still cycling?

[tufa44]

Hi everyone. I'm a newbie saltwater aquarist. Just bought a second-hand setup in January. It's a 54 gallon corner tank with overflow but no sump. I have a Rena XP3 canister running from the overflow and an in-tank Tunze skimmer. There is about 40 lb of live rock. The tank came with and still has a maroon clown, a cleaner wrasse, a red flame hawkfish and a blueface angelfish. I sold one queen angelfish because I didn't think it was appropriate for my setup. I also added a purple anemone for my clown. There are assorted inverts and corals also.

My problem is that I still have nitrate problems and diatoms. All the fish, inverts and corals are healthy. Ammonia and nitrites are 0 but I'm still measuring at or just under 10 ppm nitrate and <=0.3 ppm phosphate, pH consistently at 8.5, calcium about 500. Do you think my tank is still cycling or is this a phosphate problem? I am using tapwater but hope to invest in an RO/DI system soon. Thanks!

[Rbacchiega]

when was the last time you cleaned out the canister filter?

[Myka]

Your tank is done cycling. Once you have 0 for ammonia and nitrites it is considered "cycled". What is your salinity at? If you are using a swing arm hydrometer consider taking it in to your LFS to get them to check its accuracy with a refractometer. I say this because both your pH and Calcium are higher than they should be, so I'm wondering if your salinity is higher than you think it is.

I am glad to hear you found a new home for the Queen Angel, that is very good to see as you are right, they are not suited to a 54 gallon aquarium. The Blueface Angel is in the same boat as the Queen though, unfortunately.

For reference to the phosphate check out the guide in my signature. That should help you out.

In the case of the nitrate, the canister filter would be my first suspect as a contributor to the elevated level. Although <10ppm is considered "acceptable" for a reef tank, it is obviously not ideal. The best way to deal with nitrates is to control waste so it doesn't have a chance to decompose and show up as nitrate. If you have any medias in the canister that "biological" which you just rinse and put back in (like ceramic rings, bioballs, or media granules) which are designed to collect detritus and allow it to break down you should remove it. You (generally) shouldn't have medias like that in a reef tank. if you are just using sponges or sheeted filter media it should be replaced at least once a week if not more often than that. This can get costly (try J&L for cheap rolls of filter media) so many people nix the use of a canister filter as it really isn't needed in a reef tank. Or you can simply just use the canister to run medias like phosphate remover (if the flow is slow enough) or carbon.

Your tap water could also contain phosphate and nitrate. Test it, and see what your kits say.

What are you putting in your tank besides salt? Any additives of any kind? What do you feed? Many additives and foods contain nitrate and/or phosphates too.

[blueyota]

Hello tufa44 ...my guess would be the canister filter ...I had the same prob when i set my tank up. i was running a fluval 404 and had no idea why i could not get my nitrates down .....did a pile of reading and found that a canister filter is most likely cause more bad then good ...unless you run it empty and pretty much use it as a power head .. but have the option to run carbon or whatever and have more water in the system ......also a few more pounds of liverock wouldnt hurt .....just my 2 cents .... good luck

[mike31154]

If everything is healthy as you report, don't worry too much about your nitrates at this point. I also run a Rena canister on my current set up but as per the previous responses, I've removed all media except for a bag of carbon. If you run your canister that way (empty baskets), you can almost consider it as a sort of closed loop or mini sump. My system was also acquired used and after the initial cycle I had slightly elevated nitrates, then they dropped to zero only to come back up to just under 20ppm. Wasn't until I had been running the tank for close to two years that the nitrates dropped to zero. I did add some Chaeto macro algae courtesy of Myka about a year ago and soon after that the nitrates dropped. Not sure whether it was solely the addition of the Chaeto or the tank & live rock maturing sufficiently. I also added significant flow in the form of a VorTech propeller pump a year ago. Could have been a combo of all those things that eventually took care of the nitrates. I have a similar fish load with two maroons (just deposited their second batch of eggs) and assorted other species.

Curious about you running the canister off the 'overflow'. Doesn't the canister have it's own intake and output? Why would you run it from an overflow and what kind of overflow is it?

[tufa44]

Thanks for all the replies and tips. I try to clean the canister every 2 weeks and replace the media. I do have some bioballs in it, sounds like I should just try running it empty. Tap water tests ok.

I have the salinity at 1.025 and use a refractometer so I'm pretty sure it's accurate. I use Reef Crystals and don't really add any other supplements other than a vitamin that I mix with the food periodically. I used Coral Snow a couple of times but discovered that my Ca was too high as it was. I generally feed mysis and nori with some brine shrimp periodically and I use a frozen marine cube once a week.

I'll try emptying the canister and let you know what happens. Thanks.

[Myka]

Frozen foods have a lot of phosphates and nitrates in them...be sure to let the food melt, then pour off the dirty water before feeding it. Give em a good rinse. Feeding high quality dry foods half the time often helps too. I'm surprised Reef Crystals is giving you that high calcium reading. Have you calibrated your refractometer recently?

[fishytime]

If you decide to take out the bio-balls (and I think you should), do it slowly...a handful at a time, so you dont cause a mini cycle. You can replace some of the media with LR rubble.

[tufa44]

Wow, you guys are awesome! Thanks for all the help. I do thaw the frozen food but I don't pour off the rinse water, will definitely start. I've tried some dry flakes and pellets but the fish don't seem too thrilled with them. I'll try some other brands and formulas.

Curious about you running the canister off the 'overflow'. Doesn't the canister have it's own intake and output? Why would you run it from an overflow and what kind of overflow is it?I thought that was weird too, that's just how the previous owner had it rigged up. It was drilled for a sump but he hooked up the canister instead because there is very little space under the stand. I could possibly plumb it to have a sump in my basement but that will be down the road.

I think I got in a little over my head by buying an existing tank instead of starting from scratch and learning as I go. Thankfully, the fish are doing well and my corals are thriving so overall I think everything is good. Just not happy about the diatoms. Would a UV sterilizer help with that?

Thanks again.

[Myka]

The diatoms will go away on their own. Don't worry about them. Provided you're sure that's what it is. Got pics of this new setup of yours? :D

[mike31154]

Wow, you guys are awesome! Thanks for all the help. I do thaw the frozen food but I don't pour off the rinse water, will definitely start. I've tried some dry flakes and pellets but the fish don't seem too thrilled with them. I'll try some other brands and formulas.

I thought that was weird too, that's just how the previous owner had it rigged up. It was drilled for a sump but he hooked up the canister instead because there is very little space under the stand. I could possibly plumb it to have a sump in my basement but that will be down the road.

I think I got in a little over my head by buying an existing tank instead of starting from scratch and learning as I go. Thankfully, the fish are doing well and my corals are thriving so overall I think everything is good. Just not happy about the diatoms. Would a UV sterilizer help with that?

Thanks again.


Absolutely nothing wrong starting with a used system, maybe even better in your case since the tank is drilled for a sump already. Starting from scratch would involve a much longer cycle, curing rock, etc... etc..

Is the overflow drilled at the back/side or the bottom? Actually not a bad idea to use the existing overlow to hook up the canister, although the instructions for my Rena have something about there being a max/min height for locating the canister below the tank.

"Make sure the filter is a minimum of 24"(60 cm) to a maximum of 55" (140 cm) BELOW the water Level of the aquarium...."

Not sure why that is exactly but the distance is measured from the surface water level in the tank to the top of the canister, using the standard intake & output tubing. Don't know how the placement of your overflow would affect this measurement (if at all) since the normal intake tube for the filter takes water from a ways down in the tank and the output tube would discharge somewhere just below the surface. You might actually be getting more flow through the filter the way yours is set up.

I'm planning a basement sump in the future as well. Have all the parts, just need to get cracking.

[tufa44]

Absolutely nothing wrong starting with a used system, maybe even better in your case since the tank is drilled for a sump already. Starting from scratch would involve a much longer cycle, curing rock, etc... etc..

Is the overflow drilled at the back/side or the bottom? Actually not a bad idea to use the existing overlow to hook up the canister, although the instructions for my Rena have something about there being a max/min height for locating the canister below the tank.

"Make sure the filter is a minimum of 24"(60 cm) to a maximum of 55" (140 cm) BELOW the water Level of the aquarium...."

Not sure why that is exactly but the distance is measured from the surface water level in the tank to the top of the canister, using the standard intake & output tubing. Don't know how the placement of your overflow would affect this measurement (if at all) since the normal intake tube for the filter takes water from a ways down in the tank and the output tube would discharge somewhere just below the surface. You might actually be getting more flow through the filter the way yours is set up.

I'm planning a basement sump in the future as well. Have all the parts, just need to get cracking.

The overflow is internal in the back corner of the tank and the holes are drilled out the bottom. I measured and the canister is within the recommended measurements. Water flow seems fine although I haven't measured it. It's a bit of a pain to dig the canister out from under the stand every week to clean but otherwise it's a decent setup. There's just no room under the stand for a sump unfortunately. I plan to keep the Rena where it is for now and just start emptying the bio-balls, etc out. I may fill it with some more live rock rather than the various media I've been using.