Coral experiments

[reefwars]

Tonight's experiment is simple


I'm going to fill a glass with saltwater and place a zoanthid frag in the cup then out in the bitter cold it goes for the night , tomorrow morning ill place the block of ice back in my tank and we will see if the zoa will survive it's currently -24 out side

Will take pics of the whole process



I voted will come back to life

[Tn23]

that's just cruel D :D jk
Very interesting experiment, love to see the results as well.
Guess we can then ship zoas all over the world without heatpacks from then on? :wink:

[reefwars]

Frag of blue zoa's is now outside it's so cold it should freeze in about an hour


I have high hopes for " lucky "

[Wheelman76]

Lol , " lucky" hey? Hes gonna need it.

[Wheelman76]

Looking forward to see the results

[mark]

how about a side by side with some GSP and aptasia

[monocus]

the aptasia would survive

[reefwars]

Well I gotta say I'm amazed

the coral this morning was a full block of ice and spent all night in the -24 cold I put it in this morning to thaw amd was opem with in an hour all polyps are out and open to my amazement this coral is going to survive amazing and surprising what a single coral can handle if put to the test

So I guess the question is now should I give it a try for a full week

[reefwars]

Well my mind is blown even though I voted it would survive I kinda thought it would melt and not survive I mean it's way too cold for coral to be outside all night so now goes the question what extremes can coral be put through

[soapy]

Amazing, in addition to being frozen solid it probably also went through some wild salinity swings as the ice froze and thawed. Puts new light on the question of how to acclimate corals.

[reefwars]

Amazing, in addition to being frozen solid it probably also went through some wild salinity swings as the ice froze and thawed.

It got me thinking that maybe it's a gradual cold that the corals don't like or disagree with got me wondering if I should ship single corals in a block of ice instead lol

Or how about preserving coral for many many years to come simply by freezing them this could open up a whole new science in to preserving life for future generations

[reefwars]

The next experiment is to leave one out for a week and see if it can come back to life perhaps the 24 hours was too quick for the polyp to feel affected

[reefwars]

I'm going to closely monitor this coral for the next week or maybe 2 weeks to see how it changes and color size and response time it will be interesting to see if any major changes or effects are visible to the polyp

[eli@fijireefrock.com]

As this sounds like a fun experiment to do at home....
There is I believe one institute in Hawaii that is working for cryogenics corals for the future as I believe its inevitable for our dying reefs.
Its a good paper to read I should find it and post.

[Oilers]

Denny,
None of this actually exists until we see some pictures!! :mrgreen:

[reefwars]

Haha very true I actually have pictures taken of everything all post them on this thread tomorrow I have pictures of the coral before it went outside when its a block of ice and how it looks right now it's pretty cool

[arrowan54]

had red people eaters I was fragging I cut a small part off rock went flying across room could not find it anywhere 2 weeks went by found the little frag in the stand threw it in the tank coral rehydrated opened up looked normal 2 days later it melted completely away so from this observation I am going to say give it a couple days :biggrin:

[reefwars]

Salinity was 1.050 once thawed no new water added

[reefwars]

Will it last?


I once had left live rock outside mid February for about two weeks to kill any organic that were left on the rock including a large Palythoa colony two weeks later the rocks went back into the tank for a cycle and the palys came back and survived long after

However with this particular one I don't expect it to live long term but still looks good so far

[Wheelman76]

That's pretty cool , I didnt think it would survive.

[hillegom]

I voted it won't survive but am amazed it has so far.
I vote for a week test.

[mark]

guess can't use the excuse "UPS let them freeze" anymore

[reefwars]

well the zoanthid as of this morning is dead , one polyp remains but the stress wasnt good for him and he didnt make it:)


so the next experiment you ask?


im going to take 5 single polyp frags and leave them out to dry , each day i will put one back in the tank and then monitor its recovery or death.


cheers

denny

[whatcaneyedo]

I once tried something similar but of the opposite extreme. I took a rock out of my tank that had a small patch of green star polyps on it that I wanted removed. I then blasted the star polyps with a small butane torch for a while until I figured they'd be good and dead. Afterwards I returned the rock to the tank and about a week later the star polyps were back. My recollection is a bit hazy but I think I ended up needing to hire a priest to exorcise that demon from my tank. So I bet if you try your experiment with those you will have a higher survival rate.

[monocus]

what i would like to do is take some coral from the coast(pink dendros i think) and slowly raise the temp over a year

[soapy]

what i would like to do is take some coral from the coast(pink dendros i think) and slowly raise the temp over a year

Building a system that would keep those alive would be challenge enough no?

[monocus]

tank,sump,skimmer,reactors,chiller.same as all my other tanks

[spit.fire]

what i would like to do is take some coral from the coast(pink dendros i think) and slowly raise the temp over a year

Any idea of the scientific name?

[SeaHorse_Fanatic]

Any idea of the scientific name?

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/1/corals

Here's an article on the subject if anyone wants to experiment.

[duncangweller]

I am currently utilizing your findings to kill off some stupid encrusting softie that I have in my tank that is taking over everything!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[kien]

I'm not too surprised. Don't we freeze things all the time to preserve them? Especially in the medical fields. Cryogenics anyone? :lol:

[soapy]

One of these nights those plays are going to crawl out of their tank and come sting you in your bed.

[Patwa]

This thread has got me a bit perturbed. I should have posted this as soon as I read your first post a few days back, but I was left more in disbelief than anything else, and plus, it's been a hell of a week at work and home..sigh.

I saw the reaction on RC when you posted it and I have to agree with the latter sentiments there that what you're doing lacks any remorse and is essentially careless. Nevermind the complete absence of the notion of animal husbandry in what you're doing - the central reason we're all hobbyists!

The point i'm going to make is that they're animals. They have a central nervous system - a system that tells them when there is danger and when it is safe and how to react. When you do something like intentionally harming them, they will react as any animal in that situation would. We're not talking about accidental death - we're talking about trying to kill the animal by using extreme stress (cold), compounded by time.

The mad science aspect of this is quite evident - can they survive the freeze? Good question, but i'd recommend you ask a coral researcher or dig through some marine journals if you're honestly that curious.

I dunno, maybe you have too much time on your hands....but as they say, idle hands are the devil's tool? (or however it goes). Try and find some other way to use your time...maybe try and see how you can get them to grow faster, eh?

You've been in the hobby a long time, just as I have...thus, i'm blown away that you still can't come to appreciate the fact that it is a living creature, and that what you're doing is trying to quantify how and to what extent you can end its life.

anyhoo.....Im blown away it lived that first night....but i'm not going to applaud your efforts.........I think you should stop this "experiment" asap.

:neutral:

[jorjef]

I doubt it was living the first night, the fact it was open means nothing. Was it responding/retracting if disturbed, unno and don't really care to sift through to see. As far as mad scientist goes I don't think Denny is a real threat in the big scheme of things. Alot of us scorched a few spiders with magnifying glasses.

[Patwa]

doesn't have to be a "threat" in the grand scheme of things. it's just fundamentally a wrong endeavor to take on...big or small, the ethics of killing something intentionally is not something to be taken lightly

i'd like to think you and the rest have grown up from the days of scorching spiders with magnifying glasses and calling out for mom when you fell off your bike. You're all big boys/girls now, time to make better decisions about the animals you keep.

I bet this indifference I see in this thread is a matter of people not realizing a zoanthid is an animal, yeah? amirite? the absence of a discernible face or appendages doesn't lessen its importance. But if that's the measure some of your fall back on, keep in mind: it eats and poops! :)

[reefwars]

This thread has got me a bit perturbed. I should have posted this as soon as I read your first post a few days back, but I was left more in disbelief than anything else, and plus, it's been a hell of a week at work and home..sigh.

I saw the reaction on RC when you posted it and I have to agree with the latter sentiments there that what you're doing lacks any remorse and is essentially careless. Nevermind the complete absence of the notion of animal husbandry in what you're doing - the central reason we're all hobbyists!

The point i'm going to make is that they're animals. They have a central nervous system - a system that tells them when there is danger and when it is safe and how to react. When you do something like intentionally harming them, they will react as any animal in that situation would. We're not talking about accidental death - we're talking about trying to kill the animal by using extreme stress (cold), compounded by time.

The mad science aspect of this is quite evident - can they survive the freeze? Good question, but i'd recommend you ask a coral researcher or dig through some marine journals if you're honestly that curious.

I dunno, maybe you have too much time on your hands....but as they say, idle hands are the devil's tool? (or however it goes). Try and find some other way to use your time...maybe try and see how you can get them to grow faster, eh?

You've been in the hobby a long time, just as I have...thus, i'm blown away that you still can't come to appreciate the fact that it is a living creature, and that what you're doing is trying to quantify how and to what extent you can end its life.

anyhoo.....Im blown away it lived that first night....but i'm not going to applaud your efforts.........I think you should stop this "experiment" asap.

:neutral:


theres always one i guess....anyways ill bite as i love a good debate and am in the arguing mood:P



ok so you mean to tell me that you have never swatted a fly on purpose?.......sure


how about stepped on an ant?........sure

how about pulled a handful of hair algae off the rocks?...........sure

how about removed a bristle worm or intentionlly killed pods with a filter sock or your skimmer?....sure

hell just running a skimmer is knowingly killing numerous pods on a daily basis so how is my one polyp any different from your pods? ............sure

please.....how naive can you be????:noidea:


i guess my point is if your worried about the one little animal( whos half plant btw) then your in the wrong hobby to begin with everything we do is a risk to an animal or do you disagree?

have you never lost a fish?

just adding the fish to your tank was a unnecessary risk and really YOU were the one who put the risk on this ANIMAL .....in all reality how dare YOU take a risk like that on another animal huh???

like the guy who says its a sin to kennel a dog but its ok to own one in a 5oo sq ft apartment lol

people like you i really have to laugh at , your to mighty to see what the general public does as nothing but different then what you do , yet you do the same as anyone else but see it from a different view

experiments like these could or could not change your world , doesnt matter who does the test results are results.

i have pics of polyps on a microscopic level , wev'e tested with all kinds of factors and stresses so i go beyond buying a pretty animal and hoping for the best with its life , i grow and propogate the same animal that you kill time and time again , so yes i purposely killed 4 polyps just like the guy who purposely kills off an aiptasia anemone but the dif is i didnt do it to make things pretty in my eyes i did it to better understand the animal and its limits.

the ocean is %95 unmapped......are you going to do it?






so yes i feel your pain but in fact i think your no better than me



thanks for your nickle but i have enough loose change lol


cheers

[reefwars]

doesn't have to be a "threat" in the grand scheme of things. it's just fundamentally a wrong endeavor to take on...big or small, the ethics of killing something intentionally is not something to be taken lightly

i'd like to think you and the rest have grown up from the days of scorching spiders with magnifying glasses and calling out for mom when you fell off your bike. You're all big boys/girls now, time to make better decisions about the animals you keep.

I bet this indifference I see in this thread is a matter of people not realizing a zoanthid is an animal, yeah? amirite? the absence of a discernible face or appendages doesn't lessen its importance. But if that's the measure some of your fall back on, keep in mind: it eats and poops! :)

please do talk to me about ethics lol do you not have a tank or do you?

wow.....


again get off your high horse .......your no better than anyone is in this hobby is, be it if you raise fish from fry, rescue corals or simply own a tank for viewing you are destroying and determining the faith of an animal who was better before you or me came along :P

you cant offer what the ocean can so you cant say that your fish will live a longer life in your tank than in the wild no? no because you know the life span on a fish in the wild is over ten years , you know what it is in aquariums? average 3 yrs lol so when you sell your pretty clown to a friend and he kills it its your fault isnt it i mean it was your responsibility wasnt it?

geesh

[reefwars]

I doubt it was living the first night, the fact it was open means nothing. Was it responding/retracting if disturbed, unno and don't really care to sift through to see. As far as mad scientist goes I don't think Denny is a real threat in the big scheme of things. Alot of us scorched a few spiders with magnifying glasses.



well i have one polyp left , it does have a response and will close up , this was one of the first things i checked as i assumed the polyps froze in an open way but it closes and opens

out of the 4-5 polyps i have 1 left but it is ****y i really dont think its going to make it long term though the cells were to badly damaged.

so what does all this mean?

well to say that you need to run home in an hour as the water will go cold is prob abit extreme lol

how about shipping overnight vs 3 days?

well may not give any serious insight to what corals go through during the shipping process but it gave me a better idea of what extremes a zoanthid polyp can handle ....why is this important?


knowing a corals limitations can determine things like temperature needed to kill nudibranchs for example.

useless information?

not to me.......

[reefwars]

I saw the reaction on RC when you posted it and I have to agree with the latter sentiments there that what you're doing lacks any remorse and is essentially careless.

geesh i had to go check RC to see what you meant and then realized only two other people besides you though it was wrong lol which i would have expected

so just so we are clear on this its 10 people to your 3(incuding you) who disagreed lol but yeah a big "reaction " for sure.

keep an eye out for my next experiment ok?


thanks!!

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2386267

[jorjef]

Hey Denny, lets go get a Snickers.. :biggrin:

[reefwars]

Hey Denny, lets go get a Snickers.. :biggrin:

i think we should lol its getting rough in here :mrgreen:

i guess its my fault i should have made a poll lol

[Proteus]

The mad science aspect of this is quite evident - can they survive the freeze? Good question, but i'd recommend you ask a coral researcher or dig through some marine journals if you're honestly that curious.

I would wonder how these books and papers would have been written if it wasn't for people like Denny.
The one thing that bothers me is that your personal opinion holds back inquiring minds.
He is notpulling a dredged through the reef he's not skinning rabbits alive.

[Misses.ReefWars]

Hey Denny, lets go get a Snickers.. :biggrin:

Omg....bahahaha gooder lol

[reefwars]

Omg....bahahaha gooder lol

here we go lol

[Misses.ReefWars]

here we go lol

sure sure lol

[lastlight]

denny i'd like to test one of your blue agave polyps please. i'll do this free of charge buddy =)

camera's busted though can't promise you any visual proof or evidence. this offer is time limited.

[reefwars]

denny i'd like to test one of your mohawk polyps please. i'll do this free of charge buddy =)

camera's busted though can't promise you any visual proof or evidence. this offer is time limited.

done!!

[lastlight]

haha well played.

:sad:

[reefwars]

haha well played.

:sad:

alright ill make a deal with you ill freeze it and you post the findings?:mrgreen::mrgreen:

[MitchM]

Sorry, but what was the point of this?

Please stop.

:sad:

There are proper studies being done regarding the effects of water temperature on coral.

This does not give our hobby a good name by any means.

[reefwars]

Sorry, but what was the point of this?

Please stop.

:sad:

There are proper studies being done regarding the effects of water temperature on coral.

This does not give our hobby a good name by any means.



i will send in your concerns to the caring parties for sure , thanks though:)

[reefwars]

so if i were to stick a rock outside with aiptasia on it you would you say its sad and to stop?


how about if i wanted to kill off some hydroids or get rid of a large predatory crab?

its amazing whats cool and what isnt in this hobby and how many hypocrites there are lol

who are you to sit up there and do one thing while you cast your opions downward huh?

the fact that anyone even has a tank makes your arguments void

amazing indeed lol

[reefwars]

lets see if i got it though eh?


aiptasia: not allowed life

bristle worms: not allowed life

crabs: not allowed life

caulpera : not allowed life

zoanthid polyop: allowed life

so if its pretty its a sin but if its ugly then its " ok " right?



would love to hear the reasoning behind this...... though i doubt its sound

[MitchM]

I'm going to ask that this thread be locked.
This is not the way that you or anyone else should be treating the animals in our care.

[reefwars]

haha


well i fragged a zoanthid yesterday and well one of them died ,its true i admit it...... i didnt frag it to preserve life or the reefs or to help out a person in disaster i fragged it because i wanted two instead of one just as most do and i thought hey i could sell two instead of one....


one of the two polyps died from my fragging:(

so for the one that died its a cruel experiment isnt it? but for the one that survived its saving the reef and stopping from collections etc . lol

ok .....ya sure.........



anyways like i mentioned my next experiment will be even more interesting regardless lol


stay tuned!!


cheers

[reefwars]

I'm going to ask that this thread be locked.
This is not he way that you or anyone else should be treating the animals in our care.

did you not read my last post ?


how is it any different then throwing out a rock with aiptasia?

isnt it knowingly throwing out an animal?


why should this thread be locked , the results for the poll are interesting and fairly even , so while you think hey thats sad others dont and had given an answer/vote and are interested in the findings , if you dont believe me read the RC link i posted but im guessing you didnt do that either right?


lock it if you like........ its not gonna bother me or stop me from going about my business lol


geesh

[reefwars]

putting a blowtorch....laser.....kalk.....epoxy....etc etc etc to my rock and killing all life is fine , killing a single polyp of zoanthids is wrong.

got it lol

[kien]

:pop2:

[MitchM]

Denny, you are a nice guy but you are not a scientist.
You cannot just think up a fun experiment to try out without having a basis of understanding of what you are doing.
Corals are not meant to be frozen for fun "to see what happens".

If this is what you want to do, then learn about what it is you are observing, learn about what it's limitations are and THEN, only THEN, carry out your ideas after ensuring that the coral will not be harmed by what you want to do.

These are not playthings. They are animals, just like aptasia, just like cyanobacteria, just like hydroids, just like nuisance crabs, just like flatworms, ect.

I'm not saying that all of these animals are desirable in our tanks, and I agree that to control some populations of creatures is acceptable, but to try out situations without a basic premise is just cruel.

Sorry buddy.:sad:

kien, put the popcorn away....

[jorjef]

I don't think I can bring myself to cut the grass this year.... Trim hedges !!!! Oh the carnage. I have to quit feeding the squirrels too. I'm sure I'm giving them some type of heart disease feeding store bought food. I will thou snare the stupid rabbit if he doesn't vacate by spring. Might eat him too. Top of the food chain, what a glorious place to be. Who loves Labradoodles?..

[Aquattro]

Ok, I guess I had to look.

Here's my thoughts. Experiment? Kinda dumb and pointless to me, and I don't agree with it on a "principles" basis.
However, all of Denny's points are valid. How many hobbyists introduce rocks to crabs in a very sudden time frame? Freshwater dips on bristleworms in a circular fashion? Ya, lots.
But, there really is no difference, morally speaking, in this vs. injecting acid into mojanos. Which I'm going to do this weekend.

However, this thread will get removed if the discussion of these issues isn't carried out respectfully (Denny, Jorjef, re-read that part, k? :))
People opposed to it are entitled to their opinion, as Denny is entitled to a rebuttal. But please keep it civil, mature AND respectable.

[reefwars]

I think we went off track a bit and got a bit moral lets go back to the topic :)


Without a doubt I had response from the coral the next day. I expected a slow recovery and a polyp with slow to no response time , instead I got a fast response of opening and closing but wouldn't heal not even make an attempt

The salinity spike in the thawed cup got me wondering what the ice does to ssltwater exactly like how does it mess with parameters etc

I'm going to freeze another , this time WITHOUT a polyp and test that sucker out and then top it off with ro/DI water back to proper salinity and test it again for comparison :)

[jorjef]

I think you need a faster form of freezing, no water or very little involved just straight to the freezer in the coldest location. Then toss back into the tank for a quick thaw.

[StirCrazy]

i voted late but did so be for I read down, I voted wont survive. some people were talking about this being done in the medical field all the time but it is way different, that is an instantaneous freezing and only works on certain things, mostly single cell objects. or things that are not alive, they are part of a organism but not the whole organism. but it was neat to see what would happen as fruit flys and some types of insects will survive it so there was a chance, even thought we all know how sensitive corals are to temp change.

as for the other posts, I don't know how many frags I myself and several others have put out on the back deck to cook in the sun, just cuz it was time to trim corals and no one wanted the frags.

I guess I kinda look at it the same as trimming plants in a freshwater tank, just needs to be done once and a while when you have groth rates as fast as I used to have. guess I could have went to T5 bulbs to slow it down.....

Steve

[arrowan54]

a lid to keep evaporation down to min the salinity has to be out for this reason ?

[kien]

and if you really want to boil it down, think about the MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of complex organisms we are killing each time we do a water change.. :surprise: :cry:

.. speaking of boiling..

[Coral Hoarder]

and if you really want to boil it down, think about the MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of complex organisms we are killing each time we do a water change.. :surprise: :cry:

.. speaking of boiling..
i need a"like"buton lol

the animal is not awhere of whats going on it doesnt have a brain !

[Aquattro]

Any post here insinuating people opposed to this are "whiners" will be removed. Discuss results, discuss morality, but discuss it as adults.

[MitchM]

I don't see any crying or whining, but I do see a lack of respect for life.
Some of us look at all the life in our tanks as an equal part of a complete ecosystem.

Imagine the uproar if Denny decided to freeze a nuisance fish - maybe an angelfish was nipping at some SPS - under some vague premise of extending shipping times or something.
It's one thing to control pests. It's another to "try out" random experiments to see how far you can push them until they die, then post it on a public forum.
It only encourages others to try more "experiments"

Denny represents a vendor here as well. I expect better.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine.

(this was posted just as Brad removed who I was responding to...)

[Slyguy00]

I think you expect way to much. And since my previous post was deleted I will state I fully support what denny is doing and disagree with the last statement. Better Brad????

[kien]

Indeed, if you are going to wade into this hotly debated and discussed topic you need to be willing to respect other people's opinions. And certainly refrain from name calling, even if Denny is a poo poo head.

[Slyguy00]

Lol i never directly insulted anybody. Just seems like certain people are making a big deal out of things people do in this hobby daily. Including the people who are opposed to this. Don't get me wrong I don't think killing things for fun is cool at all, but this hardly qualifies as that. Either way entertaining none the less:pop2:

[MitchM]

Slyguy,
This hobby is being put under more and more scrutiny all the time.
Do you really want to give the people trying to stop or restrict it more ammunition?

[Slyguy00]

Very true Mitch I agree with you 100% on that. But I really don't think experimenting with a few zoas is really hurting anything. But I do understand where you are coming from.

[MitchM]

Great, and I'm not trying to save the world, one zoa at a time either.
This is a public forum though so one should expect public reaction.

[Slyguy00]

Hey absolutely. I wasn't trying to come out guns blazing lol. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and for the most part I totally agree with you. I just happen to think this particular argument isn't a big deal. But obviously we are gonna hear arguments from both sides of the spectrum. Thats what makes these forums fun. I love heated topics :mrgreen:

[reefwars]

ok everyone calm down a notch or two lol

wow you folks sure know how to derail a thread fast i stepped out for lunch and missed apparently alot lol :mrgreen:

anyways though lets keep the off topic comments to your selves or start your own thread about it as this is about an experiment if you dont like it then move on theres not much you can do about it anyways and the experimnent already happened ;)

i think its safe to say if you have nothing positive to add to the findings or such then move on please instead of posting things to try and get a thread locked that doesnt need to be locked for this kind of behavior:)

ty

[reefwars]

even if Denny is a poo poo head.



ill let you have that one lol:P:P:P:P

[reefwars]

Discuss results, discuss morality, but discuss it as adults.


agreed i think its a good debate so lets keep it civil:)