Puffer eating clownfish

[my2rotties]

Well here is another reason not to buy mature fish from you LFS...

In all my research I read that puffers ate inverts, but never saw anything about mouth sized fish. However I know its a no brainer since most fish will eat anything they can fit into their mouths.

My false Percula is gone. I got up this morning and saw the male was missing, and the female is being patiently hunted. My maroon clown is much bigger but Griff is hunting for her all well. I know if he can nab her, he will. I soaked a prawn in garlic, chopped it up like Justin said to do, and he ate. However he is still hunting my clowns. He has great interest in my Damsel and man I wish he would catch that little jerk. I would not be sad.

I feel like I have a bad dog that just ate my shoes... I'm a little mad, but there is nothing I can do about it now. At least with a dog you can scold them...I feel awful for my male clown and keep hoping he shows up alive and in one piece. I see no trace of him anywhere, and expected to see pieces or something. I have seen Griff eat his prawns which are cut into bite sized pieces, and there is all sorts of scraps and carnage. I checked my overflows and sump and nothing indicates the fish was eaten. However his

I want to keep Griff and do not think Wai's would take him back. I did tell him what types of fish I had, and he never said a large puffer would eat them. I asked. So here I am a silly newbie with a rather large puffer that eats my fish. I figured he would back off the clowns when I fed him, but he really enjoys hunting I see. If I can catch the clowns before he does, I will have to rehome them.

He loves the rock wall at the back and does get my snails. He scoops them in his mouth and spins them around. I am not sure if he is sucking them out or not. I was preoccupied with finding my clowns. So this guy will accept prawns but he would much rather eat live fare. It makes sense to me that he would since he was already mature when he was caught.

Any advise on what I can try to do or live fish I can feed would be a great thing now. I really wanted some sand sifting fish for this tank but it may not be an option since this guy is so big.

I sure learned a lot from this one fish already, sigh. Too bad the clowns really do not take him that seriously and he almost gets them every time. I'm sure my male was slow to move and that was it. I have the rest of the week off but I can't stand here and try to scoot him off all the time. He is a slow swimmer but he is very patient, I know he will win. I have no clue how I will catch the clowns myself since I am not that patient or quick.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Sorry to hear about your clowns. I have to disagree though about him being like a bad puppy who ate your shoe and needs to be scolded :lol: Well actually I guess your kind of right but IMO its different. I know you already understand this but he came from the ocean at a decent size and his instincts are going to be much stronger than a baby porc (another reason big fish sould not be taken from the ocean). He grew up as an opportunistic predator who had to eat when he got the chance. If he ever found "tame" clowns in the ocean who did not try hard to swim away, there was no way he was going to leave them alone because he had already eaten a few prawns. They are eating machines! :mrgreen:

I feel really bad for you and really, really hope this doesn't change how you feel about Griff. In your PM to me I got a good feeling about how much you care for this fish and obviously want whats best for him. Being that he was taken from the ocean at such a big size, he deserves a good home in a big tank like yours. If you take him back, he will most likely end up in a smaller tank. You really can't blame him for doing what he knows he has to do to stay alive. He will slowly loose the instincts to a degree and actually get somewhat lazy, only ever waiting for you to feed him. Eventually only you and the prawns you offer him will register as food to him.

I have had the exact same thing happen a few years ago. I had a nice pair of black and white clowns in a 180G and added a 6-7" Mappa Puffer. He hit the water, swam about a foot and came across the female clown. One bite and she was gone infront of my eyes. The male soon followed. Then my goby, damsels (there is hope there) and every other small fish was eaten over the next few weeks. After about 6 months or so though I tried some damsels again and he never killed anymore. They were my clean up crew. I think mine was another case of a decent sized fish being taken from the ocean and the problems it can lead to. I have had several puffers since then but bought all of them around 2-3" and not one has ever killed another fish.

Please give him a chance. He really isn't bad, just doing what he knows. He will make a great PET, unlike most fish. I know your an avid dog lover and this is as close as it gets with fish! There is a reason they are called Aquatic Puppies.

Can I recommend you add a trigger fish or two? Ideal tankmates for puffers and just as much personality as puffers. I would go with a pair of Blue throats in your tank or a Niger. Stay away from the overly aggressive ones like Clowns, Queens or Titans. Pink Tail is another great choice. If you want to get really expensive a single or pair of Crosshatches would be ok in your tank. A 260G is just enough for Crosshatches I think.

Also look into a bigger species of tang (not too big of course) and maybe a grouper to finish the tank off. Be careful with the grouper though because you don't want to end up with one that gets too big for the tank!

Good luck!

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Both large puffers were probably hungry as well, since an LFS is less likely to feed them well compared to what you or I would do at home. Yes, they were also used to eating anything that they can catch in their mouths.

I was lucky that the bigger puffer was only 3.5-4" when I bought it for Irene & so it adapted to eating frozen and freeze dried foods fairly easily, with only a couple of casualties (2 slow clowns as well). However, since then, the two puffers have been model citizens, leaving all my other fish alone.

Clowns are slow swimmers so if you have a net ready when you feed some floating foods, you might be able to scoop it out when the last clown comes up to eat.

Anthony

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Both large puffers were probably hungry as well, since an LFS is less likely to feed them well compared to what you or I would do at home. Yes, they were also used to eating anything that they can catch in their mouths.

I was lucky that the bigger puffer was only 3.5-4" when I bought it for Irene & so it adapted to eating frozen and freeze dried foods fairly easily, with only a couple of casualties (2 slow clowns as well). However, since then, the two puffers have been model citizens, leaving all my other fish alone.

Clowns are slow swimmers so if you have a net ready when you feed some floating foods, you might be able to scoop it out when the last clown comes up to eat.

Anthony

Yup another great point...LFS don't feed puffers well enough usually.

I remember J&L (who I think do feed them well actually) had a Starry puffer that started eating all the dwarf lionfish. I think they said he ate like 3-4 in a few days.

[my2rotties]

Don't worry Justin, he is staying. It's my fault that I brought him home and I learned a big first hand lesson. I know its not his fault, but why can't he catch the stupid damsel fish. I hate that guy, and Griff would be off my poop list. I will have to figure out how to catch the remaining clowns and rehome them. I just hope he doesn't get my Mandarin goby, I would be beyond ****ed. Skipper is my little elusive buddy. The purple dartfish has no worries since he can vanish in a split second. My anemone died so the clowns can't even hide right now. Mind you, I see pufferes housed with lionfish getting strung constantly. I am sure he would eat the anemone too... He would probably laugh at its sting.

The two remaining clownfish seem to be more savvy to Griff now. It is like a National Geographic show in my tank. Griff LOVES to hunt, and I am sure he will settle down eventually. At least he has a hobby now, instead of gazing out the window all day.:smile:

What can you do... he is a wild animal and it is to be expected. I am glad I didn't see the clown get eaten, that must have been awful to watch knowing how they eat. I think I would rehome every other fish before bringing Griff back to the store. I just hope I can find fish from fellow members so I know they care about the fish and not selling it.

He is leaving Cash the purple tang alone so my husband is fine. I might get what I wanted in the end... a tank FULL of puffers.:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

He is so darned cute with that perma smile, how could I bring him back. He looks so happy hunting the rock wall, and the clowns are brightly coloured like krill.

BTW... You should move to the forest in Bragg Creek, you can get 2-4 acres and a nice big house for about what you were going to pay for a condo pout in Vancover... bring my dogfaced puffer with you. He already has a name.:wink:

[my2rotties]

Gryphon is about 8-9" long. I am not sure how much bigger he will get from here. I find my clowns can shoot off like a bullet when they needc to. They are brutal to catch and with all the rocks and rescaping I did last night, I will never catch them. They seem to know better now though.

I have to say watching Gryphon hunt is amazing. He pretends to be doing something else entirely and then scoots over to the clowns. The damsel keeps messing with him, and Gryphon is focusing on him for now. I would pay him to get the little jerk.

Both large puffers were probably hungry as well, since an LFS is less likely to feed them well compared to what you or I would do at home. Yes, they were also used to eating anything that they can catch in their mouths.

I was lucky that the bigger puffer was only 3.5-4" when I bought it for Irene & so it adapted to eating frozen and freeze dried foods fairly easily, with only a couple of casualties (2 slow clowns as well). However, since then, the two puffers have been model citizens, leaving all my other fish alone.

Clowns are slow swimmers so if you have a net ready when you feed some floating foods, you might be able to scoop it out when the last clown comes up to eat.

Anthony

[sphelps]

Yeap puffers definitely eat fish, I use to feed mine goldfish :mrgreen:

[my2rotties]

Do they die when you put them in salt water? I would guess that would be "yes". He really loves to hunt but most fish would be hard to catch. The clowns and dartfish are fine now, but they probably won't sleep at night for a LONG time. Gryphon really has it out for the damsel fish but that won't be happening anytime soon. The damsel is way bigger then the clowns so I shudder at how he will eat it if he gets a lucky shot.

How do you feed them goldfish? I better not be getting any orange fish after that as well.

Well he almost got the maroon clown he is much faster then I gave him credit for... I love having my desk beside the tank I don't miss much.

Yeap puffers definitely eat fish, I use to feed mine goldfish :mrgreen:

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Do they die when you put them in salt water? I would guess that would be "yes". He really loves to hunt but most fish would be hard to catch. The clowns and dartfish are fine now, but they probably won't sleep at night for a LONG time. Gryphon really has it out for the damsel fish but that won't be happening anytime soon. The damsel is way bigger then the clowns so I shudder at how he will eat it if he gets a lucky shot.

How do you feed them goldfish? I better not be getting any orange fish after that as well.

Well he almost got the maroon clown he is much faster then I gave him credit for... I love having my desk beside the tank I don't miss much.

Please do not feed freshwater fish to saltwater predators. It is one of the worst things you could feed a puffer. The only time I would ever feel the need to try this is with something like a angler fish who will absolutely only eat live foods. Guppies would be the choice though, not goldfish. Puffers will eat frozen foods. They do not need to hunt. Yours is already eating prawn, so you are lucky. Keep him on a good diet. Try as much different fresh but frozen sea foods as you can. You can buy them fresh but make sure you freeze them. You never know what nasty parasites are on fresh foods. Then thaw them in vitamins and feed.

Don't get you puffer in the habit of eating freshwater fish for no reason. It will lead to a shortened life. Freshwater feeders lack HUFA's(highly unsaturated fatty acids) which are vital to marine fishes diet. Live freshwater feeder fish can also have a variety of diseases and infections that can lead to infections in your puffer. Very bad idea. Try to stick to their natural diet if possible. I highly doubt if a wild puffer has ever eaten a goldfish ;)

Remember your trying to keep things are natural as possible for your puffer. Try to get some mussels, clams and maybe some squid.

[fishoholic]

I gave 2 three striped damsels to my friend who has puffers, triggers and lion fish. I warned her they were elusive evil little buggers, she warned me they would probably be lunch. I believe (and her puffers had eaten other small fish before) after 4-5 months all that happened with the damsels is that they would pester her trigger! She ended up rehomeing them, I don't know what'll happen with your damsel but it might live for awhile yet!

[my2rotties]

Thanks again Justin. I wondered about feeding freshwater fish to a puffer. Once I get the clowns into my refugium he will just have to eat what I give him. Its just too bad it got broken when the hole was being drilled. I have to wait a couple of days for the silicone to dry. I may not even be able to catch them, but Gryphon probably will. I am sure that damsel fish will outlive me the little jerk. He was a good fish until he got moved into the 260g. He keeps Gryphon busy though.

I've been trying the prawns with garlic (wish I had some of them for dinner myself), but he laughs at me. Clownfish must be pretty tasty.


Please do not feed freshwater fish to saltwater predators. It is one of the worst things you could feed a puffer. The only time I would ever feel the need to try this is with something like a angler fish

who will absolutely only eat live foods. Guppies would be the choice though, not goldfish. Puffers will eat frozen foods. They do not need to hunt. Yours is already eating prawn, so you are lucky. Keep him on a good diet. Try as much different fresh but frozen sea foods as you can. You can buy them fresh but make sure you freeze them. You never know what nasty parasites are on fresh foods. Then thaw them in vitamins and feed.

Don't get you puffer in the habit of eating freshwater fish for no reason. It will lead to a shortened life. Freshwater feeders lack HUFA's(highly unsaturated fatty acids) which are vital to marine fishes diet. Live freshwater feeder fish can also have a variety of diseases and infections that can lead to infections in your puffer. Very bad idea. Try to stick to their natural diet if possible. I highly doubt if a wild puffer has ever eaten a goldfish ;)

Remember your trying to keep things are natural as possible for your puffer. Try to get some mussels, clams and maybe some squid.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

What did he eat though? I thought he was eating prawns?

[sphelps]

Do they die when you put them in salt water? I would guess that would be "yes". He really loves to hunt but most fish would be hard to catch. The clowns and dartfish are fine now, but they probably won't sleep at night for a LONG time. Gryphon really has it out for the damsel fish but that won't be happening anytime soon. The damsel is way bigger then the clowns so I shudder at how he will eat it if he gets a lucky shot.

How do you feed them goldfish? I better not be getting any orange fish after that as well.

Well he almost got the maroon clown he is much faster then I gave him credit for... I love having my desk beside the tank I don't miss much.
They'll live for about 30min in saltwater. The puffer I had was quick and persistent when he wanted to be, it really was surprising and pretty cool.
I just put the gold fish directly in the tank, about 2 min later they were gone and the tank would be full of gold flakes :biggrin:

[sphelps]

Please do not feed freshwater fish to saltwater predators. It is one of the worst things you could feed a puffer. The only time I would ever feel the need to try this is with something like a angler fish who will absolutely only eat live foods. Guppies would be the choice though, not goldfish. Puffers will eat frozen foods. They do not need to hunt. Yours is already eating prawn, so you are lucky. Keep him on a good diet. Try as much different fresh but frozen sea foods as you can. You can buy them fresh but make sure you freeze them. You never know what nasty parasites are on fresh foods. Then thaw them in vitamins and feed.

Don't get you puffer in the habit of eating freshwater fish for no reason. It will lead to a shortened life. Freshwater feeders lack HUFA's(highly unsaturated fatty acids) which are vital to marine fishes diet. Live freshwater feeder fish can also have a variety of diseases and infections that can lead to infections in your puffer. Very bad idea. Try to stick to their natural diet if possible. I highly doubt if a wild puffer has ever eaten a goldfish ;)

Remember your trying to keep things are natural as possible for your puffer. Try to get some mussels, clams and maybe some squid.
It was just for fun, not regular diet. He never gave up eating regular food either. If I didn't sell the tank I would still have him.

By your reasoning you shouldn't even keep puffers or any fish, which is crueler? I mean the worst thing you can really do to a puffer is take it out of the ocean not feed it freshwater fish.

[my2rotties]

He did eazt the first night I had him, some prawns and krill. Yesterday he was not too interested in anything I gave him. Today he had a clownfish and he did eat half a garlic prawn, but refused anymore. He is hunting and is really enjoying himself. I will try again in awhile to give him his prawn. I did what you said with the feeding stick and after ten minutes we both got tired of my antics. He went to his tunnel and I had to change my shirt. A tank that is 30" deep sucks to do anything with.

What did he eat though? I thought he was eating prawns?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

It was just for fun, not regular diet. He never gave up eating regular food either. If I didn't sell the tank I would still have him.

By your reasoning you shouldn't even keep puffers or any fish, which is crueler? I mean the worst thing you can really do to a puffer is take it out of the ocean not feed it freshwater fish.

Give me a break...you know exactly what I mean. :rolleyes:

Why would you take it from the ocean AND feed it a horrible diet?

You said you used to feed your puffer goldfish, not that you used to give him goldfish treats. Either way its wrong and when someone is relatively new to the hobby don't give them advice like that unless your clear about it.

[superduperwesman]

ahah ahah I was really curious to see this thread "Puffer eating clownfish"

I thought that somehow your clownfish liked eating puffers... ahah so needless to say I'm a little disappointed

[fishytime]

I for 1 dont blame you at all.....I blame the person who sold you the fish. Wouldnt have happened in our shop. You would have been asked what other fish you had and what you planed to keep it with. Then you would have been informed of most everything you are being told here. If you were intent on buying the fish at least your decision to do so would have been an informed one.

[mark]

Never really thought about Puffers eating fish until I read this post today and was a little surprised. Now out of nowhere the wife just calls and asks if I want a Puffer for my tank (which has damsels, clowns and chromis) as her co-work is thinking about getting rid of one. Talk about timing.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Never really thought about Puffers eating fish until I read this post today and was a little surprised. Now out of nowhere the wife just calls and asks if I want a Puffer for my tank (which has damsels, clowns and chromis) as her co-work is thinking about getting rid of one. Talk about timing.

It really depends on the size and where it came from. Most puffers will not seek out fish to eat from your tank. I think its just more common with larger specimens that have just come from the ocean.

I have kept many puffers over the years (12 years of puffers including freshwater and brackish) and only had that one mappa ever eat live fish form the tank.

For example I would be extremely shocked to hear of a dogface eating tankmates. They are one of the most gentle puffers you will come across. They do eat most inverts and some coral though.

[my2rotties]

My puffer is a very large fish whom spent his life in the wild until recently. He hunted on the reefs and now that he is in my 260g, he feels he is on a reef again. I was a little upset, but I have no regrets in buying him. He came form a reef, was stuffed in a small empty store display tank, and then came to my husband's work of art. I am happy he feels so comfortable that he wants to hunt like in the old days. If I can catch the clowns before he does, I will be rehoming them. He is the mostawesome fish and it is great to watch him behave like a wild fish. He constantly changes hunting methods and is always thinking. I read they are very inactive fish, but he used every single inch of this tank and checks out every nook and cranny for food. He made this tank build worth while.

Never really thought about Puffers eating fish until I read this post today and was a little surprised. Now out of nowhere the wife just calls and asks if I want a Puffer for my tank (which has damsels, clowns and chromis) as her co-work is thinking about getting rid of one. Talk about timing.

[my2rotties]

I will never go to that store again. I usually don't but hubby had to pick up pipe fittings and that was the only place that had them that he knew of. He saw Gryphon, and knew I would love him. I asked many questions and asked if my other fish were safe. I was going to go with a smaller puffer, but this guy seemed so special, not only due to his size. His colouring, eye brightness and general health far surpassed any of the others.

Shoot me a PM and let me know what store you are from...

I for 1 dont blame you at all.....I blame the person who sold you the fish. Wouldnt have happened in our shop. You would have been asked what other fish you had and what you planed to keep it with. Then you would have been informed of most everything you are being told here. If you were intent on buying the fish at least your decision to do so would have been an informed one.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

My puffer is a very large fish whom spent his life in the wild until recently. He hunted on the reefs and now that he is in my 260g, he feels he is on a reef again. I was a little upset, but I have no regrets in buying him. He came form a reef, was stuffed in a small empty store display tank, and then came to my husband's work of art. I am happy he feels so comfortable that he wants to hunt like in the old days. If I can catch the clowns before he does, I will be rehoming them. He is the mostawesome fish and it is great to watch him behave like a wild fish. He constantly changes hunting methods and is always thinking. I read they are very inactive fish, but he used every single inch of this tank and checks out every nook and cranny for food. He made this tank build worth while.

From the sounds of it, he is acting quite natural in your tank and that is a great thing. Porcs do tend to be inactive in general but it depends on the individual. They are usually nocturnal but not always. When diving in Trinidad last year we encountered many porcs and they were all awake in the daytime exploring. They would actually come right up to you and check out what you were doing. They would not quite get within arms length but pretty close. I wasn't too thrilled when our guide grabbed one but it never inflated and didn't seem to mind everyone petting it. It must have been about 13" and much wider/thicker than any I have ever seen in a tank.

LOL...they are so easy to catch. They are slow but its not even that. They seem to be very curious about people and not too fearful. I think the ones we saw see people quite often though. There was a grouper who knew people will feed him...he was a pain following us around begging for food :)

[my2rotties]

Well this guy was up probably most of last night, the entire day, and now his hunting strategy is to sleep right besdie the clownfish's coral that she is hosting. I put argonite in the water before lights out so he looks like a ghost with a mask in the murky water. His tail is hardly an inch away from the clown and he appears to be napping. NO fish has ever entertained me like this guy. Ed my older foxface was a smart guy due to his age, and this guy is no different. People whom think fish are stupid don't know what they are talking about. I wish I knew how old he was, the store said 18 months (how do they know honestly?), I already worry about his lifespan.

I would like to get a few small crabs to keep him busy perhaps. I will be really surprised if this clown makes it through the night. I wish I could catch her darned it.

From the sounds of it, he is acting quite natural in your tank and that is a great thing. Porcs do tend to be inactive in general but it depends on the individual. They are usually nocturnal but not always. When diving in Trinidad last year we encountered many porcs and they were all awake in the daytime exploring. They would actually come right up to you and check out what you were doing. They would not quite get within arms length but pretty close. I wasn't too thrilled when our guide grabbed one but it never inflated and didn't seem to mind everyone petting it. It must have been about 13" and much wider/thicker than any I have ever seen in a tank.

LOL...they are so easy to catch. They are slow but its not even that. They seem to be very curious about people and not too fearful. I think the ones we saw see people quite often though. There was a grouper who knew people will feed him...he was a pain following us around begging for food :)

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

For live crabs, let your LFS know that you want them so that when they get in a shipment of live rock, they can save you the hitchhikers in the cooler box. The LFS around here usually get 5-10 at least every shipment, if not more.

Being on the coast, my wife & I like to drive out to the shore & pick up some live shore crabs under the rocks at low tide.

Anthony

[midgetwaiter]

I will never go to that store again. I usually don't but hubby had to pick up pipe fittings and that was the only place that had them that he knew of. He saw Gryphon, and knew I would love him. I asked many questions and asked if my other fish were safe.

IMO that's a bit of an over reaction. Puffers and triggers have more individual differences than other fish and that makes it difficult to give advice in this situation. They also have moods.

I've kept many different types of puffers over the years and the only thing I know for sure is that you never know what they are going to do. My Green Spotted puffer killed 6 blue damsels overnight once but never touched another fish in the 12 years I had him. Porcupine puffers are even more moody, I used to maintain a tank that had a 12" one who was a model citizen until he decided to tear a fire clown in half one day. He never did it again.

I wouldn't be surprised if you porc never killed another fish, they aren't naturally Piscivores. I wouldn't be surprised if it did though.

[Red Coral Aquariums]

my2rotties;
I have just read this thread through and am sorry to hear about your unfortunate circumstances.
On another note puffers are so much fun to watch and feed and they have SO much personality, congrats on your purchase.
As far as the "I will never go to that store again." the responsibility is ultimately on you to research your purchase. LFS's should give you responsible advise but in the end it is your decision.
We have a Spiny Puffer that a customer had purchased in town when it was very small but as it grew; fish in his tank started to disappear. So if you are interested in a tank of puffers we have an excellent one that can be hand fed ( but will eat anything that will fit in it's mouth) for a very good deal.
Kevin

[Pier Pressure]

I think you should maybe go back to the lfs and talk to Danny. I have taken creatures back to him before that did not work out in my system and was given straight-across store credit for them. Just FYI I am sure he would be willing to do something for you.

[superduperwesman]

I think you should maybe go back to the lfs and talk to Danny. I have taken creatures back to him before that did not work out in my system and was given straight-across store credit for them. Just FYI I am sure he would be willing to do something for you.

I've also exchanged something at lfs and they generally seem pretty good about it "as long as it doesn't happen all the time"

[fishytime]

I think you should maybe go back to the lfs and talk to Danny. I have taken creatures back to him before that did not work out in my system and was given straight-across store credit for them. Just FYI I am sure he would be willing to do something for you.

Take it back??? So he can tell someone else to put it in with their clownfish??? Customers of LFSs unite. Dont deal with stores that give crappy advice....period.

[sphelps]

Why would you take it from the ocean AND feed it a horrible diet?

You said you used to feed your puffer goldfish, not that you used to give him goldfish treats. Either way its wrong and when someone is relatively new to the hobby don't give them advice like that unless your clear about it.
For entertainment my friend, the same reason I setup and anyone else sets up a saltwater tank, not because its the humane thing to do. And like I said it wasn't the diet.

I never told anyone to feed their puffer anything, I simply made the point that puffers will most certainly eat other fish which seems to be related to the topic. So I'm not sure why you would say what I said was wrong?

[superduperwesman]

Take it back??? So he can tell someone else to put it in with their clownfish???

Hopefully the next person will be smart enough to do there research (not that I always do)

[superduperwesman]

Yeap puffers definitely eat fish, I use to feed mine goldfish :mrgreen:

Yeah I guess the point was that they eat goldfish... not that Goldfish are healthy.

I also see how this could be misinterpreted to make it seem like Goldfish are a good diet but I don't think that was the point.

At the end of the day I think you both make good points that aren't conflicting.

sphelps: It's cool to see a puffer eat a fish from time to time and gold fish are cheap.

greenspottedpuffer: Goldfish are not a quality food source for a puffer.

[sphelps]

haha, peacekeeper. Well done.

[my2rotties]

I did my research on puffers, but until you have a problem you don't really know what to look for. It is my fault for buying the fish BUT I asked many questions. Danny is a businessman he has bills to pay and told me what he could. He has hundreds of fish but he said he had this guy for at least two months. Having a fish that long I would think you would know a bit about him. I know a lot about this puffer and I have only had him three days...

My big deal with shopping there is just the ethics of bringing in mature reef fish from the wild. He has gorgous corals and beautiful fish... I just think when you are in the best interest of the animals you sell for a living, you would care for their well being. The 16" tang can hardly turn around in his tank. I was told the other one like him went to a 180g tank and that was enough for him... I look at my seven foot wide 260 and think that fish would suffer in what I have. If people, special order these fish that is one thing. For a fish to be stuffed in a little display until some person buys them is another...

If I had the $300 for that fish that night I would have bought him because I feel sorry for him. I would have brought him home and felt sorry for that fish for all the days he managed to eek out a life in my little tank. When we build our tanks, we want joy out of them not sadness. I am glad I posted about it and I am glad others feel as I do. I do not blame Danny but he does have bills to pay... You open a store to make money, support your hobby and make a living out of doing what you love to do. There are other store I have been to where the people honestly care about the fish. They have nothing to lose because if that fish dies they are not out any money at all.

My puffer will always be here, I know I could exchange him for other fish, but he is so happy here. To have a wild fish hunting and doing what he was doing on the reef, means I have succeeded in making him comfortable. He is not a big fish in my tank although he looked gigantic at Danny's. He fits right in, and now I know I need to buy mature tank raised fish that outgrew their owners smaller tanks. I would feel much better about that since the owners care for the fish, and they will be so happy to see them in my tank. I am a newbie BUT I do whatever needs to be done for my fish.

The two clownfish made it through the night, so perhaps others are right... he won't eat another one. He is a very patient hunter though and he might still get his way. He is very fun to watch and I have been neglecting other things in my house gawking at him. I know I made the right choice even though I paid way too much for him. I know if I bought any other I would always think of him.

[sphelps]

Talking about ethics and bringing in large fish, you would be surprised how often retailers receive fish they didn't order. Retailers usually have to order direct rather than through wholesalers to compete with competitors and get a better variety of stock. The problems associated are usually related to poor communication capabilities. For example, sometimes you order a "large" tang and you'll get a 6" tang, another time you'll get a 16" tang. And sometime you'll get something you didn't even order and probably never would. There simply just isn't as much control as some might think or hope for.

Unfortunately it's more complicated than just blaming retailers, in the end we the hobbyists are to blame.

[superduperwesman]

I still think you're in the wrong hobby based on a lot of your threads and posts

[my2rotties]

Well he said he paid way more for the bigger fish because only one fish would fit in the styrofoam crates they ship in. So I figured he had ordered the larger fish since he had to pay more to ship them. That is according to what he said.

Talking about ethics and bringing in large fish, you would be surprised how often retailers receive fish they didn't order. Retailers usually have to order direct rather than through wholesalers to compete with competitors and get a better variety of stock. The problems associated are usually related to poor communication capabilities. For example, sometimes you order a "large" tang and you'll get a 6" tang, another time you'll get a 16" tang. And sometime you'll get something you didn't even order and probably never would. There simply just isn't as much control as some might think or hope for.

Unfortunately it's more complicated than just blaming retailers, in the end we the hobbyists are to blame.

[my2rotties]

I got into the hobby since my foxface and his tank were left in the house by the previous owners.

I feel that I am in the right hobby and any fish that lives in my tank (unless you are clownfish), will have the very best of everything.

Just because I chose to pursue this hobby further does not mean I condone suffering and depletion of the reefs due to poor ethics. Large fish should not be allowed to be caught as they are future generations that will breed and provide more fish for reefs and hobbists alike. Large fish have lived long enough to be fit and healthy, they deserve a chance. If we take these fish away from reefs the weaker fish will breed and weaken the future genrations. Have you not seen what has happened to the Cheetah in Africa?

I have hiked the Bow and Elbow river a million times and seen fish and wildlife monitering fishermen to make sure the small fish are not being kept so they could contribute to a new generation of fish... why is there no laws for reef fish? The larger fish have reproduced and finished the circle of life already. Yes I am contradicting what I am saying by that statement, but mature river fish will not be put into tanks for the rest of their lives. If stores had ethics and I am not saying most do not, they would not want to buy large mature fish. If the demand for these fish was not there, nobody would be catching them, would they? The way they get caught is deporable and at least I am now aware of it, and want to see changes. It does not mean that I hate the hobby. It means that if people are aware and care, maybe we can make a difference in how things are done. Look at the shark fin industry? It makes me sick and something needs to be done. If governments did something about it, maybe change would happen. If enough people speak out maybe it would happen. If we comply no better comes of it...

Because I am a newbie I make a point to ask questions to to others with knowledge and experience. Even if those questions are contraversal in nature. I believe we must speak for those that cannot speak for themselves.

Just because my feelings may be different to others opinions, does not mean I would push my views onto them. However I will always ask the questions since they need to be asked.

I love this hobby and love the people I have met on these forums. I am a newbie but that does not mean I am not entitled to have my own views and opinions. I have no hard feeling for being called out on this matter since rebuttal teaches all parties different views and ways of thinking.

I still think you're in the wrong hobby based on a lot of your threads and posts

[Floop70]

Talking about ethics and bringing in large fish, you would be surprised how often retailers receive fish they didn't order. Retailers usually have to order direct rather than through wholesalers to compete with competitors and get a better variety of stock. The problems associated are usually related to poor communication capabilities. For example, sometimes you order a "large" tang and you'll get a 6" tang, another time you'll get a 16" tang. And sometime you'll get something you didn't even order and probably never would. There simply just isn't as much control as some might think or hope for.

Unfortunately it's more complicated than just blaming retailers, in the end we the hobbyists are to blame.

I have a friend who is a retailer and I agree with Steve on this one. It seems that at least one fish per shipment is wrong. Anything from the wrong species to the wrong size or even one he didn't order at all. Thankfully he hasn't received any 16" fish yet. :smile:

any fish that lives in my tank (unless you are clownfish), :lol: That made me chuckle.

Hope your new puffer makes the trip from BC safely and enjoys his new home.

[superduperwesman]

I am a newbie but that does not mean I am not entitled to have my own views and opinions.

Never said you weren't entitled to you opinion. I'm just saying that based on what I've seen of your opinions I don't think this hobby is for you.

Doesn't mean you have to agree, or that you have to leave the hobby, it just means that in my mind a lot of your comments don't exactly mesh with the hobby.

I just don't understand how you enjoy the hobby with all these internal conflicts/struggles you seem to be having.

Fish die... but you seem to take it hard, or you did with Eddy, but it's going to happen again. Are you going to get a memorial tattoo for every time??

Your taking fish that are from the huge ocean and shoving them in a little glass box for your own personal enjoyment... the hobby is one that sources from selfishness I guess everyone has different lines for how selfish we can be but it seems like your trying to play both sides.

"I don't think large fish should be caught there should be laws but... I have a big puffer in my tank that's "so special" in part because of his size ... but I saved him from the tiny store tank"

"Take him back"... "What? Never... why so some else can buy him? I wont make them suffer by making such a ridiculous purchase."

Your encouraging a market that you supposedly don't like by keeping a big fish... take it back and let the guy sit on it if it's so unethical... if someone else buys it at least your conscience can be clear.

Oh wait... now he's not that big for your tank now... well neither are some of these other fish your trying to make laws about when they're in other peoples tanks.

But right now all I hear is you complaining about a problem that your currently contributing to. Your enormous posts simplified are you battling between your selfishness and your guilt. Find your line quickly or pretty soon vendors wont be selling you the fish you want b/c ur bashing them afterward... even though you'd do it all over.

Good thing I'm not a lfs owner cause I'd reserve the right to refuse you business, but $20 says you'll be back to a lfs before the months end.

[sphelps]

Well he said he paid way more for the bigger fish because only one fish would fit in the styrofoam crates they ship in. So I figured he had ordered the larger fish since he had to pay more to ship them. That is according to what he said.
Not necessarily, it sounds like he was explaining why the bigger fish cost more, it's still very likely he didn't order it that big. I would bet he sold the fish for close to "cost" since he paid so much for shipping. Why purposely bring in large fish when you make more money selling smaller fish and they are easier to move?

[sphelps]

I agree with Wes and I stand by my previous statement that we hobbyists are to blame.

If you're against bringing in large fish or certain species of fish, despite what you might think, buying them doesn't help the situation. You're only supporting the exact cause you're against.

In order to make a difference you should not purchase the fish you're against bringing in. That way the retailer is more likely to sit on the fish and yes it might die but the retailer will loose money and might take further efforts to avoid bringing in the same fish. By purchasing the fish you may think you're helping but you're not, the retailer now thinks that the fish sold and he could sell another. Simple supply and demand, the theory of any business.

[my2rotties]

I know mistakes are made and that cannot be helped. I don't frown upon that at all. I also don't blame Danny for my fish. He has a whole store to run, and I cannot bear my puffer's liking of sushi on him. I just wish I knew there was a chance. At least I know he is eating...:lol:

I am really happy about the new puffer I hate the holidays but now I have something to look forward to. At least I have some time off to watch my tank and get some work done around this house.


I have a friend who is a retailer and I agree with Steve on this one. It seems that at least one fish per shipment is wrong. Anything from the wrong species to the wrong size or even one he didn't order at all. Thankfully he hasn't received any 16" fish yet. :smile:

:lol: That made me chuckle.

Hope your new puffer makes the trip from BC safely and enjoys his new home.

[my2rotties]

We all learn from our mistakes and grow from them. I didn't pick my puffer due to his size, but his health and movement. I love a good arguement so keep it coming. I am not on any high horse, but now know what I know. My puffer is not special due to his size, he is special because he is an awesome fish. I did take Ed very hard since he is the reason I went to bigger and better. I wanted that fish to have a big tank and room to swim. When I moved into this house I almost killed him half a dozen times due to my lack of knowledge. It is a shame I finally am here with this tank which was for him, and he died three days short of making it into it. I have a memorial tattoo for my Rottweilers, but have not even considered a fish. Maybe I will get a reef done on my back some day, thanks for an awesome idea. I appreciate it. It would be spectacular to say the least.:mrgreen:

We live in a throw away society and always just "get another one". Perhaps if we think about why things happen and don't just get something to replace another we would be in a much better place with this world. Yes I am selfish for being in this hobby, yes I want a reef in this house. However I will not contribute to the unethical treatment of animals if possible. I am not perfect by all means but I want to always better myself by lessons I have learned.

Of course I will be back to a LFS, just not that one. I unknowingly bought a fish that was larger because he was caught as an older fish. I did not even consider it until I saw him hunting like a wild animal hunts. My bad, not the puffer's. Whats done is done... It happened for a reason, and I learned a big lesson for it. I won't bring him back to the store now since I picked him and will deal with it. Just because I am a retard does not mean the fish should suffer any more stress by being brought back to the store. He is not a piece of clothing, he is a living creature. You can just bet that I won't do it again. Any large mature fish will be a captive raised fish that outgrew his owner's tank. You can bet on it. My next puffer is exactly that, so I learned and did something with my new knowledge on my mistake.

I won't be buying any more clownfish, at least not these little false percs. That would be even more selfish on my behalf in the end. I am rehoming them soon. My refugium will be set up tonight and I will go snorkling to catch them and keep them safe until homes will be found. If I get another clownfish you can bet I will be asking what kind I should look into and if they will be safe against my hungry piglet.

I do think you fail to understand my point and that is alright by me. It is sometimes hard to convey a message when expression cannot be seen and written word is only there to speak on one's behalf. I am a decent person that is not staring down at anybody, I just don't know better in many aspects of this hobby. As a consumer I have the option to shop where I want to shop. If one place does not work for me, I will go to another. At the end of the day it is me whom has to live with myself. I do take the deaths of my fish seriously because it is my responsibility to keep the safe and healthy. When they die of old age it is one thing, but when they die due to the lack of my knowledge it is my fault.

I knew I would open up a can of worms when I started these two different topics, but debating and education in the debate is the best knowledge anyone can glean in life. At least I know I should not feel so badly about certain issues and if I did not bring these topics forward I would be beating myself over it. At least I can relax and enjoy my hobby but still have lines drawn for my own personal ethics on what I think is right. Does not mean everyone needs to do what I do, but at least I feel I made a difference in my world.

Never said you weren't entitled to you opinion. I'm just saying that based on what I've seen of your opinions I don't think this hobby is for you.

Doesn't mean you have to agree, or that you have to leave the hobby, it just means that in my mind a lot of your comments don't exactly mesh with the hobby.

I just don't understand how you enjoy the hobby with all these internal conflicts/struggles you seem to be having.

Fish die... but you seem to take it hard, or you did with Eddy, but it's going to happen again. Are you going to get a memorial tattoo for every time??

Your taking fish that are from the huge ocean and shoving them in a little glass box for your own personal enjoyment... the hobby is one that sources from selfishness I guess everyone has different lines for how selfish we can be but it seems like your trying to play both sides.

"I don't think large fish should be caught there should be laws but... I have a big puffer in my tank that's "so special" in part because of his size ... but I saved him from the tiny store tank"

"Take him back"... "What? Never... why so some else can buy him? I wont make them suffer by making such a ridiculous purchase."

Your encouraging a market that you supposedly don't like by keeping a big fish... take it back and let the guy sit on it if it's so unethical... if someone else buys it at least your conscience can be clear.

Oh wait... now he's not that big for your tank now... well neither are some of these other fish your trying to make laws about when they're in other peoples tanks.

But right now all I hear is you complaining about a problem that your currently contributing to. Your enormous posts simplified are you battling between your selfishness and your guilt. Find your line quickly or pretty soon vendors wont be selling you the fish you want b/c ur bashing them afterward... even though you'd do it all over.

Good thing I'm not a lfs owner cause I'd reserve the right to refuse you business, but $20 says you'll be back to a lfs before the months end.

[superduperwesman]

We all learn from our mistakes and grow from them.

I'm confused what you learned that it's wrong? For lfs to bring in big fish?... you bought one so there is obviously a market of which you are a part?

And it's too late this time but you'll know for next time? But in the mean time everyday you will look into a tank at something that you're against. I just don't understand how you learned this valuable lesson and yet you continue to be a part of it everyday until the fish dies. And if that is going to be a short span you should give him to someone with a bigger tank or put him out of his misery b/c like you say below "I will not contribute to the unethical treatment of animals if possible"

And if he lives a long time why not get another one?? Oh right... quality of life. You would never want another one to have the bad life you're about to give this one???



I didn't pick my puffer due to his size, but his health and movement....
...My puffer is not special due to his size, he is special because he is an awesome fish.

I was going to go with a smaller puffer, but this guy seemed so special, not only due to his size.

Maybe not solely on size but in part.


I love a good argument so keep it coming.

This is not a good argument because good arguments are founded on something solid. Your argument is dynamic and changes and in doing so it's irrational, and illogical.

Maybe I will get a reef done on my back some day, thanks for an awesome idea. I appreciate it. It would be spectacular to say the least.:mrgreen:

Yeah sounds really nice :neutral:

We live in a throw away society and always just "get another one". Perhaps if we think about why things happen and don't just get something to replace another we would be in a much better place with this world.

Strange that you say this b/c from what I can tell you spent more time crying over Ed and giving a sob story than actually trying to get some insight as to why your 55 crashed... so get that one figured out yet?


Yes I am selfish for being in this hobby, yes I want a reef in this house. However I will not contribute to the unethical treatment of animals if possible. I am not perfect by all means but I want to always better myself by lessons I have learned.

I guess you need to define ethical?? Is it ethical to give animals a lower quality of life for your own personal enjoyment?? I'm pretty sure a tank isn't the best environment for a lot of fish that we keep, so how is it ethical to sacrifice their quality of life for your enjoyment? It's not ethical it's selfish but I'm ok with that because my quality of life is more important to me then there's but again you can't play both sides. "Agreed I'm selfish... but I won't mistreat animals" Technically you are... oh right... "I wontif possible." Unless you'd like to redefine mistreatment?

Of course I will be back to a LFS, just not that one.

Sure you wont... ps your husband going for you is basically the same. No I don't wanna go out for pizza I'm feeling fat, but can you bring me back some


I unknowingly bought a fish that was larger because he was caught as an older fish. I did not even consider it until I saw him hunting like a wild animal hunts. My bad, not the puffer's. Whats done is done... It happened for a reason, and I learned a big lesson for it. I won't bring him back to the store now since I picked him and will deal with it. Just because I am a retard does not mean the fish should suffer any more stress by being brought back to the store. He is not a piece of clothing, he is a living creature. You can just bet that I won't do it again. Any large mature fish will be a captive raised fish that outgrew his owner's tank. You can bet on it. My next puffer is exactly that, so I learned and did something with my new knowledge on my mistake.

I make ignorant and dumb purchases as well, because I liked something and wanted it now, but I don't come home and say how there should be laws to stop me from being stupid

Oh ok... you're right you we're ignorant so it's ok... np. To bad we live in "such a throw out society" but lets let people use ignorance as an excuse. But then your mad because there is a market for the exact kind of ignorance you displayed.

But now your eyes are opened and you'll never do it again and you want to change the terrible things in the hobby... NO BIG FISH! NO BIG FISH! oh him he's a puffer... cool hey! He's miserable but I decided to keep him anyway. And if he's happy then why you hating on the lfs?? And saying there should be laws against big fish?



I do think you fail to understand my point and that is alright by me. It is sometimes hard to convey a message when expression cannot be seen and written word is only there to speak on one's behalf.

I think I do understand... that it's irrational


I am a decent person that is not staring down at anybody, I just don't know better in many aspects of this hobby. As a consumer I have the option to shop where I want to shop. If one place does not work for me, I will go to another.

You can shop where ever you want... I just hope you don't find a reason to bash all the lfs and wonder how you'll stay in the hobby when you blame them for your bad choices and vow never to go back after one bad experience

At the end of the day it is me whom has to live with myself. I do take the deaths of my fish seriously because it is my responsibility to keep the safe and healthy. When they die of old age it is one thing, but when they die due to the lack of my knowledge it is my fault.

Do you cry when you eat salmon?? Or is it ok for taste enjoyment and just not visual enjoyment? You're shortening the life of every fish you own and your ok with that? So you don't take the deaths that seriously... and I'm only making this point b/c again it seems like you try to play both sides of the fence and show how you care sooo much about your fish, but not enough to not support the hobby.

I know we can care about the fish we have but at the end of the day if we over emphasis how much we care and how serious the fishes deaths are than we shouldn't have them. At the end of the day we don't take a fishes death that seriously b/c we'll still sacrifice it for food, or for pleasure.

Please don't tell me that the food part is a need.

I knew I would open up a can of worms when I started these two different topics, but debating and education in the debate is the best knowledge anyone can glean in life. At least I know I should not feel so badly about certain issues and if I did not bring these topics forward I would be beating myself over it. At least I can relax and enjoy my hobby but still have lines drawn for my own personal ethics on what I think is right. Does not mean everyone needs to do what I do, but at least I feel I made a difference in my world.


I guess I'm just trying to help you draw those lines because right now yours looks like this:

http://missjaneleo.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/scribble.jpg

[my2rotties]

Now you have brought up so many topics the are not really relevant to what I was posting, but that is alright. I see you love a good argument, but I do not have the time to play with you any longer. I am sure you and I could do this for all eternity. As much as I would love to finish this debate it is getting me bored and tired now.

I could go on and on, but just don't have the ambition to do so anymore. It was fun and I am sure we will do it again in the future. I wish I knew how to make a cute little picture too, but sadly, I don't have the skills.

You way of thinking will seal the fate of this hobby some day when we are not allowed to buy any captive fish at all, since there will none to buy. I would not have bought my big puffer if he was not available for me to buy. You missed my points entirely, but I can't blame you for that.:wink:

Have a b=nice day.

[sphelps]

Now you have brought up so many topics the are not really relevant to what I was posting, but that is alright. I see you love a good argument, but I do not have the time to play with you any longer. I am sure you and I could do this for all eternity. As much as I would love to finish this debate it is getting me bored and tired now.
I'm a little lost to what your argument was, could you maybe help me out cause I'm a little confused.
One minute you're saying one thing the next something completely different and contradicting.

So basically are you happy with your purchase? Did you think it was the right thing to do?

Are you still mad at the LFS? If so why?

Do you believe bringing in larger fish is wrong? How so?

Where do you draw your ethical line? Seriously I'm really curious, everyone has a different opinion but I'm having difficulty reading yours.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

For entertainment my friend, the same reason I setup and anyone else sets up a saltwater tank, not because its the humane thing to do. And like I said it wasn't the diet.

I never told anyone to feed their puffer anything, I simply made the point that puffers will most certainly eat other fish which seems to be related to the topic. So I'm not sure why you would say what I said was wrong?

You inadvertently did give that advice. At least someone (I know I took it that way) could mistake your comment for being advice on feeding a puffer. I just think you could have been more clear and actually have included some details...like it was a treat maybe.

All I did was make sure people understood how horrible of a diet that would be. The you cleared it up but started an argument instead of leaving it at that. Sure taking fish form the ocean is worse than feeding them a bad diet by why would you even go there...you knew that was not my point. I have no problem with fish coming from the ocean or I would not be in this hobby.

I think you do an amazing job with your tanks and people respect your opinions. That makes it even more important that you are clear. I did get a PM right after that BTW asking how to feed goldfish to puffers and another asking if it was ok to do.

I agree to a point with this posters views on keeping large fish but I have to agree, I couldn't do it myself if I felt quite so strongly about it.

My opinion is that there are species that should not ever be in LFS unless someone orders them specially. I also think every other species should be brought in as small as possible and safe. There is generally an ideal size for most species. For example I would say porcs should only be brought in 5" and under. Or...Naso Tangs, again under 5" or so. There is a huge difference between a fish that has be "raised" in a tank and one that has grown in the ocean. The younger the fish, the better they adapt generally.

I do not blame LFS for this alone by any means. I said earlier about that large tang that if it sits there and no one buys it, I bet the owner will not bring them in again. I think I said it would be ashame for it to die but it would also save many others...in theory anyways. It all stems form the collectors and lack of collection laws.

My father lives in Singapore and dives almost weekly throughout South Asia. I go a few times a year to join him and the **** you see go on down there would probably make most of you feel terrible about how you fish get here. The large fish are the worst to see.

Anyways, I do kind of agree that the original poster has a lot to sort out about how they feel about captive fish. This is not the hobby for you if you don't feel most fish are doing well in aquariums. Its a selfish hobby and you have to be ok with that. But I also think some people are being a little harsh with there crazy drawings and all out attack. Im not saying you are though, sphelps.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

I'm confused what you learned that it's wrong? For lfs to bring in big fish?... you bought one so there is obviously a market of which you are a part?

And it's too late this time but you'll know for next time? But in the mean time everyday you will look into a tank at something that you're against. I just don't understand how you learned this valuable lesson and yet you continue to be a part of it everyday until the fish dies. And if that is going to be a short span you should give him to someone with a bigger tank or put him out of his misery b/c like you say below "I will not contribute to the unethical treatment of animals if possible"

And if he lives a long time why not get another one?? Oh right... quality of life. You would never want another one to have the bad life you're about to give this one???






Maybe not solely on size but in part.




This is not a good argument because good arguments are founded on something solid. Your argument is dynamic and changes and in doing so it's irrational, and illogical.



Yeah sounds really nice :neutral:



Strange that you say this b/c from what I can tell you spent more time crying over Ed and giving a sob story than actually trying to get some insight as to why your 55 crashed... so get that one figured out yet?




I guess you need to define ethical?? Is it ethical to give animals a lower quality of life for your own personal enjoyment?? I'm pretty sure a tank isn't the best environment for a lot of fish that we keep, so how is it ethical to sacrifice their quality of life for your enjoyment? It's not ethical it's selfish but I'm ok with that because my quality of life is more important to me then there's but again you can't play both sides. "Agreed I'm selfish... but I won't mistreat animals" Technically you are... oh right... "I wontif possible." Unless you'd like to redefine mistreatment?



Sure you wont... ps your husband going for you is basically the same. No I don't wanna go out for pizza I'm feeling fat, but can you bring me back some




I make ignorant and dumb purchases as well, because I liked something and wanted it now, but I don't come home and say how there should be laws to stop me from being stupid

Oh ok... you're right you we're ignorant so it's ok... np. To bad we live in "such a throw out society" but lets let people use ignorance as an excuse. But then your mad because there is a market for the exact kind of ignorance you displayed.

But now your eyes are opened and you'll never do it again and you want to change the terrible things in the hobby... NO BIG FISH! NO BIG FISH! oh him he's a puffer... cool hey! He's miserable but I decided to keep him anyway. And if he's happy then why you hating on the lfs?? And saying there should be laws against big fish?




I think I do understand... that it's irrational




You can shop where ever you want... I just hope you don't find a reason to bash all the lfs and wonder how you'll stay in the hobby when you blame them for your bad choices and vow never to go back after one bad experience



Do you cry when you eat salmon?? Or is it ok for taste enjoyment and just not visual enjoyment? You're shortening the life of every fish you own and your ok with that? So you don't take the deaths that seriously... and I'm only making this point b/c again it seems like you try to play both sides of the fence and show how you care sooo much about your fish, but not enough to not support the hobby.

I know we can care about the fish we have but at the end of the day if we over emphasis how much we care and how serious the fishes deaths are than we shouldn't have them. At the end of the day we don't take a fishes death that seriously b/c we'll still sacrifice it for food, or for pleasure.

Please don't tell me that the food part is a need.




I guess I'm just trying to help you draw those lines because right now yours looks like this:

http://missjaneleo.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/scribble.jpg

Wow...you seem to have taken this very personal. You own a fish shop by any chance?

[sphelps]

GSP, I agree with what you're saying but it's up to everyone else to properly interpret any information given online. I can't be held responsible for any wrong interpretation regardless of my experience.

I agree that there should be limits on fish sizes brought in but unfortunately it's not that simple. LFS's know what fish to bring in and for the most part I believe they do there best to bring in what's reasonable. The problem is there are no standards for the actual size of a "small", "med" or "large" fish and it varies from supplier to supplier and you don't always have control to what exactly they ship to you. In a perfect world this would be different but as we all know this world isn't perfect but I for one am willing to except that.

I don't think Wes was personally attacking anyone, I think he's a good hobbyist and simply sticking up for the hobby in general and the people that make it all possible for us, our LFSs.

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

GSP, I agree with what you're saying but it's up to everyone else to properly interpret any information given online. I can't be held responsible for any wrong interpretation regardless of my experience.

I agree that there should be limits on fish sizes brought in but unfortunately it's not that simple. LFS's know what fish to bring in and for the most part I believe they do there best to bring in what's reasonable. The problem is there are no standards for the actual size of a "small", "med" or "large" fish and it varies from supplier to supplier and you don't always have control to what exactly they ship to you. In a perfect world this would be different but as we all know this world isn't perfect but I for one am willing to except that.

I don't think Wes was personally attacking anyone, I think he's a good hobbyist and simply sticking up for the hobby in general and the people that make it all possible for us, our LFSs.

I still think if you post on an open forum you do have to be careful and be very specific :wink: I understand people have to make well informed decisions but in many cases when someone experienced from this board or any other says something, people do take it as well informed advice. Really not a big deal, I was just trying to make sure people don't start feeding freshwater fish to puffers.

As I said, I do not blame LFS at all. I agree its people who buy the fish that are more to blame and also collection laws. IMO there should be laws not to limit actual species (unless endangered or threatened) but to limit what size can be collected. Problem is, too many people want to buy large fish instead of having the patients to grow them.

I don't know...seems like very personal attacks from Wes. Or at least that he was taking things very personal. I just think he really could have gone about that whole last post in a much better way. Telling people they have to "draw a line" and decide how they feel about their dilemmas is ignorant at best. The fish for food analogy made me laugh...some people make a distinction between food and pets.

[my2rotties]

I did admit I contradicted myself on many matters. When you have mixed feelings about things, that does happen.

I am more mad at myself then the store since I depended on what he said in deciding to bring the fish home. But in his defense he has a business to run, and although I might think it is his responsibility to answers questions clearly, perhaps my expectations are too high. My choice to not go there anymore is because I feel I cannot trust his word or he does not have enough knowledge to help me out. Yes I can research, which I did do. If I don't trust a person I am dealing with, why would I do business with them again?

I am happy with the fish. He is strong and healthy, great colours, that is why I picked him. I do not blame him for doing what comes naturally he is a wild fish. I don't know how old he really is, I was told about a year or year and a half. I was told by a very experienced keeper of tangs that the large fish in the store whom is supposed to be the same age as my puffer, must be at least five years old. I have no knowledge of fish to know how you can even tell how old a wild fish really is. I go by the word of the LFS, as this is their business to know.

I am on the fence about things. However young fish do adapt much more easily. Any animal or human can adapt more easily to anything when they are young. I do not feel mature fish should be pulled from a reef. They survived for several years in nature and are entitled to breeding and carrying the circle of life. My big issues with capturing wild fish is the use of cyanide and gas to stun them and capture them. I don't think it is fair to do that and kill many other creatures in the process of capturing fish for the hobbyist. When I look at the big picture when people net them it can be compared to being hunted. It happens everyday to eat or be eaten. However, when they are poisoned and stunned that is crossing the line. When I think of that, then even the larger fish whom are netted would have been eaten by a predator and would be gone any ways. SO there I am contradicting myself again. I see it, and have seen it many times. I just feel it is wrong, and now I am giving myself reasons to justify it. Perhaps when I justify it I can accept what reef keepers are doing.

I guess I change my feelings due to being asked about them and I learn more about the issues I brought up in the first place. Because I am debating with you guys, it makes me open my mind on how things really are... does that makes sense?

So where do I draw the line?

I think it is awful to catch fish with chemicals. Make it a more level playing field and catch them by net. I wish people had some mercy and would leave the big fish in the ocean to reproduce and provide us with young fish that can adapt to captivity. They are more valuable in the oceans then they are in a display tank.

When people go into an LFS and ask questions, the seller should be honest, and/or knowledgeable about what we are purchasing. Some buyers don't always know all the questions to ask, but a seller should try to inform a buyer as much as possible prior to the purchase. Sellers should ask the buyer questions about their set ups to see if the buyer can provide a proper home. I know some people want what they want and are get it no matter what. However people that have an interest in the well being of their fish and tank mates should be regarded.

I think I do read into things too much because I have owned and rescued various animals all my life. I fostered exotic birds that were unwanted because they are too much work. The cockatoo self mutilated herself because nobody paid attention to her. When they hit breeding ago, they become unmanageable due to their desire for a mate and to breed. People think birds can be kept in a cage with little or no care and buy them. I rescued a rehomed a couple of rabbits since people think they can live in a filthy cage with no human contact. I rescued some goldfish from my gym since they were living in a cess pool and could not breath anymore. I rescued Rottweilers and a Pit Bull from horrible fates and they spent the rest of their lives with me.

Perhaps fish are not near to being the aforementioned animals, but because I saw what they went through, it makes me think really hard about ANY creature under my care. I understand I am reading into this all too much, but I have seen a lot of suffering from puppy mills, pet stores and impulse buying of pets people are not equipped to care for. They are just fish, right?

I will stop mentioning why I look into things and think way too much about the fish industry. I know I am comparing things that are not the same but cannot help it anyways. So yes, I am all over the place, but am glad I am addressing my questions and concerns, and being called out for why I think the way that I do.

YES I love the hobby, YES I love buying new livestock for my tank. I am no different then all of you. I don't know where the lines are drawn in this hobby so this is why I asked in the first place. Will I keep my fish? Of course I will. I learned a lot from him, and from the members of this forum.

I'm a little lost to what your argument was, could you maybe help me out cause I'm a little confused.
One minute you're saying one thing the next something completely different and contradicting.

So basically are you happy with your purchase? Did you think it was the right thing to do?

Are you still mad at the LFS? If so why?

Do you believe bringing in larger fish is wrong? How so?

Where do you draw your ethical line? Seriously I'm really curious, everyone has a different opinion but I'm having difficulty reading yours.

[stingray paradise]

with time you will be able to train them on squid shrimp mussels (seafood medley) is a great combination and ive even got mine eating pellets. but he's a monsterous lazy old fart now. i always enjoyed feeding mussels and crab legs helps keep the teeth short and the crunching sound is great

[my2rotties]

You are making me hungry... the fish gets mussels and crab legs while I go hungry. He has been eating garlic prawns instead of clownfish today, and I am getting jealous. They are MY prawns, but he needs them more then I do. I have Kraft dinner in the pantry. I cannot wait to get some crab legs it will be fun to listen to the crunching. I can bet that is messy, I actually can't imagine until I see it myself.

with time you will be able to train them on squid shrimp mussels (seafood medley) is a great combination and ive even got mine eating pellets. but he's a monsterous lazy old fart now. i always enjoyed feeding mussels and crab legs helps keep the teeth short and the crunching sound is great

[midgetwaiter]

I am happy with the fish. He is strong and healthy, great colours, that is why I picked him. I do not blame him for doing what comes naturally he is a wild fish. I don't know how old he really is, I was told about a year or year and a half

Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression you feel your puffer killing the clownfish was a learned behavior because it was captured at a larger size. You also think that this would have been less likely to happen if you had introduced a juvenile puffer.

Based on my experience with these fish I would say that is a faulty line of reasoning. They are curious and unpredictable regardless of age and this could have happened at any time. I've noticed little difference in behavior between juvi and older imports.

[superduperwesman]

Now you have brought up so many topics the are not really relevant to what I was posting, but that is alright.

Yeah you're right almost everything was completely irrelevant...???

I see you love a good argument, but I do not
have the time to play with you any longer. I am sure you and I could do this for all eternity. As much as I would love to finish this debate it is getting me bored and tired now.

I could go on and on, but just don't have the ambition to do so anymore. It was fun and I am sure we will do it again in the future.

Again the story changes:
I love a good arguement so keep it coming. but that's cool I understand why your tired... it's hard to argue when you're not being rational or logical. Better luck next time.

But in the mean time I'm glad your done "playing" with your little toy... sounds like a throw away kinda attitude to me.... "if only we could fix that in the world"?


I wish I knew how to make a cute little picture too, but sadly, I don't have the skills.

Belittling my skills with sarcasm only works if they're actually my skills...I never made the picture

You way of thinking will seal the fate of this hobby some day when we are not allowed to buy any captive fish at all, since there will none to buy.

Yeah your right my humble 10 gallon is basically emptying the ocean as we speak.

And who's going to stop me from buying these "captive fish" if there is none?? Again your statements are completely irrational.

I would not have bought my big puffer if he was not available for me to buy. You missed my points entirely, but I can't blame you for that.:wink:

Passing the buck... it's not your fault it's whoever provided the fish and I wouldn't have killed the guy if I didn't have a gun available to me.

You can blame me or your lfs for whatever you want. You have been, so why stop now.... Doesn't mean any of the blame is founded or true but you can blame whom ever you want.

Have a b=nice day.

Always do :D

[superduperwesman]

Wow...you seem to have taken this very personal. You own a fish shop by any chance?

Nope... I just get frustrated when people are irrational and have swing arguments.

The poster and this thread reminds me of a lady on the radio who "can not believe what Alberta has allowed the oil industry do to the environment!" All this she says as she flies over the oil sands in a plane that is fuel powered. The only reason she could even make such a statement, and the only reason she could see what she was seeing is b/c she was seeing it.

I just get really frustrated with people who are totally ridiculous. They talk and complain but in actuality the whole while they are only implicating themselves.

[Doug]

Sheez. This is a board for posting about our hobby, not an ethics board. Lighten up already.

[superduperwesman]

Sheez. This is a board for posting about our hobby, not an ethics board. Lighten up already.

That's kinda my whole point at the end of the day they're just fish that we are supposed to enjoy. You do what you can to give them a good home but we can't pretend that we feel soooo bad and still keep the fish and keep buying more or I think you're in the wrong hobby.... which is the only thing that I said at the beginning besides #17 I thought it was a clown that ate puffers ahah, #29 lfs do take stuff back, #33 trying to keep the peace,

#37:
I still think you're in the wrong hobby based on a lot of your threads and posts

You can't play both sides or I don't know how you can be in the hobby.

I'm just saying she's not being rational and am pointing out contradictions in what she's saying and I think she agrees

I did admit I contradicted myself on many matters. When you have mixed feelings about things, that does happen.

The problem with mixed feelings and contradictions is it makes half of what your saying garbage and steps on some people along the way.

Just pointing that out... it's ok to contradict yourself but if you point that out because you're confused your and ass and attacking people??

No worries... I'll just keep my frustrations to myself and quietly enjoy the positional yoyos