If you could have 220V for your tank, would you?

[Delphinus]

Building my tank room, just wondering if I should string up a 220VAC circuit. The only things I have currently that could run on 220V instead of 120V is the halide ballasts (multi-tap). About the only advantage I could see is that the amperage draw is half since the voltage is double, but what is the real advantage to doing so? It's not like the energy consumption is reduced, I think it's just a loading issue. Plus I imagine that a 220V circuit takes up at least 2 slots in the breaker panel, so I'm sort of wondering if it's even worth it.

In a perfect world, would you want to have 220V available for your tank?

[mark]

120 vs 240volt, at the end of the day a watt is a watt and that's how you pay for electricity.

You would still end up needing 120v, haven't looked but thinking probably a lot easier to find heaters, pumps for reactor etc in 120v.

Can see running a 240v sub-panel then tapping off either side.

[michika]

I am electrically naive, so I am being responsible and not voting. However, QUICK! Someone nap a screen shot! Tony is working on his tank! :mrgreen:

Nice to hear of some progress on your monster tank.

[michika]

Kevin says;

Its only beneficial to a tank if you buy 220v ballasts. That is the only thing in your system that will run on that voltage. Unless you buy european pumps.

[dsaundry]

It would be useful for some of the european equipment...

[Delphinus]

The ballasts I have, at least some of them, are multitap - I could run them on 220, 360 or 480 (or whatever the other voltages are).

But a watt is a watt. I still really don't know if there's a benefit to running one voltage over another.

Moot point anyhow now, looking at Home Depot though my jaw hit the floor when I saw the cost of copper. My plans to string 8 or 10 guage and use 20-amp breakers quickly dissipated. 14 guage and 15A will have to do, and this was already a dismaying cost for 200' of wire. Crazy.

Anyhow, so I more or less decided against running the 220V circuit on the spot then.

PS. Yeah, call the presses, I've been working on the tank project! :p I'll try updating the build thread soon.

[Monti-Man]

The benefit of running higher voltages is that it draws less amps. And less amps = less heat and less heat is better efficency which translates to better over all power consumption.

[untamed]

I considered it in the design phase. While I thought that I could slightly improve my energy consumption (very, very slightly), I found it difficult to obtain 220V pieces of equipment...so I went with 110V.

[REDNECK_REEFER]

If you're gonna run any bulbs that are 400 w or more I would suggest using 240 for your lighting. The coolest thing about the 240 power is that you can buy large scale timers and if you have multiple lighting systems in your fishroom(or living room in my case!) they can all run off of the same timer.
Also you gain the benefit of less heat on your ballsts 'cause they don't have to work as hard to generate the charge.:mrgreen:

[Delphinus]

Hmmmm, would the decreased heat really be noticeable? Ie., do they still get hot, just not "as hot" ? Or is it pretty significantly different?

I'd just hate to find out AFTER going through the effort and expense of stringing the wire for 220 (240? whatever it is) that it's a sort of "here's your nickle per month that you save! <pling!>" type situation.

One follow up question for you electricians, what gauge wire does a person need for 240? 8 gauge? 10 gauge? (Distance from panel to room is roughly 50' {including the distance to ceiling and back}, in case that info is necessary to make the determination..)

[michika]

Kevin says:

1) Is this just for plugs, or are you putting a sub panel in.
1a) If you are putting a sub panel in, what is the current.

[Delphinus]

I want to do whatever the electrical inspector is going to be more likely to sign off on. Given the layout of the room I don't think there's a good spot for the panel to go that isn't in some form of risk for water contact, so I sort of see that as being the more troublesome option. So if I went 220/240 (and I have to say, I'm really, really tempted NOT to, at this point, for reasons of both cost and effort) I think I would just go with some kind of dryer plug or oven plug (I think they're different, but I don't think it matters because you can get the ends at HD/Rona/etc. so as long as the ballasts had the right plug put on for the outlet).

[michika]

Per Kevin:

If you just run some 10/3 over from your panel to your tank room, you can have 120v receptacles, and as many 220v receptacles as you want. He also says the dryer plugs are fine, or you can get 220v receptacles, and 220v cord ends, this will probably be cheaper route (the receptacles).

Kevin says he can drop by and give you a play by play, or do the work for you if you want some extra help.

[brizzo]

The big question is how many amps you want to run;

All 240v receptacles require a 4-wire nmd cable. red (hot), black (hot), white (neutral), bare copper/green (ground).

20 amps (baseboard heaters) = 12/3
30 amps (dryer) = 10/3
40 amps (stove) = 8/3

You also have to ask the question of spending the money for a gfi circuit breaker (65 to 220 dollars depending on amperage and brand of panel).

The question you have to ask is how many watts will all the current equipment draw? Do you have 1 single 15 amp circuit for all your equipment, and your lights?

How many ballasts are you going to run in total ??

[Monti-Man]

As far as savings in dollars, you won't see alot of difference.
To be honest it is not worth the expense unless you have alot of lights.
In the firm i work for we only see a 2 to 5 % difference but to places like suncor or petrocan thats alot, but to the average consumer not worth it.
Find other ways of saving money

[RnR]

the other issue is the timer there arent alot of options. I run a 220v aqua connect riga 2x250mh/4x54wt5 and it was a pain to wire and if you ever move you need to start all over again

[chevyjaxon]

I dont know alot about it but I do know more amps equals less draw which equals less heat and friction on a visit to the codfathers house i seen his set up and he had it wired to a 220v system the pump was virtually silent not so much as a hum he told me that wired to a 110v that pump was screaming so he wired it in to 220 WOW that has got to be the quietest tank ive ever heard:mrgreen my vote goes to 220v because noise is always an issue

[Delphinus]

I actually pretty much decided against 220V just looking at the cost of copper. It's cheaper to run say 5 runs using the standard household gauge (I forget what it is -14/3?) than one run of 10/3 or 12/3. I was really shocked actually at the cost of wiring and how fast it goes up from one gauge to the next. For the length of what I'd need it was the difference of several hundred dollars to have a 220V circuit or not, regardless of how many 110V's I'd put in. Crazy.

[mike31154]

Probably a good idea. The GFI issue (how/where to get 220V GFI parts) would be the deciding factor were I ever to consider running a 220 circuit for my tank. Works well for dryers, stoves & air conditioners, but for our hobby I think it's overkill unless you've got a monster set up that needs more than a couple of kilowatts. One other thing about 220, if you ever get zapped it'll send you twice as far across the room as 110, he he. In fact it's been said that 110 is more dangerous since you may end up not being able to let go whereas 220 will definitely make you let go...

[banditpowdercoat]

For my next tank, Im running split 120/240. So I'll have 2 circuits of 120, and a 240 source if I want to get some European stuff :D Dont cost no more, and splits the load up.

[banditpowdercoat]

The benefit of running higher voltages is that it draws less amps. And less amps = less heat and less heat is better efficency which translates to better over all power consumption.

No, not Less heat. Less copper size required. Heat is Watts. Volts = Amps. Double the voltage, you halve the amps. BUT, the Watts/HEAT is still the same. Now, if you were talking line Loss, then yes, higher voltage, less heat created due to less line loss. But that only comes into play on longer cable runs not typically found in the residential areas

[Delphinus]

How different is 220 from 240? As soon as we get talking about 3 phase and whatnot I kind of zone out because it's over my head. How do you run a 240 circuit?

[banditpowdercoat]

How different is 220 from 240? As soon as we get talking about 3 phase and whatnot I kind of zone out because it's over my head. How do you run a 240 circuit?

It's not different. Voltage varies across the country. 110-120v is normal, and 220-240v is normal ranges. Come call it 110/220 others, like me, call it 120/240. Just habbit. Now, taking as 3 phase power into a panel actually makes 110v and 208v It's hard to explain, but has to do with phase vectors and a bunch of trigonometry.

Just remember, Lower the voltage, the more current is needed for the same Power/Watts.

And FYI, a HP for an electric motor, is equivalent to 746Watts, regardless of voltage. Watts=HP.

So, for a 1HP motor, running at 240v =3.1 amps
same motor running 120V =6.2 amps

It's the same Watts(746) But the current draw on the wires is less.

now, if it was a 10HP, it would be 31amps or 62. THAT'S a large cable size difference.

[mike31154]

So are GFCI receptacles or circuit breakers for 220 easy enough to source? Do they even exist? I'm fairly certain you can't install a conventional GFCI device into a 3 wire circuit, black/red/white/green (green earth wire is not counted). With two hot wires, black and red feeding current through the single white neutral, there's going to be an imbalance, tripping the GFCI. So the next question would be, how comfortable are you hooking up devices near/in the water without GFCI protection?

[banditpowdercoat]

So are GFCI receptacles or circuit breakers for 220 easy enough to source? Do they even exist? I'm fairly certain you can't install a conventional GFCI device into a 3 wire circuit, black/red/white/green (green earth wire is not counted). With two hot wires, black and red feeding current through the single white neutral, there's going to be an imbalance, tripping the GFCI. So the next question would be, how comfortable are you hooking up devices near/in the water without GFCI protection?


No, I would not use a 220 GFCI. Acctually, personally, I do not have ANY GFCI's on my tanks at all. I'm an electrician. BUT, if you want some, GFCI Plugs are the way to go. Why? Well, when something grounds out, Which piece is it? And if your using a GFCI breaker to protect the whole tank and equip guess what? The whole tanks power goes out. Now, most of you put boxes with multiple plugs under the cabinet. Spend the extra $(Its piddly compared to what we got into our tanks really) and do separate GFCI plugs. Then you would have the 220 for any lighting/funky Euro pumps, but also, GFI plugs for the immersed equip.

Thats how I would do it.

[Aqua-Digital]

We are putting a 220V spur across the basement when it is finished this spring to where the fish tank will be.

Coming from the UK I am used to 220V and have (personally) found not having 220V quite restricitve in regards to what is available especially in lighting and taking care not to go over the rated ampage on 110V ring mains.

The lighting I will be using is 220V anyway so for me its a no brainer.

My thoughts are if you have the ability to run it and especially if planning a new tank build then for sure consider it.

[StirCrazy]

Moot point anyhow now, looking at Home Depot though my jaw hit the floor when I saw the cost of copper. My plans to string 8 or 10 guage and use 20-amp breakers quickly dissipated. 14 guage and 15A will have to do, and this was already a dismaying cost for 200' of wire. Crazy.

Anyhow, so I more or less decided against running the 220V circuit on the spot then.

PS. Yeah, call the presses, I've been working on the tank project! :p I'll try updating the build thread soon.

ah, but remember you can do what I did, use one 10 gage wire to feed the sub panel, which is good for 30 amps of 110 or 220. so I used 220. then from the sub pannel I split it to short runs of 110 for a total of 60 amps of 110 so I had four 15 amp breakers for my tank.

When I set up a big tank in Kamloops I will probably bring more then also use 220 for ballast and such. power is the same but less heat is developed for the same power as the current is lower. this is why table saws and air compresors that can run both work much better on 220. also start up draw is lower so less effect on the rest of the power in the house.

Steve

[StirCrazy]

For my next tank, Im running split 120/240. So I'll have 2 circuits of 120, and a 240 source if I want to get some European stuff :D Dont cost no more, and splits the load up.

how are you going to compensate for the change in cycles?

yes I agree, use individual plug GFI on each outlet so you only lose the circut that has the problem, if you have two of anything (pumps, lights, heaters ect) make sure they are on different circuts, this way if you lose one of your pumps the other will keep going.

Steve

[banditpowdercoat]

how are you going to compensate for the change in cycles?

yes I agree, use individual plug GFI on each outlet so you only lose the circut that has the problem, if you have two of anything (pumps, lights, heaters ect) make sure they are on different circuts, this way if you lose one of your pumps the other will keep going.

Steve

What change in cycles??? 120/240 IS 110/220 It's the same. I have just allways called it 120/240 throughout my electrical carrier. But, if you were to measure voltage at alot of different peoples houses, you would find that it ranges between 110/220 and 120/240. There is no one SET voltage. It fluctuates

Think of the household power as 2 1.2v AA batteries put together end to end. Now take a wire from each end, the + and the - of the other one., and also one from between the middle of the two batteries.
Now, from one ouside wire to the center, it's 1.2v, across 1 of the batteries. Same for the other wire to the middle. Now from outside to outside wire, thats 2.4V. Both batteries added together. Thats like how your house 120/240(110/220) power system is. The Neutral wire is the center wire between the batteries. Between 1 wire and neutral =110, the other wire and neutral, 110 as well, but a different power supply basically. Between both wires, the power supplies add together and theres your 220.

[mike31154]

What change in cycles??? 120/240 IS 110/220 It's the same. I have just allways called it 120/240 throughout my electrical carrier. But, if you were to measure voltage at alot of different peoples houses, you would find that it ranges between 110/220 and 120/240. There is no one SET voltage. It fluctuates

He may be referring to the frequency, not voltage. Frequency in most countries using 220V such as Europe is 50 Hz vs. the 60 Hz we use for 110V in North America. Either way, it's not a big issue with most of the equipment we use for our tanks. There is some frequency sensitive equipment out there, mostly the more sensitive electronic components. Items such as pumps will actually run a little faster with 60 Hz as opposed to 50 Hz, but they'll run... They may even run a little cooler since at 60 Hz the sine wave is 'faster' and the dwell time at peak voltage is less. Downside is you may lose a little torque. Some electronic ballasts may not deal well with the change in frequency depending on circuitry design. I'd venture to say even some MH magnetic ballasts designed for 50 Hz may not drive your bulbs optimally since they work on the transformer/capacitor principle, which is frequency sensitive. The chararcteristics of such a circuit changes with frequency.

[StirCrazy]

What change in cycles??? 120/240 IS 110/220 It's the same. .


um... in north america we use 60 cycle, in Europe they use 50 cycle.

Steve

[Aqua-Digital]

The rate of Hz for Euro products are 50-60hz.

Therefore it is no issue

[bullit67]

The other place that 220 comess into play is some pumps can be run on 220 big external pumps such as the reeflo line can be set up to run on 220.

[brizzo]

The price of copper has come down significantly in the last couple months :biggrin:

[mike31154]

The rate of Hz for Euro products are 50-60hz.

Therefore it is no issue

That's a pretty broad statement and although it may be true for some components, I wouldn't count on it. Just had a quick look at one of my AquaClear powerheads and the manufacturers label states AC 120V 60Hz, not 50-60Hz. Yes things designed for 50Hz may function at 60Hz, but not optimally and in some cases not at all. If you were to hook up a motor driven timer designed for 50 Hz to a 60 Hz supply, it would run fast. Most AC motors will run at a different speed depending on the frequency of the supplied voltage. Yes, there are automatic voltage sensing devices in most components today that allow you to plug into any supply from 110 to over 300 volts, but I have yet to see a component that automatically senses and changes frequency. Many use a transformer/power supply to convert the AC voltage to DC and yes, for those frequency is a non issue. By all means use the 220V, just trying to caution folks that they should confirm any "Euro product" they wish to run on 220V states on the label that it is indeed compatible with 60Hz.

[Aqua-Digital]

I agree if it does not give the 50-60Hz range then contact the manuacturer before hand.

But majority of products do have this range and are laballed as such.

This is one thing I miss about being an English native and living in Canada and that is 220V standardisation.

[Aqua-Digital]

Here are some key facts direct from the web

Wilipedia

Frequency (Hz) Frequency is generally not a problem - most travel items will work OK on either 50 or 60 Hz. If all the electrical appliance does is produce heat and/or light, then the frequency is unlikely to matter.

Frequency is most likely to affect clocks and devices with motors. They may run faster or slower than they should and may be damaged in the long run as a result. Again, though, some motorised devices may function correctly on either 50 or 60 Hz - especially if they also operate on batteries. Just look on the label or plug.

However, you still may need to be careful if you have a sensitive and/or expensive device that converts AC (power from the wall) into DC (battery-like current) - especially if you also need to convert the voltage. A device will convert AC to DC to either : 1) save battery power by allowing you to plug into the mains or 2) to charge a battery in the device. The design of power supplies where AC is converted into DC does take frequency into account. Even though 60 Hz converts a little more easily to DC than 50 Hz does, there's enough tolerance in most small appliances and electronic gadgets that you can ignore frequency. However, if you also need to change the voltage (because the voltage of your device is different from the mains power voltage), you cannot use a switching-type converter. You must use the heavier iron-core transformer. If in doubt, consult a reputable electrical goods dealer.

If your device won't operate with a different frequency (powerful motors and all clocks), there is really nothing you can do to change it. Unlike voltage, frequency cannot easily be converted. Foreign embassies may have to use huge generators to provide current compatible with equipment from home.

Japan is a special case. East Japan (eg Tokyo) uses 50 Hz and west Japan (eg Osaka) uses 60 Hz. Equipment made for the Japanese market may have a switch to select 50 Hz or 60 Hz.

Here is another

The higher voltage of 250 VAC means there will be less current for a given load, and therefore less power loss along a given length of wire having a given diameter. The length and diameter of the copper wire determine its resistance. The power loss is equal to the current squared, multiplied by the resistance. So, less current means less power loss.

The lower voltage of the USA means less efficiency, but greater safety. It is less likely to receive a fatal electrocution from the lower voltage under the same conditions.

The 50 Hz vs the 60 Hz makes little difference. The machinery making the 50 Hz rotates a little slower and may need slightly less maintenance. Products based on 60 Hz could weigh slightly less due to smaller transformer cores and motor armatures needed, but that doesn't really happen because most products are designed to run on either frequency.

[e46er]

just a thought dont buy wiring from HD rona anywhere like that go to an electrical supplier most will do counter sales and its substantly cheeper.
when i needed 120' of tek cable for a heat pump it was like 5.85 /ft at supplier slight discount but like 26 bux at Rona i cant remeber the gauge tho it was 8 or 10 Gauge.

[StirCrazy]

The rate of Hz for Euro products are 50-60hz.

Therefore it is no issue

not realy, there is stuff that is built for either market hence 50/60 but I do have a couple items I picked up in europe that is only 50Hz and will work on 60 but it will spin faster and also make more heat and die faster on 60Hz hence it is labled 50Hz not 50/60Hz. and for this reason I had to buy a 60 to 50 Hz converter.

So basicly if you buy something that states 50/60 on the lable then yes you can use it on either market but if it only has 60Hz or 50Hz then it will not work properly on the other.

Steve