adjuvants have been used in Europe for a long time and are well understood and tested there. The simple explanation is that adjuvants are extra ingredients that stimulate your immune system to produce a more vigorous response. It allows the vaccine to be effective but contain less virus. This was chosen to get the vaccine out sooner as growing H1N1 proved to be difficult and the supply of virus to make vaccines has been constrained.



3 - 54% can be wrong yes, but statistically it's more likely that 31.58% is wrong.

.

I'm sure we can find many many many examples of the majority being wrong

What's my point?

4 - My final point is, something still doesn't sit right with me about the whole thing & I can't put my finger on it.

.

If I had to guess I would say it is just a combination of the current mass paranoia that seems to be developing over H1N1 coupled to ignorance. And I don't mean that to be insulting, I'm using "ignorant" in the exact definition as "lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact".

I think since the average person has no substantial knowledge of medicine, microbiology, immunology, pharmaceutical science and epidemiology it is easy for them to get lost in the misinformation and silliness being reported. This is especially true with the internet where many things are written with little research or basis in facts and information.

I strongly believe that we should look at the big picture and work together to try to control the spread of pandemics which will likely be much more common in the future as the human population keeps growing and also global travel keeps increasing. it is very easy for a virus to travel to the other side of the globe in 1 or 2 days now compared to weeks to months 100 or more years ago.

I mentioned smallpox earlier. The only way smallpox was eliminated was through mass global vaccinations. Things like H1N1 and whatever comes next will also need similar responses to keep them under control. Vaccines and pharmaceuticals are heavily regulated. More so then almost any other product you will use. More so then cars for example. But when you get behind the wheel of a new car you trust that the regulations ensured the manufacturer built the car to have brakes that work and seat belts that work etc. Why should this be any different?

Government is usually pretty wasteful and stupid but if they are paying to have everybody vaccinated there is probably a pretty good reason for it. It's a lot of money that they can't use to line their own pockets or hand out to special interest groups for votes :biggrin:

intarsiabox
10-29-2009, 12:41 AM
The adjuvant used is squalene based and has been used in the UK since 1997 with over 22 million doses given. The use of adjuvants is not new in Canada just in the flu shot. Meningitis and pneumonia vaccines have been using adjuvants in Canada for years.

Link to a CTV News question and answer report on the vaccine.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090724/vaccine_faq_090725/20090725?hub=Health

Another link from the Globe and Mail with Canada's chief health officer stating that the vaccine does NOT contain a live virus as some sources have been stating.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/health-officials-scramble-to-counter-h1n1-myths/article1336764/

VFX
10-29-2009, 02:07 AM
Just for the record my partner works in Pharmacuetics so I do know a thing or 2 about how flu vaccines & other medicines work & how they're made. I've bugged her endlessly on this!

As you say, the H1N1 vaccine is specifically targeted at a strain of flu which is mutative by nature... what happens when a more virulent & more resistant strain develops? Do we keep updating our flu jabs like constantly downloading Windows patches & fixes?

The fact that they have to use adjuvants to boost effectiveness worries me & shows that they've struggled to get the drug on the market.

Why is H1N1 so virulent & contagious but when they try to mass produce it in a lab, they can't? Doesn't this indicate that H1N1 is something more exotic than a strain of the flu virus?

People are saying 22m doses of squalene based adjuvant enhanced flu vaccine has been administered without 'severe' events being noted. What they don't say is that the adjuvants in the H1N1 vaccine is not just made from shark liver oil but has added mineral & other bio content.

What people need to understand is that we're not comparing like for like. The H1N1 vaccine is not like the regular flu vaccine for numerous reasons.

As for smallpox? You can't compare smallpox to flu. You get smallpox you get very ill or very dead, very quickly. In fact there's an approximate death rate of 50% for the more virulent smallpox strain. You get H1N1 & only a very tiny percentage die.

As for implying that I'm ignorant... doesn't my post here show that I'm seeking to add to what I know about H1N1 vaccinations & what people think of them? I'm trying to educate myself here.

To say that I'm lacking information (hence my post to gather opinions) is probably true, but to call me ignorant is a step too far. How much of what you think you know do you REALLY know?

How much do we all really know about the origins of H1N1?

How much do we all know about GSK, Baxter & other pharmaceuticals & their rush to develop the vaccine?

How much do we know about the hundreds of concentration camps springing up around the US right now? Are they to quarantine people who refuse to take the vaccine? Are they to future quarantine H1N1 sufferers? Those are some pretty big camps!

How much do we really know about the Vatican? the Illuminati? the Rothschilds? the Free Masons? Knights of Malta? the plot to eliminate most of the planet's population so that 550 million of the enlightened ones can live in paradise?

Sounds like a Dan Brown novel, but do we really know that there's nothing more sinister happening?

.

noirsphynx
10-29-2009, 02:14 AM
http://logisticsmonster.com/2009/10/26/doctors-speak-out-about-h1n1-vaccine-dangers/
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5237185n

Myka
10-29-2009, 02:37 AM
They haven't substantially changed the way they make flu vaccines in 30 years, how much more information could you possibly need?

I haven't had a vaccine since the Hepatitis C triple vaccine in grade 6, so I'm not exactly on the vaccine bandwagon. Call me ignorant, but enough other people will get vaccines that I have little to worry about. I haven't even had a "regular" flu in several years. I don't get sick very often. I had a cold last March though. :D

GreenSpottedPuffer
10-29-2009, 03:12 AM
I'm not sure where I stand but my doctor who is also a family member, strongly advised myself and my fiancee who is asthmatic to NOT get the vaccine. His concern is not necessarily that anything sinister is going on here (nor do I) but simply that it was way too rushed as normal vaccinations for the flu are put under much more rigorous and longer term testing. He instead prescribed us tamiflu to have on hand. Asked us to keep up with our Vit. D, C, zinc, ect. along with a bunch of herbal suggestions.

He said its been a really tough subject at work lately as people ask him daily.

Actually both my brothers and mom have already had H1N1. One of my brothers was confirmed H1N1, so we assume the others also had it since it was all at the same time. Both my brothers got it very mildly although it lasted about 2 weeks. My mom was a little more severe I guess but she said the worst part was the aches.

intarsiabox
10-29-2009, 03:49 AM
The vaccine has been in development since the end of April, exactly how long is the regular annual flu shot worked on? The researches need to figure out what the most common flu's of the season are going to be before any development is done so when do they start working on it? Anybody know anyone who works in vaccine mfg that would know the answer to this?

If the H1N1 vaccine wasn't "fast tracked" the same people complaining about it now would still be complaining but saying that the research companies are taking too long and people are dying needlessly. The conspiracy would still be the same though, the government is trying to reduce the population by not vaccinating instead of by vaccinating.

Where did H1N1 come from? There are fossilized viruses found in dinosaurs, despite small brains maybe they bio-engineered them? Where did the plague come from? How about tuberculosis? Wasting disease in wild animals? Viruses were here long before humans and have been killing and mutating since the dawn of time. After 4.5 billion years of virus evolution I'm sure there is going to be plenty more new viruses to found in the future. The wild can only support so much wildlife and when it gets overpopulated a virus shows up and culls the animals, how much of a human population will the earth support before we're culled? The plague wiped out 1/4 of the worlds population once, was it Utopia after that or just the same sad world we've made for ourselves?

Of course no one is the same, we all have a different genetic make up. There is always a risk with anything medical, with every medicine, vaccine, chemical or procedure there will always be someone with adverse side effects from it. Nothing is risk free, you could try a new dish at a restaurant and die from an unknown allergy, so you need to judge for yourself if the risks of a vaccination outweigh the risks of the disease.

Just remember, dead people don't pay taxes!:smile:

GreenSpottedPuffer
10-29-2009, 04:24 AM
Seasonal flu kills an estimated 500, 000 worldwide every year but rarely are the cases reported on. Every single H1N1 death is headline news lately yet for example in BC the death toll is still in the teens, I believe 12 deaths with less than 200 severe cases since this all began. Worldwide I believe its around 5, 000 now.

I'm not taking it lightly and it does concern me, I do think it could get worse, ect. but what does concern me is how fast the WHO declared a pandemic and started to push these vaccines. Less than 200 severe cases in BC (just using BC as an example because I keep hearing about how its worst hit in Canada) in 7 months, among 4.4 million people, is hardly a pandemic. Reason for concern of course but not a pandemic.

intarsiabox
10-29-2009, 04:34 AM
The WHO has different levels of pandemic and this one is a low level. Actually the word pandemic gets thrown out to the public suprisingly very easy from what I've read. It doesn't take much for a virus to be declared a pandemic so I would heed the word with a grain of salt, although one of the criteria is a viruses ability to become worse (which is a real potential). If the H1N1 virus does mutate to a more evil form there is no guarentee that the current vaccine will protect you but this hasn't happened yet and may never happen.

Ron99
10-29-2009, 05:29 AM
As you say, the H1N1 vaccine is specifically targeted at a strain of flu which is mutative by nature... what happens when a more virulent & more resistant strain develops? Do we keep updating our flu jabs like constantly downloading Windows patches & fixes?.

That Depends on how it mutates. The current vaccine may still provide full immunity, partial immunity or none at all. Can't predict that in advance. It depends on how it mutates.



The fact that they have to use adjuvants to boost effectiveness worries me & shows that they've struggled to get the drug on the market.

Why is H1N1 so virulent & contagious but when they try to mass produce it in a lab, they can't? Doesn't this indicate that H1N1 is something more exotic than a strain of the flu virus?.

The adjuvants are there to boost effectiveness when you don't have enough virus to make a full strength vaccine. Growing a flu virus in a lab culture is different then where the virus normally grows in human tissue. It is not the virus' normal environment so it may not grow anywhere near as well in culture. It would be like trying to grow SPS at the bottom of a 24" tank with some PC lighting. It might survive and maybe even grow really slowly but nowhere near as well as in its optimal conditions. Not the best analogy but something we can relate to on this board.



What people need to understand is that we're not comparing like for like. The H1N1 vaccine is not like the regular flu vaccine for numerous reasons..

Maybe a bit different then the typical North American flu vaccine but it is very similar to the European vaccines that have been used for years in millions of people. So we have all that data on it.



As for smallpox? You can't compare smallpox to flu. You get smallpox you get very ill or very dead, very quickly. In fact there's an approximate death rate of 50% for the more virulent smallpox strain. You get H1N1 & only a very tiny percentage die..

Yeah, that is a more extreme example. However, as has been pointed out, this strain of flu is more virulent then the usual seasonal flu and is killing people that would not normally be considered as high risk from regular seasonal flu. yes, it is still a relatively small number but it is significantly higher then regular seasonal flu. Young children are considered a higher risk group in H1N1. I would rather take the chance of a 1 in a million side effect in my kids then the 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 chance they could become seriously ill or die from H1N1. I would also not want to be the guy that gave H1N1 flu to somebody who ends up dead.



As for implying that I'm ignorant... doesn't my post here show that I'm seeking to add to what I know about H1N1 vaccinations & what people think of them? I'm trying to educate myself here..

As I said, I wasn't trying to be insulting and it was more a general comment that a lot of the fear and uncertainty is coming from ignorance and misunderstanding.



To say that I'm lacking information (hence my post to gather opinions) is probably true, but to call me ignorant is a step too far. How much of what you think you know do you REALLY know? .

Well, I would hope that my degrees in pharmacoloy and toxicology coupled to my 15 years of work in the pharmaceutical industry and my earlier undergraduate education in microbiology and my 6 years or so of working in diagnostic microbiology labs gives me some knowledge and experience to comment on this stuff :smile:



How much do we all really know about the origins of H1N1?

How much do we all know about GSK, Baxter & other pharmaceuticals & their rush to develop the vaccine?

How much do we know about the hundreds of concentration camps springing up around the US right now? Are they to quarantine people who refuse to take the vaccine? Are they to future quarantine H1N1 sufferers? Those are some pretty big camps!

How much do we really know about the Vatican? the Illuminati? the Rothschilds? the Free Masons? Knights of Malta? the plot to eliminate most of the planet's population so that 550 million of the enlightened ones can live in paradise?

Sounds like a Dan Brown novel, but do we really know that there's nothing more sinister happening?

.

Okay, now you're just getting silly :mrgreen:

Ron99
10-29-2009, 05:36 AM
http://logisticsmonster.com/2009/10/26/doctors-speak-out-about-h1n1-vaccine-dangers/
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5237185n

For video number 1 I would take anything found on that website with a huge grain of salt. A bunch of sound bites from people does not constitute any real facts or conclusions. In any group of people; scientists and doctors included, you will find dissenters and people who disagree with the evidence or accepted conclusions.

Video number 2 is a bit more balanced but agin does not sound any alarms. Yes, there are slight risks associated with vaccines. They occur something like 1 in a million doses. That is a very good safety profile. I can give you examples of many approved (and considered generally safe) drugs with much more common side effects than that. I believe the doctor does go on to state that maybe 1 in 100 people who contract H1N1 will have severe illness, possibly even death. Well, a 1% chance of becoming very ill or dieing is much higher then a 0.0001% chance of having a reaction to the vaccine. I know what odds I want to play.

midgetwaiter
10-29-2009, 06:26 AM
I'm not taking it lightly and it does concern me, I do think it could get worse, ect. but what does concern me is how fast the WHO declared a pandemic and started to push these vaccines. Less than 200 severe cases in BC (just using BC as an example because I keep hearing about how its worst hit in Canada) in 7 months, among 4.4 million people, is hardly a pandemic. Reason for concern of course but not a pandemic.

Pandemic is taken from the Greek pandemos, meaning "all the people". The word is used to indicate the spread of a disease and implies absolutely nothing about how serious a disease it may be. An influenza virus that has spread world wide in less than 6 months certainly qualifies as pandemic.

midgetwaiter
10-29-2009, 06:29 AM
How much do we know about the hundreds of concentration camps springing up around the US right now? Are they to quarantine people who refuse to take the vaccine? Are they to future quarantine H1N1 sufferers? Those are some pretty big camps!

How much do we really know about the Vatican? the Illuminati? the Rothschilds? the Free Masons? Knights of Malta? the plot to eliminate most of the planet's population so that 550 million of the enlightened ones can live in paradise?

Sounds like a Dan Brown novel, but do we really know that there's nothing more sinister happening?

.

Take the tinfoil off of your head and fashion a face mask out of it. A simple solution that uses materials you obviously have readily available.

VFX
10-29-2009, 06:42 AM
Ok being very simplistic here so bare with me...

Birds get flu.

Pigs get flu.

People get flu.

People rarely get bird flu or pig flu. Birds rarely get pig flu or human flu. (they sometimes do but apart from H5N1, it's rare)

Pigs are the link here. They can get both human & bird flu.

However, it's not normal for the flu virus to mutate to such a point that pigs can easily infect humans. It's even more rare for that virus to then mutate so that there's human to human contamination.

With that level of mutation it's likely that the H1N1 virus will mutate again.

Between 2005 & 2008 only dozen people in the US got swine flu. What changed in 2009? Why the sudden worldwide outbreak? Why does H1N1 not have the protein PB1-F2 & how does this effect the virulence & lethality of the flu?

The 22m vaccinations with adjuvants you speak of, do these mix fish oils with aluminium & mercury & other undisclosed biologicals? You have the data on this so it'd be great to let us all know.

When I ask what do you really know, I don't mean in terms of pharmacology, I mean with what's happening on a bigger scale. The larger picture of you will.

You may think it's getting silly to talk of all the different conspiracy theories out there but the one thing they do have in common is population reduction, control over world governments & the end of times.

I'm not saying I believe all those theories, but why discount them & ridicule them? Do you know for sure that everything we're told about the world is the truth?

Anecdotal I know, but I've been advised not to take the H1N1 vaccine by my GP, my partner (pharmaceuticals), the Head of Immunisation for ........ (province name withheld to avoid indentifying him without his permission), a surgeon in the same province, my family doctor in the UK & countless articles in the mainstream & alternative media.

GSP - did you get a preventative Tamiflu 'script because of your asthma condition?

Also, (and maybe Ron can answer this one too) how does Vit. D (or specifically Vit. D3 according to some) help against H1N1? I understand that it helps against bone dificiencies & helps the absorbtion of calcium & other elements but I'm unsure how it helps against flu.

I'm not being ignorant or arrogant but asking as many questions as I need to help me (& hopefully many others) learn.

.

VFX
10-29-2009, 06:44 AM
From the WHO:

As of 18th October 2009.

Number of cases Worldwide: Over 414945

Number of Deaths Worldwide: At least 4999

.

VFX
10-29-2009, 06:52 AM
Take the tinfoil off of your head and fashion a face mask out of it. A simple solution that uses materials you obviously have readily available.

Please don't be so insulting. There's obviously a sar-chasm between us. :razz:

.

GreenSpottedPuffer
10-29-2009, 07:35 AM
Ok being very simplistic here so bare with me...

Birds get flu.

Pigs get flu.

People get flu.

People rarely get bird flu or pig flu. Birds rarely get pig flu or human flu. (they sometimes do but apart from H5N1, it's rare)

Pigs are the link here. They can get both human & bird flu.

However, it's not normal for the flu virus to mutate to such a point that pigs can easily infect humans. It's even more rare for that virus to then mutate so that there's human to human contamination.

With that level of mutation it's likely that the H1N1 virus will mutate again.

Between 2005 & 2008 only dozen people in the US got swine flu. What changed in 2009? Why the sudden worldwide outbreak? Why does H1N1 not have the protein PB1-F2 & how does this effect the virulence & lethality of the flu?

The 22m vaccinations with adjuvants you speak of, do these mix fish oils with aluminium & mercury & other undisclosed biologicals? You have the data on this so it'd be great to let us all know.

When I ask what do you really know, I don't mean in terms of pharmacology, I mean with what's happening on a bigger scale. The larger picture of you will.

You may think it's getting silly to talk of all the different conspiracy theories out there but the one thing they do have in common is population reduction, control over world governments & the end of times.

I'm not saying I believe all those theories, but why discount them & ridicule them? Do you know for sure that everything we're told about the world is the truth?

Anecdotal I know, but I've been advised not to take the H1N1 vaccine by my GP, my partner (pharmaceuticals), the Head of Immunisation for ........ (province name withheld to avoid indentifying him without his permission), a surgeon in the same province, my family doctor in the UK & countless articles in the mainstream & alternative media.

GSP - did you get a preventative Tamiflu 'script because of your asthma condition?

Also, (and maybe Ron can answer this one too) how does Vit. D (or specifically Vit. D3 according to some) help against H1N1? I understand that it helps against bone dificiencies & helps the absorbtion of calcium & other elements but I'm unsure how it helps against flu.

I'm not being ignorant or arrogant but asking as many questions as I need to help me (& hopefully many others) learn.

.

I think you have to keep an open mind and some of those theories are pretty "out there" and some are more likely but all are certainly possible. We are all so well trained to obey and not question how/why things work. I think its crazy how many people actually are so closed minded and think "it's just not possible". I don't necessarily believe in most of them myself but I also don't not believe in them if that makes sense. Do you really think the "people at the top" or in power if you will (and that doesn't at all mean government), live in the same world you and I do?

It was my fiancee who was prescribed Tamiflu as a precaution because she is asthmatic. Im not sure many doctors will do that but it's a family member who knows her medical background very well and like I said does not want us to get the vaccination. Her asthma was very severe about 7 years back and she was hospitalized a few times for it. In the past 5 years though, she has not had the flu once and rarely gets even a slight cold. In his opinion, she is not at a higher risk of getting H1N1 but the concern is how her immune system would react if she did get it. He just wanted her to be able to take Tamiflu right away if needed.

VFX
10-29-2009, 07:58 AM
I think you have to keep an open mind and some of those theories are pretty "out there" and some are more likely but all are certainly possible. We are all so well trained to obey and not question how/why things work. I think its crazy how many people actually are so closed minded and think "it's just not possible". I don't necessarily believe in most of them myself but I also don't not believe in them if that makes sense. Do you really think the "people at the top" or in power if you will (and that doesn't at all mean government), live in the same world you and I do?


I'm glad we're on the same page! You said it better than I did.

You do know that Canreef is now being monitored closely right? I did mention 'US' 'Conspiracy' 'Illuminati' & 'Free Mason' in the same thread! :lol:

.

rjengen
10-29-2009, 03:23 PM
No, No, and No...I don't want it. The last time I was sick was 5 years ago when I got a flu shot, and since then I don't bother. My son is 3 years old, and honestly the only time he has been sick was the night he cut his first two teeth. Other then that time, has has never had a snivle, sneeze, or cough...and yes, we chose to not give him the recomended barrage of vacinations when he was born. We're not hippies, or crazy people...we just take the time to research all of the facts that are now out their due to the internet.

Ron99
10-29-2009, 07:44 PM
Ok being very simplistic here so bare with me...

Birds get flu.

Pigs get flu.

People get flu.

People rarely get bird flu or pig flu. Birds rarely get pig flu or human flu. (they sometimes do but apart from H5N1, it's rare)

Pigs are the link here. They can get both human & bird flu.

However, it's not normal for the flu virus to mutate to such a point that pigs can easily infect humans. It's even more rare for that virus to then mutate so that there's human to human contamination.

.

The reason pigs seem to be a link appears to be due to the receptors that they have on their cells that the viruses use to attach and infect them. Birds and human proteins are different enough that the viruses have a hard time making that jump. Pigs seem to have proteins similar to both the bird ones and the human ones so the avian flu can jump to pigs more easilly. Once in the pig the virus can mutate to favour the human type receptor proteins and voila, you now have a virus that can more easily infect humans. Secondly, while a mutation to jump species is rare, mutations in general are much more common (I think I read somewhere the mutation rate in influenza virus is 1.4 per generation so in very simplistic terms within three generations of virus you can have a new strain). Especially in things like viruses and bacteria that reproduce quickly and measure their generations in hours instead of years. Thirdly, influenza virus has the ability to have what might be called virus sex (antigenic shift). So if an unlucky pig were to be infected with both an avian flu virus and a human flu virus at the same time they can swap some genes and you can end up with an avian flu virus that now has picked up some tricks to infect human cells too.

With that level of mutation it's likely that the H1N1 virus will mutate again.

Between 2005 & 2008 only dozen people in the US got swine flu. What changed in 2009? Why the sudden worldwide outbreak? Why does H1N1 not have the protein PB1-F2 & how does this effect the virulence & lethality of the flu?

What likely changed in 2009 was a mutation to make the virus more able able to move from human to human rather than just pig to human. Often humans who work on the farms will catch avian or swine flu but the virus is then not able to go from them to other humans. I suspect it is common for farm workers to catch avian or swine flu but usually they have mild or no symptoms so it likely goes unreported and unknown. But occasionally they may catch a strain that is better able to infect humans and they may have a less mild flu so it is then noticed by the medical professionals. And on that rare occasion we end up with a virus that is more capable of doing the human to human jump and we end up with it now infecting the general population.

Several strains of flu do not produce the PB1-F2 protein and this strain of H1N1 does not either. It is not uncommon and it appears to be a good thing. The PB1-F2 protein appears to increase the virulence of the virus and make it more lethal. It was produced by the viruses that caused pandemics in the past so I guess we are lucky this time. This H1N1 could have been more virulent and deadly had it produced that protein. However, here's the thing. H1N1 does carry the gene for PB1-F2 but it is currently switched off. And while not active at the moment the virus could mutate and the gene could become active so a more virulent strain could emerge. This is one of the reasons vaccination is important. The more people vaccinated, the fewer people get infected and the lower the chance that a more virulent mutation can occur and spread.


The 22m vaccinations with adjuvants you speak of, do these mix fish oils with aluminium & mercury & other undisclosed biologicals? You have the data on this so it'd be great to let us all know.

The mercury compound found in the vaccine, thimerosal is there as an antifungal and antiseptic agent rather than an adjuvant. You want that there so bacteria don't grow in the vaccine and you end up giving people some other infection when you inject them. Firstly, it is a very low toxicity compound that is different than free mercury which is neurotoxic (although that neurotoxicity is reversible) or the organomercury compounds that are considered very toxic. Secondly, this type of mercury compound is actually excreted by your body fairly easily and will be eliminated quickly. Finally it is important to note that it is present in minute amounts and the vaccine contains less mercury then a can of tuna so it is not something to worry about.

The components in the vaccine are as follows:

1. 3.75 micrograms of H1N1 HA protein from the dead virus

2. Squalene. Doing a quick search it looks like the LD50 (the dose that caused 50% of test animals to die) is 1.8 g/Kg(grams per kilogram body weight). The amount of squalene in a dose of vaccine is 10.69 mg or 0.01069 grams. So in an average say 55 kg adult that works out to a dose of 0.00019436 g/Kg which works out to a margin of safety of over 5000:1. So if you gave a bunch of people 5000 vaccine injections to each of those people then about half would die. Of course that is assuming the same LD50 in humans and the LD50 in humans is typically much higher than in mice so the safety margin is likely even higher than that. BTW, that safety margin of 5000:1 is much better then many drugs you take commonly such as tylenol etc. Also, squalene is commonly used by the cosmetic industry in skin moisturizers so you have probably all been exposed to it in the past.

2. 11.86 mg DL-alpha-tocopherol - This is vitamin E. You all like Vitamin E don't you? :)

3. 4.86 mg Polysorbate 80. This is an emulsifier that helps keep the squalene (fish oil) mixed in with the water and other components in the vaccine. It is very common in food and cosmetics and considered safe. I think some studies showed that higher doses of Polysorbate 80 may cause infertility in rats that was at much higher doses then you will see in this vaccine (again, probably needing to inject thousands of doses to get to that level)

The vaccine also contains a number of excipients which are routine additives that are considered safe such as sodium chloride, the above mentioned thimerosal, potassium phosphate, potassium chloride etc.

As for other "undisclosed" biologicals that is not likely. Regulators are very strict about disclosure of what is in your drugs etc. and every ingredient, including water, has to be listed and disclosed. Uou typically have to submit results of independent analysis of your drug to the regulatory bodies. If you want to read about the vaccine check this link:

http://www.gsk.ca/english/docs-pdf/Arepanrix_PIL_CAPA01v01.pdf

When I ask what do you really know, I don't mean in terms of pharmacology, I mean with what's happening on a bigger scale. The larger picture of you will.

You may think it's getting silly to talk of all the different conspiracy theories out there but the one thing they do have in common is population reduction, control over world governments & the end of times.

I'm not saying I believe all those theories, but why discount them & ridicule them? Do you know for sure that everything we're told about the world is the truth?

Anecdotal I know, but I've been advised not to take the H1N1 vaccine by my GP, my partner (pharmaceuticals), the Head of Immunisation for ........ (province name withheld to avoid indentifying him without his permission), a surgeon in the same province, my family doctor in the UK & countless articles in the mainstream & alternative media.

I do think conspiracy theories are silly. Do you really think secret societies of powerful people are controlling the world? Not likely. Have you seen the egos these people have? Can you imagine Donald Trump, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs etc. being able to work together and agree on things to control the world? Not really likely

As for any conspiracy to reduce the human population why do we need a bioengineered flu virus or suspicious vaccines? We have war and famine and to do the job and mother nature is also very good at controlling populations with diseases such as this. So come on, let's be real. I discount and ridicule them because they are extremely implausible and unlikely. There is no real evidence to support them. But they make good stories for Dan Brown, Hollywood and the internet :) I would ask the people advising you not to take the vaccine to explain to you exactly why they are against it and provide sound evidence and reasoning for it.

I'm a scientist and I am all for questioning things as that is the scientific method. But it has to be done in a reasonable and systematic way and conclusions have to be arrived at based on facts, and evidence rather then anecdotes and feelings and fear and misunderstanding.

Also, (and maybe Ron can answer this one too) how does Vit. D (or specifically Vit. D3 according to some) help against H1N1? I understand that it helps against bone dificiencies & helps the absorbtion of calcium & other elements but I'm unsure how it helps against flu.

I'm not being ignorant or arrogant but asking as many questions as I need to help me (& hopefully many others) learn.

.

I'm not really sure if any direct link has been established between vitamin D and flus etc. However, it does appear that with our current diets and habits (more time in front of computers, TV, playstations etc.) we are all getting less sunshine and have lower levels of vitamin D so that can probably have general effects on our health and immune system. It does appear that vitamin D plays a role in production of certain immune system proteins in humans. Probably wouldn't hurt to take some Vitamin D supplements to make sure you are getting what you require and maximize your bodies natural defenses. But it is not going to be a a miracle cure or preventative etc. It may just help you fight the infection if you get it.

Anyhow, I need to get back to work now...

Reef_kid
10-29-2009, 08:35 PM
I believe that everyone should be getting this vaccine , as a biochemist/micro with most of my training in immunology. The H1N1 is getting worse . A person is infected for up to 48 hours befor symptoms. And hits hard! For 7 to 14 days... In which you infecouse and creatibg viral protiens untill your immune system can act..and often peole with compromised immunity are dieing .. By not getting the vaccine your not just putting yourself at risk but you kids family parents... (I don't want to be the one that spreads it to my 1year old nephew or your 80 year old grandmother on the bus that could kill them) the immunology is ty well understood and safe. Sadly that information is not own to the public 90% of the time and that causes the media hype and fear. The general seasonal flu is taken care ofby our immune system however H1N1 is hitting hard. As a science person it's my "strong and personal " opinion that everyone should be vaccinated because it's our responsibility to look after our health!! And the people we love !! If you do get sick stay home... Don't go to the. Doc unless you must.. Drink lots of electrolyte and rest.. For fever ice packs, and tylonal or ibprophan .. Do not over dose on tylonal though.. If your fever is 103 or higher call 811 bc nurse hotline Please stay healthy our fish depend on it:)

pinhead
10-29-2009, 10:57 PM
we just take the time to research all of the facts that are now out their due to the internet.

Unless you are visiting the sites of universities, hospitals, governments or scientific journals, I would be very suspicous and skeptical of information I found on the internet. Anyone can form their own organization, anyone can set up their own website and say whatever they want.

This link http://logisticsmonster.com/2009/10/26/doctors-speak-out-about-h1n1-vaccine-dangers/ has been mentioned as a source of information.

This is from the impressive sounding "4th International Public Conference on Vaccinations (sponsored by the Nat’l Vaccine Information Center) in October, 2009" http://www.nvic.org/default.aspx

Sounds like a scientific conference and a research facility but a little digging would show:

National Vaccine Information Center was founded in 1982 by Barbara Loe Fisher. She formed the Centre after her son suffered convulsions at the age of 2 1/2 and was left with learning disabilities and ADD. She claims this was a result of a vaccination.

Her education is bachelor of arts degree in English from the University of Maryland and she was employed by the New York Life Insurance Company.

Some of the exhibitors at the conference were E-HolisticHealth.com; Homeopaths.ca; Homeopathy Center of Houston;


This information is from someone with no background in science, who has done no real research and is supported by businesses who believe in crap - Homeopaths

Get your advice from the experts. Don't listen to the opinions of people who do not have a background in science or have no expertise in this field.

I would not ask my insurance agent about repairing my car. Why would you listen to them regarding your health.

midgetwaiter
10-29-2009, 11:29 PM
I often wonder what will happen to these anti vaccine nuts if they manage to convince a parent to not vaccinate a child that ends up sterile from the mumps. Try and fix that with Oil of horsesh*t tea.

Ron99
10-29-2009, 11:37 PM
Unless you are visiting the sites of universities, hospitals, governments or scientific journals, I would be very suspicous and skeptical of information I found on the internet. Anyone can form their own organization, anyone can set up their own website and say whatever they want.

This link http://logisticsmonster.com/2009/10/26/doctors-speak-out-about-h1n1-vaccine-dangers/ has been mentioned as a source of information.

This is from the impressive sounding "4th International Public Conference on Vaccinations (sponsored by the Nat’l Vaccine Information Center) in October, 2009" http://www.nvic.org/default.aspx

Sounds like a scientific conference and a research facility but a little digging would show:

National Vaccine Information Center was founded in 1982 by Barbara Loe Fisher. She formed the Centre after her son suffered convulsions at the age of 2 1/2 and was left with learning disabilities and ADD. She claims this was a result of a vaccination.

Her education is bachelor of arts degree in English from the University of Maryland and she was employed by the New York Life Insurance Company.

Some of the exhibitors at the conference were E-HolisticHealth.com; Homeopaths.ca; Homeopathy Center of Houston;


This information is from someone with no background in science, who has done no real research and is supported by businesses who believe in crap - Homeopaths

Get your advice from the experts. Don't listen to the opinions of people who do not have a background in science or have no expertise in this field.

I would not ask my insurance agent about repairing my car. Why would you listen to them regarding your health.

Good information. I didn't even bother to look up the conference or organization as the video had nothing of any actual substance in it but was a collection of sound bites assembled to frighten people and make vaccines look bad. But nobody actually cites any actual research or really even mentions anything specific. Just lots of general nonsense.

EmilyB
10-29-2009, 11:46 PM
I remember some of the same when the seasonal flu vaccines started coming out. I started taking them every year and haven't been sick since. I love that !

I want the H1N1 shot, I wouldn't risk the people I love by passing it along should I get it. Don't much care about the hype.

I can't stand in long lineups because of my back, so I hope there is an alternative way out there.

GreenSpottedPuffer
10-29-2009, 11:49 PM
For anyone who has already had the shot in B.C., what do you need to take with you? Health card or just ID? My fiancee has decided to get it because of her underlying asthma problems. I assumed showing them her prescribed puffer would be enough to prove she has asthma.

intarsiabox
10-30-2009, 12:29 AM
I'm not sure about BC but in Alberta the regular flu shot is free to all family members if one of them has asthma and since the H1N1 shot is free to all canadians I'm sure any ID or the puffer should be adequate.

I really have to wonder if all this conspiracy was around when the polio or small pox vaccines came out. Both of these diseases have almost been totally wiped out because of vaccines. People claim that vaccines are the cause of some other problems but that really doesn't explain the millions of other people who contract these diseases and never received vaccinations of any sort. It's unfortunate that genetic diseases exist but people are born with the gene and science doesn't know enough about gene therapy yet to solve the problems. As a parent I would be angry too if one of my children got a disabling disease and might seek to blame something for it. So I understand why people feel that way but if I took my first ever Tylanol and down the road I developed autism which I bet lots of people who develop the disease has taken the drug I wouldn't blame Tylanol I would blame bad genes. I really don't think people go to university because their life long ambition is to become an evil scientist and destroy the world, I would think most just want to make a positive difference in the world.

Delphinus
10-30-2009, 12:50 AM
I really have to wonder if all this conspiracy was around when the polio or small pox vaccines came out.

I think you nailed it right here. I have to wonder how much paranoia, mistrust, hype and hysteria are around because there are not many left in our current generation who have lived through an actual serious pandemic. If you take a walk through a cemetery old enough to cover the year 1917, it is interesting (and sad) to note how many young people (young adults, children, infants) were laid to rest that year. That was the flu. How many would have been prevented had there been a vaccine?

Myka
10-30-2009, 02:41 AM
Tylenol. ;)

Good information here...makes me wonder about all this. Actually I am stressing about it because I don't know what to do. Usually when I don't know what to do I do nothing.

BlueTang<3
10-30-2009, 03:34 PM
So i am the kind of person who hates needles and doesn't ever get the flu shot cause i dont think its right. We have lived how many years with out it? The H1N1 flu shot scared me since if had never been tested on a human and the fact that it came out so fast. I have heard of a few people who have got the shot and really sick now. But the thing is i held back from getting the shot and came home from the hospital last night with meds and had so many different tests done. I have been diagnosed with H1N1 I can not go out in public, have to stay in a little room by my self, the symptoms i never will wish a pone my worst enemies. I have had a flu but this is much worse. The pain that i am in and the amount i suffer is over the top..

I am not only scared for myself but i am scared for everyone around me. One of the girls i worked with went into the hospital thursday last week and they said she had H1N1 and she passed away tuesday night. Its a crazy fast flu that once you get it will be with you. Hope your body can fight it.

If you have any of the symptoms at all please go get checked. I went to one hospital and since i never had the fever( i had ever other symptom) they told me to go home. I knew i was sick i couldn't walk really or breath and i knew i need to do something about it. So i went to another hospital and they took me in as soon as i told them what was wrong(good way to beat the lines) But i am only 19 years old and it was the scariest time of my life. I went myself and never had anyone there for support. Or to be there for me when they told me. The first thing you think is " am i going to die, what do i do, what about everyone i had been around"

I cant get the shot now since its to late for me. But i want my family and friends to get it cause i dont want to see anyone else like this. You have no places for your self. PLease wash hands after coughing and sneezing. and hand sanitizer if you go anywhere.

Dont mean to sound like you have to go get the shot, but this is my story and i know now if i didn't get sick i wouldn't be saying get it.

Feel free if anyone has symptoms to ask about them. I now have all the symptoms and know what extent they go to. If i can help some else before they get as bad as i am i would be so pleased.

Ron99
10-30-2009, 05:22 PM
Sorry to hear you are so sick. Get plenty of rest and fluids and if you start to get out of breath or find it difficult to breath get to the ER right away.

Parker
10-30-2009, 05:30 PM
After sitting down and talking about it my wife and I decided to get the vacination. With her being a public heath nurse the chances of her coming into contact with someone who is infected were almost guarenteed. The only side affect for me is my arm feels like I got hit with a bat where I got the shot.

wickedfrags
10-30-2009, 05:34 PM
In Ontario (my hospital) we are giving you tylenol after your H1N1 flu shot. Expect the same level of discomfort you experienced after receiving a regular flu shot, perhaps a little more localized pain in the arm. We have given well over 1000 shots in the last 2.5 days...I have done all the medical pre-screening. No significant adverse side effects to date.

Tylenol. ;)

Good information here...makes me wonder about all this. Actually I am stressing about it because I don't know what to do. Usually when I don't know what to do I do nothing.

Ryan L
10-30-2009, 11:33 PM
German military and other European powers are administering adjuvant free vaccines to their soldiers and government workers.

Something is amiss here

nuff said....

kien
10-30-2009, 11:44 PM
has anyone who has taken the vaccine turned into a zombie yet???

.. dang, where'd I put that shotgun..

Myka
10-31-2009, 12:34 AM
I'm all freaked out today because I feel like I am getting sick. Feels like a head cold. I hope it stays that way.

Sorry to hear about your condition BlueTang, and your co-worker. That is scary.

GreenSpottedPuffer
10-31-2009, 03:44 AM
has anyone who has taken the vaccine turned into a zombie yet???

.. dang, where'd I put that shotgun..

Yes. I read about it on the internet.

intarsiabox
10-31-2009, 05:18 AM
I'm all freaked out today because I feel like I am getting sick. Feels like a head cold. I hope it stays that way.

Sorry to hear about your condition BlueTang, and your co-worker. That is scary.

I wouldn't freak out too much, there is still lots of other colds and flus going around not just H1N1. Tis the season! A lot of people that have gotten the swine flu didn't even know they had it, everyone get effected differently. Whether people get the vaccine or not we can't live our lives in fear or paranoia otherwise we're not living at all.

FitoPharmer
10-31-2009, 05:42 AM
here's GlaxoSmithKline's own product fact sheet,
please read:
http://preventdisease.com/news/pdf/GSK_Arepanrix_October_2009.pdf
"List of Excipients
Antigen suspension vial: Thimerosal, sodium chloride, disodium hydrogen phosphate, potassium dihydrogen phosphate, potassium chloride, water for injections. The drug substance contains trace residual amounts of egg proteins, formaldehyde, sodium deoxycholate and sucrose.
Adjuvant emulsion vial: sodium chloride, disodium hydrogen phosphate, potassium dihydrogen phosphate, potassium chloride, water for injections."

then down near the bottom
"What the important nonmedicinal ingredients are:
Thimerosal,a mercury derivative is added as preservative. Each dose contains 2.5 micrograms of mercury. Other ingredients include: squalene, vitamin E, polysorbate 80 and trace amounts of egg proteins, formaldehyde, sodium deoxycholate and sucrose."

then the side effects!
"As with all medicines, AREPANRIX™ H1N1can cause side effects. The very common and common side effects are usually mild and should only last a day or two.
Very common (may occur with more than 1 in 10 doses):
• Pain at the injection site
• Headache
• Fatigue
• Redness or swelling at the injection site
• Shivering
• Sweating
• Aching muscles, joint pain
Common (may occur with up to 1 in 10 doses):
• Reactions at the injection site such as bruising, itching and warmth
• Fever
• Swollen lympth nodes
• Feeling sick, diarrhea
Uncommon (may occur with up to 1 in 100 doses):
• Dizziness
• Generally feeling unwell
• Unusual weakness
• Vomiting, stomach pain, uncomfortable feeling in the stomach or belching after eating
• Inability to sleep
• Tingling or numbness of the hands or feet
• Shortness of breath
• Pain in the chest
• Itching, rash
• Pain in the back or neck, stiffness in the muscles, muscle spasms, pain in extremity such as leg or hand
Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 1000 doses):
• Allergic reactions leading to a dangerous decrease of blood pressure, which, if untreated, may lead to shock. Doctors are aware of this possibility and have emergency treatment available for use in such cases
• Fits
• Severe stabbing or throbbing pain along one or more nerves
• Low blood platelet count which can result in bleeding or bruising
Very Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 10,000 doses):
• Vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels which can cause skin rashes, joint pain and kidney problems)
• Neurological disorders such as encephalomyelitis (inflammation of the central nervous system), neuritis (inflammation of nerves) and a type of paralysis known a Guillain-Barré Syndrome
If any of these side effects occur, please tell your doctor or nurse immediately. If any of the side effects gets serious, or if you notice any side effects not listed in this leaflet, please
tell your doctor."

what concerns me chemically: Thimerosal, formaldehyde, polysorbate 80, squalene.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formaldehyde
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squalene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysorbate_80
or call the company or the people administering the vaccine and ask:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4O8beEBxdQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QKNhgdno10

...... long story short :mrgreen: , i would never get one, especially for a virus as weak as the H1N1.
4000-8000 Canadians will die this year of normal flu. there is so much mis/dis-information out there its hard to make any kind of educated choice so i go with my gut. and for a long time i haven't had the most trust in the government. i mean who would come to trust some person who comes to extort you every year?
ex⋅tor⋅tion
  /ɪkˈstɔrʃən/ [ik-stawr-shuhn]
–noun
1. an act or instance of extorting.
2. Law. the crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority.
3. oppressive or illegal exaction, as of excessive price or interest: the extortions of usurers.
4. anything extorted.
and as for the conspiracy side of this discussion
con⋅spir⋅a⋅cy
  /kənˈspɪrəsi/[kuhn-spir-uh-see]
–noun, plural -cies.
1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.
did someone say Monsanto?
or the IMF?
or the UN for that matter...
history has shown that governments are by far the worst of the isms to plague humanity.
Stalin
Mao
Hitler
i know 2 of the 3 were for drugging the water with chemicals like fluoride to make a docile population.
3 of 3 were for gun control.
3 of 3 were for central banking.
and the list goes on :mrgreen:
the swine flu or h1n1 really is a joke in our world today.
what about the starving and homeless? how many die each year from having no or not enough food, or no or not enough shelter? or have a severely impaired life because of it. or even worse what about the people who die from easily treated diseases, like Diarrhea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diarrhea
i'm sure it makes the 4000-8000 Canadians that die from normal flu every year seem pretty meager.

food for thought?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeYgLLahHv8

marie
10-31-2009, 05:59 AM
....
i'm sure it makes the 4000-8000 Canadians that die from normal flu every year seem pretty meager.

food for thought?

Your right 4000-8000 is pretty meager....until it's your own 13 yr old, otherwise healthy, son/daughter that dies from something as mild as the flu

Ron99
10-31-2009, 06:22 AM
then the side effects!...

These are exactly the same potential side effects from any vaccine ever made. The risk profile is the same. So you're either okay with vaccines in general or you're not. The vast majority of people will have no side effects or at most soreness at the injections site. Some people will feel a bit ill with aches and pains or headaches or nausea etc. This is probably from your immune system ramping up to produce antibodies due to the vaccine.

The uncommon side effects are very rare and do not generally even happen 1 in a 1000.

what concerns me chemically: Thimerosal, formaldehyde, polysorbate 80, squalene.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formaldehyde
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squalene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysorbate_80
or call the company or the people administering the vaccine and ask:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4O8beEBxdQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QKNhgdno10


Do you really believe everything you see on youtube or read on wikipedia? Wikipedia is notoriously inaccurate because anybody from the public can go on there and write or edit content.

Those youtube videos are ridiculous and again are a product of fear and ignorance. The vaccine does not contain elemental mercury or organomercury compounds. Thimerosal has low toxicity and is rapidly excreted from your body anyhow. You need to go back and read my earlier post.

The amount of these components is tiny and well below any level that will cause toxicity. There is less mercury in a shot of vaccine then in a can of tuna (which incidently is in the more toxic organomercury form). If you are that concerned about mercury you better not eat fish anymore.

Squalene is a common ingredient in moisturizing lotions and is also safe unless you take in huge amounts. Trace amounts of formaldehyde means barely detectable in the vaccine. Your own body probably produces more formaldehyde through your own metabolism then you will find in the vaccine and has mechanisms to deal with and excrete it. One thing people need to realize is that pretty much everything and anything is toxic. It all depends on how much you are exposed to. The small amounts of these compounds found in the vaccine are not toxic. I REPEAT, NOT TOXIC.

Sorry to yell but the FUDD being generated around this vaccine is really starting to annoy me. Those youtube videos are nothing but an uninformed layperson panicking over something he clearly does not understand.

While H1N1 is currently not the most deadly flu ever, it is more serious then the normal seasonal flu. It IS causing the deaths of people who would not normally be considered at risk from regular seasonal flu and it IS more dangerous to those with other underlying medical conditions.

My bigger worry is that the more people infected and the more it spreads, the greater the chance it could mutate into an even more virulent and deadly strain. Large scale vaccination can help prevent that.

I think I need to make a youtube video about how H1N1 is going to mutate and kill us all and therefore we all need to be vaccinated:lol:

FitoPharmer
10-31-2009, 06:53 AM
Your right 4000-8000 is pretty meager....until it's your own 13 yr old, otherwise healthy, son/daughter that dies from something as mild as the flu
again million die yearly due to things that are more preventable then h1n1. so i guess at that point i would have to weigh the price of my son/daughter's life against someone else's son/daughter's life.....

Do you really believe everything you see on youtube or read on wikipedia? Wikipedia is notoriously inaccurate because anybody from the public can go on there and write or edit content.

whats the difference between what you say and Wikipedia? bring me some facts bro. your just saying things. not to say they arnt true. i would just like to know your sources on these things:
here is less mercury in a shot of vaccine then in a can of tuna
H1N1 is currently not the most deadly flu ever, it is more serious then the normal seasonal flu
the small amounts of these compounds found in the vaccine are not toxic. I REPEAT, NOT TOXIC.
more people infected and the more it spreads, the greater the chance it could mutate into an even more virulent and deadly strain. Large scale vaccination can help prevent that.
Trace amounts of formaldehyde means barely detectable in the vaccine. Your own body probably produces more formaldehyde through your own metabolism then you will find in the vaccine and has mechanisms to deal with and excrete it.


i was listening to the news yesterday and it said you had about a 1 in 250 thousand chance to get killed by h1n1 in Canada. or:
"Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 1000 doses):
• Allergic reactions leading to a dangerous decrease of blood pressure, which, if untreated, may lead to shock. Doctors are aware of this possibility and have emergency treatment available for use in such cases
• Fits
• Severe stabbing or throbbing pain along one or more nerves
• Low blood platelet count which can result in bleeding or bruising
Very Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 10,000 doses):
• Vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels which can cause skin rashes, joint pain and kidney problems)
• Neurological disorders such as encephalomyelitis (inflammation of the central nervous system), neuritis (inflammation of nerves) and a type of paralysis known a Guillain-Barré Syndrome"
from this vaccine.

lets line the pockets of big pharma some more..... how many doctors will give hard core Amphetamine's and such to children these days? so i don't know how much trust i can put in the medical system anymore.

FitoPharmer
10-31-2009, 07:29 AM
These are exactly the same potential side effects from any vaccine ever made. The risk profile is the same. So you're either okay with vaccines in general or you're not. The vast majority of people will have no side effects or at most soreness at the injections site. Some people will feel a bit ill with aches and pains or headaches or nausea etc. This is probably from your immune system ramping up to produce antibodies due to the vaccine.

The uncommon side effects are very rare and do not generally even happen 1 in a 1000.
what exactly are you talking about? even on the GSK site it says their vaccines contain different additives, and not too surprisingly different side effects. some are more or less dangerous, but it seems evident that the h1n1 is more dangerous then the average booster shot your child gets.
check out the ingredients and side effects of just these few, none seem even similar:
http://www.gsk.ca/english/docs-pdf/Twinrix_PM_20080916_EN.pdf
http://www.gsk.ca/english/docs-pdf/Infanrix-hexa_PM_20080718_EN.pdf
http://www.gsk.ca/english/docs-pdf/Priorix_PM_20081103_EN.pdf
http://www.gsk.ca/english/docs-pdf/Boostrix_PM_20091021_EN.pdf

where do you get the notion that every vaccine is the same and always will be?

pinhead
10-31-2009, 07:36 AM
here's GlaxoSmithKline's own product fact sheet,
please read:
http://preventdisease.com/news/pdf/GSK_Arepanrix_October_2009.pdf
"List of Excipients
Antigen suspension vial: Thimerosal, sodium chloride, disodium hydrogen phosphate, potassium dihydrogen phosphate, potassium chloride, water for injections. The drug substance contains trace residual amounts of egg proteins, formaldehyde, sodium deoxycholate and sucrose.
Adjuvant emulsion vial: sodium chloride, disodium hydrogen phosphate, potassium dihydrogen phosphate, potassium chloride, water for injections."

then down near the bottom
"What the important nonmedicinal ingredients are:
Thimerosal,a mercury derivative is added as preservative. Each dose contains 2.5 micrograms of mercury. Other ingredients include: squalene, vitamin E, polysorbate 80 and trace amounts of egg proteins, formaldehyde, sodium deoxycholate and sucrose."

then the side effects!
"As with all medicines, AREPANRIX™ H1N1can cause side effects. The very common and common side effects are usually mild and should only last a day or two.
Very common (may occur with more than 1 in 10 doses):
• Pain at the injection site
• Headache
• Fatigue
• Redness or swelling at the injection site
• Shivering
• Sweating
• Aching muscles, joint pain
Common (may occur with up to 1 in 10 doses):
• Reactions at the injection site such as bruising, itching and warmth
• Fever
• Swollen lympth nodes
• Feeling sick, diarrhea
Uncommon (may occur with up to 1 in 100 doses):
• Dizziness
• Generally feeling unwell
• Unusual weakness
• Vomiting, stomach pain, uncomfortable feeling in the stomach or belching after eating
• Inability to sleep
• Tingling or numbness of the hands or feet
• Shortness of breath
• Pain in the chest
• Itching, rash
• Pain in the back or neck, stiffness in the muscles, muscle spasms, pain in extremity such as leg or hand
Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 1000 doses):
• Allergic reactions leading to a dangerous decrease of blood pressure, which, if untreated, may lead to shock. Doctors are aware of this possibility and have emergency treatment available for use in such cases
• Fits
• Severe stabbing or throbbing pain along one or more nerves
• Low blood platelet count which can result in bleeding or bruising
Very Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 10,000 doses):
• Vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels which can cause skin rashes, joint pain and kidney problems)
• Neurological disorders such as encephalomyelitis (inflammation of the central nervous system), neuritis (inflammation of nerves) and a type of paralysis known a Guillain-Barré Syndrome
If any of these side effects occur, please tell your doctor or nurse immediately. If any of the side effects gets serious, or if you notice any side effects not listed in this leaflet, please
tell your doctor."

what concerns me chemically: Thimerosal, formaldehyde, polysorbate 80, squalene.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formaldehyde
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squalene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysorbate_80
or call the company or the people administering the vaccine and ask:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4O8beEBxdQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QKNhgdno10

....

Now we're getting a little off topic. This started out with people's real but uninformed fears of the vaccine to weird Libertarian conspiracy theories.

Look at the other Youtube videos by the posters of those 2 videos.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=STEVEDIGIBOYtv#g
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TFPCVideoBlog#g

TFPC is the Truth and Freedom Party of Canada
Here are some of their other ideas: http://tfpc.ca


I'm surprised they have not come up with some theory about the government and big pharma sending their UFO's to spread more flu virus in the spaceship's contrails.

Ron99
10-31-2009, 07:46 AM
whats the difference between what you say and Wikipedia? bring me some facts bro. your just saying things. not to say they arnt true. i would just like to know your sources on these things:


Well, I have university degrees in toxicology and pharmacology and have spent umpteen years working in pharmaceutical R&D as well as diagnostic microbiology labs so I think that makes me more qualified then some guy making youtube videos etc. or people regurgitating stuff on wikipedia :smile: If you really want to do research read things from real scientific websites or publications. Stuff from real experiments and real testing in real labs or real clinical trials with actual data to support the conclusions.

there is less mercury in a shot of vaccine then in a can of tuna

Most testing puts the level of mercury in canned tuna at between .3 and about .55 parts per million (depending on what type of tuna you eat). I won't list all the calculations but that works out to well over 50 micrograms of methylmercury in an average serving of tuna. The vaccine contains 5 micrograms of thimerosal which is also a much less toxic mercury containing compound then methylmercury. if you want to get really picky, thimerosal contains just under 50% mercury by weight so you are getting about 2.5 micrograms of mercury from the vaccine. Methylmercury contains about 93% mercury so your serving of tuna is over 46.5 micrograms of mercury.

H1N1 is currently not the most deadly flu ever, it is more serious then the normal seasonal flu

There have been numerous flu pandemics in the past with much more deadly strains of flu then the current H1N1. Somebody asked earlier about the PB1-F2 protein which is a protein some flu viruses produce that increases their ability to kill the cells they infect. It appears that some of the viruses from those deadlier pandemics did produce PB1-F2. Production of that protein has been shown to cause significantly more inflammation and higher mortality rates in the infected animals. The H1N1 virus does contain the gene to produce the PB1-F2 protein but it is currently turned off by a stop codon in the DNA code (basically a label in the DNA that says do not encode this gene right now). It is not inconceivable that the virus could mutate and this stop codon would be removed therefore activating the PB1-F2 gene and creating a more virulent and deadly strain of H1N1. Don't ask me the odds of that. I'm not a viral geneticist. But I know enough to know it could happen and the odds of it happening are more likely the more the virus reproduces. So reduce the spread of the virus, you reduce the occurrence of viral reproduction and you reduce the number of mutations that occur so therefore there is a lower chance of this mutation happening. The flu virus is constantly mutating, probably in your own body when you catch the flu. The majority of these mutations are either neutral or negative to the virus but statistically speaking, the more often mutations occur the greater the chance of a mutaion that makes the virus stronger.

the small amounts of these compounds found in the vaccine are not toxic. I REPEAT, NOT TOXIC.

Okay, everybody else who is a toxicologist, raise your hand:mrgreen: I do know a bit about this stuff.

more people infected and the more it spreads, the greater the chance it could mutate into an even more virulent and deadly strain. Large scale vaccination can help prevent that.

See above. Basic genetics, evolution and virology.

Trace amounts of formaldehyde means barely detectable in the vaccine. Your own body probably produces more formaldehyde through your own metabolism then you will find in the vaccine and has mechanisms to deal with and excrete it.

I really don't want to get into a whole textbook on biochemistry and physiology. You'll have to trust me on that one or do some reading about it yourself. Your body produces a lot of noxious waste material as it goes about its daily business and it also takes in many toxic compounds normally through our food, water and air. We have evolved wonderful mechanisms to break down and excrete all sorts of things. Formaldehyde is a very common compound in nature and one which your body is more than capable of dealing with unless you are drinking an entire bottle of it.

As for those side effects, that is typical lawyer super conservative stuff. If 1 in 1000 people suffered those kinds of side effects from flu vaccines then there would be a public outcry every flu season and we would not be using them so commonly. The odds of having those severe reactions are probably more like 1 in a million.

FitoPharmer
10-31-2009, 08:00 AM
Now we're getting a little off topic. This started out with people's real but uninformed fears of the vaccine to weird Libertarian conspiracy theories.



I do think conspiracy theories are silly. Do you really think secret societies of powerful people are controlling the world? Not likely. Have you seen the egos these people have? Can you imagine Donald Trump, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs etc. being able to work together and agree on things to control the world? Not really likely

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeYgLLahHv8
so JFK was just pulling our leg?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
or Eisenhower?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdqA4rjrAbM
Woodrow Wilson too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdqA4rjrAbM

yeah, i guess the former presidents of the united states don't have much insight on the true workings of the world we live. don't forget the last answer on the poll guys :mrgreen:

FitoPharmer
10-31-2009, 08:42 AM
It is not inconceivable that the virus could mutate and this stop codon would be removed therefore activating the PB1-F2 gene and creating a more virulent and deadly strain of H1N1
i'm not doubting that. but at the same time didn't this flu come from a random mutation of swine flu, avian flu, and an older strain of influenza that is causing us our problems now? sorry about initial skepticism some people who come up with complex answers like you were in such a short time are often BS'ing :mrgreen: . from the umpteen years working in pharmaceutical R&D as well as diagnostic microbiology lab you must know about the million of different types of bacteria and viruses there are. how many could possibly change and become deadly?
and when that happens do we make a new vaccine for this mutation? and that mutations mutation, untill we receive 3 or 4 seasonal flu shots?
and if we just keep taking a vaccines for every meager illness that comes along what effect will that have on our immune systems in the long term?
do we really understand the processes in which viral natural selection work well enough to start making judgments on whats best for the human immune system over vast amounts of time?
do we ever care to look or think about 10 or even 100 years down the road?
i would agree that some vaccines do outweigh the slight risks (and yes even in my mind they are very slim) but in my mind there are greater challenges killing way more innocent lives in our world that need to be dealt with before making such a hype fest out of this shot. IMO if saving lives is your business, making vaccines is an awful expensive way to go about it.

as for the rest of the toxicology stuff, i must admit i'm not expert.
but whats your opinion on aspartame from a toxicological point of view?
i find one of the few things in our society that is still always innocent until proven guilty are chemicals.
at what point does something safe in small doses start to add up because it in everything?
how many shots will eventually contain these or worse preservatives in the future?
i assume, if we do like you suggest and vaccinate every time a mild virus comes by how many more vaccines might there be in 50 years?
there are many things you can do to naturally stimulate your immune system, like exercise, but look at the obesity problems faced by many. is a shot, that doesn't even give near 100% protection worth the time and effort spent?
would getting more people to eat healthy and exercise have a far greater impact with drastically less costs?

GreenSpottedPuffer
10-31-2009, 10:06 AM
Now we're getting a little off topic. This started out with people's real but uninformed fears of the vaccine to weird Libertarian conspiracy theories.



Conspiracies are not off topic since they are included in the poll. I'm still absolutely amazed at how many people find it that impossible to believe there is more to the world than they know. This is not a world of equals and never will be. Think of the Rothschild family.

Do people really think because they are scientists and can explain every ingredient in a vaccine, off a list that was provided to them, that it means everything is as it seems? I don't mean any disrespect and as I said earlier I don't necessarily think this one is a conspiracy but not everything can be explained in a lab.

Someone please explain to me how it is so impossible for a conspiracy to be possible?

crysmom
10-31-2009, 02:07 PM
I would like to mention something about the mercury comments above- eating 50 micrograms of tuna is very different than injecting 5 micrograms. Your body has all sorts of systems in place to filter out toxins but when you chose to inject the toxins you are bypassing all of those "filter systems"

VFX
10-31-2009, 02:50 PM
Now we're getting a little off topic. This started out with people's real but uninformed fears of the vaccine to weird Libertarian conspiracy theories.


Conspiracies are definitely not off topic. I started this thread & conspiracies very a part of it. This has been a great thread & I hope I'm not the only one to admit learning a thing or to from reading it.

I don't think you can use 'uninformed' as a blanket term to describe people's fears here. There are a lot of people out there who think it's actually the 'uninformed' who have no fear of the H1N1 vaccine.

Great that we have Ron here to provide real scientific answers but also, worrying that so many others ridicule the possibility that so many of us think that something doesn't seem right about the whole thing.

As GSP says, "how it is so impossible for a conspiracy to be possible?"

.

marie
10-31-2009, 04:13 PM
Conspiracies are not off topic since they are included in the poll. I'm still absolutely amazed at how many people find it that impossible to believe there is more to the world than they know. This is not a world of equals and never will be. Think of the Rothschild family.

Do people really think because they are scientists and can explain every ingredient in a vaccine, off a list that was provided to them, that it means everything is as it seems? I don't mean any disrespect and as I said earlier I don't necessarily think this one is a conspiracy but not everything can be explained in a lab.

Someone please explain to me how it is so impossible for a conspiracy to be possible?

It's a man made product, why couldn't they explain every ingredient?

I keep an open mind about the stupid and evil things that the rich and powerful are capable of and nothing would really surprise but one has to use their common sense....Being powerful would be meaningless if you killed off all us little people :razz:

intarsiabox
10-31-2009, 04:50 PM
i mean who would come to trust some person who comes to extort you every year?
ex⋅tor⋅tion
  /ɪkˈstɔrʃən/ [ik-stawr-shuhn]
–noun
1. an act or instance of extorting.
2. Law. the crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority.
3. oppressive or illegal exaction, as of excessive price or interest: the extortions of usurers.
4. anything extorted.

So I guess you built and maintained all the roads you drive on? Pay for the police force so you're not murdered or robbed daily? Pay for the military so you're not working in a concentration camp? Pay for the doctors, hospitals and ambulances for broken bones, cancer, etc.? The endless social list goes on. Talk about thinking that the world owes you a living! The money isn't always spent wisely but all those essential services are there and available to all Canadians. Extortion would imply that you are getting nothing in return but you are just taking for granted everything you have in one of the best countries in the world. Our high standard of living doesn't come free. I bitch about taxes too but people need to stop and think about what hey are getting and also think of others being helped with disabilities or handicaps who would otherwise lead very short miserable lives. I am young, healthy and working and this group pays the most so it is easy to feel ripped off, but health and age change very quickly.:wink:

The Codfather
10-31-2009, 05:02 PM
I can hardy stand to read this anymore, it is obvious to me that some people on here do not have kids or family members. I cannot believe that some people would not get this vaccine to save lives and reduce the chance of severity to family members. I have a six week old baby at home and if i brought this into my house and gave it too my children and something terrible was to happen, i would never forgive myself. Wake up people, this is not some conspiracy, this is the beginning of a pandemic, do what you will, but remember this. If you or your family decide not to take the vaccine, I truly hope you are not the one, sitting at a bedside watching as another is on a ventilator. I cannot and will not take that chance with my family. Bottom line- What are you willing to risk?

GreenSpottedPuffer
10-31-2009, 05:13 PM
It's a man made product, why couldn't they explain every ingredient?

I keep an open mind about the stupid and evil things that the rich and powerful are capable of and nothing would really surprise but one has to use their common sense....Being powerful would be meaningless if you killed off all us little people :razz:

Well in this case I agree that that list of ingredients is probably accurate but I just meant unless people are actually testing it themselves, who's to say the list they are getting is complete. Talk all you want about regulations and testing but there are ALWAYS ways around it.

I don't recall the percentage but its well above 50% and I think closer to 80% of large corporation CEO's show behavioral and emotional characteristics of psychopathy, meaning they show chronic disregard for ethical principles and antisocial behavior. I'm sure many other powerful people/families are no different. Being powerful often times means they do not care in any way, shape or form about the little people. I think the theory of wanting to kill all but 500, 000 million people is out there too but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true that someone or an organization wants it that way and thats my only point...its possible. Dont think it will ever happen.

It wasnt all that long ago there was a dictator who tried to establish a New Order in Europe and came VERY close to succeeding after occupying most of Europe, North Africa and parts of Asia. I dont think people like this are thinking too much about how many of the little guy survive.

But I also dont believe that swine flu or the vaccine are part of any conspiracy...I just dont see how conspiracies are so silly.

Leah
10-31-2009, 05:34 PM
Well my daughter has something. Very high temperature, sore throat, back pain. Started
her on tylenol last night and have been giving it every 4 hours. She say's she feels better this morning and has eaten soup and toast. This really sucks!:sad2:

FitoPharmer
10-31-2009, 08:16 PM
So I guess you built and maintained all the roads you drive on? Pay for the police force so you're not murdered or robbed daily? Pay for the military so you're not working in a concentration camp? Pay for the doctors, hospitals and ambulances for broken bones, cancer, etc.? The endless social list goes on. Talk about thinking that the world owes you a living! The money isn't always spent wisely but all those essential services are there and available to all Canadians. Extortion would imply that you are getting nothing in return but you are just taking for granted everything you have in one of the best countries in the world. Our high standard of living doesn't come free. I bitch about taxes too but people need to stop and think about what hey are getting and also think of others being helped with disabilities or handicaps who would otherwise lead very short miserable lives. I am young, healthy and working and this group pays the most so it is easy to feel ripped off, but health and age change very quickly.:wink:
there are some taxes i have no problem with. gas tax helps pay for roads, cigarette/alcohol/gambling taxes help out health care. education is from your property taxes. but often we are lead to some kind of disillusionment about how our government governs us. it has always and shall be until they change it a government by consent. you have a choice to buy gas, lotto tickets, liquor, or live a city or the country. but as far as the government is concerned income tax is one of those things you just don't have a choice over whether you consent to it or not. if the government finds out you make money lawfully, and you aren't paying your taxes, they arn't going to tell the police to stop protecting you, or doctors to stop treating you, or for you to not drive on highways. they are going to harass you with agents, arrest you and try hard as they can to lock you up for not consenting to their taxation system, another person in jail for a victimless crime. there's no denial of service. plus i would like to add the cost is around 30K per year per male and 50k per female per year to put in jail white collar or not. not to mention the court and enforcement costs of taxes. if i was jailed for not paying income tax it would be a vast net loss to the government, but they don't seem to care, and do it all the time. is it worth the intimidation and incarceration of its people just so they pay their taxes?
but its not just that its unjust, and unlawful to incarcerate someone who doesn't pay taxes. because they aren't just giving you benefits from the government for the exchange of your tax dollars, they are giving you a choice: if you work in Canada we want our cut or else you live in jail. and that's not what i think Canada should stand for. because i doubt everyone lived in a giant prison before income taxes were created during WW1. so whay should that be the case now? the banking/economic systems today is seriously unhealthy if you haven't noticed. i know in the USA today 95% of all wealth is divided among less then 1% of the people, Canada is a little bit better, but not much. our current income tax code does not reflect this great divide in prosperity, and probably never will considering the lobbying powers of the wealthy.

Money as Debt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8)
Money as Debt II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_doYllBk5No)
THE CRIME OF THE CANADIAN BANKING SYSTEM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8Zl1Wax8MI)
please check out the Auditor generals report of 1993.
from the section: Chapter 5—Information for Parliament—Understanding Deficits and Debt
"The cost of borrowing
5.41 The cost of borrowing is the third area that affects the annual deficit. In 1991-92, the interest on the debt was $41 billion. This cost of borrowing and its compounding effect have a significant impact on Canada's annual deficits. From Confederation up to 1991-92, the federal government accumulated a net debt of $423 billion. Of this, $37 billion represents the accumulated shortfall in meeting the cost of government programs since Confederation. The remainder, $386 billion, represents the amount the government has borrowed to service the debt created by previous annual shortfalls.

5.42 We do not take a position on whether budgets should be balanced, or accumulated debt should be reduced. We are simply illustrating the long-term effects of compounding interest charges.

5.43 The amount of debt . The total cost of borrowing is influenced by three factors: the amount of debt, its management, and the rate of interest on the portfolio of debt. Exhibit 5.3 shows that, since Confederation, Canada has consistently used debt financing to cover some of the cost of operations. By the end of World War II, the accumulated debt was at $13 billion, giving a debt-to-GDP ratio of approximately 108 percent. Most observers of government financing would agree that the high debt-to-GDP ratio at the end of World War II was caused by the need to generate substantial industrial production for the war effort without resorting to taxation to cover its full cost. This meant that immediately after the war, there was considerable room for expenditure reduction through cuts in defence spending. "

http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/images/content/93055-e.gif



1976 Swine Flu (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9mh9f_swine-flu-1976-propaganda_webcam)
46 million took the shot. 4000 claimed injury.
46,000,000/4000=1 in 11500
granted it could be more or less, depending on: how many reactions were attributed to swine flu but was another condition, or how many people were injured by the shot and didn't know or said nothing ect.

midgetwaiter
10-31-2009, 11:51 PM
I missed a couple days of this because my "mild" flu took a turn and I couldn't walk without smashing into things. Seriously, if you haven't had this you have no idea.

Blue Tang, sorry about your friend, hope you are feeling better.

Ron99, thanks for your participation, nice to hear from somebody that knows their stuff.

Dingbats and loonies, I've always looked on you people with the type of fondness one shows a three legged dog, it's not your fault you look silly. In this case I have to say your stupidity is putting other people at risk.

Thanks to pinhead we can see that many of the same people that are convinced the flu shot is unnecessary or is going to hurt them also believe that there is a secret program involving planes flying over our cities dumping strange chemicals into the air that modify our behavior. They also believe that the US Government carried out the world trade center attacks, these people are idiots. There is a tendency in our society to be respectful to people regardless of what strange ideas they hold. This is generally a good thing, otherwise we'd have scientologists hanging from trees. However there is a point where good intentioned debate and niceties are no longer appropriate and this point is right at the end of my nose.

Your inability to understand math puts me and my family at risk, that is not okay. 2.5 micrograms of a non toxic mercury compound isn't going to hurt anyone. The squalene additive in the GSK vaccine has been used in 22 million doses in the UK. There is no extraordinary danger in this vaccine, count to 22 million on your fingers and toes.

If someone has a rational question about how this vaccine works I'd love to hear it. Dingbats be quiet, adults are talking.

FitoPharmer
11-01-2009, 12:59 AM
I missed a couple days of this because my "mild" flu took a turn and I couldn't walk without smashing into things. Seriously, if you haven't had this you have no idea.
sorry to hear that.
Dingbats and loonies, I've always looked on you people with the type of fondness one shows a three legged dog, it's not your fault you look silly. In this case I have to say your stupidity is putting other people at risk.
do you remember history? who has done the most damage to humanity? governments. look at Stalin, Hitler, and Mao. Hitler was democratically elected, and his political contributions came from vast sources, even traceable to the British royal family, and the Bush family. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
remember the Canadian government put Japanese in concentration camps during WW2. our governments stupidity and its more then willingness to cover it up is really what costs lives of families.

Your inability to understand math puts me and my family at risk, that is not okay
my ability should have no effect on you. you have a brain, use it, if you want it use it. i personally will not put anything in my body like that unless its a dire circumstance, small pox for example. but again this is choice. again anything anyone says should have no effect on you making choices for your family's health. especially when its on some internet forum or such :mrgreen:.
like it was said by many presidents in one way or another; i am assured that the people, when properly informed, will not fail to act in the appropriate manner.

If someone has a rational question about how this vaccine works I'd love to hear it. Dingbats be quiet, adults are talking.
yeah, so childishness aside.....
what don't you like about what i said?
where are your facts that say no the product information sheet from GSK is wrong? it lists some pretty bad side effects. where are your studies your relying on to prove that what your giving your child is safe?
i'm quoting from government and manufacturing guides.
i just don't like when you make a blanket statement like everyone who thinks there might be something wrong with a vaccine is a "Dingbat" and should "be quiet"

many of the same people that are convinced the flu shot is unnecessary or is going to hurt them also believe that there is a secret program involving planes flying over our cities dumping strange chemicals into the air that modify our behavior. They also believe that the US Government carried out the world trade center attacks, these people are idiots.
1. why do you think that 9/11 was real? because if you believe the government, you are now part of the minority that thinks 9/11 happened exactly as the government said. i would like to know what you base your bashing of other peoples ideas for.
2. no one is talking about chem trails accept for you and pinhead so yeah....
3. why do you sound so sure of everyone's beliefs? look at the poll numbers
55 i'm taking it
64 no
24 it's a conspiracy
we will leave the others out beacuse i would say its a 50/50 chance they get it or not.
so your blanket statements really make it seem like at least 1 in 6 responding to this poll is a nut job.

marie
11-01-2009, 01:46 AM
Well for me the whole point is moot because I can't get my vaccine until the middle of dec at the earliest....If this is a conspiracy to do away with the little people then its a pretty poor one :lol:

midgetwaiter
11-01-2009, 01:58 AM
so your blanket statements really make it seem like at least 1 in 6 responding to this poll is a nut job.

If they are not taking the vaccine because they think:
1) it's some horrible plot by the government to hurt them
2) it's some untested evil thing full of toxins
3) It's a conspiracy to enrich pharm companies
4) The Rothchild's are out to get them

Then yes, nut job fits nicely, although dingbat would still be my preference.

FitoPharmer
11-01-2009, 01:28 AM
If they are not taking the vaccine because they think:
1) it's some horrible plot by the government to hurt them
2) it's some untested evil thing full of toxins
3) It's a conspiracy to enrich pharm companies
4) The Rothchild's are out to get them

Then yes, nut job fits nicely, although dingbat would still be my preference.
wow, no facts, just attacking character and beliefs. how trollish.

GreenSpottedPuffer
11-01-2009, 01:36 AM
If they are not taking the vaccine because they think:
1) it's some horrible plot by the government to hurt them
2) it's some untested evil thing full of toxins
3) It's a conspiracy to enrich pharm companies
4) The Rothchild's are out to get them

Then yes, nut job fits nicely, although dingbat would still be my preference.

I don't believe any one of those is true in this case and am on the fence about getting the vaccine but what makes someone a nut job because they believe in something that is different from what you believe?

So far your the only one throwing names out there and acting childish. You don't have to have the same beliefs as anyone else and that's what makes this such a great country but have some respect dude. Your only response so far is name calling?

Do you really believe that on absolutely NO level what so ever, criminal or political conspiracies exist? Do you really think there are no organizations, government or otherwise that could on some level be trying to deceive you for their own gain?

Please don't assume that those of us who believe in conspiracies believe that planes fly over cities dumping anything or that UFO's are being covered up or that the WHO is trying to kill off most of the world. People love the extremes but they are ridiculous. Its just your way of trying to make people look silly when in fact something like a drug company releasing a virus to cash in on the meds and vaccinations, hand sanitizers, ect. is NOT that out there...I don't believe that this time but how is that not possible?

Look up the word unlikely.

midgetwaiter
11-01-2009, 01:42 AM
wow, no facts, just attacking character and beliefs. how trollish.

The facts have been stated over and over, there is no point in doing so again. There comes a point where politely engaging in reasoned debate becomes self defeating because it legitimizes asinine points of view. In a case where nothing is at stake there may be no consequences but this is a matter of public health. Lending any credibility to this garbage is a huge mistake and trying to refute it reasonably does that.

If it impacts the health of my family I will attack your character, your beliefs and whatever else I get a clean shot at. Wear a cup.

FitoPharmer
11-01-2009, 01:56 AM
The facts have been stated over and over, there is no point in doing so again. There comes a point where politely engaging in reasoned debate becomes self defeating because it legitimizes asinine points of view. In a case where nothing is at stake there may be no consequences but this is a matter of public health. Lending any credibility to this garbage is a huge mistake and trying to refute it reasonably does that.

If it impacts the health of my family I will attack your character, your beliefs and whatever else I get a clean shot at. Wear a cup.
sigh.... again, wow, no facts, just attacking character and beliefs. how trollish.
seriously look at this thread where are these "facts" that "have been stated over and over again"?
the only real facts i see is GSK's own product info sheet....
where are these studies saying this vaccine is 100% safe?
where are the reports saying this vaccine is 100% tested?
where is the study that the vaccine is even worth while compared to other measures?

Veng68
11-01-2009, 02:05 AM
Agree to disagree and move on.

No matter what facts one puts out......... it's not going to change a persons beliefs.

Cheers,
Vic

pinhead
11-01-2009, 02:13 AM
sorry to hear that.
why do you sound so sure of everyone's beliefs? look at the poll numbers
55 i'm taking it
64 no
24 it's a conspiracy
we will leave the others out beacuse i would say its a 50/50 chance they get it or not.
so your blanket statements really make it seem like at least 1 in 6 responding to this poll is a nut job.

The poll conducted on Canreef is unscientific. The key word again is Scientific. There is an area of mathematics called Biometrics or Biostatistics that is used to determine the statistical validity of the data obtained.

The way this poll is set up means you can't base any conclusions on it.

I would expect that most people picked the last choice to be clever and have a little fun rather than actually believing the government or corporations are behind the flu outbreak.

Thats what conspiracy theories, astrology, UFO's, parapsychology and the rest of the pseudosciences should be - entertainment.

When these things start determining your decisions regarding health care - that is your decision. When they effect the decisions regarding the healthcare of your children it is
irresponsible.


If you truly beleve in these things, there is nothing I can do to show you that you are wrong.
You have the right to make mistakes based on your beliefs

However my decisions are based not on beliefs but on evidence - science

FitoPharmer
11-01-2009, 02:52 AM
The poll conducted on Canreef is unscientific. The key word again is Scientific. There is an area of mathematics called Biometrics or Biostatistics that is used to determine the statistical validity of the data obtained.

The way this poll is set up means you can't base any conclusions on it.
the only conclusion i was drawing is that he was kinda being a jerk to 1/6th of the people who responded to this poll by saying if you think its a conspiracy, your mentally unsound in you beliefs and should be disregarded for it.

I would expect that most people picked the last choice to be clever and have a little fun rather than actually believing the government or corporations are behind the flu outbreak.
its fun to tell people what they believe and then tell others they should disregard those people because of their so called beliefs? i may not believe in creationism, but im also not going to say all creationists are Amish, racist, lepers, who also believes that god is waiting to kill all of us at any moment, and electricity is some type of golem waiting in the wall to commit evil acts. you guys seem like you want to shove beliefs and intentions down everyone's throats.


Thats what conspiracy theories, astrology, UFO's, parapsychology and the rest of the pseudosciences should be - entertainment.

focus on the truth.... and yes i find most of that stuff pretty entertaining :lol: . i like provable, logical facts.


When these things start determining your decisions regarding health care - that is your decision. When they effect the decisions regarding the healthcare of your children it is
irresponsible.

make an informed choice. there are varying opinions, and then the so called facts. please check out GSK's own product fact sheet for the vaccine it has been posted a few times already. they even state on the product info sheet this product has side effects. its in the fine print at the bottom :surprise: .


If you truly beleve in these things, there is nothing I can do to show you that you are wrong.
You have the right to make mistakes based on your beliefs

why not? if you have no proof to show me the vaccine is 100% safe and has no side effects, what am i to believe?
again GSK's own product information sheet states there ARE side effects.


However my decisions are based not on beliefs but on evidence - science


that's fine, i just want to know what science? what specific piece or pieces of science makes your decision based on evidence? all i have been asking all along is i would like to see this science. so far what i have seen makes me believe the swine flu shot is not worth the associated risks considering the meager benefit. and until i see proof that says other wise my mind wont be changed, i'm sorry.

pinhead
11-01-2009, 02:58 AM
something like a drug company releasing a virus to cash in on the meds and vaccinations, hand sanitizers, ect. is NOT that out there...I don't believe that this time but how is that not possible?

Not impossible but not very likely.

Occam's razor - entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

interpreted as: the simplest hypothesis is more likely to be the true than are any others

FitoPharmer
11-01-2009, 03:07 AM
Not impossible but not very likely.

Occam's razor - entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

interpreted as: the simplest hypothesis is more likely to be the true than are any others

made up of genetic elements from four different flu viruses – North American swine influenza, North American avian influenza, human influenza, and swine influenza virus typically found in Asia and Europe – "an unusually mongrelised mix of genetic sequences."

whats the simplest hypothesis for four different viruses combining to make our h1n1 of today? a Mexican fertilizer pile baking in the sun or a laboratory?

Myka
11-01-2009, 03:36 AM
After talking to my mom who is a nurse in a doctor's office, she has convinced me to get the vaccine.

She told me that the regular yearly flu shot has contained a very similar H1N1 virus of a weaker strain for several years. This "new" H1N1 isn't anything new at all, it's just a particularly strong strain we are seeing now. Old people aren't getting sick and dying from it because they have likely all been exposed to it many years ago, it's us young'uns that don't have any antibodies against it yet, so it being particularly strong it's kicking out butts.

My mom also said that the adjuvant that everyone is so worried about is not normally used in Canada, but has been used for "hundreds of years" overseas in Europe. She says that the clinic she works in has given several hundred H1N1 vaccines already, and they haven't had any reports of anyone getting any more sick than the usual flu shot (may make you). It's the adjuvant that makes your arm sore though, but it is supposedly no worse than a Tetanus shot.

Anyway...I changed my mind. I'm going to get mine. I have asthma, so I will be able to get mine on Monday.

pinhead
11-01-2009, 05:08 AM
that's fine, i just want to know what science? what specific piece or pieces of science makes your decision based on evidence? all i have been asking all along is i would like to see this science. so far what i have seen makes me believe the swine flu shot is not worth the associated risks considering the meager benefit. and until i see proof that says other wise my mind wont be changed, i'm sorry.

Unfortunately, the evidence I could provide is from scientific journals based on research that is often funded by the government or by industry who are all part of the conspiracy.

Skepticism is fine and an open mind is a neccesary skill in a scientist. Sometimes a new discovery goes very much against our current thinking.

Science does not have all the answers. New experiments or new technology sometimes results in a completely different way of thinking of things.

However, any results must be repeatable and falsifiable.

Vaccine caused you to grow an extra big toe? Show that can happen again and again - except this time under controlled conditions so we know it was the vaccine and not something else. No evidence the vaccine causes you to grow an extra toe? Accepted until there are studies that would indicate something to the contrary.

To true believers, evidence not supporting their ideas is minimalized. They attack the evidence presented rather than providing evidence of their own.

So if you do not accept all the evidence presented to you - what evidence do you have? (and no more youtube or wikipedia)

And Occam's Razor was used to illustrate that between the theory that the pharmaceutical companies engineered H1N1 and released it to increase profits or that it is a naturally occuring pandemic - the former is not very likely.

RuGlu6
11-01-2009, 07:25 AM
I will never ever get a vaccine.I have worked in healthcare and too much information about side effects and other things are kept from the public.I don't buy into the hype.I also didn't vaccinate my children who are now grown.I got a lot of heat from that one.When my youngest was 3 we was hospitalized for bronchitis and they noticed on his chart he was not vaccinated.They also saw a note in his file saying no to vaccines.Well they dosed my kid with vaccines.My son who was perfectly fine changed over night.He was diagnosed with a form of autism 6 months later.He is 19 now.

Sorry to hear about your son. i herd detox works for autism but its a long process.
I agree and so NO to vaccines !

Say YES to Natural products and the main reason is the natural has no side effects, but all synthetic drugs do have side effects.

I think about it this way.. how many viruses are out there 1000's right?, so haw many shots can you take?
On this note have you guys herd about Health Canada bill C6?they are going after natural products .
STOP BILL C6 In CANADA! (http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/government/fraud/uk_australia_canada_government/news.php?q=1253036780)

More so taking a vaccine does Not guarantee that you will not get sick!

FitoPharmer
11-01-2009, 05:26 PM
Unfortunately, the evidence I could provide is from scientific journals based on research that is often funded by the government or by industry who are all part of the conspiracy.
what book/journal? published by who? i dont mind going to the library or the internet to find out. i really don't care who it comes from. i'm only making my choice based on the FACTS SHEET i have gotten from the MAKER of the vaccine.

Skepticism is fine and an open mind is a neccesary skill in a scientist. Sometimes a new discovery goes very much against our current thinking.

"Dissent is the truest form of patriotism"


Science does not have all the answers. New experiments or new technology sometimes results in a completely different way of thinking of things.

However, any results must be repeatable and falsifiable.

they sure don't, and yes it usually takes someone thinking out side the current theories to invent or discover something new or innovative. i would just like to see more science and studies, and i don't mind looking for them if i'm told where or what to look for. but i didnt have to look any farther then GSK's own product fact sheet on the vaccine to see the associated risks were not worth the stated benefits .



Vaccine caused you to grow an extra big toe? Show that can happen again and again - except this time under controlled conditions so we know it was the vaccine and not something else. No evidence the vaccine causes you to grow an extra toe? Accepted until there are studies that would indicate something to the contrary.

To true believers, evidence not supporting their ideas is minimalized. They attack the evidence presented rather than providing evidence of their own.
HISTORY LESSON TIME!!!!
first off look up, Monstanto.
then look up, PCB's.
then look up, Anniston, Alabama.
lets wait and see what the government deems safe for us next!!!!! :mrgreen:


So if you do not accept all the evidence presented to you - what evidence do you have? (and no more youtube or wikipedia)

seriously now, stop toll'n it up bro. why do you constantly wish to avoid my questions about what problems you have with the side effect portion of GSK's own product fact sheet for the vaccine?

****please note:****
GSK's site is NOT i repeat, NOT youtube or wikipedia
GSK's product information site is NOT i repeat, NOT youtube or wikipedia


And Occam's Razor was used to illustrate that between the theory that the pharmaceutical companies engineered H1N1 and released it to increase profits or that it is a naturally occuring pandemic - the former is not very likely.
what makes you say that? i would just like to know your qualifications on understanding microbiological mutations.

RuGlu6
11-01-2009, 07:43 PM
I second wholeheartedly what FitoPharmer is saying.

To the history lessons i would add aspartame which is "safe" according to officials but actually turns in to formalin at body temperatures. just look up what it DOES to the human body!

It is crime, what corporations are doing to us and it is time to wake up !

The mane question is who benefits financially who is the stake holder? Yes its free in Canada so that means taxpayers, WE HAVE to pay.
Mr D. Cheiney is the main guy who invested in these vaccines, so who in the right mind would inject toxic chemicals and half dead virus in to a blood stream, bypassing all natual body means of fighting the virus ? and hope it would boost immunity ? what a joke!
All it does is creates a venue for making money thats all, if that is so hard to get in to someones head then go ahead and inject yourself and your poor kids with this H1N1 tomorrow you will get H2N2 and then H3N3.

tell to get ONE more vaccine to a parent of autistic child and listen to what they will tell you.

Ron99
11-01-2009, 09:53 PM
I'm pretty much at the point that I really don't see the value of contributing here any longer. People are going to believe what they want. You either trust in science and actual experimental evidence or you don't. I guess that's the end of the story and as much as I could wish that everybody was rational and had the knowledge and education to understand these things like I do that's just not reality. Read the entire fact sheet and look at the results of the trials with the vaccine. Nobody had any severe reactions to this vaccine in all their trials. The few people who did become sick or die were determined to have been from other condition such as diabetes or heart attacks etc. unrelated to the vaccine. That list of side effects you are focussing on is because of lawyers wanting to cover the company in the rare chance something like that does happen. Have a look at any vaccine or drug and you will see similar lists of potential side effects. But the odds of them occurring are extremely low. Are they impossible? No. If millions of doses are administered will there be 100% of people with no serious reactions? Probably not. But I am pretty much 100% certain that the incidence of severe reactions will be a few per million doses. That may be little comfort to you if you are one of those few in a million but I would rather be protected then at much higher risk of getting H1N1 because I'm afraid of some unlikely adverse reaction. If I thought like that I would be afraid to leave the house because there is a very slight, however unlikely, chance I will be run over crossing the street.

To those who think "natural"products are safer then drugs and vaccines I think you need to really do more research. The majority of our drugs came from natural sources but we can administer them in pure forms and controlled dosages based on clinical trials in thousands of people. Natural products do not have such controls or restrictions yet. And I could tell you stories such as a weight loss tea from China somebody was wanting to import to the U.S. Turned out it was laced with synthetic amphetamines which acted as an appetite suppressant.

Also, so called "organic" products can actually be more toxic to you then things grown at conventional farms. Mother nature has devised many natural toxins far more potent and harmful then anything we can come up with which are often found in higher concentrations in organic foods.

Anyhow, if anybody wants to discuss any of the science behind the H1N1 virus or vaccines etc. I'll be happy to try to answer what questions I can. The rest of the debate is a bit pointless to me.

Oh, and about aspartame. Don't get me started on that stupid debate. The amount of formalin generated by the metabolism of aspartame is no more then would be generated eating any other proteins because that is just what aspartame is. It is two amino acids linked together that happen to taste sweet. You would have to eat something like 30 pounds of pure aspartame to reach toxic levels of formalin. Again, this is people freaking out because they see that aspartame is broken down into formalin. Oh my god! But nobody asks how much and how that is detoxified in your body etc. You need to dig deeper into things before coming to conclusions. Aspartame IS completely safe in any amounts that anyone will reasonably consume.

Now look...you've got me started again...:smile:

Gizmo
11-01-2009, 10:35 PM
Had the virus, not that big a deal. I would be more concerned about the results of the 1976 innoculation done for H1N1. There were some rather crappy side effects then. Not to mention the lack of testing done on this innoculation. So my question is, did everyone sell their stocks when the Media ruined our economy a year ago? Its just another thing the Media blows out of proportion, the economy is recovering nicely (in canada anyway) and they need something else to scare people with. Hundreds of thousands die each year from the regular flu. a couple hundred die from this virus and its a "epidemic" Let the sheep follow... :rolleyes:

intarsiabox
11-01-2009, 11:15 PM
another person in jail for a victimless crime. if i was jailed for not paying income tax it would be a vast net loss to the government, but they don't seem to care, and do it all the time.

If everyone felt like you your "victemless crime" would hurt millions of people. I used to work in accounting and received lots of government garnishment orders for people avoiding taxes, not one went to jail they just had to start paying what they owed like every other Canadian. You state it as a fact that people in Canada are jailed "all the time" for not paying taxes. Lets see some back-up of this, what percentage of tax evaders get sent to jail instead of having to pay. You said so yourself it costs money to put these people in jail and the gov't wants the money not more debt load, your claim makes no sense. If you feel things are so wrong and corrupt here, the government is out to get you and things are better elsewhere, then Canada has a right that every Canadian is entitled to, the right to leave. Just the fact that we can post messages like this without punishment should tell you something. No ones forcing anybody to take the H1N1 vaccine it is personal CHOICE not a requirement. If you don't want the shot then don't get it, it's that simple.

bignose
11-02-2009, 02:33 AM
Statistics say your more likely to die from the common flu than from swine flu.
Personally I think there is alot more risk driving here in Edmonton than the H1N1!:lol:

intarsiabox
11-02-2009, 03:00 AM
Last year in Edmonton there were 21 traffic fatalities. There is about 1 million people in the greater Edmonton area so statistically there is only about a 21 in a million chance of dying in a car accident here. Should I take out the car seats for my 2 girls and stop making them wear seat belts? Statistics aren't very comforting if you or a loved one is one of the 21. As a parent it is my responsibility to do everything I can to protect my family and if putting on a seat belt lessens the risk to 1 in million then I will do it. I personaly would never base a decision on statistics because if you are the unlucky one then the statistical rate is 1:1.

pinhead
11-02-2009, 04:07 AM
I also finding this discussion becoming tedious so I think this will be my last contribution. It is truly unfortunate that there are people who continue to hold views in light of evidence to the contrary. A few last comments.

i would just like to see more science and studies, and i don't mind looking for them if i'm told where or what to look for.

This how you do journal research in science. There is a tool called MEDLINE (Medical Literature Analysis and Retrieval System) which allows you to do a search in about 5000 scientific journals.

Searching H1N1 vaccine, I get 1217 journal references for h1n1 vaccine - 46 for the month of October alone. You would then have to go to a university biomedical library to read these articles as they are subscription based and very few are available for free.

Other searches yield about 3500 references for H1N1 and 3000 for H5N1 on which the Arepanrix vaccine was based upon.

what problems you have with the side effect portion of GSK's own product fact sheet for the vaccine?

This are the risks directly from the vaccines' patient information sheet.

Very common (may occur with more than 1 in 10 doses): Pain at the injection site, Headache, Fatigue, Redness or swelling at the injection site, Shivering, Sweating, Aching muscles, joint pain
Common (may occur with up to 1 in 10 doses):Reactions at the injection site such as bruising, itching and warmth, Fever, Swollen lympth nodes, Feeling sick, diarrhea
Uncommon (may occur with up to 1 in 100 doses): Dizziness, Generally feeling unwell, Unusual weakness, Vomiting, stomach pain, uncomfortable feeling in the stomach or belching after eating, ability to sleep, Tingling or numbness of the hands or feet, Shortness of breath, Pain in the chest, Itching, rash, Pain in the back or neck, stiffness in the muscles, muscle spasms, pain in extremity such as leg or hand
Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 1000 doses): Allergic reactions leading to a dangerous decrease of blood pressure, which, if untreated, may lead to shock. Doctors are aware of this possibility and have emergency treatment available for use in such cases, Fits, Severe stabbing or throbbing pain along one or more nerves, Low blood platelet count which can result in bleeding or bruising
Very Rare (may occur with up to 1 in 10,000 doses): Vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels which can cause skin rashes, joint pain and kidney problems), Neurological disorders such as encephalomyelitis (inflammation of the central nervous system), neuritis (inflammation of nerves) and a type of paralysis known a Guillain-Barré Syndrome

Most of the side effects are what you would expect with any vaccination - pain, bruising and swelling. I would expect the list of rare side effects is there for legal reasons so someone could not say they were uninformed.

For comparison, here is a list of possible side effects from the information sheet for Alka Seltzer: nausea, vomiting, ringing in ears, diminished hearing, confusion, agitation, lethargy, fever, coma, respiratory alkalosis, metabolic acidosis, convulsions, pulmonary edema, cardiovascular collapse.


One last word on Aspartame. A medline search of 111 references regarding Aspartame toxicity gives us the publicly accessible reference. Note the last line in the abstract - Aspartame is safe!

Crit Rev Toxicol. 2007;37(8):629-727.

Aspartame: a safety evaluation based on current use levels, regulations, and toxicological and epidemiological studies.
Magnuson BA, Burdock GA, Doull J, Kroes RM, Marsh GM, Pariza MW, Spencer PS, Waddell WJ, Walker R, Williams GM.

Burdock Group, Washington, DC, USA. bmagnuso@umd.edu

Aspartame is a methyl ester of a dipeptide used as a synthetic nonnutritive sweetener in over 90 countries worldwide in over 6000 products. The purpose of this investigation was to review the scientific literature on the absorption and metabolism, the current consumption levels worldwide, the toxicology, and recent epidemiological studies on aspartame. Current use levels of aspartame, even by high users in special subgroups, remains well below the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and European Food Safety Authority established acceptable daily intake levels of 50 and 40 mg/kg bw/day, respectively. Consumption of large doses of aspartame in a single bolus dose will have an effect on some biochemical parameters, including plasma amino acid levels and brain neurotransmitter levels. The rise in plasma levels of phenylalanine and aspartic acid following administration of aspartame at doses less than or equal to 50 mg/kg bw do not exceed those observed postprandially. Acute, subacute and chronic toxicity studies with aspartame, and its decomposition products, conducted in mice, rats, hamsters and dogs have consistently found no adverse effect of aspartame with doses up to at least 4000 mg/kg bw/day. Critical review of all carcinogenicity studies conducted on aspartame found no credible evidence that aspartame is carcinogenic. The data from the extensive investigations into the possibility of neurotoxic effects of aspartame, in general, do not support the hypothesis that aspartame in the human diet will affect nervous system function, learning or behavior. Epidemiological studies on aspartame include several case-control studies and one well-conducted prospective epidemiological study with a large cohort, in which the consumption of aspartame was measured. The studies provide no evidence to support an association between aspartame and cancer in any tissue. The weight of existing evidence is that aspartame is safe at current levels of consumption as a nonnutritive sweetener.

EmilyB
11-02-2009, 05:50 AM
:sick: It's too late for me I think....

FitoPharmer
11-02-2009, 06:01 AM
If everyone felt like you your "victemless crime" would hurt millions of people. I used to work in accounting and received lots of government garnishment orders for people avoiding taxes, not one went to jail they just had to start paying what they owed like every other Canadian. You state it as a fact that people in Canada are jailed "all the time" for not paying taxes. Lets see some back-up of this, what percentage of tax evaders get sent to jail instead of having to pay.
i dont know the % and personally i don't care when it comes to taking peoples freedoms there is no 99.9% of the time is good enough. but that's a personal belief. however, here is the facts from my good pals at CRA
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/nwsrm/rlss/2008/m01/nr080123-eng.html
"26 offenders to more than 37 years in prison. Sentences for those who were ordered to serve jail time for tax-related offenses ranged from 1 month to 3 years."
owch, personally i don't think that's worth it. no one should be jailed for tax evasion considering no harm was technically done.


You said so yourself it costs money to put these people in jail and the gov't wants the money not more debt load, your claim makes no sense.
since your an a accountant i'm sure how you can see these costs can add up.
(37 years jail time) X ($25,000 per year to jail an inmate.)= $925,000 / (26 people imprisoned) = ~35,000 per person. what amount of tax collection from these people will justify their imprisonment to you?


If you feel things are so wrong and corrupt here, the government is out to get you and things are better elsewhere, then Canada has a right that every Canadian is entitled to, the right to leave.
i feel that our government has not been looking out for citizens like it should for a long time. what makes you think i would leave such a beautiful country, , what it stands for, and our constitution / bill of rights?. do you believe in freedom of speech and do you think that is part of what Canada is all about?
there is nothing wrong with question income taxes. especially since direct taxation by the federal government used to be unlawful , again.... history. before ww1, no income tax, after ww1 income tax. basic high school history at that.


Just the fact that we can post messages like this without punishment should tell you something. No ones forcing anybody to take the H1N1 vaccine it is personal CHOICE not a requirement.

i agree our freedom of speech is intact and a wonderful thing. it however it being intact today could mean many things though.
i never said or remember anyone who said the h1n1 vaccine is a requirement... that definition/example was given to help illustrate how the government doesn't really care about the welfare of its people not suggest they are willing to extort us to take vaccines.


If you don't want the shot then don't get it, it's that simple.


i won't. just like i wont stop with the truth bullets. :mrgreen:

VFX
11-02-2009, 06:47 AM
This thread is becoming a bit pointless with all the bickering & the tangents in which some people are headed.

The point is a gathering of thoughts & opinions on the H1N1 Virus & it's associated Vaccines.

Scientific data, conspiracy theories, news reports, personal experiences count for more than arguments about tax collection & not so subtle side swipes & insults towards each other.

I obviously have no moderator authority here, but I did start this thread & politely ask that it stays on topic so it can remain a useful point of info/interest, and I also ask that it remains friendly.

Nobody wants anything bad to happen to any of us or our loved ones, hence the big debate. But knocking someone else's beliefs with insults isn't nice whether it's religion, politics or swine flu we're talking about.

Please keep an open mind & be safe.

Thanks.

Sermon over! :mrgreen:

.

FitoPharmer
11-02-2009, 07:33 AM
I'm pretty much at the point that I really don't see the value of contributing here any longer.
NO Ron, we need you! i was really hoping as an actual scientist you would have something scientific for me that proves that this swine flu vaccine is safer the the last one....
I also finding this discussion becoming tedious so I think this will be my last contribution.
why? all i have been asking for is some real facts, or for someone to say "it's this study, done by this place that proves its safer then the last swine flu vaccine just go look it up".


It is truly unfortunate that there are people who continue to hold views in light of evidence to the contrary.
what evidence?
A few last comments.
but not facts? just comments?


This how you do journal research in science. There is a tool called MEDLINE (Medical Literature Analysis and Retrieval System) which allows you to do a search in about 5000 scientific journals.

Searching H1N1 vaccine, I get 1217 journal references for h1n1 vaccine - 46 for the month of October alone. You would then have to go to a university biomedical library to read these articles as they are subscription based and very few are available for free.

Other searches yield about 3500 references for H1N1 and 3000 for H5N1 on which the Arepanrix vaccine was based upon.
that's nice...... have you done this? so there is 3500 references for h1n1 did you read any of them?



This are the risks directly from the vaccines' patient information sheet.

Very common (may occur with more than 1 in 10 doses): Pain at the injection site, Headache, Fatigue, Redness or swelling at the injection site, Shivering, Sweating, Aching muscles, joint pain
Common (may occur with up to 1 in 10 doses):Reactions at the injection site such as bruising, itching and warmth, Fever, Swollen lympth nodes, Feeling sick, diarrhea
Uncommon (may occur with up to 1 in 100 doses): Dizziness, Generally feeling unwell, Unusual weakness, ....

you know what else the "PRODUCT INFORMATION LEAFLET" says:
"Among Arepanrix™ H5N1 or Pandemix™ H5N1 recipients, five (<0.1%) had fatal serious adverse events, including two instances of ovarian carcinoma, a metastatic malignancy of unspecified type, a myocardial infarction, and exacerbation of diabetes mellitus and hepatic cirrhosis. Among placebo recipients, three (0.1%) sustained fatal serious adverse events one instance of brain neoplasm, one instance of cardiomegaly secondary to chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and one instance of bilateral pneumonia. During six months of follow-up for the entire group of 9,873 Arepanrix™ or Pandemrix™ H5N1 recipients, 7 (<0.1%) reported an Adverse Event of Special Interest as defined by EMEA. Four subjects reported facial palsy (Bell’s palsy) at intervals ranging from hours to 135 days after vaccine exposure; all of these resolved spontaneously and completely. A 45 year old male had an anaphylactic reaction to food six (6) days after first exposure to H5N/AS03 vaccine, and a 25 year old white female had a single episode of convulsions 35 days after the second dose. None of these Adverse Events of Special Interest was assessed as treatment-related by the investigators. One 48 year old female had “neuritis” with onset almost immediately after injection. Symptoms were localized entirely to the injected arm and compatible with a perineural injection injury; the problem resolved spontaneously. Eleven of 9,873 (0.1%) Arepanrix™ or Pandemrix™ H5N1 recipients were reported to have potential immune-mediated diseases. Diagnoses included two instances of psoriasis, four instances of polymyalgia rheumatica (all in 59 to 84 year-old women, three of whom had symptoms antedating vaccine), and one instance each of Grave’s disease, uveitis, scleroderma, isolated IVth nerve palsy, and erythema nodosum. None of these was assessed as a serious adverse event or as related to the investigational vaccine by the investigators."

"Pain at the injection site was the most commonly reported solicited local symptom in both Arepanrix™ H5N1 and placebo groups and was reported at a 6-fold higher frequency (i.e. following 73% of doses) in the Arepanrix™ H5N1 group. Despite the high incidence of injection site pain, the incidence of severe pain was low, with reports occurring after 2.7% of Arepanrix™ H5N1 doses and 0.4% of placebo doses. Overall, severe solicited or unsolicited adverse events of any type occurred in the 7 days after 6.4 to 7.0% of Arepanrix™ H5N1 doses and 3.6% of placebo doses. The most common severe solicited adverse event was local injection site pain; all severe general solicited adverse events occurred after <2% of doses.
Other/Additional adverse reactions reported are listed according to the following frequency classification:
Very common (≥1/10)
Common (≥1/100 to <1/10)
Uncommon (≥1/1,000 to <1/100)
Rare (≥1/10,000 to <1/1,000)
Very rare (<1/10,000)
Not known (cannot be estimated from the available data)
Blood and lymphatic system disorders
Common: lymphadenopathy
Psychiatric disorders
Uncommon: insomnia
Nervous system disorders
Uncommon: dizziness, paraesthesia
Ear and labyrinth disorders
Uncommon: vertigo
Respiratory, thoracic and mediastinal disorders
Uncommon: dyspnoea
Gastrointestinal disorders
Common: nausea, diarrhoea
Uncommon: abdominal pain, vomiting, dyspepsia, stomach discomfort
Skin and subcutaneous tissue disorders
Common: pruritus
Uncommon: rash
Musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders
Uncommon: back pain, musculoskeletal stiffness, neck pain, muscle spasms, pain in extremity
General disorders and administration site conditions
Common: injection site reactions (such as bruising, pruritus, warmth)
Uncommon: asthenia, chest pain, malaise"


I would expect the list of rare side effects is there for legal reasons so someone could not say they were uninformed.
have you even read the information sheet? they are not in there for insurance or legal reasons.


For comparison, here is a list of possible side effects from the information sheet for Alka Seltzer: nausea, vomiting, ringing in ears, diminished hearing, confusion, agitation, lethargy, fever, coma, respiratory alkalosis, metabolic acidosis, convulsions, pulmonary edema, cardiovascular collapse.
whats the chances? 1 in 10? 1 in 1000? 1 in 100000000? and i don't ever remember anyone saying "here kids take an alka-seltzer just in case!"


One last word on Aspartame. A medline search of 111 references regarding Aspartame toxicity gives us the publicly accessible reference. Note the last line in the abstract - Aspartame is safe!

Crit Rev Toxicol. 2007;37(8):629-727.

Aspartame: a safety evaluation based on current use levels, regulations, and toxicological and epidemiological studies.
Magnuson BA, Burdock GA, Doull J, Kroes RM, Marsh GM, Pariza MW, Spencer PS, Waddell WJ, Walker R, Williams GM.

Burdock Group, Washington, DC, USA. bmagnuso@umd.edu

Aspartame is a methyl ester of a dipeptide used as a synthetic nonnutritive sweetener in over 90 countries worldwide in over 6000 products. The purpose of this investigation was to review the scientific literature on the absorption and metabolism, the current consumption levels worldwide, the toxicology, and recent epidemiological studies on aspartame. Current use levels of aspartame, even by high users in special subgroups, remains well below the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and European Food Safety Authority established acceptable daily intake levels of 50 and 40 mg/kg bw/day, respectively. Consumption of large doses of aspartame in a single bolus dose will have an effect on some biochemical parameters, including plasma amino acid levels and brain neurotransmitter levels. The rise in plasma levels of phenylalanine and aspartic acid following administration of aspartame at doses less than or equal to 50 mg/kg bw do not exceed those observed postprandially. Acute, subacute and chronic toxicity studies with aspartame, and its decomposition products, conducted in mice, rats, hamsters and dogs have consistently found no adverse effect of aspartame with doses up to at least 4000 mg/kg bw/day. Critical review of all carcinogenicity studies conducted on aspartame found no credible evidence that aspartame is carcinogenic. The data from the extensive investigations into the possibility of neurotoxic effects of aspartame, in general, do not support the hypothesis that aspartame in the human diet will affect nervous system function, learning or behavior. Epidemiological studies on aspartame include several case-control studies and one well-conducted prospective epidemiological study with a large cohort, in which the consumption of aspartame was measured. The studies provide no evidence to support an association between aspartame and cancer in any tissue. The weight of existing evidence is that aspartame is safe at current levels of consumption as a nonnutritive sweetener.
from personal experience i know aspartame to be toxic. i know way to many people who had serious and often quite unusual or rare health problems mysteriously disappear without any treatment, just by removing usually either diet soda, or gum from their diet. i have seen many studies for and against it. many say it may have something more to do with the breakdown ingredients of Aspartame that greatly increase in concentration when stored at high temperatures. in my mind this one is still very much up in the air.

findingnemo1
11-02-2009, 02:49 PM
Okay we'll here is what i know is the TRUTH!!!!

This gives the word "flu" a whole new meaning. I have had the "normal" seasonal flu and ya it sucks. But THIS is a whole new world. I can tell you exactly the min it hit me. And it hits you like a semi truck from min one and doesn't let up for at least a week.I was laid out for 10 days and i still get tired easily and still have the cough etc. I spent 300 in antibiotics and had to take 11 days off of work. I exposed my children and husband and pray that they dont get it as i was to sick to get them out for there shots. I had to struggle to breath and i ran a fever of 40-41.5 for 5 days. I couldn't sleep and i couldn't eat and my chest has never felt that bad from not coughing. I had to go back to the urgent care 5 days into it for new medication and just sitting in a waiting room is hard work.
I SHUDDER at the thought of some young child getting this. I had a hard time fighting it off and i am healthy. The same goes for the ederly. There is no way they can fight this. I am healthy we take viatmins we eat good. I get a decent amnt of sleep but let me tell you this is not the seasonal flu people.

Yes we all have to make our own decisions based on our own beliefs. But i am here to tell you this is like no other. I would not wish that upon anyone.
I cannot stress how this is unlike the normal "Flu"
Its not its a killer and u don't want it. You don't want your children,spouse,parents to get this. It is a fight from the second you get it.

I normally do not over vaccinate my children or animals for that matter. But this one they WILL get. I could not stand to see them suffer like i did.

Make your own decisions that you feel good about.

FitoPharmer
11-02-2009, 03:38 PM
I spent 300 in antibiotics and had to take 11 days off of work.

antibiotics? that means they were treating you for a bacterial infection, not h1n1? i thought the only thing they could treat flu with was tamaflu because is a virus?
and have you ever tried colloidal silver? its one of natures most powerful antibiotics, and is cheap! it really helped clear up my seasonal flu or whatever this year.




I normally do not over vaccinate my children or animals for that matter. But this one they WILL get. I could not stand to see them suffer like i did.
i was to the understanding that even if you get the flu really bad and are down and out for even a few weeks it is technically a good thing every once and a while, as long as you don't die from it. getting the real flu will build your immune system much better then just taking the shot.

Stevey87
11-02-2009, 07:33 PM
I keep reading news reports of so far whatever number of people died of swine flu in the world but there are so many more people dying from regular flu that happens to be strong. Once in a while we get strong flu warnings and stuff and people die from those too, especially young and old. I really don't think the swine flu is as bad as the media makes it out to be, but I'm not a licensed physician so it's just a personal opinion. A couple of days ago I read an article saying that most people that had the swin flu and recovered said that it was like a normal flu. Not sure if it was a reliable source tho. I think the best thing to do is wash when you get home and eat healthy.

RuGlu6
11-03-2009, 03:38 AM
Okay we'll here is what i know is the TRUTH!!!!

This gives the word "flu" a whole new meaning. I have had the "normal" seasonal flu and ya it sucks. But THIS is a whole new world. I can tell you exactly the min it hit me. And it hits you like a semi truck from min one and doesn't let up for at least a week.I was laid out for 10 days and i still get tired easily and still have the cough etc. I spent 300 in antibiotics and had to take 11 days off of work. I exposed my children and husband and pray that they dont get it as i was to sick to get them out for there shots. I had to struggle to breath and i ran a fever of 40-41.5 for 5 days. I couldn't sleep and i couldn't eat and my chest has never felt that bad from not coughing. I had to go back to the urgent care 5 days into it for new medication and just sitting in a waiting room is hard work.
I SHUDDER at the thought of some young child getting this. I had a hard time fighting it off and i am healthy. The same goes for the ederly. There is no way they can fight this. I am healthy we take viatmins we eat good. I get a decent amnt of sleep but let me tell you this is not the seasonal flu people.

Yes we all have to make our own decisions based on our own beliefs. But i am here to tell you this is like no other. I would not wish that upon anyone.
I cannot stress how this is unlike the normal "Flu"
Its not its a killer and u don't want it. You don't want your children,spouse,parents to get this. It is a fight from the second you get it.

I normally do not over vaccinate my children or animals for that matter. But this one they WILL get. I could not stand to see them suffer like i did.

Make your own decisions that you feel good about.

Just remember this: VACCINATION DOES NOT GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL NOT GET A FLU !!!
Side effect of the vaccine is worse then the flu itself, and they are long term which makes a long term customer to big farma.
Read the actual MSDS on the vaccine and then make your decision before your children take it!
Do your home work, don't trust someone who told you its safe!

RuGlu6
11-03-2009, 03:41 AM
i was to the understanding that even if you get the flu really bad and are down and out for even a few weeks it is technically a good thing every once and a while, as long as you don't die from it. getting the real flu will build your immune system much better then just taking the shot.


So true !

macky
11-03-2009, 08:02 PM
I am a registered nurse and refuse to get the vaccine for seasonal flu and H1N1 for myself and my family.
I have always been opposed to the seasonal flu shot and I have always believed that "getting the real flu will build your immune system much better then just taking the shot.", as stated before in this thread.
I personally know several people that have had H1N1 flu and from what I have been told it was the most mild flu experience these people have ever had. If you have had the flu this season you have more than likely had H1N1.
You do not take antibiotics for the flu as it is a virus. So, if you have been terribly ill and have been prescribed antibiotics it is not the flu or is a combination of the flu and something else.
If you want to stay healthy in the winter take vitamin D and C.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15ycdbSsnAU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--NqqB2nhBE

Doctors and Health Professionals Warning Citizens NOT To Take Swine Flu Vaccine - Very Dangerous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s2Aq1ZbXtw

Some info from 60 minutes about the swine flu of 1976.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/670.html

Do NOT Let Your Child Get Flu Vaccine -- 9 Reasons Why
from http://www.mercola.com/
1.The swine flu is simply another flu. It is not unusually deadly.
2.This is the first time both seasonal and pandemic flu vaccines will be administered. Both seasonal flu and swine flu vaccines will require two inoculations. This is because single inoculations have failed to produce sufficient antibodies. This is an admission that prior flu vaccines were virtually useless. Can you trust them this time?
3. Adjuvants are added to vaccines to boost production of antibodies but may trigger autoimmune reactions. Some adjuvants are mercury (thimerosal), aluminum and squalene. Why would you sign a consent form for your children to be injected with mercury, which is even more brain-toxic than lead?
4.This is the first year mock vaccines have been used to gain FDA approval. The vaccines that have been tested are not the same vaccines your children will be given.
5.Over-vaccination is a common practice now in America. American children are subjected to 29 vaccines by the age of two. Meanwhile, veterinarians have backed off of repeat vaccination in dogs because of observed side effects.
6.Modern medicine has no explanation for autism, despite its continued rise in prevalence. Yet autism is not reported among Amish children who go unvaccinated.
7.Researchers are warning that over-use of the flu vaccine and anti-flu drugs like Tamiflu and Relenza can apply genetic pressure on flu viruses and then they are more likely to mutate into a more deadly strain.
8.Most seasonal influenza A (H1N1) virus strains tested from the United States and other countries are now resistant to Tamiflu (oseltamivir). Tamiflu has become a nearly worthless drug against seasonal flu.According to data provided by the Centers for Disease Control, among 1148 seasonal flu samples tested, 1143 (99.6%) were resistant to Tamiflu!
9.Public health officials are irresponsible in their omission of any ways to strengthen immunity against the flu. No options outside of problematic vaccines and anti-flu drugs are offered, despite the fact there is strong evidence that vitamins C and D activate the immune system and the trace mineral selenium prevents the worst form of the disease.

Good luck.

intarsiabox
11-04-2009, 01:14 AM
My wife is a nurse who works in hospital and she knows nothing more about H1N1 vaccinations than anyone else in the general public. She had to get all of her info the same way everyone else does. Just because someone is in the medical field doesn't mean they are research scientists or are vaccine experts by any means. Medical doctors prescribe the drugs and nurses administer it, they don't develop it.

wickedfrags
11-04-2009, 01:32 AM
Agreed, I have been answering questions from over 1200 nurses, physicians, residents, staff and students over the past 4 days. While some are more knowledgeable that others, the level of knowledge among those in the health care field varies greatly (not surprisingly).

What is interesting is learning why health care professionals people decide to take the shot and why they feel it is not necessary.

From a professional perspective, I feel there is no good, responsible reason for a front line health care worker to not get the shot given the high risk nature of the service they provide.

My wife is a nurse who works in hospital and she knows nothing more about H1N1 vaccinations than anyone else in the general public. She had to get all of her info the same way everyone else does. Just because someone is in the medical field doesn't mean they are research scientists or are vaccine experts by any means. Medical doctors prescribe the drugs and nurses administer it, they don't develop it.

midgetwaiter
11-04-2009, 05:58 AM
Doctors and Health Professionals Warning Citizens NOT To Take Swine Flu Vaccine - Very Dangerous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s2Aq1ZbXtw


Another videos posted by this youtube user:

October 27 - AIDS Virus Deliberately Put In Vaccines For Depopulation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtLi8isr-AY

Spoiler: The Freemasons did it, my grandpa and his drinking buddies are evil.

macky
11-04-2009, 06:03 AM
I disagree. Here a lot of good reason why not to get the vaccine.
H1N1 Vaccine ingredients:

aluminum hydroxide
aluminum phosphate
ammonium sulfate
amphotericin B
animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
dog kidney, monkey kidney,
chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
calf (bovine) serum
betapropiolactone
fetal bovine serum
formaldehyde
formalin
gelatin
glycerol
human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
hydrolized gelatin
monosodium glutamate (MSG)
neomycin
neomycin sulfate
phenol20red indicator
phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
potassium diphosphate
potassium monophosphate
polymyxin B
polysorbate 20
polysorbate 80
porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
residual MRC5 proteins
sorbitol
sucrose
thimerosal (mercury)
tri(n)butylphosphat e,
VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
washed sheep red blood cells

Just because some of us are healthcare workers doesn't mean that we should have all this **** injected in our bodies. There is virtually no evidence that vaccines work in the first place.

Ron99
11-04-2009, 06:28 AM
HOLY CRAP PEOPLE. STOP BEING STUPID!!!

Sorry to yell and be rude but honestly, use your heads. Most of the stuff below is not in the vaccine and I have no idea where you come up with lists like that. The ingredients in the vaccine are clearly listed on GSKs documentation that has been linked to at least twice in this thread.

And where the hell do you come to the conclusion that there is no evidence that vaccines work? Really? You actually believe that? I suppose we are all dropping dead of small pox? How many cases of the mumps are seen nowadays? In case you don't know the incidence has dropped 99% since routine vaccination started. Seriously. If you want to make comments like that then you have to provide some links to actual evidence it is true. You have all been provided links to actual information that you can check yourself. But you would rather believe a youtube video made at a holistic medicine conference that contains nothing but a bunch of sound bites and no actual information. Who are these people in the video? Let's see their credentials? What is their area of expertise? Are they experts in virology and immunology? If I made a video telling you that you should't eat spinach because it's bad for you and will do more harm then good will you believe me? Or maybe I believe that to much calcium in your system may cause cardiac problems and if you don't want your fish to die you better remove all calcium from your tank water or they might have heart attacks? You'll all just take my word for it right? If you have actual evidence or data supporting any of the nonsense in this thread then please produce it.

Sorry, but this hysteria and completely wrong information is really annoying me. I am all for legitimate debate with actual data and information. Not a bunch of completely incorrect nonsense that has no basis in reality.


I disagree. Here a lot of good reason why not to get the vaccine.
H1N1 Vaccine ingredients:

aluminum hydroxide
aluminum phosphate
ammonium sulfate
amphotericin B
animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
dog kidney, monkey kidney,
chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
calf (bovine) serum
betapropiolactone
fetal bovine serum
formaldehyde
formalin
gelatin
glycerol
human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
hydrolized gelatin
monosodium glutamate (MSG)
neomycin
neomycin sulfate
phenol20red indicator
phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
potassium diphosphate
potassium monophosphate
polymyxin B
polysorbate 20
polysorbate 80
porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
residual MRC5 proteins
sorbitol
sucrose
thimerosal (mercury)
tri(n)butylphosphat e,
VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
washed sheep red blood cells

Just because some of us are healthcare workers doesn't mean that we should have all this **** injected in our bodies. There is virtually no evidence that vaccines work in the first place.

macky
11-04-2009, 05:51 PM
Last thing from me on this subject. I have many friends and acquaintances that have not vaccinated their children, all of which are doctors and nurses in Canada and the USA. I have 15 years of acute care hospital nursing experience, 5 years in the USA. If that fact doesn't make you think twice about vaccines, you are stupid. Go get the vaccine. OK. I am out of this one.

sphelps
11-04-2009, 06:08 PM
All I know is the health care and pharmaceutical industries are profitable industries and driven by the same motives as pretty much every other industry. For this reason I wouldn't trust them anymore than most other industries out there so I do my own research and come up with my own conclusions which is something we should all do.

sphelps
11-04-2009, 06:27 PM
I actually have one more thing to add which is that I find the results from the poll to be quite interesting.

The way I see it as of right now 21 (10%) people are undecided, 81 (40%) people are for the flu shot and 102 (50%) are against it.

This seems about average, half and half on each side of the argument however I always like to consider the Milgram Experiment in these types of polls because the media and majority of health care are pushing for one side of the argument. Many of us consider the information provided by both these sources to be accurate so in a way we look at these sources as a type of authority. The Milgram Experiment demonstrated that the presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance to the point where over 50% of people will do what they are told by such an authority figure even if it means harming other people.

This combined with less than 50% of people voting in favor of the vaccine is what I find interesting. I'm not saying what my personal conclusions are exactly, I'm just saying it's interesting.

wickedfrags
11-04-2009, 06:33 PM
By the quality of your posts and supporting arguments you may very well have left readers assuming you got all C's in high school, then straight off to college to become a nurse...this of course may not be the case. Perhaps re-read the quote below...

I have 15 years of acute care hospital nursing experience, 5 years in the USA. If that fact doesn't make you think twice about vaccines, you are stupid.

Well put - read a lot, think for yourself.

All I know is the health care and pharmaceutical industries are profitable industries and driven by the same motives as pretty much every other industry. For this reason I wouldn't trust them anymore than most other industries out there so I do my own research and come up with my own conclusions which is something we should all do.

Ron99
11-04-2009, 06:49 PM
Last thing from me on this subject. I have many friends and acquaintances that have not vaccinated their children, all of which are doctors and nurses in Canada and the USA. I have 15 years of acute care hospital nursing experience, 5 years in the USA. If that fact doesn't make you think twice about vaccines, you are stupid. Go get the vaccine. OK. I am out of this one.

Sorry to sound harsh, but so what? What is your knowledge and experience in virology, epidemiology, immunology and pharmaceutical sciences? I have found many instances of knowing more than doctors and nurses do on various subjects. That's not a jab but reality. Science and medicine is an incredibly complex and extensive area and there is no way one person can be an expert on all things. As primary health care workers your focus is generally on patient care and not on understanding the minutiae of the science behind all the various the treatments.

The list you posted is grossly inaccurate and incredibly misleading. Most of those substances are not part of the H1N1 vaccine. Not even close. You obviously don't understand alot of this as most lay persons don't. So let me give you a small science lesson. Let's use the mercury issue as an example. See the following diagram:

http://hotimg25.fotki.com/a/70_70/254_23/Hg-vi.jpg

Now notice the very different structures of these molecules. Do you think they will all have the same effects in your body? No, they don't. Most pharmacological and toxicological effects are due to the molecule/drug/poison acting on one or more specific receptors in your body. It is like a lock and key and the active molecule (called a ligand) binds to the receptor and activates some process. Now if you imagine the three molecules above as keys do you think they will fit in the same lock?

Also, elimination from your body is also dependent on the structures of these molecules. Comparing methylmercury and thimerosal is a great example of this. The carbon hydrogen bonds in methylmercury make it very fat soluble. That means it gets into fatty tissue and fat deposits and sticks around in there. This is why you get bioaccumulation of methyl mercury in fish which is then passed on to humans when we eat them. Now look at thimerosal. The oxygen molecules make thimerosal much more soluble in water then fat so it stays in your blood stream more readily and is filtered out by you kidneys and you pee it away. Just because a molecule contains a mercury atom in it does not automatically mean it is toxic and will behave the same way other mercury containing molecule will behave.

This is the crux of my problem with this thread. Most of the opinions posted here are just opinions based on incomplete or plain incorrect information. I encourage everybody to ask questions and try to find answers if they have concerns. But look for those answers from reputable sources or knowledgeable people. Ask for actual data or facts to back up those answers. Not just, oh my doctor told me not to. Did you ask your doctor for the reasons for that opinion? Not a bunch of random crap from the internet.

All I know is the health care and pharmaceutical industries are profitable industries and driven by the same motives as pretty much every other industry. For this reason I wouldn't trust them anymore than most other industries out there so I do my own research and come up with my own conclusions which is something we should all do.

Nobody is disputing that the pharmaceutical industry is not trying to make money. That doesn't mean they are evil or lying. Most people I know in the pharma industry are actually interested in discovering new drugs to treat diseases and make the world better. They do have shareholders and investors to answer to as well so they need to make money in the process. Do you have any idea how much it costs in time and money to develop a new drug? The numbers are larger then anything the vast majority of us will ever see. Regardless, they are also incredibly well regulated. You can't just put whatever you want in a vaccine and then start selling it. You have to account for every component and the safety of each of those components and have to show both animal and human trial results.

sphelps
11-04-2009, 07:00 PM
Nobody is disputing that the pharmaceutical industry is not trying to make money. That doesn't mean they are evil or lying. Most people I know in the pharma industry are actually interested in discovering new drugs to treat diseases and make the world better. They do have shareholders and investors to answer to as well so they need to make money in the process. Do you have any idea how much it costs in time and money to develop a new drug? The numbers are larger then anything the vast majority of us will ever see. Regardless, they are also incredibly well regulated. You can't just put whatever you want in a vaccine and then start selling it. You have to account for every component and the safety of each of those components and have to show both animal and human trial results.
Hey I'm not saying they are evil, nor I am taking a general side in this topic, I'm just saying they are just like many other industries like you said. They make large investments in hopes to turn a profit just GM for example. Is GM an evil company? Because this company has preformed life value analysis on many occasions to decide whether it's more profitable to fix a dangerous or faulty component or payout the injury or death claims. This is scary but common practice in almost all large industries and the bigger the investment the more of these types of analysis are preformed. All I'm saying is think for yourself and decide whether something is right or wrong for you which seems to be your general feeling as well. Let's not try and deliberately turn this into an argument.

sphelps
11-04-2009, 07:14 PM
This is the crux of my problem with this thread. Most of the opinions posted here are just opinions based on incomplete or plain incorrect information. I encourage everybody to ask questions and try to find answers if they have concerns. But look for those answers from reputable sources or knowledgeable people. Ask for actual data or facts to back up those answers. Not just, oh my doctor told me not to. Did you ask your doctor for the reasons for that opinion? Not a bunch of random crap from the internet.

You shouldn't have wasted all your time posting information in this thread if this was your final point :lol:
Just saying, you have as much credibility here as anyone else and any medical advice posted in a fish forum would probably qualify as random crap on the internet :wink:

Sorry not trying to argue just thought it was funny

Mrfish55
11-04-2009, 07:32 PM
Sorry to sound harsh, but so what? What is your knowledge and experience in virology, epidemiology, immunology and pharmaceutical sciences? I have found many instances of knowing more than doctors and nurses do on various subjects. That's not a jab but reality. Science and medicine is an incredibly complex and extensive area and there is no way one person can be an expert on all things. As primary health care workers your focus is generally on patient care and not on understanding the minutiae of the science behind all the various the treatments.

The list you posted is grossly inaccurate and incredibly misleading. Most of those substances are not part of the H1N1 vaccine. Not even close. You obviously don't understand alot of this as most lay persons don't. So let me give you a small science lesson. Let's use the mercury issue as an example. See the following diagram:

http://hotimg25.fotki.com/a/70_70/254_23/Hg-vi.jpg

Now notice the very different structures of these molecules. Do you think they will all have the same effects in your body? No, they don't. Most pharmacological and toxicological effects are due to the molecule/drug/poison acting on one or more specific receptors in your body. It is like a lock and key and the active molecule (called a ligand) binds to the receptor and activates some process. Now if you imagine the three molecules above as keys do you think they will fit in the same lock?

Also, elimination from your body is also dependent on the structures of these molecules. Comparing methylmercury and thimerosal is a great example of this. The carbon hydrogen bonds in methylmercury make it very fat soluble. That means it gets into fatty tissue and fat deposits and sticks around in there. This is why you get bioaccumulation of methyl mercury in fish which is then passed on to humans when we eat them. Now look at thimerosal. The oxygen molecules make thimerosal much more soluble in water then fat so it stays in your blood stream more readily and is filtered out by you kidneys and you pee it away. Just because a molecule contains a mercury atom in it does not automatically mean it is toxic and will behave the same way other mercury containing molecule will behave.

This is the crux of my problem with this thread. Most of the opinions posted here are just opinions based on incomplete or plain incorrect information. I encourage everybody to ask questions and try to find answers if they have concerns. But look for those answers from reputable sources or knowledgeable people. Ask for actual data or facts to back up those answers. Not just, oh my doctor told me not to. Did you ask your doctor for the reasons for that opinion? Not a bunch of random crap from the internet.



Nobody is disputing that the pharmaceutical industry is not trying to make money. That doesn't mean they are evil or lying. Most people I know in the pharma industry are actually interested in discovering new drugs to treat diseases and make the world better. They do have shareholders and investors to answer to as well so they need to make money in the process. Do you have any idea how much it costs in time and money to develop a new drug? The numbers are larger then anything the vast majority of us will ever see. Regardless, they are also incredibly well regulated. You can't just put whatever you want in a vaccine and then start selling it. You have to account for every component and the safety of each of those components and have to show both animal and human trial results.

CRICKEY! do you work for NASA or something, I should have paid more attention in school, apparently I am stupid, I am suffering with the flu right now, think I am going to go find my hockey helmet and ride the short bus to Wal Mart for some meds.:silly:

Ron99
11-04-2009, 07:38 PM
You shouldn't have wasted all your time posting information in this thread if this was your final point :lol:
Just saying, you have as much credibility here as anyone else and any medical advice posted in a fish forum would probably qualify as random crap on the internet :wink:

Sorry not trying to argue just thought it was funny

No Worries. I don't think I ever said anything was my final point, just that I was getting frustrated and questioning the value of posting here. And I do think that on this subject my many years of work in both medical microbiology and pharmaceutical R&D makes my opinions somewhat more credible then some of the contributors here. You wouldn't ask your accountant for medical advice or your doctor for tax advice would you? I do have knowledge and experience that is directly relevant to the discussion. I'm also trying to post scientifically accurate information so people can make an informed choice rather then relying on fear and the huge volume of misinformation making the rounds.

What might be more useful is for people to post legitimate questions here such as "should I be concerned about the mercury in this vaccine?" which could then be constructively answered as I did above. But just getting on here and posting things like "the vaccine has mercury in it so I'm not taking it and you shouldn't either" is not only unhelpful it is actually harmful and foments more fear and uncertainty without actually informing people or addressing legitimate concerns.

Hey I'm not saying they are evil, nor I am taking a general side in this topic, I'm just saying they are just like many other industries like you said. They make large investments in hopes to turn a profit just GM for example. Is GM an evil company? Because this company has preformed life value analysis on many occasions to decide whether it's more profitable to fix a dangerous or faulty component or payout the injury or death claims. This is scary but common practice in almost all large industries and the bigger the investment the more of these types of analysis are preformed. All I'm saying is think for yourself and decide whether something is right or wrong for you which seems to be your general feeling as well. Let's not try and deliberately turn this into an argument.

I just think it is also maybe wrong to mistrust the vaccine automatically because you mistrust the pharma industry, along with most other industries. I think that is doing yourself a great disservice. It might be better to focus on the specifics of this case and ask yourself, what are the risks to me from contracting H1N1? What are the risks to society from an uncontrolled H1N1 pandemic? What are the risks to me associated with taking the vaccine? All I would like to see is a rational discussion supported by facts and evidence rather then the hysteria and misinformation that seems to prevalent.

Ron99
11-04-2009, 07:41 PM
CRICKEY! do you work for NASA or something, I should have paid more attention in school, apparently I am stupid, I am suffering with the flu right now, think I am going to go find my hockey helmet and ride the short bus to Wal Mart for some meds.:silly:

No, you're not stupid. Probably just studied other things in school :smile: I don't work for NASA but I do work in pharmaceutical R&D and was educated in pharmacology and toxicology. So I'm an egghead who happens to know about this stuff. But don't ask me to build a rocket :lol:

sphelps
11-04-2009, 07:59 PM
I just think it is also maybe wrong to mistrust the vaccine automatically because you mistrust the pharma industry, along with most other industries. I think that is doing yourself a great disservice. It might be better to focus on the specifics of this case and ask yourself, what are the risks to me from contracting H1N1? What are the risks to society from an uncontrolled H1N1 pandemic? What are the risks to me associated with taking the vaccine? All I would like to see is a rational discussion supported by facts and evidence rather then the hysteria and misinformation that seems to prevalent.
Mistrust was never mentioned by me, so you must be assuming I mistrust them which I'm certainly not saying is the case. I'm just saying you can't necessarily trust such companies more than you would other companies. A human life is a human life and many companies make products which in some way can affect that.
Those are good questions and I assure you I've considered all of them and I'm not in the least bit concerned because I've done and am doing what I believe is necessary to keep myself healthy and safe. I was never concerned about the H1N1 and I was even in Mexico at the height of the scare last spring. In addition I've never once had the flu, my methods and reasoning however are based on my own findings and beliefs and I don't see how stating them benefits anyone else. You got to do somethings by yourself, I would never offer medical advice since I'm not a doctor and doing so would be unethical from my point of view.

Snaz
11-04-2009, 08:13 PM
I wonder what the results of the same poll would be today?

Samw
11-04-2009, 09:19 PM
I actually have one more thing to add which is that I find the results from the poll to be quite interesting.

The way I see it as of right now 21 (10%) people are undecided, 81 (40%) people are for the flu shot and 102 (50%) are against it.




Only 69 said YES, not 81. :) 12 people already had H1N1 so they won't need the shot. OK, I suppose its fair to assume those people would vote YES. :)

sphelps
11-04-2009, 09:45 PM
Only 69 said YES, not 81. :) 12 people already had H1N1 so they won't need the shot. OK, I suppose its fair to assume those people would vote YES. :)
Just trying to simplify. Either way it doesn't really matter, the results are still very interesting from my point of view.

djf4
11-04-2009, 10:24 PM
For those who distrust big Pharma, did you know Boiron, the french company that makes the 2 most popular popular homeopathic flu treatments - Oscillococcinum and Influenzinum employs thousands of people, is in 59 countries and had sales of 740 million Canadian dollars.

Oscillococcinum is an extracted from duck liver and heart and Influenzinum from the snot of flu sufferers. Both are diluted to the point where no molecules from the extract remain.

Ron99
11-04-2009, 10:41 PM
For those who distrust big Pharma, did you know Boiron, the french company that makes the 2 most popular popular homeopathic flu treatments - Oscillococcinum and Influenzinum employs thousands of people, is in 59 countries and had sales of 740 million Canadian dollars.

Oscillococcinum is an extracted from duck liver and heart and Influenzinum from the snot of flu sufferers. Both are diluted to the point where no molecules from the extract remain.

A homeopathic treatments company can hardly be compared to real pharma companies and these cannot be compared to vaccines. Please try again:biggrin:

Ron99
11-04-2009, 10:46 PM
I wonder what the results of the same poll would be today?

Personally I would take this poll with a grain of salt as it is hardly a scientifically or statistically well set up poll. I would guess a number of the people who voted for a conspiracy did so tongue in cheek.

Mistrust was never mentioned by me, so you must be assuming I mistrust them which I'm certainly not saying is the case. I'm just saying you can't necessarily trust such companies more than you would other companies. A human life is a human life and many companies make products which in some way can affect that.
Those are good questions and I assure you I've considered all of them and I'm not in the least bit concerned because I've done and am doing what I believe is necessary to keep myself healthy and safe. I was never concerned about the H1N1 and I was even in Mexico at the height of the scare last spring. In addition I've never once had the flu, my methods and reasoning however are based on my own findings and beliefs and I don't see how stating them benefits anyone else. You got to do somethings by yourself, I would never offer medical advice since I'm not a doctor and doing so would be unethical from my point of view.

Fair enough. I think it is important to remember that the pharma industry is one of the most heavily regulated ones around. Far more then car companies. If there were a problem with a drug or vaccine that came to light then it would and should be re-examined and could likely be pulled from the market. This has happened several times in the past. there is much closer scrutiny of drugs than any other product I can think of.

Snaz
11-04-2009, 11:01 PM
Personally I would take this poll with a grain of salt as it is hardly a scientifically or statistically well set up poll. I would guess a number of the people who voted for a conspiracy did so tongue in cheek.

Oh no arguing that point. What I meant was I wonder how the public feels about the vaccine now that we have had a week of media hype and some dead children.

megs_clark
11-04-2009, 11:47 PM
Iv deffinitly changed my mind over the past 2 weeks. 2 weeks ago I was totaly against my kids having the vaccine. I thought it was a new vaccine (Its not) And i thought that it had not had enough time to be tested long term possible side affects. I partialy changed my mind after seeing the tv special that showed how it affected Australia during their flu season and how many pefectly healthy people the H1N1 killed their. Not to mention how many people it has killed here. So many people think its only really affecting people with underlying health problems but it seems to randomly be hitting perfectly heathy people harder then was originaly expected. I think thats the scary part that people need to look at. No one knows how their body will handle it. I have 2 kids under 5 in my house as well as two teenagers and the highscool my stepdaughter goes to has had many kids come down with it. They didnt notify anyone or any students. I only found out by calling and asking if any students have had it. I think its in everyones communitys more then people are aware, because its not being broadcast where it is that people have died. I also think that in this day in age with us being so over populated that pandemics are much more easly spread then they were before. I could totaly be wrong on that. But to me more people, means more diseases, more easily spread, that have more access to morphing (is that the word) into becoming much more dangerous strains. So If asked a week or two ago i would have said no to the vaccine, but if asked now Id say yes im getting my kids vaccinated. Though still leary i think i will and am just waiting for the hype to die down before bringing my family in. ( i dont want my kids exposed to anything in a doctors waiting room that has 50 people in it) I also think that people cant base their opinions off of Utube, That seems really silly when their are so many informative sites you could be reading up on.

intarsiabox
11-05-2009, 04:37 AM
I've made some posts in this thread in the past and I keep telling myself to stop looking at it, but I can't!!! I don't agree with everything on here but that doesn't make it any less interesting. So I thought I would share my families flu shot history. Myself, I had a cold 4 years ago and can't rememeber the last time I had the flu. I got the flu shot once a couple years ago and I never got sick but that's not unusual. My wife has athsma so she always gets the flu shot and is usually healthy. While pregnant with our last child she didn't get the flu shot and was sick with colds and flus for 8 months straight and refused to take any type of meds. Since then she gets the shot yearly and no more problems. Kids get the shot yearly as well and neither hardly ever gets sick despite being in school and daycare. Both of us questioned the H1N1 vaccine but after researching the more credible info we decided that for our childrens sake it was worth getting. We've all had vaccines in the past without issue and this years was no different. I relieze that this flu isn't the plague but unlike other flus healthy kids are dy ing and I won't risk my children even if the odds were 1 in a billion of dying from it. It's been a week now since the shot and so far none of us are sick or have developed any mutations or unrelated diseases and I haven't discovered any listening devices in my house. Although all the Calgary Flames got the shot so maybe it really is poison after all!:lol:

Veng68
11-05-2009, 06:16 AM
The Raptors, Leafs and Chilliwack Heat also got the H1N1 shots. I bet most sports teams have had it already.

Cheers,
Vic

Oceanic
11-05-2009, 05:18 PM
I got my shot yesterday, I am am not clucking like a chicken, I am not now confined to a wheel chair, I am not paranoid that the government is now tracking me, and I am not worried about the uber tiny amount of Mercury in the vaccine!

Also;

Man did land on the moon!

Aids was not created by the U.S. military!

The world will not end in 2012!

September 11 was not orchestrated by the U. S. government!

Barcodes are not really intended to Control people!

And finally,

Kentucky Fried Chicken does not make black men impotent!

sphelps
11-05-2009, 06:14 PM
Man did land on the moon!

Aids was not created by the U.S. military!

The world will not end in 2012!

September 11 was not orchestrated by the U. S. government!

Barcodes are not really intended to Control people!

And finally,

Kentucky Fried Chicken does not make black men impotent!
Not that I'm disputing any of that but you can't prove any of it and if you truly believe everything in the media meaning you believe this is the same person, I feel sorry for you.

http://www.freedomisforeverybody.org/images/Osama_faces_2.jpg

I'm not saying I believe all these conspiracy theory's but sometimes we don't have all the facts and there are certainly things that do get covered up.

Oceanic
11-05-2009, 06:54 PM
Not that I'm disputing any of that but you can't prove any of it and if you truly believe everything in the media meaning you believe this is the same person, I feel sorry for you.

http://www.freedomisforeverybody.org/images/Osama_faces_2.jpg

I'm not saying I believe all these conspiracy theory's but sometimes we don't have all the facts and there are certainly things that do get covered up.

Yeah, I do believe some things are covered up but the majority of the conspiracies are just rediculous!

I think the picture on the left is actually Russell Peters with a beard and turbin.

sphelps
11-05-2009, 07:20 PM
Yeah, I do believe some things are covered up but the majority of the conspiracies are just rediculous!

Well of course they are, but I believe that's the whole point. You see the media can do the same thing but most people will believe ridiculous stories just because it's on the news or on TV. I believe the point of a lot of these theories is simply to get your attention and point out some of the obvious holes that exist which will show you that the same information can be looked at in completely different way. Then just maybe people will start to think a little more for themselves instead of believing whatever is presented to you. Of course there are the two byproducts which are the two types of people on the extreme of either side, one that only believes everything the media believes and the other that only believes crazy conspiracy theories. I believe where we should be is somewhere in the middle asking questions and trying to get as many facts as possible before making a decision.

Chowder
11-05-2009, 08:40 PM
I think it has officially gotten out of hand.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/jkhchris/ATT00001.jpg

Leah
11-05-2009, 09:32 PM
Poor Piglet!!!!!

VFX
11-05-2009, 11:12 PM
I think it has officially gotten out of hand.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/jkhchris/ATT00001.jpg

Nice!

.

my2rotties
11-05-2009, 11:42 PM
I am more educated and feel better knowing I read this on my own accord this time. I am so sick and bloody tired of hearing about this stuff on the news and seeing it in all the papers. I am still not going to get the vaccination though. Just standing in line for hours with so many other people is a risk in itself already. I have hand sanitizer in every pocket and use it always. I don't touch anything I don't touch my face and I take immune enhancing supplements and vitamins. I feel this is the best that I can do.

There is so much hype on both sides, I am just going to sit on the fence and try not to watch or touch anything.

Veng68
11-06-2009, 12:18 AM
I am more educated and feel better knowing I read this on my own accord this time. I am so sick and bloody tired of hearing about this stuff on the news and seeing it in all the papers. I am still not going to get the vaccination though. Just standing in line for hours with so many other people is a risk in itself already. I have hand sanitizer in every pocket and use it always. I don't touch anything I don't touch my face and I take immune enhancing supplements and vitamins. I feel this is the best that I can do.

There is so much hype on both sides, I am just going to sit on the fence and try not to watch or touch anything.

But if there was no line would you get it? I know a lot of family practice doctors in BC have it already (well at least my doctor and 5 friends who are doctors). They are probably only giving it to patients who are higher on the list like kids, pregnant women, & people with conditions.

Cheers,
Vic

my2rotties
11-06-2009, 12:49 AM
I would not get it... I don't feel that I am a high risk individual and I do not work in the general public. I work out and train at home which is a blessing since I cannot imagine how risky the gym would be at this point. If I still worked out at the gym, or took public transport,I would definitely consider getting the vaccination or if I worked in retail or an office tower I might consider it as well.

However, even with all the input on the subject here in this topic I am still not convinced it is all that people say it is. However this is just my opinion and I am entitled to that.

What I resent is the media ramming this down my throat day in and day out... I don't frown upon people whom choose to get the vaccine, but I don't want to be judged if I choose not to do it myself. I take good care of myself and hope that the time and effort in keeping strong and healthy would pull me through.

But if there was no line would you get it? I know a lot of family practice doctors in BC have it already (well at least my doctor and 5 friends who are doctors). They are probably only giving it to patients who are higher on the list like kids, pregnant women, & people with conditions.

Cheers,
Vic

Binare
11-06-2009, 12:52 AM
I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I don't believe in vaccines (for myself) but I do hope everyones takin care of their kids, my 4 year old with epilepsy just spent 6 hours in the hospital with my wife cause she can't sleep, has a fever and can't breath very well... End result is she has h1n1. She's a hard 10 days comin up, not aloud to leave the house and another 2 medications on top of her already 8. My point is kids can't make the choice so put your theories aside and keep your personal feelings in check when it comes to your kids who can't think for themselves in this matter. If a person decides not to vaccine their children becuase an ex porn star and a horrible comedian told you it'll make your child autistic as apposed to now documented proof that this flu can cause death, you got some seriously disturbing issues and are not putting your children first. People need to get their head out of their asses and think... for once. Oh and... My little one did get the vaccine at childrens hospital, just too late.

intarsiabox
11-06-2009, 01:03 AM
I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I don't believe in vaccines (for myself) but I do hope everyones takin care of their kids, my 4 year old with epilepsy just spent 6 hours in the hospital with my wife cause she can't sleep, has a fever and can't breath very well... End result is she has h1n1. She's a hard 10 days comin up, not aloud to leave the house and another 2 medications on top of her already 8. My point is kids can't make the choice so put your theories aside and keep your personal feelings in check when it comes to your kids who can't think for themselves in this matter. If a person decides not to vaccine their children becuase an ex porn star and a horrible comedian told you it'll make your child autistic as apposed to now documented proof that this flu can cause death, you got some seriously disturbing issues and are not putting your children first. People need to get their head out of their asses and think... for once. Oh and... My little one did get the vaccine at childrens hospital, just too late.

Sorry to hear about your daughter, I hope she will recover quickly. :sad: I don't particularily like getting shots either but I got the vaccine for my kids safety and if they get it then I can suck it up and get it too. My oldest one is terrified of needles so it wasn't a light decision.

intarsiabox
11-06-2009, 01:13 AM
The Raptors, Leafs and Chilliwack Heat also got the H1N1 shots. I bet most sports teams have had it already.

Cheers,
Vic

I don't know how things are in BC but in Alberta they all but ran out of vaccines and they allowed the Flames to jump the que and go ahead of all the high risk people and children. The gov't also paid a private clinic with public tax money to do it so nobody would know. At least one person has already been fired for it.

jonnytens
11-06-2009, 01:30 AM
I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I don't believe in vaccines (for myself) but I do hope everyones takin care of their kids, my 4 year old with epilepsy just spent 6 hours in the hospital with my wife cause she can't sleep, has a fever and can't breath very well... End result is she has h1n1. She's a hard 10 days comin up, not aloud to leave the house and another 2 medications on top of her already 8. My point is kids can't make the choice so put your theories aside and keep your personal feelings in check when it comes to your kids who can't think for themselves in this matter. If a person decides not to vaccine their children becuase an ex porn star and a horrible comedian told you it'll make your child autistic as apposed to now documented proof that this flu can cause death, you got some seriously disturbing issues and are not putting your children first. People need to get their head out of their asses and think... for once. Oh and... My little one did get the vaccine at childrens hospital, just too late.

well it is might right to not inject my otherwise healthy children with a chemical cocktail that they in my opinion don't need. the media has spun this swine flu epidemic right out of control....everyone thinks they are going to die...you are not. the people who have their heads up their asses are the ones lining up like sheep to get a shot in the arm with a largely untested vaccine and they really don't know why....just because tv said so.

intarsiabox
11-06-2009, 01:33 AM
well it is might right to not inject my otherwise healthy children with a chemical cocktail that they in my opinion don't need. the media has spun this swine flu epidemic right out of control....everyone thinks they are going to die...you are not. the people who have their heads up their asses are the ones lining up like sheep to get a shot in the arm with a largely untested vaccine and they really don't know why....just because tv said so.

I'm sure that's very comforting to the families who have had their children die of the H1N1 flu already. Baaaa

midgetwaiter
11-06-2009, 01:40 AM
I don't know how things are in BC but in Alberta they all but ran out of vaccines and they allowed the Flames to jump the que and go ahead of all the high risk people and children. The gov't also paid a private clinic with public tax money to do it so nobody would know. At least one person has already been fired for it.

That's not really fair, when the clinic setup for the Flames was done the gov was still in free for all mode, I don't think they realized what was going to happen. The Flames have been pretty up front about this whole thing, they felt having all the players go to a public clinic would have been a circus so they approached AHS. That's a pretty understandable thing IMO. It doesn't make sense to send somebody out to vaccinate 30 guys so they took care of as many people as they could while they were there. The Flames are no more at fault for shortages than anyone else who has already received the vaccination.

The failure here was the way AHS setup the vaccination program from the beginning. Alberta is the only province that failed to prioritize high risk groups, this seriously magnified the problems. When they did decide to setup a schedule they misprinted the age of children allowed access in the first run of the newspaper ads.

It pretty much renders the discussion we are having moot for Albertans. It goes from "will you get the shot" to "can you get the shot".

Binare
11-06-2009, 01:41 AM
I'm sure that's very comforting to the families who have had their children die of the H1N1 flu already. Baaaa

Not to mention comforting to the families who have children who attend the same school.

midgetwaiter
11-06-2009, 01:44 AM
the people who have their heads up their asses are the ones lining up like sheep to get a shot in the arm with a largely untested vaccine and they really don't know why....just because tv said so.

So in spite of the fact that flu shots have been developed in the same way for 30 years and that the adjunct in this vaccine has been used in millions of doses all over Europe for a decade this particular vaccine is "untested". Who's the sheep?

Binare
11-06-2009, 01:44 AM
That's not really fair, when the clinic setup for the Flames was done the gov was still in free for all mode, I don't think they realized what was going to happen. The Flames have been pretty up front about this whole thing, they felt having all the players go to a public clinic would have been a circus so they approached AHS. That's a pretty understandable thing IMO. It doesn't make sense to send somebody out to vaccinate 30 guys so they took care of as many people as they could while they were there. The Flames are no more at fault for shortages than anyone else who has already received the vaccination.

The failure here was the way AHS setup the vaccination program from the beginning. Alberta is the only province that failed to prioritize high risk groups, this seriously magnified the problems. When they did decide to setup a schedule they misprinted the age of children allowed access in the first run of the newspaper ads.

It pretty much renders the discussion we are having moot for Albertans. It goes from "will you get the shot" to "can you get the shot".

I'm sure atleast one of them read the paper that mornin, I'm sure atleast one of them knew the clinics were bein shutdown due to shortage. I woulda jumped ship for my families sake too, but I'd take the flack like a man.

intarsiabox
11-06-2009, 02:18 AM
That's not really fair, when the clinic setup for the Flames was done the gov was still in free for all mode, I don't think they realized what was going to happen. The Flames have been pretty up front about this whole thing, they felt having all the players go to a public clinic would have been a circus so they approached AHS. That's a pretty understandable thing IMO. It doesn't make sense to send somebody out to vaccinate 30 guys so they took care of as many people as they could while they were there. The Flames are no more at fault for shortages than anyone else who has already received the vaccination.

The failure here was the way AHS setup the vaccination program from the beginning. Alberta is the only province that failed to prioritize high risk groups, this seriously magnified the problems. When they did decide to setup a schedule they misprinted the age of children allowed access in the first run of the newspaper ads.

It pretty much renders the discussion we are having moot for Albertans. It goes from "will you get the shot" to "can you get the shot".

I'm glad you think that rich people deserve better treatment than you. Next time your in the emergency ward in pain and waiting for 12 hours and a hockey player walks right in because he broke a finger in a fight just remember that you're OK with it because he's famous and you're not.

Myka
11-06-2009, 02:47 AM
That's not really fair, when the clinic setup for the Flames was done the gov was still in free for all mode...Alberta is the only province that failed to prioritize high risk groups

Really? I didn't know that. I thought everyone was prioritized.

I know that me having asthma puts me on the high risk priority list and I was supposed to be able to get my vaccine this past Monday (in SK), but due to the shortage they changed the priority list to only include children under 5 and women pregnant for 20 weeks or more. It sounds like the plan is to include more high risk people in each consecutive week.

intarsiabox
11-06-2009, 03:41 AM
Really? I didn't know that. I thought everyone was prioritized.

I know that me having asthma puts me on the high risk priority list and I was supposed to be able to get my vaccine this past Monday (in SK), but due to the shortage they changed the priority list to only include children under 5 and women pregnant for 20 weeks or more. It sounds like the plan is to include more high risk people in each consecutive week.

Yeah, Alberta dropped the ball and figured that the 50 million shots that Canada ordered would just magically materialize out of thin air all at once. People aren't mad that the Flames and their famillies got the shot, it's the fact that they jumped the queue by not having to wait in 4-6 hour line ups like every other Albertan. Small kids, pregnant women, chronic illness suffers were all out there standing in the cold but healthy young atheletes are better than these people and don't have to? Calgary Stampeders, Eskimos, etc have had to wait in line if they wanted the shot, Oilers said they're waiting until those that need it get the shot first before they do.(I'll admit the last one is all for publicity)

midgetwaiter
11-06-2009, 04:21 AM
I'm glad you think that rich people deserve better treatment than you. Next time your in the emergency ward in pain and waiting for 12 hours and a hockey player walks right in because he broke a finger in a fight just remember that you're OK with it because he's famous and you're not.

I didn't say it was right. what I was getting at is that AHS made the mistake not the Flames.

intarsiabox
11-06-2009, 01:25 PM
That's a pretty understandable thing IMO. It doesn't make sense to send somebody out to vaccinate 30 guys so they took care of as many people as they could while they were there.

I guess what you wrote and what you meant weren't the same thing, because to me it sounds like you approve of them getting a private doctor to vaccinate 30 players plus their families. I know people in the health care system as well but I didn't ask them to put me and my family ahead of everyone else and from what I've read none of the other sports teams have either.

midgetwaiter
11-06-2009, 10:33 PM
I guess what you wrote and what you meant weren't the same thing, because to me it sounds like you approve of them getting a private doctor to vaccinate 30 players plus their families.

Yeah I absolutely do. What do you think would have happened if those 30 players went and lined up at some random Calgary clinic? Media circus, autograph line, a huge disruption in an already messed up situation. The Flames front office knew this because they deal with it every day so they phoned AHS to see if they could avoid said circus, it being in everyone's interest to do so.

Now if you're going to send somebody out to do 30 vaccinations it's not going to take a lot more time or energy to do 100. Planning is the same, travel is the same, etc. They may as well get as much done as they can.

Both of these points are perfectly reasonable in a situation where the vaccine was available to everyone and there were no supply issues. Turns out that wasn't the case and going ahead with the clinic for the Flames was a bad idea because of it. The point I'm trying to make is that the Flames are not the guys in charge of deciding if the supply is available, that's Alberta Health Services and that's who screwed up.

FitoPharmer
11-06-2009, 11:17 PM
part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq2YVnwEnBw)
part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk_HLKv76vg)
part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcWEWSMHr8g)

Ron99
11-07-2009, 12:16 AM
part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq2YVnwEnBw)
part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk_HLKv76vg)
part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcWEWSMHr8g)

FitoPharmer,

Please give up already. These youtube videos are not credible. What are Dr. Blaylock's credentials? He is one of these "natural remedy" folks and peddles his own vitamin mixture on his website. Run a medline search on him. He has 13 publications in the database. That is not even close to the number you would see from a real full time research scientist would likely have hundreds of publications. Also, he has only published 4 papers in the last 18 years, 3 of which were in the journal of alternative therapies which is hardly a mainstream medical or scientific journal.

Similarly, Dr. Mercola is not a real medical doctor but a doctor of osteopathic medicine. Look it up. I wouldn't let him near me with a ten foot pole. He apparently also has numerous complaints of fraud leveled against him.

http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html

This is not real science. Not even close. It is two guys peddling snake oil. Listen to them at your own peril.

Ron99
11-07-2009, 12:20 AM
Just to add, if you think youtube is a good source of information on any subject then I feel really sad for you. Most of this kind of stuff is complete nonsense and not credible at all. Please cite some publication by credible scientists with actual data and information. If you want to link to stuff like those videos I suggest you research them a little more carefully and find out more about the people making those statements.

If you tried these types of arguments or used evidence like this in a court of law you would lose your case badly.

intarsiabox
11-07-2009, 12:30 AM
Yeah I absolutely do. What do you think would have happened if those 30 players went and lined up at some random Calgary clinic? Media circus, autograph line, a huge disruption in an already messed up situation. The Flames front office knew this because they deal with it every day so they phoned AHS to see if they could avoid said circus, it being in everyone's interest to do so.

Now if you're going to send somebody out to do 30 vaccinations it's not going to take a lot more time or energy to do 100. Planning is the same, travel is the same, etc. They may as well get as much done as they can.

Both of these points are perfectly reasonable in a situation where the vaccine was available to everyone and there were no supply issues. Turns out that wasn't the case and going ahead with the clinic for the Flames was a bad idea because of it. The point I'm trying to make is that the Flames are not the guys in charge of deciding if the supply is available, that's Alberta Health Services and that's who screwed up.

So first you say it's not right, now you say it is? A Flames manager contacted somebody he knew in AHS not the other way around, that is why people are getting fired because it was snuck through the AHS. Do think these guys hide in their house all day with the blinds closed or something. No other team got special treatment and had a clinic open up for just them, other players and their families had to wait in line like everyone else. Only the Flames would cause a media circus but no other team? That's just a poor excuse to justify themselves. I guess if you feel others deserve better treatment than you, then you have every right to your opinion. Most Albertans and people all across Canada are pretty upset that so few clinics are available to the public but one gets opened up to serve a single group just so they wouldn't have to stand in line in the cold like all the young children, pregnant women and cronically ill do. It's funny how these people can all stand in line but a bunch of healthy atheletes can't, that's just sad IMO. Nobody is complaining that the Flames got the vaccine or caused a shortage, it is how they got it. If people don't speak up now it will always be tolerated and the general public will continue to pay the extra costs so the rich and famous get preferential treatment. I'll admit that it really boils down to one flames manager and one or two people in AHS but it really makes both entire parties look bad.

FitoPharmer
11-07-2009, 12:41 AM
Please cite some publication by credible scientists with actual data and information.
i have asked you to do the same thing to prove its safe and you just ignore the question.

Veng68
11-07-2009, 12:43 AM
So first you say it's not right, now you say it is? A Flames manager contacted somebody he knew in AHS not the other way around, that is why people are getting fired because it was snuck through the AHS. Do think these guys hide in their house all day with the blinds closed or something. No other team got special treatment and had a clinic open up for just them, other players and their families had to wait in line like everyone else. Only the Flames would cause a media circus but no other team? That's just a poor excuse to justify themselves. I guess if you feel others deserve better treatment than you, then you have every right to your opinion. Most Albertans and people all across Canada are pretty upset that so few clinics are available to the public but one gets opened up to serve a single group just so they wouldn't have to stand in line in the cold like all the young children, pregnant women and cronically ill do. It's funny how these people can all stand in line but a bunch of healthy atheletes can't, that's just sad IMO. Nobody is complaining that the Flames got the vaccine or caused a shortage, it is how they got it. If people don't speak up now it will always be tolerated and the general public will continue to pay the extra costs so the rich and famous get preferential treatment. I'll admit that it really boils down to one flames manager and one or two people in AHS but it really makes both entire parties look bad.

I think the Leafs, Raptors & Calgary's farm team in Abbotsford (or is it Chilliwack) had the shot.

I think there is an article on TSN website.

Cheers,
Vic

Ron99
11-07-2009, 01:33 AM
i have asked you to do the same thing to prove its safe and you just ignore the question.

Actually, i think you might have asked somebody else. I have posted a bunch of scientifically accurate information that you can double check for yourself if you like. Since most seem to rather watch youtube I'll post some links :lol:

First start here with the actual monograph for the vaccine:

http://www.gsk.ca/english/docs-pdf/Arepanrix_PIL_CAPA01v01.pdf
(http://www.gsk.ca/english/docs-pdf/Arepanrix_PIL_CAPA01v01.pdf)

This has alot of information from human testing of this and the similar H5N1 vaccine. If you want to see actual clinical trial results of using this or a similar vaccine here it is. I would urge you to read it and then ask me to help you interpret any of the results you aren't clear on. The reader's digest summary is that there may be slightly higher incidence of mild side effects like pain at the injection site etc. But no more serious side effects then placebo which basically means that people suffering serious medical outcomes after being vaccinated were probably a result of other medical conditions and not the vaccine. For example, of the first 9,873 people receiving the H5N1 vaccine five people died of unrelated causes (cancer, heart attack etc. not due to the vaccine). None of the 9,873 people had any serious adverse side effects from the vaccine. For reference, 9800 people is on the high end for the numbers of people tested in drug clinical trials. It is a large statistically relevant group.

As for the ingredients here is an example:

Squalene:

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/

The MSDS doesn't tell much either then in purified form it is an irritant. You can see the LD50 in mice is 5g/Kg. So in human terms that would equate to having 50% fatality after being injected with something like 275 grams of squalene. The vaccine contains 10.69 mg which is more then 16,000 times less squalene.

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Squalene-9925073

I don't have time to post others right now but if you look at my other posts you will see similar information for the toxicity of thimerosal. The other components of the adjuvant are vitamin E and polysorbate 80 which is a common food additive.

pinhead
11-07-2009, 01:39 AM
Just to add, if you think youtube is a good source of information on any subject then I feel really sad for you. Most of this kind of stuff is complete nonsense and not credible at all. Please cite some publication by credible scientists with actual data and information. If you want to link to stuff like those videos I suggest you research them a little more carefully and find out more about the people making those statements.

If you tried these types of arguments or used evidence like this in a court of law you would lose your case badly.

i have asked you to do the same thing to prove its safe and you just ignore the question.

You continue to ignore the answer. Last week you asked the same thing and I responded:


Searching H1N1 vaccine, I get 1217 journal references for h1n1 vaccine - 46 for the month of October alone. You would then have to go to a university biomedical library to read these articles as they are subscription based and very few are available for free.

You responded with:
that's nice...... have you done this? so there is 3500 references for h1n1 did you read any of them?

And as a matter of fact, I have read many of the Internet acessible journal references as well the videos you have linked to. So I have looked at both sides of the argument and if you keep on responding the same way, I must assume that you have not read the scientific journals.

intarsiabox
11-07-2009, 02:07 AM
I think the Leafs, Raptors & Calgary's farm team in Abbotsford (or is it Chilliwack) had the shot.

I think there is an article on TSN website.

Cheers,
Vic

That's even worse than what happened in Alberta as these provinces already had priority lists set up from the start. In Alberta though the Stampeders, Eskimos and Oilers have received no special treatment. Nobody can tell me that none of the players on any of these teams didn't know that there were long waits and they were being bumped ahead of everyone. Myself, I would refuse to be bumped ahead of others, if you were in front of me in a line then you deserve to get the shot first. Our system only works if the policies are obeyed by all regardless of the size of your paycheck. This time it was only for a flu shot, there are long wait times for organ transplants as well is it okay to jump the queue in these cases as well? To what level is queue jumping acceptable? You need to understand that I'm only defending the rights of every Canadian not just a privilaged few.:smile:

bbb1080
11-07-2009, 07:34 PM
It's not about you getting sick. It's about herd immunity. Getting the vaccination can save not your life but the succeptable person in the elevator beside you. We have had 6 kids die this week in peds ICU of h1n1 that were healthy and vibrant, not immunocompromised. Those deaths were preventable. Don't think about yourself and make it your prerogative to risk others lives out of ignorance of a simple very low risk immunization.
As a side note there seems to be a bit of cross
immunity for individuals born before 1955, it is less important that these individuals be vaccinated.
Sorry for the rant but this issue hits close to home for me.

intarsiabox
11-07-2009, 09:32 PM
It's not about you getting sick. It's about herd immunity. Getting the vaccination can save not your life but the succeptable person in the elevator beside you. We have had 6 kids die this week in peds ICU of h1n1 that were healthy and vibrant, not immunocompromised. Those deaths were preventable. Don't think about yourself and make it your prerogative to risk others lives out of ignorance of a simple very low risk immunization.
As a side note there seems to be a bit of cross
immunity for individuals born before 1955, it is less important that these individuals be vaccinated.
Sorry for the rant but this issue hits close to home for me.

This is why I got my kids and myself vaccinated. Not so much for myself but for my daughters, their friends, school mates and neices and nephews that we come in contact with daily. You don't know who is a carrier or who is especially suseptible just by looking at them and I don't really want to be the cause of someone's child dying.

RuGlu6
11-07-2009, 09:49 PM
The media has spun this swine flu epidemic right out of control....everyone thinks they are going to die...you are not. the people who have their heads up their asses are the ones lining up like sheep to get a shot in the arm with a largely untested vaccine and they really don't know why....just because TV said so.

Very well said. short and to the point LIKE A SHEEP !

bbb1080
11-08-2009, 01:42 AM
its because we, the medical community, say so. This isn't about you, as i said, its about the 15-25% of people who will die shortly after getting H1N1, the ones that arent in the "typical toll" , could be your wife, kids, maybe you. The important thing is we dont know who, and the vaccine works. Its a live attenuated virus that forces your body to mount an immune response, simple. Before deciding if you will be one of the ignorant, lazy, uniformed *******s that put so many others at risk, please try and put this into perspective. We vaccinate to save lifes. Polio, small pox, MMR, they all function on basically the same principle and they have all worked.

leducreef
11-08-2009, 02:10 AM
so it looks like about 38% of you have or are geting the shot
and the rest of us are not.! wow thats got to say something right there.
i have made up my mind after seeing that , i am not going to get it !
i think in this world there is a far better chance of dying from something else, than h1n1 !

if only every one could learn to wash there hands after thay take a ****, none of this crap would be around

banditpowdercoat
11-08-2009, 02:17 AM
What I don't like is my wife was Forced to get the shot, both flu shots because of work. I feel it should be a personal choice. She is a Home care Aid, but still, it hould be the person's descresion to get the shot or not!!!


I am NOT getting it. I don;t agree with Flu shot's

bbb1080
11-08-2009, 02:59 AM
the ignorance of some of these responses astounds me. I have zero faith in the general population. Anyone that will make a decision based on a canreef poll is an idiot. Make the decision for yourselfs but this vaccination isnt about you, you self centered idiots. Its about HERD IMMUNITY!!! People that dont get this shot are spreading the virus and killing people. Sounds fun eh?

Pazil
11-08-2009, 04:00 AM
:eek::eek::eek: Now we have all been told.....LMFAO

the ignorance of some of these responses astounds me. I have zero faith in the general population. Anyone that will make a decision based on a canreef poll is an idiot. Make the decision for yourselfs but this vaccination isnt about you, you self centered idiots. Its about HERD IMMUNITY!!! People that dont get this shot are spreading the virus and killing people. Sounds fun eh?

banditpowdercoat
11-08-2009, 05:42 AM
the ignorance of some of these responses astounds me. I have zero faith in the general population. Anyone that will make a decision based on a canreef poll is an idiot. Make the decision for yourselfs but this vaccination isnt about you, you self centered idiots. Its about HERD IMMUNITY!!! People that dont get this shot are spreading the virus and killing people. Sounds fun eh?


So, you move when the herd moves?

Binare
11-08-2009, 06:08 AM
So, you move when the herd moves?

Ya.... That's kinda how the herd survives aint it? 500 million people died of small pox before the vaccine came out, and only the odd straggler who was too busy stairin at udders after it came out.

banditpowdercoat
11-08-2009, 06:20 AM
Sorry, I'm not livestock. I don't follow the herd becausae it's what the herd does. I am ME, I make my own choices. It's part of being an INDIVIDUAL.

Sure, maybe this N1H1 Vaccine is the best thing since sliced bread but I am not going to get it because someone says I HAVE to. in fact, if you tell me I have to do someting, I wil usually do just the opposite to prove to you that I don;t HAVE to.

The way the media hypes everyting up all the time just sickens me. yes they do treat the general populace like livestock. "Do what we say." "This is good fro you, that is bad" "Do this, Don;t do that"...............


OK, I'm gona stop myself here, I feel my blood pressure rising.

Binare
11-08-2009, 07:09 AM
Sorry, I'm not livestock. I don't follow the herd becausae it's what the herd does. I am ME, I make my own choices. It's part of being an INDIVIDUAL.

Sure, maybe this N1H1 Vaccine is the best thing since sliced bread but I am not going to get it because someone says I HAVE to. in fact, if you tell me I have to do someting, I wil usually do just the opposite to prove to you that I don;t HAVE to.

The way the media hypes everyting up all the time just sickens me. yes they do treat the general populace like livestock. "Do what we say." "This is good fro you, that is bad" "Do this, Don;t do that"...............


OK, I'm gona stop myself here, I feel my blood pressure rising.

Ooooook

Canadian
11-08-2009, 03:45 PM
Wow.

I'm with Binare on this one. It's depressing that things have sunk to this level. I won't even comment on the asinine vaccine-autism connection - that's just ignorant sensationalism spurred on by the media (it's a conspiracy ;) )

I can certainly see how the media has influenced people's decisions here. In one breath people are saying I won't get the shot just because the media is telling me I need to and then in the other they're basing their decision on media (including the internet) sensationalism to justify not getting the shot.

As a healthcare professional with database and journal subscriptions I have access to basically every online journal you can think of. The crux of the quality studies clearly suggest that not getting vaccinated will increase death rates in those most susceptible.

Those people who want to act as vectors and not get vaccinated are not only making a decision for themselves but willfully choosing to put others at risk. That is a fact. Now if you're comfortable doing this then it's certainly your prerogative. But I can only hope that one of you doesn't visit with your nieces or nephews over the holidays and potentially kill one of them.

Mrfish55
11-08-2009, 03:54 PM
http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr88/Mrfish55/h1n1-swine-flu-kid-funny.jpg

Lance
11-08-2009, 04:14 PM
http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr88/Mrfish55/h1n1-swine-flu-kid-funny.jpg



:lol!:

banditpowdercoat
11-08-2009, 05:26 PM
OK, Back on the Herd thing. What about Natural Selection and Survival of the fittest?? Where does that fit into?

russp
11-08-2009, 05:59 PM
In my opinion we have to exposed to these things in order to build immunity , the more we shelter ourselves the weaker we become . I f we are going to refer to livestock look at intensive livestock vs animals in the wild , a virus that hardly affects a wild animal will wipe out an entire confined herd. Our natural immunity is becoming weaker & weaker because we are naturally exposed to less & less.

banditpowdercoat
11-08-2009, 06:06 PM
In my opinion we have to exposed to these things in order to build immunity , the more we shelter ourselves the weaker we become . I f we are going to refer to livestock look at intensive livestock vs animals in the wild , a virus that hardly affects a wild animal will wipe out an entire confined herd. Our natural immunity is becoming weaker & weaker because we are naturally exposed to less & less.

My point Exactly :mrgreen:

yes, Modern Medicine have increased lifespan's tremedously, but theres still someting to be said for natural immunity. Like the good intensions mommy that allways disinfects little Billy's every bump and scrape. Now, Billy is a teenager, gets a cut, and doesn't treat it right away. it gets infected and he get's sick. Rushed to Emergency because his arm is turning Purple. Little extreme scenario, but you get the point.

bbb1080
11-08-2009, 06:16 PM
You don't acquire immunity if you die. I'm done with this topic, do as you will but as was said earlier you could very well be the vector that kills somebody close to you. You go be the big bad rebel that you are and ride away into the sunset doing just what you want, a big self centered idiot. Don't just think about yourself, we've gotten prosperous as a race because people think about others.

russp
11-08-2009, 06:39 PM
on the flip side if the mass immunizations are weakening our natural immunities then who is doing the most harm , so crawl back in your bubble & don't forget to sterilize the door knob.

bbb1080
11-08-2009, 06:57 PM
So you would be for small pox running rampant? Or measles killing children to "develop immunity"? Its a ridiculous argument. I grew up on a farm, ate dirt, never washed my hands, i know how that goes. This isnt even close to the same.

Canadian
11-08-2009, 07:38 PM
Do you people actually understand what a vaccine is? Seriously.

"Natural immunity"?

We're not talking about over use of antimicrobial agents in day-to-day products. We're talking about a vaccine. A vaccine allows you to be exposed to the pathogen so you can, in fact, develop antibodies to that pathogen. Beyond doing this would you rather we do something archaic like have H1N1, small pox, rubella, etc. parties like the chicken pox parties of yore?

The ignorance is just appalling.

I'm done with this discussion. Ignorant people appear to be happy living in their misinformed bubbles and perpetuating more misinformation. Carry on as you will. Then the rest of us can sleep soundly knowing that "natural selection" may very well be the best course of action. Hopefully the rest of us can stay far enough away from you in the meantime.

bbb1080
11-08-2009, 07:40 PM
hear hear dude. This is really frustrating. Ignorant people with terribly uninformed perspectives. Thanks for the support

leducreef
11-08-2009, 11:04 PM
now i love that pic mrfish thats funny lol

all in all its a personal choice

Canadian
11-10-2009, 04:53 AM
I said I was done with this but I lied . . . sort of.

It would be in everybody's best interest to read this before developing an "opinion". And click on the links contained therein:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2525

Binare
11-10-2009, 05:16 AM
I said I was done with this but I lied . . . sort of.

It would be in everybody's best interest to read this before developing an "opinion". And click on the links contained therein:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2525

What?! Science has something to do with medicine? With all the talk of sheep and livestock around here I was convinced medicine was based on agriculture.

MMAX
11-11-2009, 03:46 AM
The wife and I are getting our shots tomorrow. I'm not scared of getting the H1N1 virus because I'm strong enough to fight it off. I just want to do everything I can to protect my 5 month old daughter who doesn't qualify for the shot from getting sick.

midgetwaiter
11-11-2009, 04:36 AM
so it looks like about 38% of you have or are geting the shot
and the rest of us are not.! wow thats got to say something right there.


The next time somebody asks me why I think representative democracy is flawed I'm just going to send them a link to this thread, draw your own conclusions.


if only every one could learn to wash there hands after thay take a ****, none of this crap would be around

Either you don't understand what the word respiratory means or we have very dissimilar anatomy. :)

Murminator
11-12-2009, 09:14 PM
I will get my needle when my "group" comes up. Unfortunatly I fall into the ..." If you are still alive you can get it" group then the gov'nt will let me get my needle

VFX
11-24-2009, 09:50 PM
Canada's doctors told to stop using swine flu vaccine (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8376534.stm)

.

Mr.nintendo
11-24-2009, 10:25 PM
H-1-N-what?

Funny how it's calmed down so fast

GreenSpottedPuffer
11-24-2009, 10:27 PM
H-1-N-what?

Funny how it's calmed down so fast

I know the media got pretty bored with blowing it all out of proportion huh? What have they moved onto? I haven't been watching the news lately.

MMAX
11-25-2009, 12:10 AM
All I know is that damn shot makes you feel like **** for 2 days after. If that's a little taste of the H1N1 virus I'd hate to see what the full blown version would feel like.

Canadian
11-25-2009, 01:06 AM
Canada's doctors told to stop using swine flu vaccine (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8376534.stm)


Must be a slow news day. When you delve a little deeper into this over-hyped news story this is what you find:

According to the Associated Press, in the batch that was recalled, there were just 6 cases of severe allergic reaction out of 170,000 doses. However, they expected there to only be about one or two from a batch that size, so they asked doctors to stop using them. A spokesman for Canada's health minister says there doesn't appear to be a major cause for alarm. He says the reports may be a statistical anomaly.

I love it when the news bastardizes something like this to drum up readership/viewership and then facilitates the uninformed to run with the story and gets plastered all over the internet. The article is intentionally ambiguous with its brevity. More fear mongering for more sales - it's grrrrrrrreat!

RuGlu6
11-25-2009, 03:17 AM
Doctors are trained and raised by bigfarma, medical magazines and media are controlled by them as well, they make money when people are sick, when people are healthy they make nothing.

Follow the money and learn the truth...

So, who wants a toxic mix in the blood stream?
Or a synthetic drug to treat (not cure) all you problems ?

Aspirin kills 400% more people than H1N1 swine flu.

The July 1998 issue of The American Journal of Medicine explains it as follows:

"Conservative calculations estimate that approximately 107,000 patients are hospitalized annually for nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID)-related gastrointestinal (GI) complications and at least 16,500 NSAID-related deaths occur each year among arthritis patients alone." (Singh Gurkirpal, MD, “Recent Considerations in Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug Gastropathy”, The American Journal of Medicine, July 27, 1998, p. 31S)

So for every person the CDC claims was killed by H1N1 swine flu this year, common painkillers like aspirin have killed four! Yet you don't see the CDC, FDA, WHO or mainstream media running around screaming about the extreme dangers of aspirin, do you? All those deaths apparently don't matter. Only swine flu deaths lead to hysteria.

http://www.naturalnews.com/027548_swine_flu_vaccines_death_risk.html

Funky_Fish14
11-25-2009, 04:23 AM
I dont really buy in to the 'swine flu hype', and I thought the media really blew it out of proportion. I rarely get sick(less than anually), and if I do, its just my body shutting down cause I have been eating poorly and not getting enough sleep for extended periods. I havent had a vaccination for 15 years.

My father heard about the deaths of younger (15-25 year old) males who were completely healthy without any medical conditions. I fit right into the middle of this category. He got pretty cheesed when he found out I didnt want to get the shot, and hounded me for awhile about it. School was lagging (I didnt put nearly as much effort into it as I should have for the first month and a half), and knowing H1N1 was pretty bad (you are barred from comming to school for a week+ if you get it, time I could not afford to miss), I then decided to get the shot. I actually managed to get it on the first day it was offered in my area, before they ran out (actually about 30 mins before they started turning people away).

I havent really seen many people sick lately... and getting the shot wasted about 3 hrs of my time (even though i was there early). Oh well, I guess it was better safe than sorry, I really just didnt want to risk missing 1wk + of school.

The only side effect, for me, from the shot, was a sore shoulder for a couple days (pretty sore actually). One 3 or 4 year old at the clinic i went to had an allergic reaction to the shot. Aside from that, no issues.

Also important to note (cause some people dont realise this): Even if you are vaccinated, and 'immune' to the virus, you can still be a carrier.

Cheers,

Chris

trilinearmipmap
11-25-2009, 07:46 PM
Most people who get H1N1 influenza will recover uneventfully after about a week of bad "flu" symptoms. About one in every several thousand people will get severely ill to the point of needing hospitalization or even ICU care and out of these hospitalized patients some will die.

Unlike the normal seasonal flu virus, the H1N1 has sporadically struck down healthy young people in their teens twenties and thirties. Perfectly normal healthy people have died within a few days of catching the H1N1 virus.

In the 1970's there was an elevated rate of Guillain-Barre syndrome (a type of paralysis which occurs sporadically and can also be caused by the flu virus itself) among recipients of the swine flu vaccine. For reasons related to statistical analysis which I won't go into, it cannot be determined whether the increased rate of Guillain-Barre syndrome was caused by the vaccine or not. If it was caused by the vaccine, the increased rate of paralysis was approximately one in one million.

The link between childhood vaccines and autism has been conclusively disproved. Despite this there are those who prefer to get their medical information from Oprah and Jenny MacCarthy rather than from infectious disease experts and epidemiologists at the CDC. I suppose if you think a big-breasted blonde is more of an expert on vaccine safety than hundreds of trained physicians and scientists you are welcome to your opinion.

The bottom line is I would rather accept a theoretical one-in-a-million risk from the flu vaccine, rather than a known one-in-several-thousand risk from the H1N1 virus. For me it is clear, I would not risk bringing the virus home to my kids.

There are those who believe that physicians are brainwashed by the greedy pharmaceutical companies. I know many physicians. Most if not all are sceptical of the information that pharmaceutical companies try to push. The flu vaccine is not a money maker for pharmaceutical companies, in fact they would make a lot more money if everyone caught H1N1 and required a Tamiflu (antiviral) prescription. Most docs are smart enough to decide for themselves regarding prescriptions, vaccines etc and the idea that docs are brainwashed by the pharmaceutical companies is laughable.

In summary we don't need to be panicked by H1N1. We also don't need to be panicked by the anti-vaccine wingnuts. Get your H1N1 vaccine if you would like to diminish the small but very real chance that you or a loved one could die from the H1N1 virus. For conspiracy theorists and amateur medical experts please stop spreading misinformation which could endanger others' health.