100% Certified Cyanide Free Reef Fish for Sale. [Archive]

tang daddy

12-30-2008, 07:37 PM

I would but again how would you know if it was or not....

Usually you dont start to see the effects until after a few months but I would definately pay double if I could get one that wasn't cyanide caught forsure. I think it's important to keep the reefs clean as long as possible and instead of buying 2-6 of the same fish over and over, paying double is considered pretty cheap but the best would be captive bred because there wouldn't be any impact on the natural enviroment.

In a way the hobby of keeping corals and fish is pouring gas into the flaming fire atleast they have a handle on the fire extinguisher to put it out if it got out of control. By no means am I any better than the next as I have lots of gasoline to burn however I would much rather buy cultured than wild tank bred over wild caught I wish there was a way that they could breed larger fish like wrasses, angels, rabbitfish puffers and so on....

Keri

12-30-2008, 07:58 PM

Yes.

Myka

12-30-2008, 08:09 PM

I would pay 50% more.

my2rotties

12-30-2008, 08:33 PM

YES!!! If there was proof the fish was caught ethically. I would be upset if the fish died a few months down the road for no real fault of my own.

reefermadness

12-30-2008, 08:40 PM

I have seen a few fish in my tank that look perfectly healthy all of a sudden look faded and pass away. This has happened months after purchase. With no sign of a parasite and the fish previously eating well I have come up with a hypothesis that many of our fish are cynaide caught and who knows how this comprimises the health of the fish.

Trigger Man

12-30-2008, 08:48 PM

I would pay more, but probably 50% more, not double.

GreenSpottedPuffer

12-30-2008, 09:07 PM

Yes. It saves a lot of money. I am not sure why people are even saying they would not pay double...It will save you lots in the long run when you have the fish for years and do not have to "replace" it. Not to mention this is such an environmentally unfriendly hobby that is already expensive and you should be doing anything to help the situation even if that means paying double or triple. Thats the only way things would ever change.

The problem is how to guarantee they are not cyanide caught? The cyanide exits their system right away. It does permanent damage while in the fishes system but then cannot be detected easily. After death there is a way to test but it includes some very expensive equipment and putting the fish in a blender.

J.Lloy

12-30-2008, 09:21 PM

I would pay more for a 100%Cyanide free fish just for the fact that chances are it will live a lot longer life. I would prefer having a nice fish for three years not months.

Treebeard

12-30-2008, 09:22 PM

I hope you are not assuming that all fish perish because they were caught with cyanide. I suspect the majority of fish do not survive in captivity because the purchasers buy them on impulse with no idea on how to properly sustain them.

Yes. It saves a lot of money. I am not sure why people are even saying they would not pay double...It will save you lots in the long run when you have the fish for years and do not have to "replace" it.

superduperwesman

12-30-2008, 09:27 PM

I would pay 50% more.

I would pay more, but probably 50% more, not double.

So you both voted no?? Just wondering b/c you technically should have... there should be more options on the poll :)

fdiddy

12-30-2008, 10:01 PM

Cyanide poisoning if fast acting. If it's the cyanide that killed them they would be DOA. It certainly does play a large roll in adding stress. I would pay more, maybe not double... but i said that about gas prices hitting 1.50/litre and I still drove. There is no way of policing this IMO and one could be easily led to believe they were not caught with cyanide. I'm totally against cyanide, but from what i understand about foreign policies (Next to nothing :P) it would be hard to get this rolling, but definitely worth the try.

DBM

12-30-2008, 10:51 PM

I wouldn't buy the fish if I thought it was juiced - but I was in the industry for awhile and have a better handle on what's suspect (a large portion of it is). Paying more for a clean fish is probably the way to go, and alot of the confusion can be had by avoiding suspect countries of origin or avoiding commonly juiced fish altogether.

I'm not sure the fish that's dying in your tanks can be attributed to collection with cyanide but more likely poor handling and packing from the collector through to the retailer. It's the damage to the fishes habitat and larval fish that's the bigger problem with cyanide collection.

I've got no problem paying more for a clean fish.

howdy20012002

12-30-2008, 10:52 PM

when I was in indonesia, the collectors there told me that there is no such thing as cynanide-free bigger fish such as large tangs or angels.
I talked to a few different ones all saying the same thing - if you don't knock them out temporarily, they mark themselves up too much in the net. (this was just for the big fish that would damage themselves)
that is straight from the horses mouth and when you think about it, it makes sense.
the trick is how much is used and that it is used directly at the fish they are collecting.
just thought I would my add my 2 cents worth.

tang daddy

12-30-2008, 11:08 PM

^hmm when you think about it that way it makes alittle sense, less of a fight from the fish, less stress and easier to catch. But I wonder what the long terms effect of these cyanide catching do to the fish. Maybe a few here are right when saying that the fish died after six or whatever months because they don't have the proper/condition enviroment. We are all still learning to keep certain fish for longer than a few months here but at what price?

Skimmerking

12-30-2008, 11:45 PM

when I was in indonesia, the collectors there told me that there is no such thing as a big cynanide free fish. and I talked to a few different ones all saying the same thing
if you don't knock them out temporarily, they mark themselves up too much in the net. (this was just for the big fish that would damage themselves)
that is straight from the horses mouth and when you think about it, it makes sense.
the trick is how much is used and that it is used directly at the fish they are collecting.
just thought I would my 2 cents worth.
well of course it makes sense. he works getting fish in. that is why i knows this.. and another thing that people will blame the LFS and other factors to the fish deaths. and not consider that its them making the huge mistake

chandigz

12-31-2008, 01:49 AM

It sounds good in theory, but I don't think it is possible to police so no I wouldn't pay double for "cyanide free" fish. Cyanide caught fish don't look any different from cyanide free fish. You can not test every fish for cyanide. There are too many chances along the supply chain for unscrupulous dealers and fisherman to substitute for more profit. Just look at MAC, they have been trying for years to regulate the industry, but with all the hassles of paperwork and the cerification process, many along the supply chain have given up or not even bothered. There is one MAC certified wholesaler in canada and no certified shops. So technically there are no true MAC certified fish available ( shops can not call fish MAC certified unless they are certified themselves) There is also the problem of pre exposure to cyanide from other fisherman, so even if the fish was net caught doesn't mean that it is cyanide free.

Reef_kid

12-31-2008, 02:23 AM

at the mark up that a lot of stores here in victoria.. i dont even wana pay the price they have for fish that may be cyanide caught! i worked at a number of pet stores and the price they pay and the mark up is horrible! thus i buy from vancover.. stores that i know are reliable. they are cheeper.. and i know im getting good quality! im not sure about the rest of the country but i know JandL and ocean aquatics are very reputable and there product is awsome. so why bother with other stores ? with higher prices for 100%Cyanide free fish
when these stores offer awsome selection anyways?

untamed

12-31-2008, 02:35 AM

It is tricky business. I will say that I would like to support stores that claim to source responsibly captured fish....and that I would easily accept that it might cost more to deal with those stores.

Delphinus

12-31-2008, 03:27 AM

Sure, I'll pay more. I actually don't care how much more I would pay. If it costs triple then I'll pay triple .. but only if the certification means something I can trust. Problem is the certification process is the industry policing itself and that is basically a conflict of interest. I think technically this certification already exists (MAC certification) but hardly anyone seems to bother with it.

My opinion on the whole big fish thing marking themselves up .. if you can't do it without cyanide then it probably shouldn't be done. Maybe big fish oughtn't be collected anyhow. Removing a breeding size adult has more impact than removing a nonbreeding juvenile.

GreenSpottedPuffer

12-31-2008, 03:39 AM

I hope you are not assuming that all fish perish because they were caught with cyanide. I suspect the majority of fish do not survive in captivity because the purchasers buy them on impulse with no idea on how to properly sustain them.

LOL...no. I have been in the hobby long enough to know not all fish perish because they are cyanide caught ;)

hillegom

12-31-2008, 04:25 AM

no I would not pay double, but I would certainly pay more.
But as everyone else is saying, how, and who would police this?
Would I trust this certification? Probably not.
Twice have I bought a rabbitfish and have it expire within 2 weeks.
Just bought one from J&L and we will see whether this " easier to care for fish" will live.

Red Coral Aquariums

12-31-2008, 02:28 PM

Yes I would not hesitate paying double if I could get irrefutable proof of net or container caught fish. Every Vendor says they do not sell cyanide caught fish but ????.
Kevin

GreenSpottedPuffer

12-31-2008, 02:33 PM

Yes I would not hesitate paying double if I could get irrefutable proof of net or container caught fish. Every Vendor says they do not sell cyanide caught fish but ????.
Kevin

Yeah of course...

Can you imagine a vendor actually admitting they are selling cyanide caught fish? They all do whether knowing it or not but admitting it is another story.

I think how close the poll is to 50-50 says a lot about why things like this will not change very quickly.

Matt

12-31-2008, 06:07 PM

I voted no, just because there is no way to differentiate without a certification body and supply-chain monitoring.

midgetwaiter

12-31-2008, 06:25 PM

I voted no, just because there is no way to differentiate without a certification body and supply-chain monitoring.

This sort of exists in the form of the MAC certification but that has just turned into a pointless mess.

There is currently no way to do any kind of cyanide testing on fish in the supply chain. It's not an easy testing procedure and it requires some significant investment in equipment. You can see what is currently being worked on here: http://coralreef.noaa.gov/Library/Publications/cyanide_doc.pdf

With that considered there is no way for a retailer to offer 100% cyanide free fish, we don't know if they are or not. Now we can make some pretty educated guesses sometimes, I can tell you that a fish caught in the Sea of Cortez is almost certainly not but I can't prove it. In the case of Indo or Philippine fish I would be less certain. If I ever saw someone selling Indo fish with a No Cyanide guarantee I'd fall down laughing.

Until the infrastructure is in place for testing everybody is on the honor system, sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. Retailers are doing everything they can at this point.

GreenSpottedPuffer

12-31-2008, 06:50 PM

I voted no, just because there is no way to differentiate without a certification body and supply-chain monitoring.

That wasn't the question/vote though. It was a "what if" thing...

dsaundry

12-31-2008, 07:23 PM

Should also have a "depends" catagory....as it would really depend on the fish.

GreenSpottedPuffer

12-31-2008, 07:46 PM

Should also have a "depends" catagory....as it would really depend on the fish.

So do you mean it depends on the species to you? So some species are ok to be cyanide caught? Or do you mean something totally different?

GreenSpottedPuffer

12-31-2008, 07:49 PM

Retailers are doing everything they can at this point.

Retailers do not do anything as they really have no say in the whole thing. Unless there are stores that have employees going to the collection sites. I know of a few major US retailers that DO have this in place and have their own collectors in some areas but that is rare and I am not so sure it happens at all in Canada. I could be wrong though.

justinl

12-31-2008, 08:52 PM

I would pay double for SUSTAINABLY caught fish. there are lots of ways to catch a fish and a lot of them are baaaaad. I would pay more for a captive bred, but I know there are limits on what can be raised in captivity.

It's BS to say there's no alternative to knocking out big fish with cyanide. Using clove oil is a well-known solution that has no long-term effects, unlike cyanide.

my2rotties

12-31-2008, 09:04 PM

I have to admit... IF I could cyanide catch the black striped damsel in my tank right now, I would do it in a blink of a eye... too bad I would bomb everyone else.:lol:

So do you mean it depends on the species to you? So some species are ok to be cyanide caught? Or do you mean something totally different?

dsaundry

12-31-2008, 09:52 PM

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon1.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaundry http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=373021#post373021)
Should also have a "depends" catagory....as it would really depend on the fish.

So do you mean it depends on the species to you? So some species are ok to be cyanide caught? Or do you mean something totally different?

No cyanide should not be used at all, but it would depend on how badly I want a certain fish and from where I am purchacing it..from a friend, fellow Canreefer,or if it is a lfs, there are a lot of variables..personally I would like to see cyanide banned altogether....

GreenSpottedPuffer

12-31-2008, 09:59 PM

No cyanide should not be used at all, but it would depend on how badly I want a certain fish and from where I am purchacing it..from a friend, fellow Canreefer,or if it is a lfs, there are a lot of variables..personally I would like to see cyanide banned altogether....

Ok yeah thats what I thought you meant :biggrin:

I would have been surprised to hear anyone here thinks cyanide is ok to catch any fish.

Its been said already but if a fish is too hard to catch properly with humane techniques, then it should not be caught. IMO those big fish should never be caught anyways...but that came up in a whole different thread :wink:

I just don't see why people want to miss raising a fish from a few inches and enjoying all the growth.

my2rotties

12-31-2008, 10:36 PM

I learned a lesson first hand about buying mature reef fish. Now my new guys are little but larger then a puffer mouth, and I am happy to see the baby cuteness, and ease of feeding. My puffer ate all my mouth sized little guys, and my Naso almost died of starvation. Never again, unless the larger fish is from a member.

I wonder how people discovered cyanide was good for catching fish in the first place... I know it stuns them, but does it kill them if they use too much? In this day and age, you would think there are better options for breeding these fish in captivity.

I do understand from trying to catch my own fish their instict to vanish when a net comes out. It doesn't even have to go into my tank before I suddenly have not a single fish in sight. If clove oil is an option, why don't they just use that instead of cyanide? Is cyanide cheaper or more effective? I know if I was a fish collector I would want to catch my fish without hurting them or the reef.

How do large zoo aqauriums take care of their fish when they need to catch them? The fish are display animals and are valuable, so they must have a way of dazing them without netting or harsh chemicals. At least I would think so.

Ok yeah thats what I thought you meant :biggrin:

I would have been surprised to hear anyone here thinks cyanide is ok to catch any fish.

Its been said already but if a fish is too hard to catch properly with humane techniques, then it should not be caught. IMO those big fish should never be caught anyways...but that came up in a whole different thread :wink:

I just don't see why people want to miss raising a fish from a few inches and enjoying all the growth.

GreenSpottedPuffer

12-31-2008, 11:15 PM

I learned a lesson first hand about buying mature reef fish. Now my new guys are little but larger then a puffer mouth, and I am happy to see the baby cuteness, and ease of feeding. My puffer ate all my mouth sized little guys, and my Naso almost died of starvation. Never again, unless the larger fish is from a member.

I wonder how people discovered cyanide was good for catching fish in the first place... I know it stuns them, but does it kill them if they use too much? In this day and age, you would think there are better options for breeding these fish in captivity.

I do understand from trying to catch my own fish their instict to vanish when a net comes out. It doesn't even have to go into my tank before I suddenly have not a single fish in sight. If clove oil is an option, why don't they just use that instead of cyanide? Is cyanide cheaper or more effective? I know if I was a fish collector I would want to catch my fish without hurting them or the reef.

How do large zoo aqauriums take care of their fish when they need to catch them? The fish are display animals and are valuable, so they must have a way of dazing them without netting or harsh chemicals. At least I would think so.

Its not quite that simple...if you were a collector in say the Philippines, you would most likely be quite poor and not have the same "values" you do now. I have been over there a few times and seen the poverty first hand. Many of these collectors just want to feed their family. If cyanide allows them to make $20 a day instead of $2-3 a day, they are going to use it, regardless of how destructive it is. I am not necessarily defending the collectors but the governments in both the collection countries and import countries do little to help the situation.

Do you think Canada cares much if ornamental fish being imported are caught legally or not?

Many large aquariums collect animals themselves properly or get them from other aquariums/breeding programs.

Clove oil does work to sedate fish but I am not so sure it would be strong enough to stun fish out on a reef. Maybe I am wrong but when I have used it, it works quite slowly. Seems like you would need a lot to use it as a collection tool. Maybe not though, I don't know for sure.

naesco

01-01-2009, 12:34 AM

GreenSpottedPuffer

01-01-2009, 12:44 AM

I voted yes because one cannot support the cyanide trade.

Here is how the cyanide trade works.
They squirt cyanide into the reef and 50% of the fish die and the rest are stunned.
By the time the fish reach the shore another 50% die.
A large % of the rest die in the holding tank at the source, the transit to the exporter, the exporters facility, the transit to us, the wholesalers tank, the transit to the LFS and the LFS tanks.
The ones that survive this end up in our tanks.
Like many of you have experienced, the fish appears healthy enough but with months dies of no apparent reason.

In the meantime the reef that has been squirted with cyanide dies together with all the critter that live therein.

The reality is that most of the cost to us of the fish is airfreight so paying double is not necessary. But if the fisher is paid double he most certainly wont use cyanide.

With respect, the posts that say their is not guarantee are not facing the issue

If we just refused to buy the fish species (like mandarins and cryptic wrasses, one half the problem goes away).

I agree 100% but people want what they want. Its easier for most people to not think about it. I think I hear this the most..."it was already in the store and if I didn't buy it someone else would have". I have to admit that I had that kind of an attitude until I saw the effects first hand earlier this year. When we stumbled upon dozens of dead, poisoned fish in the Philippines that one morning, I have never looked at the hobby the same. Kind of like how they sometimes show kids in school accident pictures caused by drunk driving or what a smokers lung looks like.

Having said that, I still bought a Copperband a month or so ago (promised I would only try one more time) :rolleyes: So I am being fairly hypocritical. To be honest I justified it by telling myself they were the best batch I had ever seen and did not look cyanide caught. I know better though, CCB from the Philippines are pretty much a guarantee to be cyanide caught.

Delphinus

01-01-2009, 01:03 AM

With respect, the posts that say their is not guarantee are not facing the issue

If we just refused to buy the fish species (like mandarins and cryptic wrasses, one half the problem goes away).

I'm not sure if I'm one that you mean but I did say something like that .. but you may be misinterpreting what I meant. I said that the idea of certification sounds neat but if it's self-imposed by the industry then it has less teeth to it. Ie., as far as I know, I already buy fish that I believe to be non-cyanide caught. I have to take the word of the person who sells me the fish, who has to take the word of the person who imported it, who has to take the word of the exporter .. etc. .. How do we really know? Even if there's a piece of paper that says "we promise we didn't" how can I really know?

But the flip side is .. what fish is guaranteed never caught with cyanide? If I refuse to buy a fish that "might" have been caught with cyanide, .. what's left? .. Is the solution that if I want a fish, I have to travel to Fiji with my fishing rod and take back only what I've caught myself?

Why is there even cyanide so easily accessible? What is its commercial value? Isn't this the stuff movie spies keep in their teeth in case they get caught? Why wouldn't something like that be heavily regulated if not outright banned?

midgetwaiter

01-01-2009, 01:05 AM

Retailers do not do anything as they really have no say in the whole thing. Unless there are stores that have employees going to the collection sites. I know of a few major US retailers that DO have this in place and have their own collectors in some areas but that is rare and I am not so sure it happens at all in Canada. I could be wrong though.

Nobody is keeping people at collection sites all the time, they might visit once a year.

I'm curious about what you consider a "major" retailer as well. Some of the places that people think of as big are nothing more than fax machines that send orders to large wholesalers. The wholesale outfit drop ships directly to the customer, the retail op never even sees your livestock.

GreenSpottedPuffer

01-01-2009, 01:11 AM

Nobody is keeping people at collection sites all the time, they might visit once a year.

I'm curious about what you consider a "major" retailer as well. Some of the places that people think of as big are nothing more than fax machines that send orders to large wholesalers. The wholesale outfit drop ships directly to the customer, the retail op never even sees your livestock.

Uhhhh...how exactly have can you say "nobody"?

I was speaking of a specific retailer who I KNOW has at least one collector in the Solomon Islands that I know of (met) and I believe more. He is there year round. I also am pretty sure they have more than a fax machine :wink:

midgetwaiter

01-01-2009, 01:54 AM

What's the name of the shop?

Uhhhh...how exactly have can you say "nobody"?

I was speaking of a specific retailer who I KNOW has at least one collector in the Solomon Islands that I know of (met) and I believe more. He is there year round. I also am pretty sure they have more than a fax machine :wink:

Snaz

01-01-2009, 03:24 AM

Here is how Cyanide fishing works and it's impact for those who are interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_fishing

DBM

01-01-2009, 10:05 PM

Naesco,

The Mandarins I used to buy were not caught with cyanide, they were speared. Next time your retailer gets a bunch shipped in have a closer look, might see a scar along the dorsal or caudal.

DBM

01-01-2009, 10:06 PM

Greenspotted,

Don't you mean Vanuatu?

naesco

01-01-2009, 10:28 PM

Naesco,

The Mandarins I used to buy were not caught with cyanide, they were speared. Next time your retailer gets a bunch shipped in have a closer look, might see a scar along the dorsal or caudal.

Yes I posted on this technique earlier. MAC taught it to the fisherman.
But, as we both know, the availability of MAC fish is very limited.

Reefers should gladly pay the additional cost for these mandarins.
Continue to get them in whenever possible.

GreenSpottedPuffer

01-01-2009, 10:37 PM

Greenspotted,

Don't you mean Vanuatu?

Vanuatu? Are you talking about the collector I met?

If so, I met him in Singapore (where my father lives) at a local reef club. He had brought them some hand picked fishes, some of which my dad bought. Im talking some multi thousand dollar specimens, so he delivered them himself (Singapore is MADE of money ;) ). I talked to him for a while and learned he works for one of the largest retailers (mostly online but they have huge facilities on both the West and East coast US, so actually they are probably not "mostly" online) but lives in the South Pacific. He is actually employed by that US company though and if you look at their rare fish and the amazing specimens they get, it makes sense now. He said he had just come from the Solomon Islands collecting some very rare puffer color morphs that he had only ever seen maybe 7 ever in his life. He had one at the reef club that day along with the angels and whatnot he had imported.

So I guess I should have said he collects in the Solomon Islands at least seasonally but I don't know for sure if he lives there. He just said he works for a US retailer but lives year round in the South Pacific. My father has gotten almost all his fish through the guy now.

GreenSpottedPuffer

01-01-2009, 10:40 PM

Yes I posted on this technique earlier. MAC taught it to the fisherman.
But, as we both know, the availability of MAC fish is very limited.

Reefers should gladly pay the additional cost for these mandarins.
Continue to get them in whenever possible.

So there are no MAC wholesalers though here in Canada? What about the US?

I don't know much about it, but if I ever found a retailer/wholesaler who was buying/selling MAC fish, I would shop exclusively with them :)

chandigz

01-01-2009, 10:45 PM

There is one MAC certified wholesaler in canada (right here in BC) but no certified retailers

GreenSpottedPuffer

01-01-2009, 11:11 PM

There is one MAC certified wholesaler in canada (right here in BC) but no certified retailers

Do they sell to the public?

chandigz

01-01-2009, 11:15 PM

Do they sell to the public?

Not to public, check with lfs to see if they deal with coast mountain. They should be able to let you know what certified stock is available.

GreenSpottedPuffer

01-01-2009, 11:38 PM

Not to public, check with lfs to see if they deal with coast mountain. They should be able to let you know what certified stock is available.

Thanks, I will do that for sure. I think my new LFS will be whichever one is willing to deal with them. :)

chandigz

01-01-2009, 11:50 PM

some shops also import from MAC certified wholesalers out of the US (theres lots in LA) The only thing is that there is a limited number of species that MAC certifies.

GreenSpottedPuffer

01-04-2009, 10:50 PM

justinl

01-04-2009, 11:13 PM

im with you on this one as well. some species just don't belong in the hobby. simple as that, live with it.

GreenSpottedPuffer

01-04-2009, 11:35 PM

im with you on this one as well. some species just don't belong in the hobby. simple as that, live with it.

Oh I can live with it :D

The problem is, people want what they want and we live in a society where we get what we want.

After reading the MAC site, I have to say I am very disappointed that more retailers are not willing to bring in MAC fish. Its a great program and you would think in a country like Canada, it would be used much more.

GreenSpottedPuffer

01-04-2009, 11:39 PM

Oh and for those of you saying certified cyanide free fish are not possible, read the site.

http://www.aquariumcouncil.org/index.html

No its not perfect but its a start and a pretty darn good chance these fish have never come in contact with cyanide or any inhumane collecting. They are tracked the entire way.

chandigz

01-05-2009, 02:07 AM

So there is a MAC certified importer here in Richmond (suburb of Vancouver for those of you who are from other provinces) but I have no idea yet where he sends his fish...I have emailed asking for a retailer.

I would assume he distributes them throughout Canada but I have yet to find a retailer here in town that does buy MAC certified fish :( I am guessing they cost a bit more and most LFS are not willing/caring enough to spend the money. I would love to be able to walk into the shops and see MAC certified tanks. I can understand not devoting an entire store to them but a few tanks would be nice.

Heres an interesting question then...

Forget price for now. If you had the choice to buy MAC fish (humanely caught with certification) but had to limit the species you kept OR buy any species usually available but were taking a chance the fish may be inhumanely caught, which would you buy?

For me its an easy decision. I would have no problem limiting what species I kept if I knew it was for the good of the fish/ocean.

The thing is stores can't market fish as MAC Certified unless they are certified themselves. Our local store has brought in (for stock) and will special order MAC fish. Many stores have looked into the certification, but found the whole thing was a little hokey, costly(for smaller stores or a few tanks), and to much of a hassel(constant endless paperwork). MAC has a good thing going but they need to streamline the whole process along the whole supply line. I know of several exporters that have given up on MAC due to inconsistancies in their policies and process. They still maintain MAC's values and hope to re-establish certification once MAC gets their act together.

slakker

01-05-2009, 02:51 AM

I'd pay double if it was certified AND it came with a 15 day (or whatever) guarantee. The certification by itself will not be enough for me to pay double... if the fish dies, I can't perform a necropsy to confirm so I could be scammed. And not neccesarrily by the retailer, but the supplier or others in the supply chain.

awa1979

01-05-2009, 11:11 AM

GreenSpottedPuffer

01-05-2009, 03:39 PM

I would rather see less species available and have those species humanly caught and with as little environmental damage as possible, then have a huge selection that were caught in questionable ways.

If we stop buying fish that don't belong in captivity, eventually the demand will fall and collection will ease.

If the hobby doesn't police itself, the politicians will eventually and well we know what happens when politicians become involved with things.

I think that is kind of the way its going...

I also think it will just simply end up being a matter of many fish going onto the endangered species list before the collection of them stops. May not be in my lifetime but it clearly will happen. Between overfishing, pollution, climate change and collecting, the ocean is declining fast.

The way things are now for this hobby, its not sustainable.

midgetwaiter

01-07-2009, 05:49 AM

I would assume he distributes them throughout Canada but I have yet to find a retailer here in town that does buy MAC certified fish :( I am guessing they cost a bit more and most LFS are not willing/caring enough to spend the money. I would love to be able to walk into the shops and see MAC certified tanks. I can understand not devoting an entire store to them but a few tanks would be nice.

Heres an interesting question then...

Forget price for now. If you had the choice to buy MAC fish (humanely caught with certification) but had to limit the species you kept OR buy any species usually available but were taking a chance the fish may be inhumanely caught, which would you buy?

I've brought in lots of MAC certified fish over the years working in different shops. I've seen lists from the wholesaler you guys are talking about, they don't usually cost a lot more but there isn't a very large selection of species. I've marked the fish I've brought in as MAC certified, nobody seemed to care. I tend to agree as I didn't see much of a difference in quality.

Once you look into it further MAC is pretty much a joke anyway. They sure spent a lot of money but they haven't accomplished much more than distributing paperwork.

ProReef

01-15-2009, 08:00 PM

We buy all of our fish exclusively from a MAC certified wholesaler. And yes, there is a huge price difference between transhipped fish and our particular wholesaler. We make very little on fish because we are competing with stores that buy from transships, but we are extremely satisfied with the quality.

I'm planning on starting a thread regarding our fish supplier, the quality, my experience in the industry, and our acclimation methods when we've gathered more detailed information. But in the meantime, here's some email correspondance between us and our supplier that you may find interesting:

From: Sales@ProgressiveReef.com [mailto:sales@progressivereef.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:30 AM
To: Eric
Subject: fish quality

Hey Eric,

I'd like some information to tell to my customers regarding the quality of our fish. Could you think me up some nice things to say about you guys?

-------------------------------------------------

From: Eric
To: Sales@ProgressiveReef.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:35 PM
Subject: RE: fish quality

Happy to

You can start by saying that our fish are acclimated using the best electronic controlled ph system available. We also medicate and quarantine our fish during the acclimation process. Then, we aggressively feed our fish the day after arrival and on a day-to-day basis using our own live brine shrimp that is hatched and enriched right here at SDC.

We also feed daily, a plethora of foods all targeting each specific specie to ensure the healthiest quality of fish possible.

How’s that?

Eric

---------------------------------

From: Sales@ProgressiveReef.com [mailto:sales@progressivereef.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:43 PM
To: Eric
Subject: Re: fish quality

That's good, but details are better. :) What separates you from other wholesalers? How confident are you that your collectors aren't using cyanide? I noticed some markings on your boxes that I thought indicated you guys were concerned with sustainable collection practices...etc. Give me your best sales pitch, as much info as possible. :D

----------------------------

Well….those things I mentioned ARE what separate us from the other wholesalers. The other wholesalers don’t raise their own foods, or feed the fish like we do. They don’t acclimate their fish and quarantine them like we do. We are Mac Certified…not sure that means much….but most other wholesalers are not.

We can’t guarantee that our fish are not collected from the philipines or bali without drugs, but we can tell you that we use only the best suppliers that consistently ship fish to us with less than 5% mortality. We have visited our suppliers (others don’t do that) to make sure their facilities are clean and disease free….

We have participated in a three year study with Oregon State University and did a thorough study on shipping diseases, when no other company was interested. We sampled hundreds of fish during the study, and then traveled to Bali with the scientists from the University to further and complete the study.

Anything else specific you can think of?

Eric

GreenSpottedPuffer

01-15-2009, 09:01 PM

^^^Great to hear! Thats what Im talking about!

I like how honest he sounds. Not going to make guarantees that he he can't keep (cyanide) but this is exactly the kind of attitude I wish other wholesalers would have. No the situation would still not be perfect but its a step in the right direction. If its not done, this hobby will disappear one day. Its not sustainable how things are now (which is not just the fault of the hobby though by any means...there are much worse issues in our oceans right now).

I understand in the end its a business. My fiance is starting up a cosmetics line, so we know all about trying to make a profit and keeping costs down. BUT we are not talking about inanimate objects here...these are living creatures, not eye shadows or DVD's. You can't approach this kind of business the same.

IMO if you cannot take the time to make sure you do all you can to ensure the well being of the fish that are being sold, you should find a new career. There are plenty of business opportunities out there where you don't have to care about your product and can make more money than you would selling fish!

I applaude this wholesaler and Progressive Reef for using them! Certainly is progressive, IMO :lol:

Aquatic Addictions

01-15-2009, 09:01 PM

I can say first hand that at a bare minimum I know 3 of my suppliers do NOT use chemicals in their process of fish collection or storing. I do not order from one until I have made the journey to see first hand and meet them face to face spending minumum7-10 days there watching everything. I can say this first hand as I have been to see three of them personally in their respective countries.
Finding a good supplier is hard specially when you see things in these locations you would see no where else in the world. The only way to "ensure" your collection practices/packing/keeping of these fish is to see it first hand.

As for "certified" it is simply a money grab situation as there is no policing the standards they ask for or require for MAC certification . It is nice as a thought of what it could be if carried out properly....but no one would be able to afford the livestock anymore with the extra costs associated with governing the industry to those standards and keeping people honest.

Just my opinion though.

Dan

BlueAbyss

02-02-2009, 08:09 PM

I think that is kind of the way its going...

I also think it will just simply end up being a matter of many fish going onto the endangered species list before the collection of them stops. May not be in my lifetime but it clearly will happen. Between overfishing, pollution, climate change and collecting, the ocean is declining fast.

The way things are now for this hobby, its not sustainable.

Just a note about sustainability...

You honestly think it is aquarists that are destroying the ocean? Ever watched a shrimp boat sweep the sea clean, only to pick a couple shrimps out of the mess of sealife that ends up on the deck of the boat, and shovel all the dead and dying sealife back into the ocean? Few (if any) of the fish that sit up in the sun while they pick through the mess for the shrimp survive...

Look at how destructive fishing for orange roughy is... I mean really, orange roughy is expensive because there are so few left. Like the cod fishery on Canada's east coast, it was just not sustainable, but that doesn't stop people from eating shrimp, cod, orange roughy...

Me buying a pair of wild-caught fish probably did less damage than me eating 5 shrimp at a restaurant, in all reality. But that's just my $.02, others will undoubtedly see this differently. I just watched a TV show about shrimping the other day, and was so unimpressed with the like 5 shrimp that came out of a full net of ocean animals that I'll likely only eat shrimp on special occasions, and will likely never buy them again.

Unless I'm serving them with beluga caviar and a big bucket of sea turtle eggs.:twised:

Snaz

02-02-2009, 09:04 PM

I started this poll and expected to see 90%+ in favour of buying the "certified cyanide free" option. I was surprised by the 60/40 split and some of the responses.

justinl

02-02-2009, 09:44 PM

I just watched a TV show about shrimping the other day, and was so unimpressed with the like 5 shrimp that came out of a full net of ocean animals that I'll likely only eat shrimp on special occasions, and will likely never buy them again.

It just depends which shrimp you eat. Never eat tiger prawns, for example, for the same reasons you stated. But take a gander over to Granville island market and you'll find FRESH trapped prawns. prawn traps are just like crab traps and are 100% sustainable in my mind. plus spot prawns taste 10X better than stinkin asian tiger prawns. Canadian fisheries has a lot of screw ups to fix and answer for, but not all of it is doom and gloom (just most of it :P)

my current favorite picture out of "nature". this sort of sums up shrimp trawling for me. it's a satellite image of an asian shrimp trawling fleet and the sediment they kick up (which then settles and chokes out any and all sessile life).
http://gristmill.grist.org/images/user/7/sharpless.jpg

snaz, im not too surprised. read the rest of the comments and you'll see it's a bit more complicated than the poll options allowed. plus people like their money. we are in a recession after all. for the record, i would because i know how much damage cyanide does on a reef.

edit: blueabyss, i just realised you're not from vancouver... don't know why i thought you were. well, i guess you're hooped then :)

GreenSpottedPuffer

02-03-2009, 12:08 AM

Just a note about sustainability...

You honestly think it is aquarists that are destroying the ocean? Ever watched a shrimp boat sweep the sea clean, only to pick a couple shrimps out of the mess of sealife that ends up on the deck of the boat, and shovel all the dead and dying sealife back into the ocean? Few (if any) of the fish that sit up in the sun while they pick through the mess for the shrimp survive...

Look at how destructive fishing for orange roughy is... I mean really, orange roughy is expensive because there are so few left. Like the cod fishery on Canada's east coast, it was just not sustainable, but that doesn't stop people from eating shrimp, cod, orange roughy...

Me buying a pair of wild-caught fish probably did less damage than me eating 5 shrimp at a restaurant, in all reality. But that's just my $.02, others will undoubtedly see this differently. I just watched a TV show about shrimping the other day, and was so unimpressed with the like 5 shrimp that came out of a full net of ocean animals that I'll likely only eat shrimp on special occasions, and will likely never buy them again.

Unless I'm serving them with beluga caviar and a big bucket of sea turtle eggs.:twised:

No your totally right...I never thought of it like that before. I agree though and feel so much better now! Man I used to think I was kind of selfish but you have really changed my mind. I mean the destruction caused by the hobby that I support really doesn't matter as long as there is something even more destructive out there.

Wow this kind of thinking makes it so much easier to justify things! I think I am going to apply this to my everyday life...Long as someone out there is worse than me, I don't have to worry about my actions :evil:

Honestly, though, you should do some research and open your eyes. Some collectors are destroying the reef at an alarming rate. Cyanide kills something like a square meter of reef for every one fish caught.

Any destruction of the ocean is important to stop right now, big or small. You can't just justify it or shrug it off because someone out there is doing it worse than you.

BlueAbyss

02-05-2009, 05:35 AM

Not what I meant at all, not at all...

I didn't mean that this hobby isn't destructive, what I meant was that we DO have to look at the bigger picture. Sure, reefs are being destroyed at an alarming rate, but probably more because of the effects of climate change, turbidity, and pollution than from the collection of fishes and other sealife for the aquarium trade. I mean, not everyone will pay as much as marine aquarists do for a single fish. What I meant was that there is destruction of all kinds on a much grander scale...

That isn't the point though. I agree with you, how can I not? Dousing reefs with cyanide to catch a fish is ridiculous, and it is in everyone's best interest to minimize that sort of destruction. HOWEVER, I also believe that we need to make other choices to minimize our impact across all ecosystems, which was sort of my point.

I didn't want to start a fight at all, if that's what it sounded like :redface: