Heartbreak hotel

[Delphinus]

My latest casualty.... and maybe a new record. Not even two weeks in my system and it's kicking off ... Wednesday will be 2 weeks and the rate this guy is dissolving I'll be surprised if there's anything left by then.

With flash, doesn't look too bad at first. But this should be a hairy millepora, the lack of polyp extension is pretty evident.
http://members.shaw.ca/hobiesailor/aquaria/sps/20071209/acro_heartache1.jpg

Without flash, same angle as above, the damage is more evident:
http://members.shaw.ca/hobiesailor/aquaria/sps/20071209/acro_heartache2.jpg

Another view, from underneath looking up, even more evident how badly it's sloughing off tissue:
http://members.shaw.ca/hobiesailor/aquaria/sps/20071209/acro_heartache3.jpg

The worst part is that there's an acro crab in there which I suspect will be a goner when the coral goes.

I'm not sure what's up with this phenomenon. I've invested heavily, both heavily and emotionally, into testing equipment to try to nail down a potential cause. Ultimately, I moved into my house in 2004 and I've never been able to keep an SPS alive ever since. It's the most demoralizing thing. People who complain about brown SPS have no idea how jealous I am of them ... I'd take brown over dead.

Parameters:
Ca = 400
Alk = 3.4 meq/l (~9.5 dKH)
NO3 = 5ppm
PO4 = <0.04

Not really the smoking gun one would hope for.

Really not sure what the next step is. I wish I knew what I was doing wrong...

[Delphinus]

Just to show that there was once a day where I thought I knew what I was doing when it came to SPS, here's a FTS of my 75g taken in January 2004 shortly before I moved.

http://members.shaw.ca/hobiesailor/aquaria/tankshots/75g.jpg

Sigh, the good old days. :(

[danny zubot]

What kills SPS but leaves all other corals alone?

I guess if there were any significant levels of heavy metal the other corals would be dead right now as well. Or would they? What if you had a toxin in there that was at a low enough level that it doesn't really affect your softies, but still high enough to affect the more sensitive SPS? I don't really have anything to back this up with, it's just a theory, but if anyone else wants to chime in we might get this figured out.

[untamed]

I wish I could help... I'm sure you've gone over this in your own mind hundreds of times.

You're right, I don't see anything deadly in those water parameters. Not listed are: SpG, Temperature...but I'm sure you have those in control.

That leaves me with Lighting, Flow, some sort of element deficiency, or some sort of toxic contaminant/bacterial/viral agent.

None of this has been helpful to you at all...sorry.

[Delphinus]

I'm sort of wondering if it could be bacterial. Sort of like the brown jelly that usually attacks Euphyllia? But I have no idea, just a grasp on my part.

FWIW, I run my SG at 1.025 and temperature I try to keep at 26C (about 78-79F I think? If I have my conversions straight).

It is pretty uniformly SPS across the board. Softies, LPS (well, actually, I don't have many LPS. But I do have a bubble coral, and two Blastomussa's), anemones, and clams don't seem to be an issue.

This is now spanning two different systems. But one thing the two systems have in common are some rather large anemones. Two gigantea carpets in one tank, and one ridiculous ritteri in the other. It feels a bit of a desperate grasp though, to me, as there are tanks out there with these species with SPS that seem to do well.

[Skimmin]

I'm no expert on sps but... My tank is mainly dominated by softies but I do have a few lps and sps that seem to be doing quite well. Do you run carbon or phosphate remover of any kind? I believe carbon and even phosphate removers can help remove organic toxins. Ialways try to have atleast some carbonin my tank.(thats actually the only mechanical filteration I use) I know that softies can excrete a fair bit of toxins which can be potentially harmful to sps. Sorry I can't offer anything else.

[danny zubot]

How would you be able to determine if you had such an invader in your tank? I wonder if you could send a water and sand/rock sample to a lab for analysis? You know, someone who knows what to look for.

[Salmon King]

I have ventured into a few sps .Some do good/some turn brown some die.Asked Jaws about this and said luck of the draw so I dont think it is anything you do.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

A few potential causes (I fought off sleep and read through several gargantuan threads on RC!):

1) High (organic) phosphates?
2) New house, new area, new water source/water treatment plant? Some use Chloramine?
3) Salt mix. Did you switch salt mixes? I just read that some salt brands are using many times the natural amount of Borate in order to keep the mix in solution. As I understood/read it, high levels of Borate skew test readings for Alkalinity (ie. the true dKH will be much lower).

[spikehs]

Try adding some poly-filter... supposed to absorb a wide variety of stuff. Might help...

[Delphinus]

The water thought occured to me too. But wouldn't RO/DI deal with chloramine if it was present?

Interesting about the borate/alkalinity connection .. hmmmm, will have to do some reading on that one. I'm right now using a bucket of Kent, was using IO before that. I've sort of bounced between IO and Kent over the years.

I have run carbon off and on. When I do run it, I have a small amount in a Phosban reactor and try to change it out every week or two. Also, same with the Phosban, I do have some on right now. I'm not sure how to tell when it's time to change it out. People say they change it out when their phosphate levels start going up, I have yet to detect an upward trend when I test PO4. I'm never sure if this means PO4 is OK, or just if my test methods are inadequate. Maybe it's time to buck up and pay a lab to do a chemical workup, if for no other reason than I can maybe express some confidence in the #'s I do come up with. :neutral:

[digital-audiophile]

I'm no expert, not even close, but it really blows my mind that you can keep some really nice clams happy and healthy but you have problems with SPS. Is that little cube you have with the carpets plumbed into the same tank?

[Delphinus]

Hi Greg, it is plumbed together.

This coral in particular though went into my ritteri tank which isn't plumbed into that system. But there's enough transfer back and forth (feeding, or moving a coral over from one tank to another) that if it was, say a pathogen such as a protozoa or a bacteria that it couldn't just hitchhike over and "infect" the other tank. (I hope I'm way off base on this theory though.)

[Der_Iron_Chef]

The water thought occured to me too. But wouldn't RO/DI deal with chloramine if it was present?

It should deal with it.....but how old are your filters? And what type of carbon filter do you have on there? I've read about the difference between catalytic carbon vs. granular activated carbon (the former being better for chloramine removal).

Just some thoughts....maybe it's your RO/DI filters?

[marie]

Are you sure its not allelopathy (sp?).With so many people having trouble growing sps I think chemical warfare is a bigger problem then people realize.
In my old 75g tank, I put a cabbage leather into the tank, within a few hours my turbinara closed up and stayed that way for 4 days no matter where in the tank I put it. After doing a large water change and running carbon with no success I removed the leather and the next morning the polyps were all back out on the cup coral. Too big of a coincidence to not blame the cabbage leather.

We tell beginners to start with the easy soft corals before moving on to sps. I wonder how many fail at having an sps tank of their dreams because of our advice. Maybe we should be telling them if they are planning on having an sps tank, to start with montipora.

[Jason McK]

That's exactly what I was thinking Marie.

I know when I started with SPS I still had a cabbage coral and a toadstool Leather. I could not get any SPS to survive in my tank. I finally removed and softies and boom success.

J

[Delphinus]

I can't be sure it's not allelopathy. But it's not quite that easy. I don't really keep a lot of softies. About a half dozen zoanthid colonies and some patches of GSP (hitchhiker's that came in on something). And for what it's worth, all were introduced well after this phenomenon began. Coming into this, I was an SPS guy. I only have non-SPS now because I grew tired of having an empty tank. Look at my tank picture from 2004 - the only softies are a patch of green zoanthids about 30-40 polyps in size. All those corals you see - all have since perished. Also there are many many tanks out there with both SPS and zoanthids, and for that matter, with more colonies and/or larger colonies than what I have.

I still haven't ruled out the anemones however. But ... it's not a slam dunk there either. Look at Cprowlers' tank, or Gary M.'s tank over at RC ... several others on RC that I correspond with have the same species but not this problem.

[marie]

Maybe try taking the acro out (if it's not too far gone) and puting it into a bucket of fresh mixed salt water with a powerhead, heater and a light of some kind on top

I don't think a person can measure success by how many mixed tanks work but by measuring how many mixed tanks fail

To be honest I don't think it could be anything else. You've measured for everything else and everything is where it should be. Therefore it is something you can't measure for and with all the other inhabitants being healthy and growing it isn't something toxic (to them)

[untamed]

I've had a large carpet anemone with my SPS for years and years. The anemone absolutely kills any SPS that it comes into direct contact with...but if there is no direct contact, there is no issue.

[Samw]

I'm sort of wondering if it could be bacterial.

This gets my vote.

[Delphinus]

FWIW this coral pictured is in an isolated tank now (the pictures were taken a day after it was moved into a 20g - the only thing it shares the tank with are an abalone, some cowries and the patch of zoos you see - which I threw in the tank a couple of weeks ago as a sort of canary to let me know if it's cycled or not). It might be too late though.

I actually gave up on the idea of ever putting SPS into my 75g. This coral was put into a separate system, which is why the same symptoms really surprised me. I was really hoping for a different outcome. Let's face it, my ritteri tank is actually quite void of diversity. 3 fish, 2 clams (well, 4, 2 are being babysat), and then some GSP that hitchhiked on a rock one of the clams is attached to.

But, I recently moved a Platygyra out of the 75g into the 115g because it was receding in the 75g, in the hopes to stem that loss. And there are plenty of other things that I do (ie. use the same turkey baster to feed), that for a pathogen would make for a convenient pathway to cross-contaminate the tanks. I know I'm reaching on this, but I do really wonder if there's something to this.

"Fail" is such a strong term BTW. I don't know if I consider my tanks as completely failed even if they can't support SPS. There are plenty of other things about them that aren't all doom and gloom. There's just.... "room for improvement" shall we say. Ok, no, I guess they're partially failed. :( Sigh. I did call this thread "heartbreak" for a reason.

[marie]

"Fail" is such a strong term BTW. I don't know if I consider my tanks as completely failed even if they can't support SPS. There are plenty of other things about them that aren't all doom and gloom. There's just.... "room for improvement" shall we say. Ok, no, I guess they're partially failed. :( Sigh. I did call this thread "heartbreak" for a reason.

Your right it is a stong term and I only use it to describe what some people strive for and never seem to attain, a totm sps dominant tank.

I personally am not too impressed with sps and the only reason my 175g has them is because they are the only things that can tolerate an angel nipping at them and still look colourful.

If I had my way the tank would be full of lps, clams and zoas. Even softies have more going for them then these fuzzy sticks that I have :mrgreen:

[Tom R]

I think I have been fighting this problem for years. I call my setup a mixed reef. Generally speaking it is just the progression for starting in salt water with softies then moving to LPS and finally saying I think I am ready to give these SPS corals a go.

I have not changed my rock or eliminated any of the original softies or SPS. I have sold and traded a number of them to make room for the SPS. I have also grown to like the look.

On the other hand I have continually fought with the SPS trying to get the results I see in so many of my friends fabulous SPS tanks. Their Colours, polyp extension and general well being are what I strive for yet never obtain. My tanks look good to most people, however I just do not get the results I am looking for. The madding thing is I have a 180G and 125G plumbed to the same sump. I am running the same water through both systems. The 180G is 5 years old and made up of my original salt water progression, it has a 1 1/2" sand base and one hugh Toad Stool. My 125G is 2 years old Bare Bottom and only the remnants of softies left on the rocks taken from the main tank. The SPS in it generally have full polyp extension. I have noticed that lately the polyp extension has become somewhat less but is still more than the 180G. At the same time many of the softy remanent have developed into colonies of cabbage and sinularia.

More and more I believe in chemical warfare as being the cause. It is either that or I am just not able to keep SPS. (some people are gardener and some are not)

[Jason McK]

Tony, So was this system just finished the cycle when the Milli was put in it?

[marie]

I think I have been fighting this problem for years. I call my setup a mixed reef. Generally speaking it is just the progression for starting in salt water with softies then moving to LPS and finally saying I think I am ready to give these SPS corals a go.

I have not changed my rock or eliminated any of the original softies or SPS. I have sold and traded a number of them to make room for the SPS. I have also grown to like the look.

On the other hand I have continually fought with the SPS trying to get the results I see in so many of my friends fabulous SPS tanks. Their Colours, polyp extension and general well being are what I strive for yet never obtain. My tanks look good to most people, however I just do not get the results I am looking for. The madding thing is I have a 180G and 125G plumbed to the same sump. I am running the same water through both systems. The 180G is 5 years old and made up of my original salt water progression, it has a 1 1/2" sand base and one hugh Toad Stool. My 125G is 2 years old Bare Bottom and only the remnants of softies left on the rocks taken from the main tank. The SPS in it generally have full polyp extension. I have noticed that lately the polyp extension has become somewhat less but is still more than the 180G. At the same time many of the softy remanent have developed into colonies of cabbage and sinularia.

More and more I believe in chemical warfare as being the cause. It is either that or I am just not able to keep SPS. (some people are gardener and some are not)

I'll make you a deal Tom, you can have all my corals and rock in exchange for new clean live rock :mrgreen: .


Oh and you have to take my foxface and regal angel as well :razz:

[Tom R]

I'll make you a deal Tom, you can have all my corals and rock in exchange for new clean live rock :mrgreen: .


Oh and you have to take my foxface and regal angel as well :razz:

Well Marie I will have to give this some thought. Is there a time limit on the offer?

Tom R

[Delphinus]

Hi Jason, I sure hope so. I've only been monitoring nitrates but there has been a reduction in the initial levels.

But to be clear, I only moved it in there a couple days ago. It was in a different system before that. You know how sometimes when you put your hand in the water, some SPS will slime up a little and you see it as sort of a stringy aura around the coral? This guy was doing that within 3 days of having been purchased, except without me putting my hands in the tank to trigger it. I was just hoping that it was just adjusting to something but it just seemed to worsen.

I moved it on the off chance that there was something in that tank that was bothering it, ie., doing nothing would have ensured that nothing changed. So although moving it into this new tank may be a mistake in and of itself, at least I felt I "was doing something about it."

Who knows, I mean, sometimes a coral just doesn't make the transition from ocean to captive life and this is nothing more than that. It's just that .. I've seen this progression now so often it's driving me crazy. Sometimes a piece will do well for months on end, and grow really well too, then suddenly, bam, it's number comes up. Others are like this and basically succumb more or less instantaneously. To be honest it's the ones that do well for a little while and then suddenly let go, that truly mystify me, more so than the ones that don't do well right off the bat (those ones just confirm to me that "Yep ... something is still not right here." The other ones will make me think I've turned the tide, then I'll go buy some more pieces, and then bam, the phenomenon returns and I'm left wondering why I didn't just learn my lesson and pass over the pieces in the store).

[Aquattro]

I have always had some zoos and GSP in with SPS, no issues. I have not mixed leathers and such though. I did have a time when things didn't do well, and I decided it was a vibrio outbreak and treated with antibiotics for that. The tank turned around after the treatment. This shows that sometimes it's something that can't be measured, so don't assume because the salifert kits say everything is good that it actually is. Lots of things affect a closed environment that are beyond our abilities to assess.

[mark]

For years been reading from people like Calfo and Fenner amongst others that mixed reef don't work long term because of allelopathy. Everything goes great for a few years then systems crash for no apparent reason.

Even just with different softies believe is a issue. For a while my tank was over run with Xenia to the point was throwing it out, got into a few different types of mushrooms and zoos and the Xenia just started to fade away. Around the same time had some Alk spikes so was thinking that, but alk been under control for quite some time. Seems once I started being steady on the carbon the Xenia at least is staying though not growing as before. If only had the will to stop changing things to narrow causes down.

[Tom R]

I see an opportunity. What we need is a CSI Reef Center. It would be interesting if we could take a sample of our water to get a full breakdown analysis of its make up or DNA. This may be available already but at what cost and where.

Tom R

[Delphinus]

What were the symptoms that made you think vibrio?

I'll do some reading on that. I'm reading a few threads on RC where people have theorized about pathogens, so it seems I'm not alone on this one after all. But how can you tell? I'm rather uncomfortable with the notion of an antibiotic treatment, or at least proceeding on something based on an uneducated guess.

[Jason McK]

It sounds to me that the coral, when in the origonal system was defending itself from something. If it was sliming up. Either that or just like you said just didn't make the transition well.

Why not try some Frags. Start off with digitata. Stuff a phosban reactor full of Carbon and run it 24/7 then add a frag or 2.

[Quinster]

Check back to when Gools was TOTM and check his tank load, HUGE LPS and also HUGE SPS, tonnes of growth on both, and even softies from time to time (including an overflow encased in GSP), the only items he didn't have which you do Tony is Clams and Anemones.

[Delphinus]

BTW, I'm not discounting allelopathy as a phenomenon in general, but I am skeptical that it is the cause here. There was a time people skoffed at my suggestions that chemical warfare is happening in our tanks, but nowadays I feel like I'm on the other side of that debate - too often people scream "chemical warfare" or "allelopathy" when something is happening that we can't easily rationalize away. In general, mixed garden type reef tanks do not work well long term because of this. However, I don't really consider what I have to be mixed reefs.

Let me explain myself a little more. At various points in the past 3 years, I have had my tanks completely devoid of corals. The only steadfast inhabitants I've had through this time period now are the fish. I already have the anemones isolated from one another because that I beleive that they will interact without direct contact.

Therefore if it was an allelopathy issue, it should have been impacted by these fallow periods... but it was not. I ran SPS only for the longest time and did well by it until approximately 8 months after I moved. One other thing that I may not have mentioned yet, is that one other thing that leads me to suspect this could be more pathogenic in nature, is that it all started happening after I traded frags with someone. The frags that were acquired in that trade never did well and eventually all perished (despite rampant growth in my other SPS). However, it just seemed that whatever happened to them, would start happening to other SPS, one by one. Until the point was reached where I noticed that all my corals were just not looking the same as before. To an untrained eye things looked great. When the Intermamerican folks came by to deliver my 280g, they made the comment that I had one of the nicest SPS reefs that they had ever seen. I felt honored by the comment but I had this nagging suspicion at the time that things were not right (just based on week to week observations). Within months of that point I had an empty tank, well, basically, a fish-only.

I also think allelopathy would just have a more "random" feel to it. This is rather specific, repeatable and ... I don't know how to say it. "Thorough?" "Complete?" I mean, it's 100%, all you need is to give something enough time.

What worries me is that I'm setting up a new tank, and if it's something that can transfer ... then I'm in a world of hurt. In time, there will be transfer into the new system. Fish will be moved, clams will be moved ... this can't happen without water making the trip with them. If there's something in that water ... I need to find a way to manage that aspect. Well, first to confirm, then to manage I guess.

[digital-audiophile]

What are your plans with the 180, are you going to transfer everything from your 75G or are you starting it from scratch? That may be the true test in the long run if it can keep SPS alive.

I don't know a lot about it but you always hear the term "old tank syndrome" thrown out there, I don't know if there is really an explination for it, or if it is just something that is suggested when an old tank seems to start going wrong.


- LOL you must have been editing your post as I was writing mine.. I think you already answered by question :p

[Joe Reefer]

Tony, I think its karma. You need to get the big tank going. :mrgreen:
Honestly I have no idea what the problem could be.

[Snappy]

Tony,
I am not sure what to tell you, I thought you were on the rebound. I have leathers, gorgonians, zoos, mushrooms, gsp, 20 varieties of LPS and a wack of sps all in the same display. Also plumbed into the same system are 2 other tanks, 1 mostly softies and then my frag prop tank with mostly sps. There has to be more to this story that we are not considering. Are you running carbon? if so, how much and how often do you change it? Are you getting a good enough flow? But even with that, for a mille to slime for days on end is something I have never seen so I conclude there is definately an issue with the water.
Here's a story, I am very sensitive to chemicals and we lived in a house only 3 blocks from where we were living in Acadia. We lived there for three years and during that time I was sick way more than usual or ever before. Anyway, we sold the place 11 years ago & moved to where we are now and my health greatly improved and went back to normal. Is it possible that somehow your house is located near something that could cause problems? Something in the walls, type of insulation, etc? Who knows? I attributed my health issues to a small natural gas terminal that was a few blocks down from where we lived although nobody else around seemed affected by it. Here's another example: I heard of an individual in the States that after months of grief finally tore his whole system apart and found a tarnished penny in the back of his rock work. I guess some kid used his reef as a wishing well during a visit from relatives and it started killing things. I know it sounds like a wierd long shot but given your vast experience & expertize in the hobby and the fact that it has only been a problem since you moved, it just makes me wonder what else it can be. Sometimes there is just something in the air. Can you rig up a carbon filter for your skimmer's air intake? Like I said I know it sounds odd but it might be worth a try.

[Snappy]

Stuff a phosban reactor full of Carbon and run it 24/7 then add a frag or 2.
I think this is the next logical step. I'll give you some frags to experiment with.

[danny zubot]

Sounds like an experiment would be in order. I'll donate some caps frags if you want.

[Delphinus]

As tempted as I am to blame the house or the new location, that of course opens the door to more sinister questions like is it even safe to live in it? :eek: I would hope that this part is OK.

I'm actually not running carbon right now. I can always put some on though, guess it can't hurt. I'm sort of wondering if running UV might be something to look into.

Old tank syndrome is also something I've thought about. I think that this is a mix of both "documented and explainable buildups/depletions" and "something we just throw out there when we can't come up with any other plausible explanation." Ultimately there is so much going on at a level we can't really perceive it's really hard to come up with simple one-tiered approaches to problem solving.

[PoonTang]

Did you dip the frag before you added it? perhaps this did some damage although it doesnt explain the rest of the corals. I doubt chloramine is the problem or else you would have sick fish too, although mabey you levels are still low. Try an ammonia test. Do you have a TDS reading from your RODI, mabey your membrane is shot? Try running a different salt and definately run Carbon 24/7. Another thing you should try is routing your skimmer air intake outside the house. It could be related to new/old house syndrome, cooking,do you smoke? almost anything but you did state it all started when you moved so most likely its either the air or the water at the new house.

[Samw]

What were the symptoms that made you think vibrio?

I'll do some reading on that. I'm reading a few threads on RC where people have theorized about pathogens, so it seems I'm not alone on this one after all. But how can you tell? I'm rather uncomfortable with the notion of an antibiotic treatment, or at least proceeding on something based on an uneducated guess.


Symptoms of the bad strain of vibrio would be Tissue Necrosis (Rapid or non-rapid). The presence of the bacteria alone doesn't mean all acros are going to get sick. Like in humans, not everyone that comes into contact with vibrio vulnificus will exhibit flesh eating disease and die.

http://www.epi.state.nc.us/epi/gcdc/vibfacts.html

"On very rare occasions, people may get sick when they come into contact with Vibrio vulnificus. People infected with V. vulnificus are often hospitalized, and some die."

In a small closed system like our tanks though, it is probably easier for vibrio to takeover a weaker coral. A coral can be weakened by poor water quality of the owner's tank or from being recently transported in a bag by plane or from poor water quality in the holding tank of the retailer. Once a coral is infected, you might have an outbreak and it might make it easier to infect the next weakest coral, and so on.

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/c_bingman_040697.html

"It has recently become apparent that most of the losses of Acropora and other small-polyped stony corals in captivity are due to bacterial diseases. "

"How do I know if my corals have a problem?
The brief answer is that they die. There are a number of ways that can happen, however.

Rapid Tissue Necrosis
Bacterial-Induced Tissue NecrosisBoth of these describe syndromes where acropora and other SPS corals rapidly (or not so rapidly) slough tissue from thier skeletons. "

"I've had it cultured, others have as well. I'm in the process of fulfilling Koch's postulate with the organism, and showing that it causes disease in corals by placing clean corals in contact with the organism.Vibrio vulnificus is a tough customer. It secretes powerful proteases into its environment. It can liquefy wounds in humans. In corals, it seems to break the bonds between cells and between the coral and the skeleton, which leads to sloughing of tissue. "


I'm sort of wondering if running UV might be something to look into.

I wanted to suggest this earlier. I would agree with this idea. It wouldn't hurt.

[andestang]

Do you have an empty tank in the vicinity. It may be sending out some sort of curse.:wink: (Just trying to lighten your mood :mrgreen:)
I'm with the water issue. After some new carbon and phosban(how long since changed-sorry if I missed that somewhere) the frag idea sounds reasonable step. My last house I had a horrible time with all kinds of issues/losses. Now I'm have much better luck and on well water to boot.

[Der_Iron_Chef]

I would love to see you take several gallons of your existing water, an SPS frag, and relocate it all to a quarantined test tank in someone else's home. At least that would rule out something in the air/walls/etc.

[Aquattro]

What were the symptoms that made you think vibrio?



As I said offline Tony, every time I put my hand in the tank, I'd get heavy infections in any open wound. I spoke with my doctor who agreed it could be a strain of vibrio (not flesh eating disease :)) and that the broad spectrum antibiotic could help. Being the idiot I often am, I used all th emeds on my tank instead of me, and the tank did clear up after treatment. I also stopped getting infections from scratches on the rockwork. Vibrio?? Who knows, but the antibiotic did resolve whatever was sloughing my acros. No science here, just experience...:)

[Samw]

This is another look from the bacteria angle and is being applied to all corals, not just Acropora. I'm of the opinion that Acropora are more fragile than other SPS and are more easily infected by bacterial disease. I think the last sentence is interesting.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-03/eb/index.php

"Several years ago, an article appeared that described the bacteria, Vibrio shiloi, as causing bleaching in the Mediterranean coral, Oculina patagonica (Kushmaro 1996). At the time, most people were of the opinion that the conditions of this were unusual. It seemed to occur in a single species in a non-coral reef area. Most researchers were relatively unconcerned. Julian Sprung spoke vocally about this event in a discussion on NOAA's coral-list, and it was similarly met with some skepticism that it could be much of an issue for corals, in general. To be sure, I was one of them. "

"However, one could have heard a pin drop during the elegant and outstanding presentation by Dr. Eugene Rosenberg of Tel Aviv University (Rosenberg 2002). This man single handedly threw the proverbial monkey wrench into the coral world that morning. In the years since the original articles have been published, Rosenberg's team has not only fulfilled Koch's postulates for this pathogen in a textbook-like fashion, but has proceeded to describe the etiology in an extremely impressive manner. "

"In short, Vibrio shiloi is a newly described species of bacteria, related to V. mediterranei, with an as-yet undetermined reservoir; that is, it is not known where or if the presence of this bacteria is normal to the environment, or if it is somehow just recently showing up to affect the area. It follows the temperature cycles of the area precisely, and causes bleaching in warm months followed by recovery as the water temperature declines."

"Interestingly, it only takes 120 bacteria to cause an infection, and the bacteria can reproduce to 109 bacteria/cm3 in five days!! With water cooling below the virulence temperature, the bacteria die rapidly. "

"The reader may ask the same question that has occurred before, and was described above. So what? It's a Vibrio that is found not on coral reefs, but is specific to one coral species that we don't keep and will likely never see. The implications are certainly interesting, but what does it mean to tropical corals? Rosenberg had an answer to this, too. Knowing the skepticism that existed in the community, he has recently gone into the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea and looked at bleached Pocillopora damicornis. Is everyone ready?

A new species of bacteria, Vibrio corallyticus, was consistently found in the tissues of the bleached Pocillopora at a level that already fulfills the first of Koch's postulates. The virulence is even more amazing. At 23° C, there are no visible signs of disease. At 25° C, bleaching occurs. At 27° C, there is rapid tissue lysis. A virulence factor is being produced by this bacteria that correlates extremely well with the temperatures commonly cited as causing coral bleaching. Furthermore, Rosenberg describes the bleaching as spreading; a characteristic seen all too often by both field observers and aquarists. "

"As a final note to this incredible tale, and as if the reader has not had enough already, Rosenberg also found that Oculina in shallow water, even in high temperature and exposed to V. shiloi, rarely bleached. They found that UV radiation acted as an effective sterilizer for V. shiloi on the coral surface! "

[Aquattro]

Sam ,that might be a good answer in that thread from a week or so ago on the benefits of UV. I'm not sure it was brought up there.

[Joe Reefer]

As I said offline Tony, every time I put my hand in the tank, I'd get heavy infections in any open wound. I spoke with my doctor who agreed it could be a strain of vibrio (not flesh eating disease :)) and that the broad spectrum antibiotic could help. Being the idiot I often am, I used all th emeds on my tank instead of me, and the tank did clear up after treatment. I also stopped getting infections from scratches on the rockwork. Vibrio?? Who knows, but the antibiotic did resolve whatever was sloughing my acros. No science here, just experience...:)

This is funny.

[digital-audiophile]

You know, that actually makes sense. I have pretty bad excema on my hands, but in the past couple couple months I have found that my hands seem to be getting worse. My doctor prescribed me a cream that is actually for jock itch becuase he figured I have some kind of fungal infection. The cream does not seem to be helping that much and maybe it is becuase I have open cuts from the cracked skin and I keep infecting myself in the tank water...... hmm very interesting.

[Canuckgod420]

I've been fighting a problem like this for over a year now.....I had a tank full of sweet acros along with an anemone, cabbage leather, toadstool leather, some zoos, and a bunch of GSP.
One day I noticed that the cross piece on my trim up top had completely broken free and now the tank was bowing out alot. So I clamped the tank, all was ok.
I got the replacement part and set a side a day to drain the tank and replace the top trim.
At the same time I made the decission to change my lighting set up( I didnt like the cheap reflector I was using) and I also changed my salt from kent to tropic marin.
The work went fine, all was well. Then just a few days later I began to notice that the acros were beginning to lose tissue on the tips...I just assumed this was from air exposure for the hour it took to do the work. But as the days went on things got worse.....panic set in.
My fish were fine, softies were fine but the zoos started to suffer as well, then the anemone moved into a shaded area........what was going on?
I couldnt figure it out. Needless to say all the sps died...it sucked....so I left everything else in there for several months....all the fish looked good.
Then I tried another couple of frags of sps...they died in 3 days.
So I stripped down the tank, removed all the sand and sifted through it, someone had told me to check for a penny. Nothing was found......so I rebuilt the tank added some new sand and a few new rocks and let the tank cycle again.
Then I added some more sps....guess what? They were doing ok.....until 3 days ago......I removed some glass pieces I had on top of the tank for cleaning(about 30 minutes) and not even an hour later some of the sps were dumping tissue again....now I have several frags that are suffering. I attribute this to too much light....I'm probably wrong but what else do I have to blame?
I moved my lights way up and shortened the time the lights are on....we'll see what happens.

[Aquattro]

This is funny.

Um, not really. Maybe I just don't get the funny part.....

[Phanman]

I think he was implying to the fact you used the medication on your fish tank instead of yourself. :biggrin:

[Joe Reefer]

Um, not really. Maybe I just don't get the funny part.....

The "I used all the meds on the tank" part.

[danny zubot]

Originally Posted by reef_raf http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=287170#post287170)
Um, not really. Maybe I just don't get the funny part.....
The "I used all the meds on the tank" part.
__________________

Such a selfless act.:wink:

Tony, what is your light power output and cycle on that tank anyway? I think there might be something to Canuckgod420's suggestion that there is too much light. The only reason I might think this is valid is because I say a local reefer's tank that blew my mind, and he was running his lights for only 8 hours a day. I always thought that a reef needed minimum 10-12 hours to thrive, but I thought I'd try reducing my photo period and see what happens. Bam, within a week my SPS gained more color. So I increased my photo period to 10 hours from 8 recently just to see what would happen, and my SPS lost color. Go figure!

Of course, I have 400 watts over my tank which might play a huge roll in my experience. Anyway, free advice is worth what you pay for it. Lots of good theories in this thread anyway.

[Delphinus]

Well now that is very interesting. I run my halides for 10 hours over my 75g and the tank this coral was put in is run 12 hours (because there is no dawn/dusk cycle). The light is a single 250W halide. That is a really interesting observation...

[Aquattro]

The "I used all the meds on the tank" part.

Ok :) I thought it was stupid, not funny, I could have been in trouble, medically speaking. Would I do it again? Oh yea! :) I'm seein' the funny part now....

[Joe Reefer]

I know this is not on topic but I can attest to the halide theory. I am down to 8 hours a day. Color is ok.

[Quagmire]

As I said offline Tony, every time I put my hand in the tank, I'd get heavy infections in any open wound. I spoke with my doctor who agreed it could be a strain of vibrio (not flesh eating disease :)) and that the broad spectrum antibiotic could help. Being the idiot I often am, I used all th emeds on my tank instead of me, and the tank did clear up after treatment. I also stopped getting infections from scratches on the rockwork. Vibrio?? Who knows, but the antibiotic did resolve whatever was sloughing my acros. No science here, just experience...:)


So Brad did you notice any sort of cycle after treating the tank? I curious what effect the antibiotic would have on the bacteria in the rock.

UV sounds like a good idea,it would clear up any free floating bacteria or viruses,maybe stop it from spreading.

[Aquattro]

So Brad did you notice any sort of cycle after treating the tank?

No, can't say that I "noticed" one, but I never tested anything. Everything was doing much better than before treatment, so that was good enough.

[Delphinus]

Buh ,, ... so, just in case anyone was wondering ... Zeovit wasn't the saviour I hoped it would be. 5 frags down the tubes this week, same thing, starts with a loss of colour, then recession from the tips. Seen this before so I know what's next.

I've changed my signature to include a nice little Haiku-ish poem for now.

Ugh,.. this has been going on for far too long. I hate that I can't grow SPS anymore.

[Pan]

Buh ,, ... so, just in case anyone was wondering ... Zeovit wasn't the saviour I hoped it would be. 5 frags down the tubes this week, same thing, starts with a loss of colour, then recession from the tips. Seen this before so I know what's next.

I've changed my signature to include a nice little Haiku-ish poem for now.

Ugh,.. this has been going on for far too long. I hate that I can't grow SPS anymore.
Maybe it's the reef gods telling you...and catherine. Stop focusing on anything but the big tank, then i will let you have sps again :)

[BMW Rider]

I quit using the Reefresh system about ten days ago, and started dosing some potassium suppliment to my tank. Thus far, all my sps are looking much better and the glass is not turning opaque green in eight hours like it had been. I can actuall go three days between glass cleanings and even then its not horrible. Some of the SPS frags and colonies that had been receding have shown new growth, and colour is improving on all of them. Polyp extension is also better. Not sure which change is helping, but I don't care, I'm going to maintain this routine at least until I've used up the bottle of K suppliment. I'd like to find a test kit for it, but so far haven't been able to track one down.

I don't know if you can derive any conclusions from this for your tank or not, but htought it may give you something to consider.

[Delphinus]

Potassium is one of the last frontiers for me. Tell me about your dosing regimen .. I'm a little hesitant to dose anything without testing. I do have a Potassium test kit (this one (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=zv-tpot)) but it is inordinately the most difficult test kit to read. Basically, you're guessing the value based on how opaque the liquid is. I thought comparing colours was a subjective guess, this is worse!! Basically if in the end you're just guessing the overall value you can just guess without spending the cash. :lol: However, I think it's more or less the only test kit for K and if you're anything like me, it's just a more comfort zone knowing you can test when you're actively dosing something (because it's generally imperative to know when to stop, IME).

Right now I am cleaning the glass every day. If I don't do it every day, it gets harder to clean with every day that goes by.

I do wonder about the K thing. It's just that I tested it and .. well, I think the end reading was about 400 (top of the scale). So either I guessed wrong, or K isn't really the issue.

[Pan]

Potassium is one of the last frontiers for me. Tell me about your dosing regimen .. I'm a little hesitant to dose anything without testing. I do have a Potassium test kit (this one (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=zv-tpot)) but it is inordinately the most difficult test kit to read. Basically, you're guessing the value based on how opaque the liquid is. I thought comparing colours was a subjective guess, this is worse!! Basically if in the end you're just guessing the overall value you can just guess without spending the cash. :lol: However, I think it's more or less the only test kit for K and if you're anything like me, it's just a more comfort zone knowing you can test when you're actively dosing something (because it's generally imperative to know when to stop, IME).

Right now I am cleaning the glass every day. If I don't do it every day, it gets harder to clean with every day that goes by.

I do wonder about the K thing. It's just that I tested it and .. well, I think the end reading was about 400 (top of the scale). So either I guessed wrong, or K isn't really the issue.

Here is another one for you Tony.
http://stonyreef.com/blog/2008/potassium-in-reef-tank-fauna-marin-potassium-kalium-test-kit/

[Delphinus]

That one does sound better, thanks for the heads-up. Haha, now to find one.. :)

[Pan]

That one does sound better, thanks for the heads-up. Haha, now to find one.. :)
Well oceanaquatics carries the fauna marin ultralith...they should be able to get their test kits as well? :)

[albert_dao]

Well oceanaquatics carries the fauna marin ultralith...they should be able to get their test kits as well? :)

Fauna Marin test kit is garbage. Everything reads 400 ppm. EVERYTHING.

[Pan]

Fauna Marin test kit is garbage. Everything reads 400 ppm. EVERYTHING.
Fine be that way! :)

http://www.thomassci.com/product/26126
or
http://www.clarksonlab.com/vLam.htm

[Delphinus]

My rant with the KZ test kit is that I can't read the results. The instructions say to take the reading from when you can't see the colour strip anymore through the vial, OR when you can only barely see the colour strip. My problem is these are two very different spots. If they were close that would be one thing, but they're not that close. The point where I can't see the colour strip anymore is about 310-320. The point where I can only barely see the colour strip is the darkest point of the strip, ie., top of the scale, which is 400. So which is the reading? 310? or 400? 400 sounds implausible, why would have I have high K when I've never dosed it before. But reading up on zeovit.com it seems that you are supposed to take the reading when you can only barely see the test strip. So that means 400. But reading up on the perils of low K, it sounds like it could be a plausible explanation. So maybe it's 310? But being 310 or 400 is very important to know before I embark upon any kind of dosing.

Sigh. I throw my arms up in the air over this one. The only form of testing that I trust with degree of confidence are titrations or volumetric based test kits. Too bad the chemisty just isn't there for some things. If any point you find yourself saying "I guess this vial matches this colour" or "I guess I can't see the strip anymore through the liquid" - confidence in the value goes right out the window. Or should I say, "I guess" confidence goes out the window. Or I guess it's a window. I guess I can't really be sure. I guess I can't really be sure of anything. I guess.

[digital-audiophile]

Tony,

Did you try to modifiy your zeo dosing regiment as suggested by G.Alexander? I have found with new modified dosing schedule and the addition of a vortech my green film algae/cyano is all but gone again.

[Jason McK]

I agree 100% Tony. I just can't read that test kit. I still try to read it. The crazy thing is your ability to see through the liquid is also determined by ambient light.
Anyway. I did notice huge improvements in coral when using K. But I have stopped because of the inability to test

J

[Delphinus]

Hi Greg, yes I did and it did indeed kick back the slime. There are still some spots but nowhere near as bad.

This problem with the frags is I think something else. I guess it could be that the weekly water changes caught up to me and the new seawater has params out of whack. I had to buy a huge box of Mg supplement from littlesilvermax and I've already used about about 20% of it just correcting my tanks (and I'm not there yet - I'm only raising the tanks by 50ppm per day, they should be hitting their target values tomorrow or Thursday) and my water change water.

So much for Aquamedic salt! Problem is I'm so stubborn. I paid $90 for this bucket of salt, I can't throw it out. Hopefully it's just the Mg is out but I guess I should double-check the Ca and Alk. At least Ca and Alk don't appear to be deviating in the tanks so I don't really suspect that those params are out. Nevertheless the Mg of 900 is way too low, I won't be using or recommending this brand of salt to anyone. If it's a case of it's a just bad batch, Ok fine, but the thing is, they advertise that the levels are a certain thing, so you expect it to be what it claims it is. A bad batch means there are quality assurance issues, and thus I'm still concluding that I won't use or recommend that brand again.

Anyhow so I have to wonder if the latest casualties are a result of the chemistry of trying to raise Mg over such a profound range. And of course there's the potassium thing too.

Next salt for me is Reefer's Best..

[Delphinus]

Thanks J :) At least I know I'm not the only person who's looking at that test kit thinking "now what?" .. Maybe the solution is just to switch to RBS and not worry about K since K is supposed to be good, out of the box, with that one.

[BMW Rider]

Potassium is one of the last frontiers for me. Tell me about your dosing regimen .. I'm a little hesitant to dose anything without testing. I do have a Potassium test kit (this one (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/product-info.php?product_ID=zv-tpot)) but it is inordinately the most difficult test kit to read. Basically, you're guessing the value based on how opaque the liquid is. I thought comparing colours was a subjective guess, this is worse!! Basically if in the end you're just guessing the overall value you can just guess without spending the cash. :lol: However, I think it's more or less the only test kit for K and if you're anything like me, it's just a more comfort zone knowing you can test when you're actively dosing something (because it's generally imperative to know when to stop, IME).

Right now I am cleaning the glass every day. If I don't do it every day, it gets harder to clean with every day that goes by.

I do wonder about the K thing. It's just that I tested it and .. well, I think the end reading was about 400 (top of the scale). So either I guessed wrong, or K isn't really the issue.

I was a little hesitant on dosing without testing too. I based my decision to go ahead with it based on anecdotal evidence that I found in several threads on various forums. The symptoms seemed to match the low K experiences of others. Tony, you are not the only one who has indicated uncertainty with the test kits, it seems that most of them are pretty subjective to get results and are therefore somewhat unreliable. Still, I'd like to know what my K levels really are.

I have the Pohl's K Balance Strong. The directions for dosing are 1ml per 25 gallons daily, so based on that, I'd dosing 6ml every morning. From what I've read, you'd really have to go crazy with this stuff to OD it, but yes it is a concern to not go overboard with it just the same.

Just wanted to add to this: I don't have the low Mg issue like you. I have been dosing additional Mg and have had reasonably stable wter parameters for Ca, Kh and Mg, so it is still possible that your situation is from other factors than low K or perhaps in addition to it.

[Jason McK]

Not sure about your Salt Tony. I've never heard of Aquamedic salt. I'm wonder what buffer they use. I know a lot of salts have been boosting ALK with Boron and it is rally a false buffer.
I'm current;y using RBS and Love it. But Seachem salt is also rated in the 360 -400 for Potassium

J

[Delphinus]

Yeah I definitely regret having tried this salt. Man, that's worrisome about the Boron giving a false alkalinity reading.

I run both a calcium reactor and a kalk reactor though so hopefully that means my Ca and Alk levels in the tank are solid readings.

I think I have decided though to just simply give up on SPS for now. I thought Zeovit would help me out of this 3 year nightmare but it's maybe a case of too little too late. I was utterly convinced that due to the age of the tank (6 years) that this was a nutrient buildup in the substrate and that running Zeovit would help pull it out. I now think though that this is not the case. I can't get a PO4 reading, and NO3 ranges from 0 to 4 or 5 (and "4 or 5" is not a fatal NO3 reading). So it's something else, and since it's not Ca, it's not Alk, and since it started happening well before I tried this salt it's likely not the Mg, and, well, I can't say for sure if it's potassium or not but honestly at this point it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that it has nothing to do with potassium. It's not AEFW, it's not red bugs ... if it is an organism it's something invisible, if it is a parameter it's something untrackable. How does one fight an enemy they can't see?

Since it's restricted to SPS, maybe the solution is pull out the pieces that are not yet showing stress and give them a future with potential instead of the inevitable.

The cycle of "I think this tank is on the rebound!" to "oh, no it's not, after all" is just starting to get to me. My fish, my clams, gorgonians and LPS do fine, so maybe it's better just to focus on keeping those happy in the remaining months that it will take me to finish the renos on my basement and get the new tank running. And just hope beyond reckoning that the new tank doesn't inherit this problem .. I hate to say it but I think if it comes to that I may be done. There's this nice X-C bike I've been looking at but I can't afford it right now, but boy oh boy I could buy like 3 of them if I sold off all the tank crap I have lying around. :lol:

[Delphinus]

Debated starting a new thread or adding to this one. Instead I started a new one but thought I'd link to it here. http://canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=47089