LFS shoot themselves in the foot

[JohnM99]

I bought a lot of my equipment online, since much of what I wanted was not available in the local shops. I do feel I want to support the LFS though - but geez they make it difficult.

I wanted to get a new heater for replacement water. I let my old one go dry and it died.

I checked a couple of online prices - Ebo Jager 100 W is about $16 US at Premium Aquatics - or $24.65 at J&L. A bit high at J&L I thought, since the $16 US is less than 19 CN now.

But, I thought this is something I should buy locally - so I went to the LFS - how much COULD it be? Maybe 30 or 40 bucks?

But no........ they were asking $54.95. I just about choked.

This amount of markup is just going to guarantee I will not bother buying locally - I don't mind paying more - but that amount is just insulting.

Imagine if other businesses tried to do that - buying a TV or a fridge or a car - would you pay $60,000 for a Honda Civic. Sheesh.

Thanks. I feel better now.

[AC33]

Yeah, a lot of LFS and local pet stores do seem to charge 2X-3X more on many items as compared to the US. But you have to remember, as in the case of J&L aquatics, is that they do have to pay shipping costs and duties to get items shipped across the border, so $24.65 seems very reasonable.

[RonPeter]

I buy 90% of my stuff from J&L, the LFS in Vernon is so out to lunch on his prices it's rediculous! Even if I have to pay shipping charges I save at least 40% on an order. Example....Coralife SupperSkimmer was $185.00 at J&L and my LFS wanted $395.00 for the exact same one!!! I priced a Flame Hawk I wanted it was $119.99 at the LFS and it cost me $65.00 to my door from J&L!!!! Corals there are also ALL ridiculously marked up the same way...I guess you get away with it when you are the only Salt water provider in town.

[dirtyreefer]

I was at Total Pet in Kelowna during the holidays and I remember a bag of IO salt (for 50g) was $45. What a joke :p

[RonPeter]

I know...AJ's In Vernon sells 160G IO for $99.99 and when I ask about their high price there reply is "we are doing you a favor selling it that cheap!" I now by it from Pet City in Kelowna for $69.99 a pail. I guess they can get away with it as they are the only Salt LFS in Vernon.

[DanG]

I don't work for a LFS, but I do know the difference in pricing when it comes to buying power. The prices can be drastically different when it comes to buying 20 vs buying 2000. I can definately see paying a premium from the LFS, but more than double is way out of line.

[Stasher]

On a single item at a small local pte store I could see a much larger price.
They don't have the buying power.
They have building, employee costs, shipping etc which they pass on. This is only fair on their part and I do my best to support them, they need to charge certain prices just to make it worth their while to sell.
It's the big box stores I don't understand charging the inflated prices, they have the size and buying power, aren't they supposed to be better, which they are not.
Next time you go to the LFS, if they are a small business, deal with them. Explain to them the what you can get the product for online, but don't forget you often neglect to remember the shipping price you will pay. Tell them you will glady pay marginally more locally for the convenience and support a local store but exagerrated prices are unreasonable. Don't ever compare to american prices, I am a small business owner and when I hear this I take offense, I don't mind you supporting another Canadian store but not an American one. It's not entirely a patriotism thing but I would rather invest in our economy as the triv=ckle down effect of consumer power will spread throughout the community.

Mostly, my point is that you shouldn't be completely selfish with your purchasing power, be an "informed consumer".

Local price is what you pay...

Online....product plus shipping ( plus duty and brokerage for US)

BTW...I support JL along with my LFS, they are a great store and are very helpful on the phone. Heck, one time I wanted to spend money and they talked me out of it. (A clam, recently treated my tank and they advised me to wait)

[robzilla]

my local pet store goes to vancouver and buys stuff from the coastal stores
and brings it back via his van. so he buys salt for $40 and sells for $99. its seems it bit much for a mark up. some of these lfs need to read the walmart book on how to drive their business.....

[Willow]

all it takes is to tell your lfs why you aren’t going to shop there and where you will shop and why. if they tell you to knock yourself out, go shop else where. the internet and shipping can be great asset in this hobby. be informed when you shop and tell your lfs to cut you some breaks when you bust them on their prices, if they go out of business because they are relying on people spending 99 bucks on a pail of salt they should probably be in another type of business.

[Stasher]

all it takes is to tell your lfs why you aren’t going to shop their and where you will shop and why. if they tell you to knock yourself out, go shop else where. the internet and shipping can be great asset in this hobby. be informed when you shop and tell your lfs to cut you some breaks when you bust them on their prices, if they go out of business because they are relying on people spending 99 bucks on a pail of salt they should probably be in another type of business.

This is basically what I believe.....Running a business requires give and take. Your customers are what keep you in business, you need to respond to their needs and stay at par with the industry.

[JohnM99]

Don't get me wrong about wanting to support local business - and I certainly understand the cost of employees, insurance, spoilage, rent etc - but the amount of markup has to be within reason - and it is bad business. I am sure I am not the only one driven away by a silly markup.

The $50 is not really the point - this hobby is a luxury, and I have spent well into 5 figures and then some - but it just bugs me to see that kind of a markup. I bought a pair of speakers from a high end, small volume audiophile store this week - they were not really all that much higher than the rock bottom web price plus shipping - so why is it different for a LFS? I guess they get away with it.

As for J&L I know they have higher expenses than perhaps Premium Aquatics does - but they are usually closer than that in their pricing - I wonder if the recent rise in the CN $ has yet to be caught up with - ie they bought their stock a while ago at a lower $ value which is still reflected in the price.

Anyway, I will wait 3 days and see what their Boxing Day sale brings. My old Scottish grandfather (who would be 113 now) would roll over in his grave if I didn't.

[Jaws]

This is basically what I believe.....Running a business requires give and take. Your customers are what keep you in business, you need to respond to their needs and stay at par with the industry.

I agree with both of you. If you consult your LFS and tell them you would like to commit to them but it's difficult when other stores are providing you excellent product at an excellent price, there has to be somewhere you both can meet in between. If a store isn't interested in dealing with you at all then they're obviously not too concerned with obtaining your business. I know that I pay a "little" extra at my LFS but I also know that I can count on their advice being nothing short of excellent. If you can't count on that, then what are they charging extra for? Shipping? I already pay extra for shipping when I purchase from somewhere online. Would I continue shopping there if all they offered was an overpriced product?... NO! But if I can count on going there and paying a little bit of a premium, stress the term "little bit", for their personal assistance then I feel it's worth it for me. Your LFS wants to be loyal to you but they're going to want a commitment from you as well. If they're smart, they're going to understand that some of your business is going to end up elsewhere. That's just the way the industry is, but if they're really interested in your business then they should be willing to compromise on some sales that will eventually lead to more consistant business from you in the near future. It's my opinion that a buyer's biggest mistake is to just write off a LFS without consulting them first. Try to understand why they're charging extra and try to determine how you can benefit from paying that extra cost. A good business will always tailor to your needs and try to make you happy if you're willing to work with them as well.

[Renegade]

I personally buy almost everything from J&l's. I don't think its fair to flame them when you don't know what they bought it for. JL's is always good about there prices there are the cheapest LFS that i found. sure something’s may have a mark up but, I don't mind giving a little more even allot (sometimes) b/c I know it will come back to me. I know them quiet well in there as I have bought 99% of the stuff for my tanks there. If I ever had a problem such as a price of a heater, I would talk to them and let them know what I found elsewhere and see what they would say. They may have had to buy them at a little higher price for some reason. I would probably end up buying it from them anyways b/c of the relationship I have built with them. In regards to the Canadian dollar they have signs posted in there store that at this time due to the rise in the Canadian dollar that certain goods are 5% off marked price. I work in retail and unfortunately there’s always going to be inflation. In regards to the TV comment at the beginning, those prices are hugely inflated. The price of electronics at your local best buy or Future shop are amazing what they get away with in comparison with some of your local computer shops. Have you ever asked a staff member of Best buy what they can buy a TV for? I know that when I buy from my LFS that if I ever have a problem with a product I’m not going to have the same hassle trying to return something online. But that’s JMO.

Renegade

[tsakin]

Don't get me wrong about wanting to support local business - and I certainly understand the cost of employees, insurance, spoilage, rent etc - but the amount of markup has to be within reason - and it is bad business. I am sure I am not the only one driven away by a silly markup.


I've tried to reply to threads like this before and it usually ends up being a flame fest, I hope it doesn't this time.

I work in a Calgary idependant LFS so I have a good idea why this happens. The first bit, J&L etc. being so much less expensive than your LFS is a bit of a puzzler. The reason for this, and I'm being absolutely honest here, is that J&L often has equipment like skimmers listed on the website for less than the LFS pays for it from major wholesalers. Quite a bit less in some cases.

I don't know how they do it, the only thing that makes a little sense is that they buy stuff by the truckload and get a steep discount. This is obviously not an option for a smaller store that sells 6 of them a month.

The markup thing is often a misunderstanding. Given rent, employees and all the rest you need a 200% markup usually ($100 to $200). That's they way it is in retail everywhere not just the LFS. You can find higher markups in some sectors but very rarely lower.

So here's the unpopular part and I'm not just trying to protect my part time job. I think that we should still do what we can to support our LFS even if it costs us some. There are the usual argumants for this, J&L (an example, I'm not anti J&L in any way) isn't going to fed ex you a part at 4pm on Saturday but that one doesn't carry much weight. The simple reason is that the LFS is what got you into this hobby. If all we had left were chain stores and online I doubt many of us would be doing serious fish keeping or reefs if we didn't have a cool independant LFS to show us what's possible and guide us through our first little steps.

Places like Walmart may have all the cheap Chinese manufactured goods you can shake a stick at but they also help reinforce a level of mediocrity I don't like much. You aren't going to find XM bulbs or beckett skimmers at Walmart any more than you will at Pet Smart or the other Big Box pet shops but you can get some filter media while you pick up your prescription and a jug of milk. There have been a lot of retail sectors destroyed by Big Box stores this way. They take the bread and butter item sales away from smaller shops, seriously impacting the bottom line and the shops disapear taking with them more specialized items and knowledge. I mean really, ever ask somebody at Home Depot for help with something?

I think that that is the same kind of pressure your LFS is could eventully be under from online retailers. There isn't an easy answer, why pay twice as much for a light fixture, I don't do it either. I hope that people think about this stuff though, we need to support local stores somehow. I hope that his will maybe remove some of the bitterness concerning the "big markup" though, I can see why it may look that way but it really doesn't happen.

[Invigor]

the only thing a local store can offer me over a mail order store is good service, which to a certain extent, includes reasonable prices.

Most stores here do not offer good service or good prices, so that leaves me no choice but to go elsewhere.

[robzilla]

I've tried to reply to threads like this before and it usually ends up being a flame fest, I hope it doesn't this time.

I work in a Calgary idependant LFS so I have a good idea why this happens. The first bit, J&L etc. being so much less expensive than your LFS is a bit of a puzzler. The reason for this, and I'm being absolutely honest here, is that J&L often has equipment like skimmers listed on the website for less than the LFS pays for it from major wholesalers. Quite a bit less in some cases.

I don't know how they do it, the only thing that makes a little sense is that they buy stuff by the truckload and get a steep discount. This is obviously not an option for a smaller store that sells 6 of them a month.

The markup thing is often a misunderstanding. Given rent, employees and all the rest you need a 200% markup usually ($100 to $200). That's they way it is in retail everywhere not just the LFS. You can find higher markups in some sectors but very rarely lower.

So here's the unpopular part and I'm not just trying to protect my part time job. I think that we should still do what we can to support our LFS even if it costs us some. There are the usual argumants for this, J&L (an example, I'm not anti J&L in any way) isn't going to fed ex you a part at 4pm on Saturday but that one doesn't carry much weight. The simple reason is that the LFS is what got you into this hobby. If all we had left were chain stores and online I doubt many of us would be doing serious fish keeping or reefs if we didn't have a cool independant LFS to show us what's possible and guide us through our first little steps.

Places like Walmart may have all the cheap Chinese manufactured goods you can shake a stick at but they also help reinforce a level of mediocrity I don't like much. You aren't going to find XM bulbs or beckett skimmers at Walmart any more than you will at Pet Smart or the other Big Box pet shops but you can get some filter media while you pick up your prescription and a jug of milk. There have been a lot of retail sectors destroyed by Big Box stores this way. They take the bread and butter item sales away from smaller shops, seriously impacting the bottom line and the shops disapear taking with them more specialized items and knowledge. I mean really, ever ask somebody at Home Depot for help with something?

I think that that is the same kind of pressure your LFS is could eventully be under from online retailers. There isn't an easy answer, why pay twice as much for a light fixture, I don't do it either. I hope that people think about this stuff though, we need to support local stores somehow. I hope that his will maybe remove some of the bitterness concerning the "big markup" though, I can see why it may look that way but it really doesn't happen.
you mention that j&l has prices lower than your lfs could get. why dont you purchase from j&l and resell it.
the walmart theory, is to sell more at a lower mark up (which may mean buying from the around the world including china) and make up for it in volume. kinda sounds like what j&l does?
in todays competitive market, lfs need to provide something that online retailers cant. they need to be close in price but excell in service/knowledge, and as many others have commented on....many don't.

[Willow]

i think the reason that j&l can sell stuff so cheap is they buy stuff as a wholesaler in bulk and turn around and sell it for less that retail.

[Psyire]

I don't mind paying alittle more at LFS's, but some of their markup is insane. In alot of cases it's double, which is a ton of money when setting up a big system.

I just recently setup a 180g tank and to do it from a LFS would have been like $16-18,000 for the equipment I purchased. Instead I ended up bringing most of it across the border and my bill was just under $10,000.

That's 6000 or more reasons why I can't buy dry goods at LFS's. (I think this also is a Canadian thing, which I'm not sure why when our dollar is 0.85US or better)

[StirCrazy]

I've tried to reply to threads like this before and it usually ends up being a flame fest, I hope it doesn't this time.

The markup thing is often a misunderstanding. Given rent, employees and all the rest you need a 200% markup usually ($100 to $200). That's they way it is in retail everywhere not just the LFS. You can find higher markups in some sectors but very rarely lower.


in most business I agree the average mark up is 100% but in the fish industry it seams to be more like 200% on large items and up to 800% on cheeper things. some of them are understandable but the 200% on a large ticket item is robery. an example of properly aplied mark up is a local fish store on the Island, he doesn't have a lot of compatition so he can set his own prices but yet he sells the 160g IO salt bucket for around 40 bucks, thats cheeper than in Victoria and from some of the previous posts way cheeper than some places and he isn't a big store with a online wholsale. so how does he do it.. simple stuff like salt ect is a consumable and a large purchase.. keep the mark up reasonable and people will be encourage to do more water changes and buy more as it isn't a lot of money. On the other side if you buy a tank or LR (usaly 1 time purchases) I would expect the mark up to be in the 200% plus range depending on the cost of the item.


J&L (an example, I'm not anti J&L in any way) isn't going to fed ex you a part at 4pm on Saturday but that one doesn't carry much weight. The simple reason is that the LFS is what got you into this hobby. If all we had left were chain stores and online I doubt many of us would be doing serious fish keeping or reefs if we didn't have a cool independant LFS to show us what's possible and guide us through our first little steps.



Nope but they did ship a whole order of snails/fish/ect via airplaine with 2 hours notice on a sunday:mrgreen: people who haven't been in J&L's do not realize that they are a local mom and pop type store like any other one and if they can do it they will for you. some times they are to busy for emergency things but that can happen anywhere.

Steve

[DanG]

A lot of the cheap goods you are talking about could be loss leaders. Salt for $40, while it may cost them $40 to buy from their supplier, they try to upsell on the rest. How frequently do you go into the lfs to buy just salt and end up buying just salt? I know last time I went for just salt I ended up with a new powerhead and a new mag float....

[StirCrazy]

A lot of the cheap goods you are talking about could be loss leaders. Salt for $40, while it may cost them $40 to buy from their supplier, they try to upsell on the rest. How frequently do you go into the lfs to buy just salt and end up buying just salt?

I think he sells it for 45.00 to be exact, so he is making money as J&L is for 39.95. so is he losing no, but he is not making a lot off the salt. as for going in and buying just salt, all the time. I am not a impulse buyer, so I only get what I am goinging for 99% of the time.

Steve

[BCOrchidGuy]

When buying from a manufacturer a store that moves a lot of inventory get what's called a booking price. This price is a per unit price that is discounted based on what they promise to buy during the year. IE if Big Deals on Fish promises said lighting manufacturer that they will purchase $100,000 worth of inventory over the year they will get a discount based on that amount. If the store doesn't purchase that amount they will either pay the difference or be penalized in another way. So, if Big Deals says they are going to purchase that $100,000 they may get a 30% discount off the normal price they would pay, this means they can mark it up 35% and end up selling it for about 5% more than a mom and pop store beside them that can only move perhaps $1000 worth of said manufacturers inventory. The discount will vary, and in this industry I have no idea what they would be, I was in the sporting wear industry and that's what the numbers I mentioned refer to.
One other thing to remember as well is a store that is known for moving a lot of inventory may get special prefference when it comes to clearance or discontinued items. If a light system is no longer available, or a line of powerheads is discontinued a single store may purchase the whole lot of items at a huge discount so the manufacturer or distributor can make room for new items that will probably sell quicker or at a higher price. Prices in Victoria are the way they are because no one will start discounting stuff, if one store started to do that then the others would either have to follow or rely on their service record and their customers loyalty to carry them through, and lets face it if you went to your favorite store to buy a bucket of salt for $99 and it could be had down the street or even on the other side of town for $49, you would probably complain about the price and ask for either a match or a discount, maybe not but I would.

Doug