Water Purification

[richtg]

I assumed that skimming would be the first choice of most people. Please explain your preferred method, and if skimming isn't your first choice, why.

[Willow]

you left out refugium.

[muck]

you left out refugium.
Yep. Refugium all the way. :wink:

[Funky_Fish14]

Ditto that, but does refugium include mangrove? Cause thats what I would do, fuge/mangrove combo.

Infact, I want to try that on a large tank, lol.

[TheReefGeek]

I vote large macro fuge as well

[Murminator]

Live rock cause that what I use now :mrgreen:

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Macro (chaeto, red halimenia & prolifera) & lowered feeding rates.

[danny zubot]

I voted other.

I would do a fuge/berlin style sump with a refersed flow fluidized sandbed to optimize bacterial cultures.

[MobyDick]

i just used carbon and that's it......now it got a skimmer a year ago and i notice alot less algea.I had a eclipse canopy with 2 n/o 15 watt and "3 stage" filter on the 20, I have had my 20 gal since i was 12..... now 20. i never knew about all this info. on the net it really helps out lots!!!!!!

[Willow]

I voted other.

I would do a fuge/berlin style sump with a refersed flow fluidized sandbed to optimize bacterial cultures.

did this statement come from a reef word generator? it doesnt even make sense.

[richtg]

AHH, the fuge. I knew I forgot something...

[richtg]

Annother glitch is that most of us already have live rock and a sand bed. Oh well, I'm getting the picture.

Danny, I didn't have enough options on the poll to include combos. No soup for you. Banned for life!

[Doug]

Voted other for my turf scrubber. :smile:

[danny zubot]

did this statement come from a reef word generator? it doesnt even make sense.

I can draw it for you.

[Beverly]

We have no skimmers on any of our three reefs and I replied other.

We use a combination of mechanical filtration and marcoalgae in the tanks.

[muck]

and marcoalgae in the tanks.

polo :mrgreen:

[Beverly]

NO! Marco Polo is NOT in my tank :lol:

Caught me in a typo, you lucky guy :wink: Actually, my posts are riddled with typos. Stupid fingers don't do what my brain is telling them to do. Or else I have a stupid brain and pretty smart fingers. Oh, who knows where the problem is :razz: Anyway, have to edit heavily before posting otherwise all my posts would pretty much be gibberish :razz:

[andrewsk]

I would use no of the above. I agree on the refugium. What about an Ozinizer.

[Bob I]

There is a serious flaw in the poll question. It matters not to me that skimmers exist because I don't use one, and most importantly I have no desire, or plan to get one. IMO skimmers are grossly overrated gadgets.

[TheReefGeek]

I would think you would have to try one in order to be able to say whether they are overrated or not. If you could say you ran without one, then ran with one, then ran without one again, and saw no benefit with the skimmer, then you could say they are overrated. But saying they are overrated without ever trying it, im not sure how you would justify your opinion.

[danny zubot]

Bob, if you've never had one then how can you possibly decide if they are "grossly overated" Have you seen skimmate?

[Bob I]

It would of course be an exercise in futility to engage in an argument. I have stated an opinion, and that is as far as I will go. I have run a very successful reef tank for the last five years without resorting to a skimmer except a brief unsatisfying experience with one, and my decision is to leave the gadget to those who believe there is need for one.:biggrin:

[TheReefGeek]

Yes, it is possible to run a successfull reef without a skimmer, nobody will argue that.

But could that same reef be run easier, and possibly even healthier, with a skimmer?

Bob, what skimmer did you try, on what size tank? What made the experience unsatisfying?

[Beverly]

I'm with boB on this one.

A few years ago, we ran a Precision Marine HOT skimmer on our first two reefs for about 2-3 years. Produced great skimmate! But fiddling with it to remove micro bubbles, fiddling to get the skimmate not too wet or too dry, and coming home to at least two floods was just too much freaking work! Now that we live in a second storey condo, floods are a major no-no :razz:

I know we do exta work to compensate for the lack of skimmers on our three reefs, but we don't have any more floods and don't have to fiddle with extra machinery. IMO, our reefs look great.

Rory and countless others have seen our skimmerless reefs. Anyone care to comment on how our reefs are doing without skimmers?

[Psyire]

I think you can run a tank just fine without a skimmer. However once you get into the bigger tanks a skimmer is almost a necessity, due to the amount of time and money required to due major upkeep all the time. My total system volume nears 250 gallons and I would not like changing 10-20% of this every week. If I was retired and didn't have much on the go, well I could manage that, but I'm not. I perfer doing less waterchanges and pulling oodles of junk out with my skimmer. I also think that the balance in my tank is better due to the fact that I'm always pulling out waste that is theoretically introduced as food everyday. It dosen't accumulate until my next water change.

Bev gets away with not skimming, but she's also on a very strict maintenance schedule that some people would have a hard time adhereing to.

[Bob I]

Yes, it is possible to run a successfull reef without a skimmer, nobody will argue that.

But could that same reef be run easier, and possibly even healthier, with a skimmer?
If that same reef is my reef, the answer is emphatically NO

Bob, what skimmer did you try, on what size tank? What made the experience unsatisfying?

It must be remembered that I have been keeping salt water tanks off and on since the middle seventies. I have probably tried every gadget that was foisted upon the unwary hobbyist. And my findings are that the skimmer is just an overrated gadget.

[Quagmire]

Fuge and 10-15% weekly water changes on the tank without the skimmer....wait a minute ... same routine for the tank with the skimmer.

[TheReefGeek]

Bob, I cannot possibly "remember" that you have been keeping SW tanks since the 70's, I wasn't even born! :)

What size tank(s) are you currently running skimmerless? Any more details on your tanks? Cleaning regiment, fuge, etc?

[Aquattro]

One thing to keep in mind is what "reef" means to you. I keep primarily SPS, and feel that a skimmer is essential. If I instead kept a tank with zoos and/or softies only, I would have to seriously consider not using a skimmer. I have seen tanks of this type that appear to do better with higher nutrient levels.
We certainly can't argue with Bob about skimmers, he's been not using one for ever and his tanks all do just fine. I use a skimmer and my tank does just fine. So who's right? Both of us. Or neither, depending on how you look at it.

To address the topic, if skimmers didn't exist, I'd use ozone, GAC and water changes. And I'd invent skimmers and get rich!!

[Psyire]

The problem with ozone is that the best way to run it is with a skimmer. From what I've read those ozone reactors aren't all that great.

[Psyire]

Fuge and 10-15% weekly water changes on the tank without the skimmer....wait a minute ... same routine for the tank with the skimmer.

I'd like to point out that people don't do 10-15% water changes weekly. Even those who say they do. (there are exceptions ofcourse)

I'd say the average reefer does 1 per month. (remember there are people out there that do 1 or 2 per year)

[Beverly]

Even when we ran a skimmer, we did weekly maintenance on our reefs. I think it's just a good habit to get into. JMHO, though.

[Quagmire]

I'd like to point out that people don't do 10-15% water changes weekly. Even those who say they do. (there are exceptions ofcourse)

I'd say the average reefer does 1 per month. (remember there are people out there that do 1 or 2 per year)

So are you saying Im above average?? or just strange :) BTW a 10-15% water change for me is one 5g bucket for each tank.So not alot of work.

[Beverly]

Quagmire,

We're probably just strange :razz: :wink:

[TheReefGeek]

I am lazy, so to get a water change done every 1-2 weeks, I automate it as much as possible. My barracuda has a t off it to a flexible line through the roof, across the house, and hooks into the drain line with my washing machines. I just change the ball valves, and bad water goes away. I use a plastic trashcan with a pump in the bottom, put in the same amount of salt every time, then put my attachment onto the pump to pump it into my sump. Dont even have to get my hands wet. I let it sit overnight mixing of course.

[richtg]

I decided to make the poll based on the fact that the vast majority of reefers (IMO) would have chosen skimmers as their first choice. I wanted to know what people felt about other forms of filtration and open a general discussion about them.

Ozonators will have to fall into the "other" category, as most people have a budget that wouldn't allow one.

Great input so far,
Rich.

[TheReefGeek]

First would be live rock and sand for me, not a skimmer.

[Bob I]

I do want to mention that I am not totally devoid of filtration means. I have for years used Chemipure in a Fluval. I don't know if it does wonders as claimed. However, I have never had a problem with tank crashes etc., therefore I will continue using it even when later in the year I am forced to go FOWLR. And as a note to Brad, I have a few bits of SPS corals. Notably a smallish colony of Blue Tipped Staghorn that does great.:mrgreen:

[Fish]

I am a huge fan of protein skimmers but unfortunately it wasn't possible to have one with my impossibly-clean-no-visible-equipment-cube. All I have for filtration is LR in the main tank and LR and chaeto in the cannister filter.

- Chad

[danny zubot]

How does Chaeto grow inside on the cannister without light?

[Fish]

Danny,
Are you serious... you aren't familiar with my work? Canreef isn't that big of a place; some of the members here helped vote my tank up to "thread of the month" on reefcentral a little while back. And the other day I called the owner of www.nanotuners.com in the States and he told me I was "a legend" down there. Get with the times man... c'mon, a legend!

- Chad

[danny zubot]

Sorry dude, I haven't had the time at work to read that novel!:wink:

[Fish]

Haha touche. Well, the coles notes version is that one of the modifications that I made was to put a submersible light inside the cannister filter.

- Chad

[Funky_Fish14]

Anyone care to comment on how our reefs are doing without skimmers?

I'll jump.

Beverly's reefs are probably three of the best looking reefs I've seen. Zero clutter in the tanks, they are VERY clean, all the corals are very healthy, and the fish didnt looked stressed at all. Also, I remember the tanks, and water looking VERY clear, which, not to say its a bad thing, but doesnt seem to be the case in every tank.

Chris

[fortheloveofcrabs]

I will second that, Bev's reefs are fantastic! Mind you Harvy's 33 gal cube (now no longer, sob sob sob) was the #1 reef I've seen and I believe he is a gadget geek. That said what really makes a good looking reef, is the the aquascaping. You can have a tank full of mushrooms, xenia, polyps, some shrimp and few damsels or clowns - if properly aquascaped it will look like a million bucks (whatever that means). Having said all this, I think a skimmer can be good and can be bad. I have an alveopora, it was not doing well until I removed my skimmer. That said, when I first started the tank, I had an algae growth in the water column problem (like not see you hand in the tank unless it was touching the glass 'algae growth in the water column problem') and I could not, for the life of me, change enough water to get it out. My trusty skimmer and 9 hours, BAM! Clean as a whistle!

So, everything in moderation...

-Pauli

[StirCrazy]

I'm with boB on this one.

A few years ago, we ran a Precision Marine HOT skimmer on our first two reefs for about 2-3 years. Produced great skimmate! But fiddling with it to remove micro bubbles, fiddling to get the skimmate not too wet or too dry, and coming home to at least two floods was just too much freaking work! Now that we live in a second storey condo, floods are a major no-no :razz:

I know we do exta work to compensate for the lack of skimmers on our three reefs, but we don't have any more floods and don't have to fiddle with extra machinery. IMO, our reefs look great.

Rory and countless others have seen our skimmerless reefs. Anyone care to comment on how our reefs are doing without skimmers?


Yes Bev, but how much extra work has not having a skimmer cost you? mind you I think you have a little bit of Obsessive/compulsive going on anyways with your water changes and tank maintenance so it probably works for you, but for normal people who don't want there tanks to consume there whole life.....:mrgreen:

Sorry Bob, I can't back you on this one.. I tried your "skimmer-less" ideal for the last 6 months as I figured what the heck I am building a new one anyways.. anyhow.. algae ran out of control, water changes went from 10% a month to about 50% a week personal maintenance went to a daily thing instead of every month.. sorry I don't have the time to not run a skimmer.

to replace a skimmer you need more than just 1 thing up there for example a Skimmer will:

remove dissolved organics = Carbon
remove undissolved stuff = mechanical filter
remove nitrates by removing the stuff that causes them in the first place = mechanical filter + live rock/sand bed/fluidized filter

OK now you still have other benefits that you will be missing.. a all in one solution, aeration of the water with out air stones or excessive surface movement which leads to salt creep, extra water flow.. ect..

for what it is worth there are ways to stop a skimmer from putting bubbles into a tank so that should never be an issue. and sense a skimmer is basically a closed loop there is no reasons for floods if you use some common sense and chose your skimmer and set up with what you want to achieve in mind.

Steve

[Beverly]

Steve,

FWIW, quoted from http://www.nimh.nih.gov/HealthInformation/ocdmenu.cfm ....

Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, OCD, is an anxiety disorder and is characterized by recurrent, unwanted thoughts (obsessions) and/or repetitive behaviors (compulsions). Repetitive behaviors such as handwashing, counting, checking, or cleaning are often performed with the hope of preventing obsessive thoughts or making them go away. Performing these so-called "rituals," however, provides only temporary relief, and not performing them markedly increases anxiety.

Yes, it may be funny to some people to obliquely infer that someone who has different reefkeeping methods from one's own as mentally ill. I can assure you, however, that among my human frailties and health issues, OCD is not among them. I would be insulted for myself and for others who do weekly tank maintenance if I didn't think your comments come from either ignorance of the serious nature of OCD and other mental illnesses, or if you just wanted to yank my chain, or both.


Anyway, on to other matters.....

What good does a monthly 10% water change do for your tank? Why even bother with water changes at all when they are so infrequent and small? I know a guy at the lfs who boasts he hasn't done a water change in three years and has shown me pics on the web to prove his corals' health. You've got all the gadgets and know how to pull off something like this. Why not do what he does?

For that matter, what good does a measly weekly 15% water change do for my tanks? It certainly does not raise my alk, Ca or Mg, and if I had nitrate/phosphate issues, 15% a week wouldn't even begin to address them. I've read that doing frequent water changes replenishes trace elements, but I have no way of testing to know if that's true. I've also read that doing frequent water changes adds heavy metals from the salt mix into the tank, which, over time, can be unhealthy for a tank's inhabitants. Again, I have no real way to test this either.

I think the real issue at hand is that comparing my tank and my maintenance regime to your tank and your maintenance regime is comparing apples to oranges. You have chosen one way to keep a reef and I have chosen another. IMO, what works for each of us, if indeed our maintenance regimes are doing what we claim they do, should be good enough.

Cheers to all reefers!

[TheReefGeek]

Just wanted to comment on finicky skimmers, micro bubbles and floods.

1. For hang-on skimmers, you unfortunately have a small risk here, but mitigate it by using high quality designs like Remoras and this should not be a problem. For in-sump skimmers, proper sump design will eliminate micro bubbles. You need to allow enough space for the bubbles to rise and pop, baffles help as well.

2. For floods because of a skimmer overflowing, just drill the collection cup high up and emptly it into a 5g bucket for it to overflow into.

3. Some skimmers do require lots of tuning for initial setup. But I think this setup time is less than the time required to maintain a non-skimmer setup. If you have to keep tuning your skimmer, then something keeps changing in your reef, likely inconsistant water level, and dosing your tank with different products.

Bev's skimmerless tanks work for her and that is great. She does have very nice tanks, they are beautiful and really quiet which is nice.

But she has trade-offs too. She keeps her bioload really low, does tons of tank maintenance and runs bare bottom.

So a reefer has to figure out if they are willing to make this trade-off or not. I know I am not, I like high bioloads and the look of a sand bottom and try to keep maintenance to a minimum. For the bulk of reefers, and especially those just getting into the hobby I think a skimmer is essential.

[Beverly]

Rory,

Thanks for the compliments :biggrin:

Low bioload is only one reason I keep fewer fish than most people. The other, and probably more important reason, is to not be a heavy consumer of wild fish populations. I've talked at length about this consumer issue on other recent threads, one of which is the LFS debate.

[TheReefGeek]

You're welcome, you deserve it, your obviously care for and care about your reefs a great deal.

[titus]

Hello,

I used to run a PM-Bullet 2 on a 40g (incl sump) and can leave it for 2 months if not more without doing any water changes. Now I'm running a 10g without a skimmer and 30% water change weekly and the tank is still not even close to as clean as the one with the skimmer.

The loading on the 10g is less per gallon than the 20g system.

Running a skimmer as other advantages. These include gas exchange, which also compensate for the daily pH swing somewhat, and cooling.

My opinion is that it is perfectly alright to run a skimmerless system, and having a skimmer does not degrade and can only contribute.

Titus

[JHG]

Considering I don't currently have a skimmer and am in the market for one, I rely solely on LR/LS and carbon, especially when introducing new corals.