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Aquattro
10-02-2013, 05:16 PM
It seems more and more people are coming out of the lighting closet. Who else is ditching their LEDs for other options??

thmh
10-02-2013, 05:20 PM
Led+T5 all the way!

~Tony

Aquattro
10-02-2013, 05:21 PM
Led+T5 all the way!

~Tony

So not ditching LED then? :)

Aquattro
10-02-2013, 05:22 PM
Although, if I can figure out how to run a controllable blue LED strip down the center of my fixture, I will add that for dawn/dusk effect

reefwars
10-02-2013, 05:24 PM
using t5's but am looking at the new ati hybrid for my next fixture, just dont think all leds is the way to go , good for color options but im about growth and color so for now im out:)

sorry led guys!!

Aquattro
10-02-2013, 05:26 PM
good for color options but im about growth and color so for now im out:)

sorry led guys!!

Agreed. LED are ok, but I'm looking for more than ok. So far the T5 are giving me that.

Proteus
10-02-2013, 05:29 PM
I'm in wonder if Kien will share some popcorn

thmh
10-02-2013, 05:30 PM
So not ditching LED then? :)

I went from running 100% led and found out that I can't achieve the colourations that I saw from other reefers so I added in T5s because it seems to be working for everyone else! Woam I got the colourations I wanted and still have growth and pop from led. Can't go back to 100% led unless new technology comes out for them proving they can achieve colouration from mh or t5.

~Tony

lastlight
10-02-2013, 05:31 PM
LEDs are the only solution to my main floor heat issues. Otherwise I'd still be flogging the the LWL badge.

mrhasan
10-02-2013, 05:32 PM
I ditched LED a long time ago. Oh wait, I never even tried it. And probably won't try it till halides and T5s are taken off from their market for being awesome!

Hybrids are a whole different story. It is T5 but uses LED for something what it can only do properly right now: light effects. :lol:

kien
10-02-2013, 05:41 PM
Although, if I can figure out how to run a controllable blue LED strip down the center of my fixture, I will add that for dawn/dusk effect

It sounds like you're looking for one of these (http://www.atiaquaristik.com/en/led-t5-hybrid). Problem solved. Thank me later!

kien
10-02-2013, 05:41 PM
I'm in wonder if Kien will share some popcorn

LEDs can't pop the popcorn! :pop2:

Proteus
10-02-2013, 05:52 PM
That hybrid has a crazy price tag too

reefwars
10-02-2013, 05:54 PM
That hybrid has a crazy price tag too

it does but anything ati i find a bit high in price:)

Magickiwi
10-02-2013, 05:57 PM
MH/T5 combo all the way baby. I can't feature paying 5x as much for a fixture that is almost as good as MH.

Even if you have to buy a chiller you're still looking at a cheaper option than LED...

Aquattro
10-02-2013, 06:15 PM
Even if you have to buy a chiller you're still looking at a cheaper option than LED...

I still had to run my chiller even with LED, so no savings there

Proteus
10-02-2013, 06:18 PM
I've decided to continue with LEDs in my mp10 controllers as I can't find a small enough halide bulb to fit ;)

Magickiwi
10-02-2013, 06:20 PM
I still had to run my chiller even with LED, so no savings there

That's probably 50% of the selling features for LED is that it runs so much cooler. If you have to buy a chiller anyway then what is the point?

Proteus
10-02-2013, 06:21 PM
That's probably 50% of the selling features for LED is that it runs so much cooler. If you have to buy a chiller anyway then what is the point?

Humidity....

kien
10-02-2013, 06:28 PM
I still had to run my chiller even with LED, so no savings there

This is what I observed over the summer as well. Not on my tank, obviously but lots of reports of people having to battle heat during this past summer, even with LEDs. It makes sense really. If your house is 30 degrees, well, your house is 30 degrees and LEDs aren't going to solve that problem.

paddyob
10-02-2013, 06:28 PM
My teklight T5 was the best lighting I ever had. That being said, it's hard to drop $200 on 6 lights after about 6-8 months.

It's a huge flaw unless you are loaded or don't care about how you spend money.

The D120 LEDs I have are great. My RBTA even bubbles now.

And as another mentioned, I needed to control the heat. These literally run cold. I never feel any heat dissipating from them.

I would never drop for radions or the like, as I feel they are a tip
Off with gimmicks. Like lighting. Weee. *insert sarcasm*


I'm happy I switched, even with the knowledge that my T5 lights grew everything. Super well.

Cost of bulbs was my deciding factor.

mrhasan
10-02-2013, 06:33 PM
That's probably 50% of the selling features for LED is that it runs so much cooler. If you have to buy a chiller anyway then what is the point?

Try touching the heatsink; I dare you ;)

The thing is, both LEDs and MH "runs" hot but MH "dissipates" heat (and light) omnidirectionally (since its a round bulb) and cannot be fitted with heat sink to take away the heat. On the other hand, LEDs dissipates heat bidirectionally but emits light unidirectionally and so can be fitted with heat sink on the opposite side with heat sink to take away the heat. And hence the "runs cooler" market hype :razz: If some sort of technology comes which allows MH to be fitted with heat, that market tag line is going to be buried.

kien
10-02-2013, 06:34 PM
That's probably 50% of the selling features for LED is that it runs so much cooler. If you have to buy a chiller anyway then what is the point?

I'm not sure if I'd say it's 50%, but definitely high on the 'pros' list for LEDs. To me a greater benefit to switching to LEDs would be the elimination of the need to replace bulbs. That would be #1 on my LEDs 'pro' column. To me, neither energy savings nor heat savings is much of a factor. During a heat wave my house is still going to get super hot. During the winter my house is still going to get super cold during the day, which will results in my heaters kicking in more often. Today I rely on my halides to warm up my tank during the cold winter days :lol: I haven't done the calculations but it's probably cost neutral or cheaper to use the halides as heaters.

Another huge benefit that people see with LEDs would be their controllability. A lot of people love being able to program their LEDs to the exact specs that they want. This isn't really a selling feature for me either though. I'm okay with lights ON and lights OFF.

kien
10-02-2013, 06:38 PM
At the end of the day LEDs have a lot of benefits that can be realized by the hobbyist. It's up to the hobbyist to decide if those truly are benefits to them are not. A benefit to one hobbyist might not be a benefit to someone else.

paddyob
10-02-2013, 06:41 PM
At the end of the day LEDs have a lot of benefits that can be realized by the hobbyist. It's up to the hobbyist to decide if those truly are benefits to them are not. A benefit to one hobbyist might not be a benefit to someone else.

+1

lastlight
10-02-2013, 06:52 PM
2010 called and wants its thread back.

I do miss 2010 tho!

kien
10-02-2013, 06:57 PM
2010 called and wants its thread back.

I do miss 2010 tho!

These threads are fun. It's pretty much the only thing worth talking about in reefing these days. Or those days too. And probably days to come.

Reef Pilot
10-02-2013, 07:09 PM
Can't believe all the LED haters!!! Did they buy the wrong LED's, or use the wrong program/mode, or wrong intensity for their tank? Or maybe the the LED's are a good excuse for other problems in their tank?

I had T5's before, and you couldn't pay me enough to ditch my Radion LED's (have both Gen 1 and 2). I am very happy with the fast growth and colour of my SPS. And not to mention all the other benefits, including economic with the low power, low heat and not having to keep replacing bulbs.

Well, at the least should be lots of cheap used LEDs available in the next little while. Then next year, they will be switching back to LEDs...

But hey, what do I know... I am still a neophyte reef keeper.

reefwars
10-02-2013, 07:15 PM
Can't believe all the LED haters!!! Did they buy the wrong LED's, or use the wrong program/mode, or wrong intensity for their tank? Or maybe the the LED's are a good excuse for other problems in their tank?

I had T5's before, and you couldn't pay me enough to ditch my Radion LED's (have both Gen 1 and 2). I am very happy with the fast growth and colour of my SPS. And not to mention all the other benefits, including economic with the low power, low heat and not having to keep replacing bulbs.

Well, at the least should be lots of cheap used LEDs available in the next little while. Then next year, they will be switching back to LEDs...

But hey, what do I know... I am still a neophyte reef keeper.

denial....denial:)

wickedfrags
10-02-2013, 07:16 PM
I ran 110W VHO from 1999-2001

I ran 400W radiums from 2001-2008 with VHO supplements

I ran T5's from 2009-2010

I purchased T5s for my last aquarium as my goals had changed......I used them for one month after seeing a Vertex Illumina in person then sold the fixture.

Today, for a mixed reef I would go LED, for an SPS tank I would go with 400W 20k halides with VHO supplements, or perhaps LED supplements as a second choice.

ScubaSteve
10-02-2013, 07:17 PM
These threads are fun. It's pretty much the only thing worth talking about in reefing these days. Or those days too. And probably days to come.

Hahahaha. Well this and whether that Such'n'such paly is indeed a true Tyree. Without these topis most of the forums wouldn't exist and we'd have nothing to bicker about :razz:


I'm starting to wish I had the best of both worlds. I love the flat look of T5s for the evening/actinics, I love how LEDs make colours pop (in particular the royal blue and true violet's for actinic) but I love, love, love my metal halide for daytime colour. I have all of the above on my tanks (MH + T5 on one, LED on the other).

For the small tank I'm loving the LED because there is no other way of generating that much light in a small package without cooking the tank, so I say that LED wins for nano tanks hands down. The fact that I am growing SPS in my nano without any filtration as fast (maybe even faster) than my big tank with equally good coloration has me as a firm believer. That said, I find the light at high noon just lacks the same oomph that my halide has.

On the big tank the MH is a rocks star. It just looks awesome. You get great shimmer lines (without the disco effect that LEDs give you), so the tank tends to look more lively and natural. I find T5 look a little flat as a main lighting option. I have a chiller on the big tank, so I really don't give a hoot about the heat really - tank stays a rock solid 79F right through the hotest days of summer (I've actually had more heat issues with the nano). However, at night time I look at the big tank and then look at the nano and sigh when I see colours exploding out of the nano like someone sent Hunter S. Thompson on an acid trip with a backpack full of fireworks and neon paint.

So what I'm now thinking might happen is that I'm going to try a DIY replacement for the T5s on my halide fixture and put in a mix of RB, TV and RGB.

lastlight
10-02-2013, 07:42 PM
yeah halides for daytime colour. I love those royal blues in the evening but i'm sorta missing my radiums during the day...

i'll be using my mitras until it eventually dies though. too much invested. i do still like it but there's something so fantastic about the light a halide throws.

down the road perhaps i'll choose to spend more on ac or a chiller instead of another LED replacement. That will depend on whether you can find halide bulbs 5 or 10 years down the road.

kien
10-02-2013, 08:04 PM
The current ReefKeeping tank of the month (http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/137-tank-of-the-month) is running strictly LEDs, I believe ? It's a nice tank. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Dearth
10-02-2013, 08:09 PM
If I could afford it I would get LEDs I love the colourization and types of lighting available and can bring out the colours a lot better than MH and most T5s but for what I want the cost is still outside my price range so for now stuck with T5 lighting.

paddyob
10-02-2013, 08:42 PM
If I could afford it I would get LEDs I love the colourization and types of lighting available and can bring out the colours a lot better than MH and most T5s but for what I want the cost is still outside my price range so for now stuck with T5 lighting.

Ever grow D120. $180/each. I have two running over my 4'. Google them. Read results. I found zero reasons not to buy them.

Radions are a rich mans pleasure.

mrhasan
10-02-2013, 08:44 PM
Ever grow D120. $180/each. I have two running over my 4'. Google them. Read results. I found zero reasons not to buy them.

Radions are a rich mans pleasure.

I agree. Apparently, the cheap LEDs seems to have much lesser complains than the more expensive ones, particularly radions.

Seriak
10-02-2013, 08:52 PM
Can't believe all the LED haters!!! Did they buy the wrong LED's, or use the wrong program/mode, or wrong intensity for their tank? Or maybe the the LED's are a good excuse for other problems in their tank?

I had T5's before, and you couldn't pay me enough to ditch my Radion LED's (have both Gen 1 and 2). I am very happy with the fast growth and colour of my SPS. And not to mention all the other benefits, including economic with the low power, low heat and not having to keep replacing bulbs.

Well, at the least should be lots of cheap used LEDs available in the next little while. Then next year, they will be switching back to LEDs...

But hey, what do I know... I am still a neophyte reef keeper.

+1

jorjef
10-02-2013, 09:00 PM
I agree. Apparently, the cheap LEDs seems to have much lesser complains than the more expensive ones, particularly radions.


I would take that with a grain of salt. A person would be less likely to complain about a problem with a low end light vs. one they just paid big bucks for. If an owner of a ebay special light pukes out I would think the "oh well it was cheap" mentality would come into play.

Reef Pilot
10-02-2013, 09:04 PM
Radions are a rich mans pleasure.

Huh?? Did you add up what T5s and MH's cost over 5 years? Be sure to include your power, cooling and bulb replacement costs.

Radions have come way down in price, and I expect will be even a lot cheaper in the next year. Competition will ensure that.

Personally, I would not go for the more expensive pro model. I have the cheaper gen 2's, and they have everything and more than I need in an LED light.

What I really like is the Natural Mode with the depth setting which simulates the sun path intensity and colour through the day. It has certainly worked well with my SPS.

paddyob
10-02-2013, 09:32 PM
Huh?? Did you add up what T5s and MH's cost over 5 years? Be sure to include your power, cooling and bulb replacement costs.

Radions have come way down in price, and I expect will be even a lot cheaper in the next year. Competition will ensure that.




Read everything. Not just one line. It will make more sense. And I made zero reference to MH or the comparison to 5 years.

You seem to have missed some things.

I paid $380 for two fixtures. So for me to outfit my 4'... Over a grand. Clear?

brizzo
10-02-2013, 09:37 PM
For the small tank I'm loving the LED because there is no other way of generating that much light in a small package without cooking the tank, so I say that LED wins for nano tanks hands down. The fact that I am growing SPS in my nano without any filtration as fast (maybe even faster) than my big tank with equally good coloration has me as a firm believer. That said, I find the light at high noon just lacks the same oomph that my halide has.

On the big tank the MH is a rocks star. It just looks awesome. You get great shimmer lines (without the disco effect that LEDs give you), so the tank tends to look more lively and natural. I find T5 look a little flat as a main lighting option.

So what I'm now thinking might happen is that I'm going to try a DIY replacement for the T5s on my halide fixture and put in a mix of RB, TV and RGB.

I couldn't agree more with this post.

Recently switched from 150w mh, to a diy setup with 12 blue 12 white (xt-e/xp-g). I've been very happy with the color, intensity, and dimming.

That being said, it's perfect for a tank my size. SPS has been growing nicely since the switch, and some new colors have come out. I think it's hard to compare different LED systems because they come in so many flavors, but I think there is something to be said about how my leds are maybe 2 inches above the water... (no coverage issues)

If I had a bigger tank (when), I wouldn't second guess building with mh + led combo

SeaHorse_Fanatic
10-02-2013, 11:01 PM
I love my LEDs and would not go back. At my most insane, was running 3x250w DE & 6x150w DE, but these were each drawing a bit more so over 2000 watts of power and it was so hot in the summer from the lights that I had to run a 12000 btu AC and/or switch to reverse photoperiod.

This summer, probably the hottest and sunniest in Greater Vancouver since I've lived here (since the 70s), never once had heat issues or had to reverse my photoperiod or setup my AC.

My 165g main tank went from drawing roughly 600w in halide alone, to 280w max (12 x 10w Blues - 6@454nm & 6@445nm) (16 x 10w Whites - mix of 6500k; 10000k & 20000k)

My 2' cube went from 150w halide to 50w LED (3x10w blues and 2x10w whites) same mix as with the main tank lights.

The RSM 34g currently has an Eshine 60w Cree

StirCrazy
10-03-2013, 12:39 AM
I still had to run my chiller even with LED, so no savings there


you do know, you need MH lights on a reef. :wink:

H2o2
10-03-2013, 12:51 AM
I am in the starting stage of a new tank setup so I have been adding fish and corals for about 8 months . I have the 60" sunbrite V2 which I love the iphone programing + 60" of vertex Illumilux Marino blue for dawn and dusk and pop because they pop but I find myself right now in the process of adding 4 54w T5s just because my corals are just not there like they used to be in my old tank with the MH and T5s especially the purples , I now different tank but I want to try it and see , so the 100 $ every 6 months + power and heat (still have my chiller ) I will have to deal with but I have to try

Aquattro
10-03-2013, 03:59 AM
you do know, you need MH lights on a reef. :wink:

I know that, and I would if I had a better way to vent the humidity. But the T5 should be an acceptable compromise. :)

gregzz4
10-03-2013, 04:02 AM
Although, if I can figure out how to run a controllable blue LED strip down the center of my fixture, I will add that for dawn/dusk effect
Does it need to be 'controlled', or just 'on and off' ?

StirCrazy
10-03-2013, 04:07 AM
I know that, and I would if I had a better way to vent the humidity. But the T5 should be an acceptable compromise. :)

ya but you know T5's are good for nothing but accent lighting..

Steve

waynemah
10-03-2013, 04:33 AM
ya but you know T5's are good for nothing but accent lighting..

Steve

I really hope I'm missing the inside joke here. :sad:

Delphinus
10-03-2013, 04:38 AM
Of all the lighting I tried I really liked the Radium 400's the best.

The LED's I have right now are OK, it's kinda neat to see clouds pass over the reef and have a few more dusk/dawn effects and so on but the tank just isn't the thermonuclear bright reef that it used to be.

I'd have stayed with Radiums if it hadn't gotten harder to source them.

I think of all the times I went to Concept and asked for Radiums then they would say "Ya' we have Radions". "No, Radiums." "Ya! Radions!" It was like a bad who's on first skit.

Aquattro
10-03-2013, 04:40 AM
Does it need to be 'controlled', or just 'on and off' ?
Ideally controlled via Apex

kien
10-03-2013, 04:53 AM
The LED's I have right now are OK

Whoa, hold the phone! I had no idea you switched to LEDs! What did you end up hanging over the tank?

gregzz4
10-03-2013, 04:58 AM
Ideally controlled via Apex
Sooo then, they have to be dimmable ?

I could give you numerous links to waterproof led strips in the 460-470nm range if you're only looking for 'on/off'

Aquattro
10-03-2013, 05:16 AM
Sooo then, they have to be dimmable ?

I could give you numerous links to waterproof led strips in the 460-470nm range if you're only looking for 'on/off'

dimmable, yes. It's the one feature I'll miss with T5s

Aquattro
10-03-2013, 05:17 AM
I really hope I'm missing the inside joke here. :sad:

Yes, Steve and I used to battle over this all the time :)

Delphinus
10-03-2013, 05:18 AM
Whoa, hold the phone! I had no idea you switched to LEDs! What did you end up hanging over the tank?

In a weak moment of not being able to order Radiums, a couple used Mitras came up on the market. :redface:

gregzz4
10-03-2013, 05:22 AM
dimmable, yes. It's the one feature I'll miss with T5s
You can buy dimmable T5 ballasts ... 1-10v

I can't help you with the day/dusk LEDs if you want them dimmable

gregzz4
10-03-2013, 05:33 AM
OK, I'm dyin' here to post them for someone, so, here's some LED strips you can add to your fixture for blues/actinics
All are close to or between 460nm to 470nm and are waterproof strips that you cut to length and add your own power supply

http://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/side-emitting/wflb-x96-series-96-led-waterproof-flexible-light-bar/123/

http://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/side-emitting/wflb-xx-series-waterproof-led-flexible-light-bar/48/

http://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/top-emitting/se-wfls-x60-series-60-high-power-led-waterproof-flexible-light-strip/103/

http://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/side-emitting/swfls-x60-series-60-side-emitting-led-waterproof-flexible-light-strip/102/

Jaws
10-03-2013, 07:08 AM
I have a question: For those that are considering doing a T5/LED combo light, what combo do you think is the right combo? Since most LED fixtures are primarily Royal Blues and Whites, what's the ideal T5 additions in your opinions?

typezero
10-03-2013, 07:19 AM
I have a question: For those that are considering doing a T5/LED combo light, what combo do you think is the right combo? Since most LED fixtures are primarily Royal Blues and Whites, what's the ideal T5 additions in your opinions?

With my ATi hybrid, I added 3 blue plus, and 1 coral plus bulb. Blue LEDs are very blue but the spectrum they emit are very narrow so a florescent blue bulb would cover more spectrum's that may or may not be important for coral coloration.

My take on LEDs is why are companies keep upgrading their white LEDs and keep developing them. Most tanks out there cant run their whites 100% without burning corals, I would like them to concentrate development more on blue/royal blue/ any beneficial colours. I run all my blues 100%, even back in the SOL days with 40 degree optics they did not burn anything, but then ramp up 2% whites I start to see paleness.

typezero
10-03-2013, 07:26 AM
I would take that with a grain of salt. A person would be less likely to complain about a problem with a low end light vs. one they just paid big bucks for. If an owner of a ebay special light pukes out I would think the "oh well it was cheap" mentality would come into play.

With MJCs frag tanks, all lit with LED + T5, we find the tank with CREE brand LEDs + T5 get more intense coloration than our Bridgelux brand LEDs + T5s. The difference is subtle to dramatic depending on the coral, also the colouration of CREEs are nicer than their Bridgelux counterpart IMO.

thmh
10-03-2013, 02:36 PM
I really hope I'm missing the inside joke here. :sad:

One of the best tank I've seen is running 8 bulb ati, you have nothing to worry about Wayne. It's all about bulb combination.

~Tony

waynemah
10-03-2013, 04:06 PM
One of the best tank I've seen is running 8 bulb ati, you have nothing to worry about Wayne. It's all about bulb combination.

~Tony

For now I'm going 3 Blue+, 3 Aquablue Special and 2 Purple+. Worst case scenario is I kill everything and start over (love watching frags turn into colonies).

lastlight
10-03-2013, 04:07 PM
One of the best tank I've seen is running 8 bulb ati, you have nothing to worry about Wayne. It's all about bulb combination.

~Tony

and prayers!

thmh
10-03-2013, 04:09 PM
For now I'm going 3 Blue+, 3 Aquablue Special and 2 Purple+. Worst case scenario is I kill everything and start over (love watching frags turn into colonies).

I would do 4 blue +, 2 coral+ and 2 purple +.

~Tony

kien
10-03-2013, 04:10 PM
Worst case scenario is I kill everything and start over (love watching frags turn into colonies).

I like your attitude :biggrin:

Are you new to T5s? I don't recall hearing anyone say they bleached their corals from T5s. T5 light is so uniform, enveloping and smooth. It doesn't blast out light like LEDs and halides. The only sucky thing is having to replace all those bulbs. Some people replace T5s every 6 months :surprise:

kien
10-03-2013, 04:11 PM
and prayers!

+ brazillion!

LoJack
10-03-2013, 04:23 PM
One of the best tank I've seen is running 8 bulb ati, you have nothing to worry about Wayne. It's all about bulb combination.

~Tony

Glad you think I have one of the nicest tanks ever ... Just Kidding lol

But seriously, this is the same reason I bought the ATI 8 Bulb. The nicest tank I've ever seen is the July 2010 TOTM on ReefCentral by Lunar

He runs a 10 bulb powermodule, but I bought the 8 bulb Sunpower because thats what I had room for.

And with active cooling, bulbs are good for a year with the ATI fixtures as opposed to 6-8 months with most others.

I love T-5 ... I won't change as long as it's available.

kien
10-03-2013, 04:36 PM
Glad you think I have one of the nicest tanks ever ... Just Kidding lol

But seriously, this is the same reason I bought the ATI 8 Bulb. The nicest tank I've ever seen is the July 2010 TOTM on ReefCentral by Lunar

He runs a 10 bulb powermodule, but I bought the 8 bulb Sunpower because thats what I had room for.

And with active cooling, bulbs are good for a year with the ATI fixtures as opposed to 6-8 months with most others.

I love T-5 ... I won't change as long as it's available.

We've had a few TOTMs on here that ran T5s as well. Lobsterboy's (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=61752) and Fishytime's (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50034) tanks just to name a couple. Both of those tanks definitely inspired me when I was but a reef padawan back in the day. T5s rock!

Coralgurl
10-03-2013, 07:24 PM
Interesting thread, has me thinking. I ran a 2 bulb T5 unit and supplemented with LEDs. I had amazing coral growth with this combo, great colors (no sps), to the point that my corals were too big for the tank. I moved to Radions on my 180 and have lost every single one of my first three corals. Not to bleaching or anything, not exactly sure why they died. some corals have done amazingly well, others, not so much. I do know I am not seeing the same success on the 180 to what I saw in the 55. Is it lights, is it maintenance, not sure, but definitely something to think about.

lastlight
10-03-2013, 08:10 PM
http://www.fishbrains.net/images/93/leds_suck.jpg

Madreefer
10-03-2013, 08:16 PM
Try touching the heatsink; I dare you ;)

The thing is, both LEDs and MH "runs" hot but MH "dissipates" heat (and light) omnidirectionally (since its a round bulb) and cannot be fitted with heat sink to take away the heat. On the other hand, LEDs dissipates heat bidirectionally but emits light unidirectionally and so can be fitted with heat sink on the opposite side with heat sink to take away the heat. And hence the "runs cooler" market hype :razz: If some sort of technology comes which allows MH to be fitted with heat, that market tag line is going to be buried.

They are not hot at all. Even after running at 100% for hours. I have fixtures with built in fans and other ones without them.

mrhasan
10-03-2013, 08:20 PM
They are not hot at all. Even after running at 100% for hours. I have fixtures with built in fans and other ones without them.

Heat sinks are meant to be hot. They taken the heat from the LEDs and dissipate them to the air but not at a rate which makes it run cool (heatsinks have a maximum heat capacity and stays below that or else the heat sink is not the right one for the system). Don't know why yours run cool :neutral: Probably you are using oversized heat sink?

sphelps
10-03-2013, 08:31 PM
Heat sinks are meant to be hot. They taken the heat from the LEDs and dissipate them to the air but not at a rate which makes it run cool (heatsinks have a maximum heat capacity and stays below that or else the heat sink is not the right one for the system). Don't know why yours run cool :neutral: Probably you are using oversized heat sink?

Ahhh..... wrong :lol:

LEDs produce a large amount of heat per area which can seem high because of there size but overall is very little. The junction temperature (between LED and heat sink) needs to be kept relatively cool to insure the LEDs don't overheat, in order to do this the heat sink has to be large enough and kept cool enough to maintain allowable LED temperatures. The cooler the heatsink the better the LEDs work and the longer they last. Most heat sinks probably run around 25-30C.

mrhasan
10-03-2013, 08:35 PM
Ahhh..... wrong :lol:

LEDs produce a large amount of heat per area which can seem high because of there size but overall is very little. The junction temperature (between LED and heat sink) needs to be kept relatively cool to insure the LEDs don't overheat, in order to do this the heat sink has to be large enough and kept cool enough to maintain allowable LED temperatures. The cooler the heatsink the better the LEDs work and the longer they last. Most heat sinks probably run around 25C.

Is the number that low? I remember burning myself by touching the heatsink of a DC PSU. I am sure the heat sink doesn't run boiling hot but still 25 is much more lower than what I thought (my guess was around 50-60 :razz:)

Madreefer
10-03-2013, 08:37 PM
Heat sinks are meant to be hot. They taken the heat from the LEDs and dissipate them to the air but not at a rate which makes it run cool (heatsinks have a maximum heat capacity and stays below that or else the heat sink is not the right one for the system). Don't know why yours run cool :neutral: Probably you are using oversized heat sink?

No just what my fixtures come with.
I've had or still own: Sol Blues, Sol Hydras, Zetlight and Ecoexotic Panorama Pros.
I know how heat sinks work so no explanation needed. Speaking from actual experience rather than something i've read.:biggrin:

sphelps
10-03-2013, 08:48 PM
Is the number that low? I remember burning myself by touching the heatsink of a DC PSU. I am sure the heat sink doesn't run boiling hot but still 25 is much more lower than what I thought (my guess was around 50-60 :razz:)

Obviously the operating temperature will vary for different devices, not sure why you would compare LED temperatures requirements to that of a power supply.

mrhasan
10-03-2013, 09:02 PM
No just what my fixtures come with.
I've had or still own: Sol Blues, Sol Hydras, Zetlight and Ecoexotic Panorama Pros.
I know how heat sinks work so no explanation needed. Speaking from actual experience rather than something i've read.:biggrin:

:lol: I previously used to get "flamed" for not explaining my thoughts properly so I take the time :mrgreen: :redface:

Obviously the operating temperature will vary for different devices, not sure why you would compare LED temperatures requirements to that of a power supply.

I didn't touch any led's heat sink yet but I thought.....you know....hey...heat sinks...:razz::redface:

kien
10-03-2013, 09:17 PM
Forget the heat sinks! Steve, tell us what you think about the hybrid LED+T5 fixtures.

sphelps
10-03-2013, 09:22 PM
Forget the heat sinks! Steve, tell us what you think about the hybrid LED+T5 fixtures.

no comment

kien
10-03-2013, 09:24 PM
no comment

WHUT?! Oh come on. Don't hold back now.

sphelps
10-04-2013, 01:27 AM
To me T5 only tanks look great in pictures but washed out in person. While the camera loves the uniform light distribution my eyes prefer the shadows and contrast created by other options. T5 and LED combinations offer a solution that makes sense in some ways but contradict most of the advantages I've come to appreciate with LEDs. Mixing T5s with LEDs introduces these problems to a fixture which was originally sold based on the fact they didn't have such problems. Then there's the control aspect that T5s just don't compare to. Yes you can dim T5s but it doesn't make it a good idea, dimming florescent bulbs is not the same as dimming LEDs and it never will be, if you've done this before you know.

I'd say for a budget on off style fixture a T5/LED is a decent option for those who prefer a more uniform light coverage with some added shimmer. Something more related to a direct replacement for a MH/T5 fixture with lower heat and electricity requirements. However for a higher end fixture it's not something I would recommend, a mitra looks pretty close to a 250W+T5 combo without any of the drawbacks, IMO it's looks even better.

That said this hobby is, for the most part, expensive and time consuming so do whatever you can justify and keeps you motivated. But for the love of god just do it already :razz:. If you hate LEDs then run Halides, T5s or whatever, don't cry about spending thousands on LEDs because you had to. Electricity isn't that expensive, even with chillers and typically HRV units cost less than $1000 and are easy to install in most applications. LEDs won't always solve your heat, power consumption or humidity problems, usually they just reduce it. Payback periods are long if you can even make it without changing something. So run LEDs if you like them and something else if you don't, justify your decision solely on your personal preference.

Aquattro
10-04-2013, 02:43 AM
That said this hobby is, for the most part, expensive and time consuming so do whatever you can justify and keeps you motivated. But for the love of god just do it already :razz:. If you hate LEDs then run Halides, T5s or whatever, don't cry about spending thousands on LEDs because you had to. Electricity isn't that expensive, even with chillers and typically HRV units cost less than $1000 and are easy to install in most applications. LEDs won't always solve your heat, power consumption or humidity problems, usually they just reduce it. Payback periods are long if you can even make it without changing something. So run LEDs if you like them and something else if you don't, justify your decision solely on your personal preference.

That pretty much covers it :)

kien
10-04-2013, 02:46 AM
And, that's a wrap. Thanks for coming out everyone. Hope everyone had a good time! Mod please close.

mrhasan
10-04-2013, 02:47 AM
That pretty much covers it :)

+1 :mrgreen:

mike31154
10-04-2013, 03:14 AM
No no, now just hold on a minute. One more thing. If you're currently using Halides or T5s (or considering ditching LEDs), consider this.... in a few years you'll more than likely have a hard time finding replacement bulbs/tubes & if you do, they'll be very costly, especially the ones specific to our hobby. There's going to be a period of time where halides & T5s are going to be dirt cheap because all the distributors will want to purge their stock. In time, LEDs will take over. You read it here first.

Aquattro
10-04-2013, 03:19 AM
No no, now just hold on a minute. One more thing. If you're currently using Halides or T5s (or considering ditching LEDs), consider this.... in a few years you'll more than likely have a hard time finding replacement bulbs/tubes & if you do, they'll be very costly, especially the ones specific to our hobby. There's going to be a period of time where halides & T5s are going to be dirt cheap because all the distributors will want to purge their stock. In time, LEDs will take over. You read it here first.

So after I sell my LEDs, I buy enough bulbs for the next 5 years. But honestly, T5 is hugely popular and I can't see them vanishing in the next 20 years. But I only need 5 :)

brotherd
10-04-2013, 04:09 AM
To me T5 only tanks look great in pictures but washed out in person. While the camera loves the uniform light distribution my eyes prefer the shadows and contrast created by other options. T5 and LED combinations offer a solution that makes sense in some ways but contradict most of the advantages I've come to appreciate with LEDs. Mixing T5s with LEDs introduces these problems to a fixture which was originally sold based on the fact they didn't have such problems. Then there's the control aspect that T5s just don't compare to. Yes you can dim T5s but it doesn't make it a good idea, dimming florescent bulbs is not the same as dimming LEDs and it never will be, if you've done this before you know.

I'd say for a budget on off style fixture a T5/LED is a decent option for those who prefer a more uniform light coverage with some added shimmer. Something more related to a direct replacement for a MH/T5 fixture with lower heat and electricity requirements. However for a higher end fixture it's not something I would recommend, a mitra looks pretty close to a 250W+T5 combo without any of the drawbacks, IMO it's looks even better.

That said this hobby is, for the most part, expensive and time consuming so do whatever you can justify and keeps you motivated. But for the love of god just do it already :razz:. If you hate LEDs then run Halides, T5s or whatever, don't cry about spending thousands on LEDs because you had to. Electricity isn't that expensive, even with chillers and typically HRV units cost less than $1000 and are easy to install in most applications. LEDs won't always solve your heat, power consumption or humidity problems, usually they just reduce it. Payback periods are long if you can even make it without changing something. So run LEDs if you like them and something else if you don't, justify your decision solely on your personal preference.

Well said. What motivates me most is getting the result that I want from a light . While I'm still a newbie to reefing, so far I like the results I'm getting from led's. I have not tried mh or t5. Yet.

wayner
10-04-2013, 04:15 AM
mike31154;849315 in a few years you'll more than likely have a hard time finding replacement bulbs/tubes & if you do, they'll be very costly, especially the ones specific to our hobby. There's going to be a period of time where halides & T5s are going to be dirt cheap because all the distributors will want to purge their stock. In time, LEDs will take over. You read it here first.[/quote]


Well, when that time comes, I'll probably pick up a Mitras for 200 bucks

Magickiwi
10-04-2013, 04:54 AM
[QUOTE=mike31154;849315].... in a few years you'll more than likely have a hard time finding replacement bulbs/tubes & if you do, they'll be very costly, especially the ones specific to our hobby. /QUOTE]

You mean like $110/bulb?

kien
10-04-2013, 05:45 AM
http://www.fishbrains.net/images/93/leds_suck.jpg

Huh. Apparently someone forgot to tell this guy (http://www.canreef.com/ftotm/sep13/index.php)

Aquattro
10-04-2013, 06:06 AM
Huh. Apparently someone forgot to tell this guy (http://www.canreef.com/ftotm/sep13/index.php)

But did you see the frag tank?? :)

gregzz4
10-04-2013, 06:08 AM
Huh. Apparently someone forgot to tell this guy (http://www.canreef.com/ftotm/sep13/index.php)
Haha
But, he is supplementing ...
Does that count as 'dosing', as in a 'disqualified' way ?

http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0810-3119-1727_Cartoon_of_a_Bodybuilder_Flexing_clipart_imag e.jpg

Snappy
10-04-2013, 07:27 AM
I never did get swept in with the LED craze and plan to stay with my good old MH & T5 mix. :biggrin:

thmh
10-04-2013, 02:58 PM
Huh. Apparently someone forgot to tell this guy (http://www.canreef.com/ftotm/sep13/index.php)

Lmao!

~Tony

lastlight
10-04-2013, 03:04 PM
Rich does supplement Kien... so maybe LEDs do suck? I like my sucky LED fixture but won't deny I miss some of the things so many love about halides. I only miss halides when I see yours so maybe that's my problem. Your tank just oozes awesome teehee!

I thought I recalled seeing a lot of halide bulbs being marked down and sold on various sites. There's no doubt that the selection available on the most popular sites is way down from where it used to be.

Proteus
10-04-2013, 03:11 PM
I set up my halide yesterday and forgot how crisp and clean the light is. Though I did notice that certain pieces like forest fire digi does not "pop" as with the led. So now I'm looking into some RB led to compliment the halide.
Just need. To find a way to incorporate them into fixture as the stealth dimensions are 14"x14" and would be concerned that the led be spread to far to the outside

mike31154
10-04-2013, 03:25 PM
It's not only the bulbs/tubes. MH & T5HO ballasts are going to be more difficult to find if you have a failure. If you're fortunate enough to have an old magnetic MH ballast, you may be better off since the individual components such as capacitor & coil are replaceable. These parts are not going away since they're used in other applications.

Vernon's a small city with only one pet store remaining that does salt. AJ's has been slow to move with the times in some respects, but I was in there the other day & the store is full of LED fixtures, with virtually all the T5 stuff marked down significantly. I appreciate where all the folks who love their MH & T5 tanks are coming from, but I really don't think you'll be able to continue with that technology much longer than 5 years.... so enjoy while you can!

So does anyone remember plasma? And what about that skylight in the ceiling for direct sunlight? Isn't that what our livestock really needs?

EDIT: As an example, most of you have undoubtedly heard of a small company called Icecap that manufactured high quality ballasts specific to our hobby. They've been out of business for a while now because they missed the LED boat. Granted, the big players like GE & Philips aren't going away that easy, but they're also on the LED boat full bore & it's unlikely they'll continue making bulbs/ballasts for a small niche such as the salt water aquarium hobby.

kien
10-04-2013, 03:28 PM
I realize that he does supplement with purple T5s to bring the red spectrum back in, but all the high end LEDs fixtures supplement by adding "full spectrum" LEDs nowadays. In theory it should be the same thing? :noidea:

lastlight
10-04-2013, 03:50 PM
full spectrum means the same thing in LED and older tech? ya think?

lastlight
10-04-2013, 03:52 PM
It's not only the bulbs/tubes. MH & T5HO ballasts are going to be more difficult to find if you have a failure.

good example is the true hqi ballasts i spent a lot of time and money buying to properly run 250w radiums. the m80 ballast is no longer made. aquamedic had their own version they were selling but not sure they still make those either.

kien
10-04-2013, 03:57 PM
full spectrum means the same thing in LED and older tech? ya think?

I dunno, I would have assumed so. If you read the LED manufacturer's literature they show a spectral graph usually. The full spectrum units tend to have the "full" spread across the spectrum. Then the user is free to play with the amount of spectrum they want to throw out by infinitely adjusting each LED. At least that was my impression of how "full spectrum" LED units worked. I say we ask Steve. He'll know.

StirCrazy
10-04-2013, 04:04 PM
That pretty much covers it :)

so what kind of MH you going to go with? got the T5s for your sunrise/ sunset, now you need to pick your real light.

Steve

AdamsB
10-04-2013, 04:54 PM
The people talking about MH am t5, I assume you're not referring to cheap Chinese models. eBay is swamped with those. Is there a huge difference between a Phoenix or Radium compared to a $12 dollar Chinese bulb? Same for the t5, how different can a cheap model be?

I've never owned MH an I've only seen one tank with them, an LFS that switched to fluval LED because it was cheaper than replacing a blown bulb and ballast.

kien
10-04-2013, 05:15 PM
eBay is swamped with those. Is there a huge difference between a Phoenix or Radium compared to a $12 dollar Chinese bulb? Same for the t5, how different can a cheap model be?

There is quite a difference, but sometimes there isn't a difference, and here's why..

I tried out cheap eBay halides (14K) for a year back in 2011/2012. The bulbs were so cheap that I bought like 6 of them at once. I even went for the more expensive $30 eBays. For me that would have been two years worth of halides as I run 3x250 watts and change them yearly (typically). I discovered a few interesting things along the way. First off, when I got a good batch of bulbs, they were virtually indistinguishable from the more expensive bulbs. However, getting a good bulb proved to be the challenge. Out of 6 bulbs that I purchased from two different vendors on eBay, 1 of the bulbs only lasted a few months (like 3), before it crapped out. Another bulb appeared to be dirty (black coating on the bulb) that appeared as if it had been used previously. It had a 10K colour cast on it right out of the box even though I bought a 14K. With the 4 remaining (somewhat decent) bulbs, I discovered that they got exhausted much sooner than the typical 1 year that I got out of the more expensive bulbs. At around the 7 or 9 month mark I could tell that they had colour shifted dramatically towards the 10K. As a result, I ended up tossing the lot and going back to Phoenix bulbs. I have never had a problem with the more expensive brand name bulbs. Yes, I know, you get what you pay for. If you don't mind having to swap out the cheap eBay bulbs more often, or frequently getting a dud, then eBays are fine :-)

I think it comes down to quality control, as with anything that comes off of eBay from China. The more expensive brands tend to put more money and effort into quality control and will toss out batches that don't make the cut. The eBayers will snatch those garbaged bulbs up and sell them to you.

The Guy
10-04-2013, 07:03 PM
+1
+1, but it's like anything you get what you pay for, I have AI's and there great. I've tried the cheapie ones " ah no" ! If anyone here has ever had the pleasure if seeing Riches tank you would be a believer of Led's. :first:

typezero
10-04-2013, 08:13 PM
I like your attitude :biggrin:

Are you new to T5s? I don't recall hearing anyone say they bleached their corals from T5s. T5 light is so uniform, enveloping and smooth. It doesn't blast out light like LEDs and halides. The only sucky thing is having to replace all those bulbs. Some people replace T5s every 6 months :surprise:

Ohhh kien..... Your enveloping and smooth ;)

kien
10-04-2013, 08:17 PM
Ohhh kien..... Your enveloping and smooth ;)

That was just one time.. and i thought we agreed to keep it on the down low.

Aquattro
10-04-2013, 08:23 PM
so what kind of MH you going to go with? got the T5s for your sunrise/ sunset, now you need to pick your real light.

Steve

No, gonna try full T5. MH gives me to much humidity and rusts the lock on my front door, locking me out in the rain and then I'm not happy.
anyway, ya, power module 8 bulb fixture. Should be fun :)

mrhasan
10-04-2013, 08:27 PM
No, gonna try full T5. MH gives me to much humidity and rusts the lock on my front door, locking me out in the rain and then I'm not happy.
anyway, ya, power module 8 bulb fixture. Should be fun :)

:Banane30:

(didn't want to use the big one!)

Proteus
10-04-2013, 09:03 PM
Ohhh kien..... Your enveloping and smooth ;)

That was just one time.. and i thought we agreed to keep it on the down low.

And that's how you got Long's purple monster

lastlight
10-04-2013, 09:28 PM
I dunno, I would have assumed so. If you read the LED manufacturer's literature they show a spectral graph usually. The full spectrum units tend to have the "full" spread across the spectrum. Then the user is free to play with the amount of spectrum they want to throw out by infinitely adjusting each LED. At least that was my impression of how "full spectrum" LED units worked. I say we ask Steve. He'll know.

as far as i know LED have sharp spikes (each type of LED present) in those plots and manufacturer's just connect the dots and make those pretty graphs to more closely match LED output to that of halides.

sphelps
10-04-2013, 10:04 PM
as far as i know LED have sharp spikes (each type of LED present) in those plots and manufacturer's just connect the dots and make those pretty graphs to more closely match LED output to that of halides.

I think it's the same for everything, the equipment only measures peak output at certain spectrum then they plot best fit curves. You're right about LEDs and the narrow spectrum for colored LEDs but the white LEDs have broad spectrum curves so it's hard to say what the real curves look like vs other lights.

StirCrazy
10-05-2013, 03:14 AM
No, gonna try full T5. MH gives me to much humidity and rusts the lock on my front door, locking me out in the rain and then I'm not happy.
anyway, ya, power module 8 bulb fixture. Should be fun :)

can't you just add smaller fixtures around your LEDs to suplement the LEDs (being serious now) would be a shame to get rid of the leds

Steve

mike31154
10-05-2013, 04:11 AM
good example is the true hqi ballasts i spent a lot of time and money buying to properly run 250w radiums. the m80 ballast is no longer made. aquamedic had their own version they were selling but not sure they still make those either.

Ah, but you are in luck sir. The M80 is a good old core & coil magnetic ballast with 3 components that should be available with a little searching. Transformer, capacitor & ignitor. Provided the ballast is not encapsulated (covered in black goo to make it water proof), the average schmoe should be able to replace any of these components diy. It's usually the capacitor that goes bad & they're dead simple to change out. You just need to be aware that it's a pretty big capacitor & when fully charged can give you a good buzz. If in doubt, a big screwdriver with an insulated handle may be used to short the two terminals & discharge the capacitor. Ignitor & transformer may be a bit more difficult to find, but just because a ballast manufacturer no longer makes the complete ballast, doesn't mean the parts to repair it can't be found. If you search HID Pocket Guide or HID Troubleshooting (Advance/Phillips), you should be able to find a pdf with all the info. Part numbers should be stamped somewhere on the capacitor & ignitor, transformer, not sure. This old school technology is actually pretty bullet proof & will go a long time.

http://www.candelacorp.com/products/specs/050329/71A5880500D.pdf

I reckon even these options will go away eventually, but the fact that M80 is an ANSI specification bodes well that it will be around for a while yet.

Personally though, I'm on the LED boat & won't be changing back.

Aquattro
10-05-2013, 04:25 AM
can't you just add smaller fixtures around your LEDs to suplement the LEDs (being serious now) would be a shame to get rid of the leds

Steve

Nah, too much work. The T5 look good so far, and I'm happier than I thought I'd be. LED don't really add much other than some shimmer and ramping for sunrise/set. Ok, that's pretty cool, but something I can live without if I have to.

don.ald
10-05-2013, 02:42 PM
How do these sit over your tank?
Legs or hanging...how do you access the tank

Aquattro
10-05-2013, 04:29 PM
How do these sit over your tank?
Legs or hanging...how do you access the tank

Asking me? I don't know yet. Leaning to hanging, but I might get a rack made like Japarto uses on the display tank.

lastlight
10-05-2013, 04:33 PM
Yes sorry I should have been more specific. It's the ignitor by Advance. Las I read they're not made anymore and next to impossible to find.

Ah, but you are in luck sir. The M80 is a good old core & coil magnetic ballast with 3 components that should be available with a little searching. Transformer, capacitor & ignitor. Provided the ballast is not encapsulated (covered in black goo to make it water proof), the average schmoe should be able to replace any of these components diy. It's usually the capacitor that goes bad & they're dead simple to change out. You just need to be aware that it's a pretty big capacitor & when fully charged can give you a good buzz. If in doubt, a big screwdriver with an insulated handle may be used to short the two terminals & discharge the capacitor. Ignitor & transformer may be a bit more difficult to find, but just because a ballast manufacturer no longer makes the complete ballast, doesn't mean the parts to repair it can't be found. If you search HID Pocket Guide or HID Troubleshooting (Advance/Phillips), you should be able to find a pdf with all the info. Part numbers should be stamped somewhere on the capacitor & ignitor, transformer, not sure. This old school technology is actually pretty bullet proof & will go a long time.

http://www.candelacorp.com/products/specs/050329/71A5880500D.pdf

I reckon even these options will go away eventually, but the fact that M80 is an ANSI specification bodes well that it will be around for a while yet.

Personally though, I'm on the LED boat & won't be changing back.

Rice Reef
10-05-2013, 08:34 PM
Nah, too much work. The T5 look good so far, and I'm happier than I thought I'd be. LED don't really add much other than some shimmer and ramping for sunrise/set. Ok, that's pretty cool, but something I can live without if I have to.

Going for the hybrids or straight t5s? I've been thinking hybrids the last month...

Aquattro
10-05-2013, 08:37 PM
Going for the hybrids or straight t5s? I've been thinking hybrids the last month...

Straight T5. Got a good deal on a unit, so that's what I have to work with.

Rice Reef
10-05-2013, 08:40 PM
Straight T5. Got a good deal on a unit, so that's what I have to work with.

Looking forward to see the tank with the t5s !:biggrin:

Aquattro
10-05-2013, 09:17 PM
Looking forward to see the tank with the t5s !:biggrin:
Anytime. I actually have a 4' fixture over it now, just cleaning up mine and figuring out how to mount it.

Rice Reef
10-05-2013, 09:27 PM
Anytime. I actually have a 4' fixture over it now, just cleaning up mine and figuring out how to mount it.

Sounds like a plan... Prob not this coming week... Perhaps the following week... Will pm you then.

gregzz4
10-05-2013, 10:30 PM
Asking me? I don't know yet. Leaning to hanging, but I might get a rack made like Japarto uses on the display tank.
If you're looking for ideas I can show you how I hung mine
I prefer mine hanging with the stock kit so I can move it up and out of the way

Proteus
10-06-2013, 02:54 PM
I am looking to put up some ecoexotic panorama stops (RB) along side my halide to get the pop back

Any suggestion

Madreefer
10-06-2013, 03:36 PM
I am looking to put up some ecoexotic panorama stops (RB) along side my halide to get the pop back

Any suggestion

I've got 4 of the Panorama Pro RGB's and the one touch controller. I have them to add some pop to my AI's. I initially thought they helped until I switched to Hydras. They might work with MH. If you do go that route get the reflectors and stay away from the garbage controller.

Proteus
10-06-2013, 04:24 PM
Ok. I'll try to see if lfs has one to try rather than buy it and hate it. I would def get the reflector

Thanks you

Jakegr
10-06-2013, 07:44 PM
I switched from a Tek light T-5 to a Kessel LED last year and wouldn't go back just because I hated spending money on bulbs.

When we talk about LEDs, in my opinion the problem isn't that they do not promote photosynthesis as well as a halide/T5. As Dr. Sanjay Joshi said "a photon is a photon""... the problem is that they miss parts of the spectrum that are needed for reasons outside of photosynthesis. For example, it has always bothered me that the LED spectrum ends at 660 nm for most fixtures. I don't believe Cree or Phillips has an emitter above 660 nm, and if they do, it isn't in any mainstream aquarium fixture. Red light above 660 nm has long been known to play a critical role in the development of terrestrial plants. For example, the wavelength of light signals for "phototropism" - when a plant moves itself in response to changes in light directivity. Some plants are triggered by blue light, others by red.

Does light play non-photosynthetic roles in corals? I don't know for sure. Corals are very different from plants. But I do know for sure that some corals respond to light directivity... I'm sure pretty much every experienced hobbyist would agree. I have noticed Xenia and colt corals seem to "climb" towards light. I'm not an SPS-hobbyist... how do they respond to light directivity?

Mandosh
10-07-2013, 08:30 AM
One year of growth from (mostly) frags under straight t5s:

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx32/mandosh86/20131004_135802_zps5b93b9dc.jpg (http://s739.photobucket.com/user/mandosh86/media/20131004_135802_zps5b93b9dc.jpg.html)

waynemah
10-15-2013, 05:32 AM
Brad, what are you doing for a bulb combination?

I've played with it a bunch over the weekend and found this combination one of the best. Spots 3 and 6 are on a different circuit, so the sunrise/sunset looks kinda washed, I miss the LED Royal Blue at point in the day...

--Front--
Blue+
Coral+
Blue+
Purple+
Aquablue Special
Blue+
Purple +
Blue+
--Back--

Aquattro
10-15-2013, 01:11 PM
Brad, what are you doing for a bulb combination?

I've played with it a bunch over the weekend and found this combination one of the best. Spots 3 and 6 are on a different circuit, so the sunrise/sunset looks kinda washed, I miss the LED Royal Blue at point in the day...

--Front--
Blue+
Coral+
Blue+
Purple+
Aquablue Special
Blue+
Purple +
Blue+
--Back--

I'm not sure yet. I have 2 each of Blue+, Coral+, Purple+, and waiting for 2 back ordered Aquablue specials. In the interim, I have a couple of KZ 15k bulbs which I think look like garbage, so probably won't keep them in once the specials show up.
The blue+ take the 2 bulb circuit for the actinic effect, but I haven't really finalized the distribution. The light is still on my table waiting for 2 more fans. Currently I have a 4' unit resting on top of the tank between two SOLs. No idea what bulbs or age of bulbs, but anxious to get the new unit fired up.

Spyd
10-15-2013, 01:21 PM
I'm not sure yet. I have 2 each of Blue+, Coral+, Purple+, and waiting for 2 back ordered Aquablue specials. In the interim, I have a couple of KZ 15k bulbs which I think look like garbage, so probably won't keep them in once the specials show up.
The blue+ take the 2 bulb circuit for the actinic effect, but I haven't really finalized the distribution. The light is still on my table waiting for 2 more fans. Currently I have a 4' unit resting on top of the tank between two SOLs. No idea what bulbs or age of bulbs, but anxious to get the new unit fired up.

I would do away with the Aquablue Specials and just get 2 more Blue +. The Aquablue Specials are like the Coral Plus except even whiter IMO. Your tank would look too white, unless you like that look. I run a 8 x 80w ATI with 5 - Blue Plus, 2 - Coral Plus and 1 - Purple Plus. It's still not super blue, but it is not completely white either. Just my opinion.

Proteus
10-15-2013, 01:22 PM
I miss the LED Royal Blue at point in the day...



Same for me while the halide is doing things the radion only dreamed about I miss the RB
I ordered a RB led retro kit so hoping to have that soon

Spyd
10-15-2013, 01:29 PM
I just ordered some DIY RB LED kits for my ATI Fixture. I will be running a strip of RB off of both sides of my fixture. That way I get some additional PAR, along with the nice LED pop and shimmer.

I am using 2" wide extruded aluminim for heat sinks. I don't have a canopy so I need a nice clean look and this would be best.

Aquattro
10-15-2013, 01:35 PM
I would do away with the Aquablue Specials and just get 2 more Blue +. The Aquablue Specials are like the Coral Plus except even whiter IMO. Your tank would look too white, unless you like that look. I run a 8 x 80w ATI with 5 - Blue Plus, 2 - Coral Plus and 1 - Purple Plus. It's still not super blue, but it is not completely white either. Just my opinion.

I'll keep that in mind. It's what I have now, so I'll use it, but I'm sure things will change once I run it for a while. My only guide was the description for the bulbs :)
I do want to try and find a strip of blue LED that I can hook into my Apex for extra blue, some ramping and a bit of shimmer. Let me know how your add-ons work.

kien
10-15-2013, 02:49 PM
Sounds like all y'alls are feeling a little blue after switching from LEDS. I'm blue la-da-dee da-dee-da da-da-dee da-dee-da

lastlight
10-15-2013, 02:49 PM
I do want to try and find a strip of blue LED that I can hook into my Apex for extra blue

and so it begins. before that which is just beginning has barely begun.:mrgreen:

Aquattro
10-15-2013, 03:02 PM
and so it begins. before that which is just beginning has barely begun.:mrgreen:

No, it began before it begun! The plan was always to add a strip of LED, as I really do love the ramping ability. Choosing blue is simply a matter of providing an actinic type dimming effect.

waynemah
10-16-2013, 01:58 AM
I find it's a give and take relationship with this hobby. The RB is what I'll give up for the coverage I'm after. Tank seems quite a bit brighter though.

Brad, do you prefer a more white or blue look to a tank? The combination I choose is more white than a SOL Blue with 100% white and 80% on CB/RB. I'm very happy with it. I just hope the corals gain some coloration over the next while.

Aquattro
10-16-2013, 02:01 AM
I prefer a more blue look, the SOLs were at 100% on both blue and 96% on white. I suppose I'll have to tune the color once I have it in place a while, or I'll get used to whatever color it gives :)

waynemah
10-16-2013, 02:17 AM
I tried 5 blue+, 2 Coral+ and 1 Purple+ and it was the best blue combination for me. Aquablue Special might not be your thing, it's quite a bit more yellow than coral+.

Aquattro
10-16-2013, 02:20 AM
I tried 5 blue+, 2 Coral+ and 1 Purple+ and it was the best blue combination for me. Aquablue Special might not be your thing, it's quite a bit more yellow than coral+.

I figured more blue+ might give a nice color but not enough PAR. Maybe more coral+?

Wheelman76
10-16-2013, 03:24 AM
The blue + and coral + are actually very close in par.

waynemah
10-16-2013, 08:59 PM
The blue + and coral + are actually very close in par.

Yep, apparently some guys go with 7 blue+ and 1 coral+ and still grow SPS on the sand.

don.ald
10-26-2013, 03:20 PM
:behindsofa:

thmh
10-26-2013, 03:27 PM
Blue+ is where it's at! All you need from the other bulbs are the yellow and red spectrum imo.

~Tony

Aquattro
10-27-2013, 06:15 PM
And it's done. LEDs off, ATI T5 on. Found a couple extra Blue+, so just waiting for the 6 daytime bulbs to fire up to see what it looks like. Room looks different without the giant canopy on the tank :)

mrhasan
10-27-2013, 08:28 PM
And it's done. LEDs off, ATI T5 on. Found a couple extra Blue+, so just waiting for the 6 daytime bulbs to fire up to see what it looks like. Room looks different without the giant canopy on the tank :)

YAAAAY :mrgreen:

kien
10-27-2013, 08:31 PM
And it's done. LEDs off, ATI T5 on. Found a couple extra Blue+, so just waiting for the 6 daytime bulbs to fire up to see what it looks like. Room looks different without the giant canopy on the tank :)

Pics!! Also, see you again at your first bulb change. :lol:

Aquattro
10-27-2013, 08:38 PM
Pics!! Also, see you again at your first bulb change. :lol:

Ya, I'll get some pics. As for bulb change, it's cheaper than MH and that's never really been a concern of mine. I figure it's the cost of having nice coral.
Keeping things in perspective, I spend enough for bulbs each month at sbux, so bulbs every 10 months isn't a biggie :)

Aqua-Digital
10-27-2013, 11:58 PM
It seems more and more people are coming out of the lighting closet. Who else is ditching their LEDs for other options??

Only people I see ditching LED are those that opted for cheap units that don't have the technology to replicate T5 or MH.

You get what you pay for with technology. Its a shame as we are seeing these people fall out of love with LED for the totally wrong reasons, and why it is so important to invest in something that ultimately will pay off.

Disco ball fixtures and spot lighting LED's are going to never be a win factor in the long term.

The cheaper fixtures are giving the LED industry a bad name and that really is a shame.

Without getting all commercial, I believe there are only two fixtures out there that can actually do what an LED is supposed to do.

I did a write up on this on RC on a similar thread.

When you make the investment it pays off! Proven!

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/10367282663_044d5f2d48_b.jpg

Aquattro
10-28-2013, 12:05 AM
Michael, to be fair to all LEDs, I didn't much care for the Mitras either :). Sure, they're probably a bit better than AI or Radions, but still not up to speed with MH or, as I'm seeing now, even T5.
I love many features of LED, and my coral was amazing even under the cheapo AI's, but I can get more amazing out of a different light source.
This will always be a topic where people disagree and defend their preferred technology, so everyone should just use what works best for their tank. Right now, I'm really liking the T5 colors.

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 12:18 AM
I will be the honest 100% not just because we distribute them, you are the first ever anywhere to say that about the Mitras, Thats truly not a defense comment but fact.

Here is one sample
I had the pleasure of seeing a Mitras in person at my LFS two days ago. It was the first time I saw the Mitras and was pleasantly surprised. I've seen Sols, Radions etc, but this was different.

It was so much like Metal Halide it was unbelievable. Also, I couldnt see dancing colours on the sand either. The colour mix is excellent.

If anyone is seriously considering swapping over to full LED, go see one in person.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2219645&highlight=mitras&page=43

But not to take this off track, my guess is it just was not dialed in.

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 12:19 AM
Its not about colour either it is also about the health of the corals, thats where cheaper LED fixtures long term let people down and they revert back

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 12:20 AM
. This will always be a topic where people disagree and defend their preferred technology, so everyone should just use what works best for their tank. Right now, I'm really liking the T5 colors.

100% agree :)

Proteus
10-28-2013, 12:22 AM
Only people I see ditching LED are those that opted for cheap units that don't have the technology to replicate T5 or MH.
]

pay more attn to the forums. It people like myself with radion and mitras and hydras that are switching to t5 or halides.

Myself ran the led train for two years and ime color and growth are no where near led.

So please tell me how a $1200 mitras pays off compared to a $400 halide. Fact is halides are "proven". Fact is that led has been taking off with yet more advance on the way. One day I believe that they will be at par with t5 or halides but not just yet.
I think also the producers are also seeing this. If not the power module probably would have not Ben released
The trend that I am seeing is distributors backing what they sell and the most expensive ones at that. It hard for you as a distributor to support a item that you know longer carry.

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 12:27 AM
$999 to be precise ;)

The mitras has been shown many times to equal both the power and the growth of a MH, furthermore you have infinite adjustments to the spectra without having to change a bulb, (as you do of course with other full spectrum LED`s Like Radion another fine fixture)you also have the ability to properly dim the fixture with the built in (only available on Mitras) Linear dimming technology, no thats not the same as digital dimming.

Then of course there is the electrical power saving.

As for tanks under mitras

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=101801

The Mitras was specifically designed to take on MH and T5 in one fixture, this is what you pay for.

But I dont want this to be Mitras Vs all of a sudden, as Aquattro said there will be fans in both camps, all i will say is if you are going to take the leap into LED then spend the money and it will pay you back, try and do it on the cheap, I do not see that it will.

Proteus
10-28-2013, 12:58 AM
Before I jump back into led I think I'll wait a year or two to see what advancements come. I'm sure the manufacturer still hold some tricks up their sleeves

mrhasan
10-28-2013, 01:16 AM
$999 to be precise ;)

The mitras has been shown many times to equal both the power and the growth of a MH, furthermore you have infinite adjustments to the spectra without having to change a bulb, (as you do of course with other full spectrum LED`s Like Radion another fine fixture)you also have the ability to properly dim the fixture with the built in (only available on Mitras) Linear dimming technology, no thats not the same as digital dimming.

Then of course there is the electrical power saving.

As for tanks under mitras

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=101801

The Mitras was specifically designed to take on MH and T5 in one fixture, this is what you pay for.

But I dont want this to be Mitras Vs all of a sudden, as Aquattro said there will be fans in both camps, all i will say is if you are going to take the leap into LED then spend the money and it will pay you back, try and do it on the cheap, I do not see that it will.

:lol: Lets not get to the power saving and cost benefit returns. Steve did his calculation with electricity savings and I did the cost benefit returns a lot of time over here so I will start pasting them to prove that particular line is just a false advertisement (to some degree) :razz: Wondering why? With halides, your heater runs less; with LED, your heater runs more and the total consumption gets quite close to each other Steve did the calculation few months back in a similar thread ;) And about bulb replacement and electricity savings and the initial investment....it would take almost 5 years or more depending on the high end fixture to get even with MH/T5HO. Raise your hands who has been using the same "commercial" fixture for even the last 2/3 years atleast! :smile: DIY fixtures are a whole new horizon and I won't get there.

About "cheap" fixtures. Like Nick already mentioned, people with all forms of LEDs are moving away, be it AI, be it Radion, be it mitra. Infact, I have seen more happy faces using evergrow LEDs than a radion pro. Come on their power factor for the power supply is around 0.6! That's the crapiest AC-DC converter; even a 10 year old with basic knowledge of capacitor and inductor would be able to pull out a AC-DC converter close to 1!

And about mitras. I won't say anything :) I love the ability of that fixture; GHL knows how to utilize LED on reefs - that's for sure. But I hate the packaging. Fishes don't wear sunglasses! Get realistic...maybe that's holding me back from getting it? Oh wait...its the $1000 price tag = almost 7 years of my bulb replacement. Damn!

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 01:18 AM
My only thought to that is, with this sort of technology there will always be advances, it comes down to when you or the next person feels most comfortable taking that leap.

My original point can be summed up as thus, and a short version of my post on RC. If you did not get what you hoped out of LED, this does not mean all LED`s will fail you, the most likely reason is the technology that was not employed into the fixture that you invested in, so my point is, spend as much as you can and you will more than likely get what you hoped for.

There is no argument to be made for saying higher priced fixtures are just profiteering, look through the forums, where do you see most the success stories? There is no market left in this industry for overpriced non worthy items, manufacturers now have to sell at bare minimums to even bring their product to market. So if it is more expensive you can be sure it is due to the cost of manufacturing that fixture.

My closing statement is - Don't put all LED's in the same basket if the one you tried failed you, invest in the ones that have the proven technology to deliver.

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 01:23 AM
With halides, your heater runs less; with LED, your heater runs more

Ok sorry this makes no sense, MH pump out stacks of heat to the degree you need a chiller or cooling fans, with LED the heat is minimal and they have built in fans. I dont have either on my tank. If I had MH I would need one or the other.

And about mitras. I won't say anything :) I love the ability of that fixture; GHL knows how to utilize LED on reefs - that's for sure. But I hate the packaging. Fishes don't wear sunglasses! Get realistic...maybe that's holding me back from getting it? Oh wait...its the $1000 price tag = almost 7 years of my bulb replacement. Damn!

we all know the sunglasses are just a gimmick bit of fun i dont see how that has any relevance ;) The packaging has also no reflection on the units ability to perform. So you are saying your purchasing choices are made based on a glossy box. Great news the GHL now has a glossy box ;)

In regards to the price, its the technology you are buying, its up to the consumer if they wish to take that leap to the next level.

Dont take my reply the wrong way, just having a bit of light hearted banter with you on a Sunday evening.

mrhasan
10-28-2013, 01:32 AM
Ok sorry this makes no sense, MH pump out stacks of heat to the degree you need a chiller or cooling fans, with LED the heat is minimal and they have built in fans



we all know the sunglasses are just a gimmick bit of fun i dont see how that has any relevance ;) The packaging has also no reflection on the units ability to perform.

I would love to see a statistics about how many people with LED don't need to run chiller anymore who used to run it before. BC would be a great place to start ;)

To my mind, if someone needed chiller while using MH, they would still need chiller if they are running LED. That's because most of the chiller users have the ambient temperature higher than favorable for the tank (unless their ambient is sitting around, say 80; in that case they won't need chiller). MH just makes it worse while LED doesn't; but in the end, they still need to run the chiller. Maybe less, but it will be there.

In the end, electricity is dirt cheap. Even if the LED eliminates chiller, the total cost benefit will probably come down by a month or so.

In the end, the whole cost thing, like i keep on saying, is just a hype. LED has its benefits and bells and whistles but no one can justify me the "less cost" thing. When costs come, I want to look at the cost-benefit return; not just a tagline of "hey you won't need to replace bulbs". Cause I am paying which is equivalent to 7 years worth of bulb replacement. That's a lot of time.....and electricity is dirt cheap :)

Proteus
10-28-2013, 01:38 AM
There is no market left in this industry for overpriced non worthy items, manufacturers now have to sell at bare minimums to even bring their product to market.

Gettin deep in here

I would guess that mitras and radion pros are both built for less than $300

mrhasan
10-28-2013, 01:41 AM
Gettin deep in here

I would guess that mitras and radion pros are both built for less than $300

Definitely. Big names have a HUGE profit margin. They justify that through customer service, warranty, R&D, packaging and marketing. If Radion was to be marketed through places like...alibaba....it's cost would have come down by around 50% :razz: Marketing is a big thing and cost for big names. Michael will be able to comment on that :smile:

tim the toolman
10-28-2013, 01:48 AM
I personally don't have the liquid cash to throw at high end led fixtures so I have opted to go with a midrange fixture. (ever grow 2080). Now I have only ordered the fixture last week so I still don't have it to say if I like the lighting or not but I had to factor cost into the equation.

My current fixture is a 14 bulb t5 fixture over a 180gallon tank. This means that at approx 20$ or more a bulb it costs me around 300$ to do a bulb change. It also means that when I turn on my lights it's drawing just under 560 watts. With this in mind I bought the led fixture.

I was due for a bulb change - 300$
Led fixture comes with a 3 year warranty
In that 3 year period I will have to do basically 3 more bulb changes 900$ more
So by the time my warranty is up I will have saved 1200$ in bulbs not to mention about 200 watts per hour running. So roughly 2 KwH per day.
Being that the 2 fixtures needed to cover my tank will only cost me 1000$ it was a risk I had to take.

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 01:56 AM
Definitely. Big names have a HUGE profit margin. They justify that through customer service, warranty, R&D, packaging and marketing. If Radion was to be marketed through places like...alibaba....it's cost would have come down by around 50% :razz: Marketing is a big thing and cost for big names. Michael will be able to comment on that :smile:

Yep i will with complete openness, my GROSS profit for a Mitras right now is $63 and thats gross not taking into account the above mentioned cost of marketing, etc etc. Dealer margins for LED is typically 30-40% ( dealers have high overheads, shop rents mouths to feed, this is an industry expected % for dry goods) for a dealer to sell a Mitras sadly their margin is far less than that and why we help them by drop shipping most so they do not have to cut into their own profits.

My last shipment cost me more the Euro has gone up by 200 base points in 3 weeks.

Now thats 100% openness

GHL took 2 years to develop the Mitras with a leading lighting lab, look at the build quality, look at the fans all UL certified. These things come at a price, i can assure you the Mitras taking into account all tooling and cost of labour comes in above $300, the power supply alone is $45 cost price!

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 02:00 AM
I would love to see a statistics about how many people with LED don't need to run chiller anymore who used to run it before. BC would be a great place to start ;)

Again simple reply, set your house AC to 71F and thats that, no extenal heat source to raise the tank temp

I live in Ontario we have sky high temps in the summer and I have no chiller or fan on my tank. No need, the AC does that for me and the LED gives off no heat.

Check out my build on my forum, no fans and no chiller. We had over 90F regularly in ottawa this year.

mrhasan
10-28-2013, 02:07 AM
Again simple reply, set your house AC to 71F and thats that, no extenal heat source to raise the tank temp

I live in Ontario we have sky high temps in the summer and I have no chiller or fan on my tank. No need, the AC does that for me and the LED gives off no heat.

Check out my build on my forum, no fans and no chiller. We had over 90F regularly in ottawa this year.

You would have to have the AC irrespective of whether you are running LED or MH. If you set 71F at the AC, the tank temp without light/heater will hover around that. With MH, it will probably raise the temp by 10F max (if the lamps are raising more, you are probably keeping the lamps too close to the water). So your tank will eventually sit around 80F to 82F. With LED, your tank will need heater to get that up.

And with AC running, you won't need chiller isinit? Unless you are running like 400w MH over a 12sq. inch surface area. (some of these numbers are vague and just came from my mind; please do correct me if I am wrong).

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 02:11 AM
Yes you are right but you are now running round in circles the original point you made was LED heated up a tank more than MH, that simply is not the case, in fact impossible. the LED unit would melt, the LEDS would be so inefficient due to the heat.

In your first post you said an LED heats the tank more now its "you need a heater to get it up there" bit tired did I miss read something?

So yes if you run MH you need a chiller even if you have AC, with LED you dont as they are putting no heat into the tank.

again not arguing just a friendly debate (no emotion to bloody words on a page)

mrhasan
10-28-2013, 02:13 AM
Yes you are right but you are now running round in circles the original point you made was LED heated up a tank more than MH, that simply is not the case, in fact impossible. the LED unit would melt, the LEDS would be so inefficient due to the heat.

So yes if you run MH you need a chiller even if you have AC, with LED you dont as they are putting no heat into the tank.

Where did I write that? :surprise:

What I wrote was:

With halides, your heater runs less; with LED, your heater runs more

Madreefer
10-28-2013, 02:15 AM
I really don't know why those that have never tried LEDs keep posting on the topic. They blurt out all these "facts" that those of us that actually have experience with have to correct. I read or heard this means nothing.

Proteus
10-28-2013, 02:17 AM
Haha. Yeah. Now I need to spend $2000 on ac to get rid of the chiller ;)

I run a single 250w halide over my tank. While I do have fans. They have yet to turn on. While brad for example still needed his chiller with t5.

I know what your saying with profit margins on led. I recently had comversation with lfs in this. It makes it hard to make money with such small profits.

Reality is. I like halide. I'm sure I will also like led in the future. Other than operating cost. It will take 9 years of bulb replacements to cost the price of a mitras. And after that 9 years I'll buy a 2nd hand mitras for $300. Proven. Look at gen 1 radions

As for operating cost. If we really cared then things like A/C, hot tubs and personal work shops would all half to go. My hottub runs me $70ish a month. Do I use it enough to justify that? Probably not. But I haven't ****ed and moan about that yet

mrhasan
10-28-2013, 02:17 AM
we all know the sunglasses are just a gimmick bit of fun i dont see how that has any relevance ;) The packaging has also no reflection on the units ability to perform. So you are saying your purchasing choices are made based on a glossy box. Great news the GHL now has a glossy box ;)

In regards to the price, its the technology you are buying, its up to the consumer if they wish to take that leap to the next level.

Dont take my reply the wrong way, just having a bit of light hearted banter with you on a Sunday evening.

Well when you are paying $1000 for a fixture, you would love to have fancy boxes. One thing that I did notice is that european brands don't pay much attention to boxes while american manufactures put their things in awesome boxes. Tunze pumps vs vortec pumps. Salinity salt box vs H2Ocean salt box; mitra's box vs radion's box. :lol:

Oh don't worry about that...I love debates :smile:

Proteus
10-28-2013, 02:19 AM
I really don't know why those that have never tried LEDs keep posting on the topic. They blurt out all these "facts" that those of us that actually have experience with have to correct. I read or heard this means nothing.

Haha. I was waiting for that

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 02:19 AM
LOL as I said I am tired ;) You win that argument on the heater ;) HOWEVER a chiller can (not always) cost more to run than a heater, so the MH will still cost more based on that.

mrhasan
10-28-2013, 02:19 AM
I really don't know why those that have never tried LEDs keep posting on the topic. They blurt out all these "facts" that those of us that actually have experience with have to correct. I read or heard this means nothing.

Bill I haven't posted anything about performance of LED over here. I am talking about cost-benefit and electricity; something that can be judged from the manuals and numbers and doesn't need any sort of experience.

Doug
10-28-2013, 02:23 AM
I personally don't have the liquid cash to throw at high end led fixtures so I have opted to go with a midrange fixture. (ever grow 2080). Now I have only ordered the fixture last week so I still don't have it to say if I like the lighting or not but I had to factor cost into the equation.

My current fixture is a 14 bulb t5 fixture over a 180gallon tank. This means that at approx 20$ or more a bulb it costs me around 300$ to do a bulb change. It also means that when I turn on my lights it's drawing just under 560 watts. With this in mind I bought the led fixture.

I was due for a bulb change - 300$
Led fixture comes with a 3 year warranty
In that 3 year period I will have to do basically 3 more bulb changes 900$ more
So by the time my warranty is up I will have saved 1200$ in bulbs not to mention about 200 watts per hour running. So roughly 2 KwH per day.
Being that the 2 fixtures needed to cover my tank will only cost me 1000$ it was a risk I had to take.


Ditto for me. I was about to buy either the Mitras or the new hybrid t5/led for my new 3ft 50g......but figured for half the price the 2080 will do just fine. Well thats the plan at least. Im fascinated by the 3ft hybrid but not at $1500

reefwars
10-28-2013, 02:24 AM
Crap I guess My cheap low end radion pros at 915$ times two was the cause I shoulda went high end?

I went back to t5 as well after a long battle with coral long term health switch to t5 was instant results that's hard to ignore Considering the time I spent and the money on different generations

Sps wise I was at my end and constant tweaking of.my system wasn't getting answers

Since the switch back to t5 all is well again ......

tim the toolman
10-28-2013, 02:28 AM
Ditto for me. I was about to buy either the Mitras or the new hybrid t5/led for my new 3ft 50g......but figured for half the price the 2080 will do just fine. Well thats the plan at least. Im fascinated by the 3ft hybrid but not at $1500


Yeah I figured it would be 2000$ minimum for the Mitras or radions. And with a 3 year warranty on the ever grow they must be confident in the product they are putting out.

Also the built in programmer and full spectrum claims really tweaked my interest.

I read a few reviews about the evergrow and all seemed to be happy to downright impressed.

Should also state I'm not going real hard towards sps. A few pieces for sure but mostly lps

Reef Pilot
10-28-2013, 02:36 AM
I probably should know better than to wade into this debate. But I used to have T5's and now run Radion LEDs, so my experience might be relevant.

I should first mention that I now have two 6' tanks with closed canopies (vented) and covered tanks. Initially I had one tank with T5s. There was a lot of heat produced by these, and the chiller (1/3 HP model, ran for about 8 hours a day, both summer and winter. I am quite sure that even the room was heated up by these during the day. But at night the tank cooled down and the heater would kick in usually about 6 AM and cycle on and off for about 3 hours, until the lights were on for a while.

Then I replaced the T5s with Radions. Shortly after I also added a second 6 foot tank also covered, and with canopies and Radions. I now have two 6 foot tanks running off one sump, so the heater and chiller are for both tanks. What's interesting is that the heater still only runs about 3 hours on and off, same as before when I had one tank with T5s. But my chiller which now has to cool 2 tanks only runs about 3 hours a day, starting just before my LEDs peak for the day.

So, for me, I believe there is a huge power saving. And there is very little heat vented into the room now, from my canopies.

Doug
10-28-2013, 02:36 AM
I have the smaller evergrow on my 20g and my sps doing just dandy. Thus my interest in the larger, better model. The only other choice would be just t-5s, like the 36in. 6 bulb sunpower.I keep peeking at it.:lol:

As mine will be open top........heat is not an issue

tim the toolman
10-28-2013, 02:38 AM
I have the smaller evergrow on my 20g and my sps doing just dandy. Thus my interest in the larger, better model. The only other choice would be just t-5s, like the 36in. 6 bulb sunpower.I keep peeking at it.:lol:

I was always happy with t5 for sure. But as my previous post states, with 14 bulbs it's just waaaay expensive lol

I'm expecting my evergrow in a couple days so I will definitely post my thoughts on it.

Rice Reef
10-28-2013, 02:41 AM
And it's done. LEDs off, ATI T5 on. Found a couple extra Blue+, so just waiting for the 6 daytime bulbs to fire up to see what it looks like. Room looks different without the giant canopy on the tank :)


Brad, congrats in making the change! I'll have to come over soon to see the tank under only t5s. I'm still researching and waiting for some technology being perfected with the t5s ( dimming etc...) before I will make the plunge however at this time, the mitras are as close to t5s it's gonna get at this time for me ( please keep in mind that this is my opinion based on how my eyes react to the lighting the mitras put out).

I am keeping a close eye on them ati hybrids... I see that there are some nice tanks that had recently changed over to the t5 hybrids from LEDs which includes the mitras.

thmh
10-28-2013, 02:43 AM
dayum this thread is hawt hawt fire!!!:D iam glad iam batting for both led and t5....yaaaah!!!

Doug
10-28-2013, 02:51 AM
I know one thing. Brad knows what he,s doing with sps. Look back at his previous tank. :D. Sheez, even the 6 bulb plus bulbs is big $$$$$. I know cause Im pricing. :lol:

wayner
10-28-2013, 02:55 AM
Waiting on my ATI Hybrid to be delivered - just thought I'd throw it out there 🎃

mrhasan
10-28-2013, 02:57 AM
Waiting on my ATI Hybrid to be delivered - just thought I'd throw it out there 🎃

Will you please do a review of that beast? :mrgreen: No one in this forum seems to have done it till date. Would be really interesting to see one over here instead of going over to youtube to see the same dimming and flashing effects without any insights and helpful comments.

Aquattro
10-28-2013, 03:11 AM
dayum this thread is hawt hawt fire!!!:D iam glad iam batting for both led and t5....yaaaah!!!

Ya know, if I were to jump in now, I might look at the hybrids. I do like the features of LED, with the color from T5. And I could buy a fixture today for what I paid for the AIs. And with the money I lost selling them, there were no cost savings to be seen -lol
Also, just an observation with my corals, I notice my green milli now has gold tones, which it never had, even under my MH... And this fixture, with new bulbs, is probably 40% brighter than the loaner unit I was using. I may have found a new favorite light.

wayner
10-28-2013, 03:24 AM
Will you please do a review of that beast? :mrgreen: No one in this forum seems to have done it till date. Would be really interesting to see one over here instead of going over to youtube to see the same dimming and flashing effects without any insights and helpful comments.

Sure Will - the Madjelly Boys have been running them for awhile - maybe we can get them to post their thoughts on the Hybrid., in another thread of course, Poor Brads thread has been beaten up and taken over.

There will be a few of us here in Calgary receiving the Hybrid pretty soon - you will be able to see one on display at one of your favourite stores pretty soon

mrhasan
10-28-2013, 03:31 AM
Sure Will - the Madjelly Boys have been running them for awhile - maybe we can get them to post their thoughts on the Hybrid., in another thread of course, Poor Brads thread has been beaten up and taken over.

There will be a few of us here in Calgary receiving the Hybrid pretty soon - you will be able to see one on display at one of your favourite stores pretty soon

Awesome :mrgreen:

Yah. I should apologize to Brad for ruining his thread. Sorry Brad :cry:

thmh
10-28-2013, 03:31 AM
Brad just to give you a tease of what you can achieve with full t5 , this is one of the tanks that made me a t5liever. P.S iam now selling his secret bulb combination!!!:D

This is one of my reefin buddy tanks aka FlagSwipe !!!!
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k222/kimchixiv/October%20coral%201/dwaynestank_zps530952a5.jpg (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/kimchixiv/media/October%20coral%201/dwaynestank_zps530952a5.jpg.html)

Doug
10-28-2013, 03:32 AM
How do you justify the cost of the hydrid?

We not wrecking his thread. This is a very kool, {no pun intended}, lighting thread.

Aquattro
10-28-2013, 03:49 AM
This is one of my reefin buddy tanks aka FlagSwipe !!!!


Looks like mine except with baby corals :razz:

So let's hear about the secret bulb combo!!

Aquattro
10-28-2013, 03:51 AM
How do you justify the cost of the hydrid?

We not wrecking his thread. This is a very kool, {no pun intended}, lighting thread.

The hybrid is about what I paid for my AI's, so I think fair, if the coverage is there.

And ya, have at it in this thread, it's just meant to spur discussion on people moving away from LED to various other technologies.

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 03:54 AM
I just dont see the purpose of Hybrids. T5 on their own for years have been a leading source for some of the worlds best tanks, so other than some tweak-able moonlight and shimmer what is the point?

Either be one or the other, but that's my own feeling.

thmh
10-28-2013, 03:58 AM
How do you justify the cost of the hydrid?

We not wrecking his thread. This is a very kool, {no pun intended}, lighting thread.

Here ill give you a breakdown of our thoughts at the time.
i got my 4ft hybrid fixture for less then $2000
brand new 4ft 6bulb ati fixture + reefbrite(2) $1500 ish
brand new "highend" led fixture would cost me $1800-2000 ish

So if you take that into consideration ati hybrid fixture is not that ridiculously expensive vs other brands. We love our ati hybrid because its the best of both worlds!

Aquattro
10-28-2013, 04:05 AM
other than some tweak-able moonlight and shimmer what is the point?


These are the 2 features i miss with LED, so if I can supplement them without too much trouble, it would be nice to have those features back. The hybrids give you that, although there may be a loss in available T5 to make room for the LEDs.
I would like a 4' strip that is controllable via my Apex. For not a lot of money. lol

typezero
10-28-2013, 04:10 AM
I personally dont like the general tank look of a pure t5ho tank. But the corals coloration are great! I was going to go with the power module and add 2 reef brights for the shimmer and pop which I like the look of. After the cost of a power module and 2 reef brights you are up there already.
At the end of the day i paid a little premium to get the ati hybrid to have a nice complete package hanging on top of my tank.
From my experience with leds, watt for watt they grow my sps great, dare I say better than t5ho alone. But colouration is lacking in the sps. So the white led on my hybrids can provide the muscle to grow my corals so i can pack the lights with blue plus and purple plus bulbs to obtain the colours in the coral.
Cost to run T5ho is negligible to me because when i purchase specific coral for top $ it frustrates me that i cannot obtain the colouration that i bought it for.
So to sum it up the hybrids to me... Offer a compact neat package that offers leds growth advantage, with the t5ho colouration advantage and the shimmer and pop the blue/ royal blues offer.

I think this thread is awesome, one of the main reasons we keep a reef tank is due to the crazy colours we get to see in our tanks. So picking a fixture that works for YOU in your own unique SITUATION (tank size, what corals you own, cost running, cost for initial purchase etc) is very important.
IMO theres no perfect fixture out there, you just gatta weigh the pros and cons for each one and see which one offers more pros to you.

Doug
10-28-2013, 04:11 AM
Here ill give you a breakdown of our thoughts at the time.
i got my 4ft hybrid fixture for less then $2000
brand new 4ft 6bulb ati fixture + reefbrite(2) $1500 ish
brand new "highend" led fixture would cost me $1800-2000 ish

So if you take that into consideration ati hybrid fixture is not that ridiculously expensive vs other brands. We love our ati hybrid because its the best of both worlds!
Agreed. But your adding led,s. Im comparing with just the 6 bulb sunpower. No shimmer, but good growth and colour

Ok nevermind. Just seen your next post..:D

wayner
10-28-2013, 04:34 AM
I believe the Hybrid fixture was built for the Hard Core SPS Guy - obviously can be used with a mixed reef also - but for us SPS freaks that spend thousands of dollars on High end SPS, we want to see that color and growth , as mentioned above, The Led provides that extra punch for growth, gives you that shimmer effect that we Halide users love, t5's provide that uniform coverage and color.

mrhasan
10-28-2013, 04:47 AM
I just dont see the purpose of Hybrids. T5 on their own for years have been a leading source for some of the worlds best tanks, so other than some tweak-able moonlight and shimmer what is the point?

Either be one or the other, but that's my own feeling.

Once upon a time, people used to think T5s are just for supplements. And now LED took over that title. Its just part of the evolution :) Don't worry Michael, LED is the future. Its just that, the word "future" represents a very broad spectrum (no pun intended) :smile:

Aquattro
10-28-2013, 05:08 AM
As for growth, I've actually seen more growth with the T5 over the last month, with old bulbs. We'll see what the next month brings with the new fixture/bulbs. I do agree tho, that adding some supplemental LED is desirable.

kien
10-28-2013, 05:17 AM
Hold up guys! I need to pop another bag into the nuker..

... okay, continue. :pop2:

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 12:15 PM
Once upon a time, people used to think T5s are just for supplements. And now LED took over that title. Its just part of the evolution :) Don't worry Michael, LED is the future. Its just that, the word "future" represents a very broad spectrum (no pun intended) :smile:

exactly, so it up to the consumer to decide if the technology is there for them now, if not wait, but as I said before if you spend the money on the right LED fixture the technology is already there. But I fear as i said in my RC post (well received I might add,,yeah! or no sorry phewww) people are dumping out LED in many cases because they invested in fixtures that do not employ or do not have the ability to work correctly.

couple of reasons

disco ball - great for a bit of Bony M in the living room on a Saturday night but for growing corals thats a big no no, corals need as someone said above "uniformed spectrum" how on earth do you get that with a glitter ball dancing off the sand bed?

Its all about convergence, getting the LED's to become one, and this is where an LED is made or broken, Mitras spent 2 years getting this right, I know ecotech have their own concepts also. Many others seem to use off the shelf lenses not specifically made for aquariums.

Hybrid T5 - yep I cant knock it, stable OLD technology with some LED's added to try and corner both camps, however even ATi do not see a long term future in the fixture after talking at Macna even they admit LED is the future, its just that not everyone has the money to invest in the fixtures that do perform. So my advise is, dont then, you are wasting your money, either save a little monger and buy the technology that is available, or stick with the trusted methods of T5 or MH.

Nobody that I am aware of has ever said LED is better than either. Well ok I will, (oh crap!) with the right fixture it is better because of the infinite control and the lack of bulb changing, in regards to coral growth and health, no its not "better", but I believe the right fixtures certainly match MH and T5 on that level.

Proteus
10-28-2013, 12:28 PM
Sad part is Michael is that since led have come out it's getting to be harder to find old tech in the new section of the store. With manufactures dropping mh the consumers become forced to buy into new tech to which they may not be able to afford. Hence some people buying cheaper units.

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 12:35 PM
I 100% agree with you on this. And to be honest i am not sure of the answer, dealers will stock what is in demand, if they don't the next store will.

Proteus
10-28-2013, 12:48 PM
I 100% agree with you on this. And to be honest i am not sure of the answer, dealers will stock what is in demand, if they don't the next store will.

Demanded maybe so. But I would think its what's made available to a store front.
My comment earlier about suppliers pushing what they sell also shows this as your not going to push a product you don't offer. As any store would loose sales. That's the way it is.
We all know that earlier tech has done the job. But you know longer hear of great halide tanks other than Kien.
I'm sure if all three lighting styles were pushed buy stores then manufactures may keep distributing them. At least until three lighting types were par on price. And people could afford to take the next step to new tech

I had a time finding halide equip new and I'm sure its a matter of time before bulbs are phased out

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 10:54 PM
well to add some fun into this thread I thought i would start a "can a mitras grow a sorry looking SPS test"

well here are my test subjects both came from the bottom of a friend of mines old tank, he was not even aware the bit of life left in the stag horn even had polyps let alone colour.

Just for fun lets see what the Mitras can do with these two in the next month.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/892202_542194142525701_731163842_o.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1385878_542194082525707_630668607_n.jpg

Oh and here is the test bed ;) (not the best shot I might add)

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1378499_542196342525481_968103152_n.jpg

kien
10-28-2013, 11:06 PM
well to add some fun into this thread I thought i would start a "can a mitras grow a sorry looking SPS test"

It boggles my mind that in this day and age, that anyone would even be asking this question. We've seen over and over again how LEDs can grow and colour SPS. This has been demonstrated over and over and over and over again. SPOILER ALERT: the answer is yes.

Yes, some people with current LED fixtures are ditching them, but not so much because their LED couldn't grow SPS. They are ditching them because they simply prefer the look of a different lighting technology. This doesn't mean that LEDs suck or that LEDs don't work. They simply did not prefer that LED light. It's as simple as that!

To me this is the equivalent of trying to convince someone that they need a Ferrari. Can a Ferrari get you to the grocery store and back? Yes it can. Does everyone need a Ferrari to take them to the grocery store and back? No. Should everyone WANT a Ferrari just because it's the hottest looking piece of tailpipe on the road? No ! But we all know that a Ferrari can in fact take you to the grocery store. Just because a bunch of people prefer to get to the grocery store by other means does not mean that the Ferrari is a piece of junk. Do we really need to conduct more polls and tests to see if a Ferrari can get you to the grocery store?! :rolleyes:

</soapbox>
</rant>

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 11:09 PM
I disagree, reading through this thread and the very similar one on RC there are more than a few posting they are ditching LED because they do not believe they can grow corals or produce colour.

If the argument is not that, then why would you ditch LED and go back to T5 or MH? I think im losing the plot here in all this to be honest :silly:

kien
10-28-2013, 11:19 PM
I disagree, reading through this thread and the very similar one on RC there are more than a few posting they are ditching LED because they do not believe they can grow corals or produce colour.

I don't know what rock those people are living under, because clearly "those people" did not see our current TANK OF THE MONTH, or Dez's Tank, or Asylumdown's awesome Radion tank, or the past RC Tank of the Month. I could go on and on.. Seriously, there are examples of nice LED tanks EVERYWHERE.

If the argument is not that, then why would you ditch LED and go back to T5 or MH? I think im losing the plot here in all this to be honest :silly:

I already answered this. The argument (if we can call it that), is simply that some people do not prefer how it looks to them. This is all very subjective which means you can't, and shouldn't be trying to tell someone what they should and should not like. I don't like Ferraris. This doesn't mean that they are crap or that they don't work. If someone were to give me a Ferarri I wouldn't want it! I would give it back or donate it to charity. This doesn't mean the Ferrari is crap! It simply means I do not prefer it. In fact, if someone were to give me 3 free Mitras today, I would not install them. This DOES NOT mean that they are crap or that they don't work! This just means that I do not want to run them. Why can't someone not want something ??

And on that train of thought, it has been proven that some corals will appear different under the various light technologies. This again is yet another reason why people simply PREFER one technology over another. They might simply PREFER how corals appear under a particular technology.

Proteus
10-28-2013, 11:36 PM
I like the look of the water with the radion.but I love it under halide. Less shadowing. I could have solved that with another radion but on a 24" tank it's pointless
I didn't care for that much shimmer of the led
Growth rate for me...some pieces grew under led some not so much. But I will say growth has double under the halide.
As for color. I am seeing more color with the halide. Plain and simple. I have one piece that was green under the radion and now is blue violet with green and yellow undertones. So nice I had to name it ;)

I do miss the amount of blues I can add with led but its a factor I can live with or fix.

Reef Pilot
10-28-2013, 11:38 PM
Yes, some people with current LED fixtures are ditching them, but not so much because their LED couldn't grow SPS. They are ditching them because they simply prefer the look of a different lighting technology. This doesn't mean that LEDs suck or that LEDs don't work. They simply did not prefer that LED light. It's as simple as that!

You know, I really don't understand this whole ditching LEDs discussion. As I mentioned earlier, I used to have T5s before I went to Radions, and can't imagine going back. No question, they are a lot cooler and cost less energy, incl less chiller running. And yet some here have argued otherwise!!! Don't know what they are smoking...

As for the looks, yes, T5s are nice, but I can adjust my LED colours to anything I want, and by time of day. I can make SPS glow, if I want...

I run mine on the Natural Mode which simulates the sun through the day, and my corals seem to really like it. SPS keeps growing like crazy and getting good colour out of everything. I tried playing with different colours, but I honestly don't like the "artificial" look. And I have seen some tanks like that, and each to their own, I guess.

IMO, I think a lot of non-LED users here are being very much misled. Maybe some LEDs are not as good, and maybe some people don't know how to use theirs properly with all the different settings and adjustments.

But my Radions (both Gen 1s and Gen 2s) have all worked flawlessly from day 1, and I couldn't be happier with them.

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 11:39 PM
Ok so back to square one, the original question who else is ditching LED for other options

we have proved LED works if you employ the right fixture, we have proved T5 work we have proved MH work.

so what other options other than the above are people moving to? Am i missing some new technology?

In regards to the point people are dumping LED because they dont like the look, I find this impossible to understand as (again) providing you are using a worthy fixture if you dont like the look just change the spectrum, easier than you can with any T5 or MH.

So the argument is not growth not colour, not health ........Ok Im lost :redface:

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 11:40 PM
You know, I really don't understand this whole ditching LEDs discussion. As I mentioned earlier, I used to have T5s before I went to Radions, and can't imagine going back. No question, they are a lot cooler and cost less energy, incl less chiller running. And yet some here have argued otherwise!!! Don't know what they are smoking...

As for the looks, yes, T5s are nice, but I can adjust my LED colours to anything I want, and by time of day. I can make SPS glow, if I want...

I run mine on the Natural Mode which simulates the sun through the day, and my corals seem to really like it. SPS keeps growing like crazy and getting good colour out of everything. I tried playing with different colours, but I honestly don't like the "artificial" look. And I have seen some tanks like that, and each to their own, I guess.

IMO, I think a lot of non-LED users here are being very much misled. Maybe some LEDs are not as good, and maybe some people don't know how to use theirs properly with all the different settings and adjustments.

But my Radions (both Gen 1s and Gen 2s) have all worked flawlessly from day 1, and I couldn't be happier with them.

excellent post :) well written.

jorjef
10-28-2013, 11:48 PM
The latter half of this thread make me want to unplug my tank and let it die...

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 11:50 PM
The latter half of this thread make me want to unplug my tank and let it die...

I hear where you are coming from, I think the plot has been lost. Or I have simply lost the plot ;)

reefwars
10-28-2013, 11:51 PM
It seems more and more people are coming out of the lighting closet. Who else is ditching their LEDs for other options??

:bump:

waynemah
10-28-2013, 11:53 PM
I was able to grow huge colonies from frags with LED. But when you want the coverage and brightness, you need to spend big $$$. This is where the line was drawn for me.

Maybe LED's have too many options and not enough testing. You can easily tune yourself out of an acceptable range for your corals. I would invest in an LED again if there were limited presets with static height/coverage requirements. Don't over sell/rate your product and give the customer an educated recipe for optimal coral color and growth.

Aqua-Digital
10-28-2013, 11:57 PM
I would invest in an LED again if there were limited presets with static height/coverage requirements. Don't over sell/rate your product and give the customer an educated recipe for optimal coral color and growth.

This is something that GHL have thought about doing. A cut down unit with known workable presets, bit like using different preset T5 tubes.

sphelps
10-29-2013, 12:04 AM
I think ultimately some people made the original switch to LED for the wrong reasons. Focused too much on the hype of something or the hope of saving money and in the end didn't make sure they bought the right fixture for their needs which may not even exist yet. Doing so will leave a pretty sour taste in your mouth, so moving forward with another expensive LED adventurer can be too much to swallow for some so switching back to something more familiar makes sense.

kien
10-29-2013, 12:06 AM
In regards to the point people are dumping LED because they dont like the look, I find this impossible to understand as (again) providing you are using a worthy fixture if you dont like the look just change the spectrum, easier than you can with any T5 or MH.

I have played with a lot of LED fixtures and have yet to find one that can replicate the evenly distributed light of a T5 fixture.

I don't understand why this is impossible to understand? Let me ask you this, what brand of jeans do you wear, and why do you wear that particular brand of jeans ? There are so many options, why did you pick that one ? I will bet money that we both wear different brands of jeans. Which one is better? NEITHER.

Aqua-Digital
10-29-2013, 12:18 AM
Of course everyone will have different tastes thats why consumerism is king, which kind of makes this whole debate pointless. everyone will have their own opinion.

So here is my opinion - For me my love of LED and I was one of the early adopters was the fact i did not have to change bulbs, I could change the spectrum and intensity at a drop of a hat and they gave off no heat so no need for bulky chiller.

Then came lamps with immense quality and functionality that MH and T5 simply could not provide in ONE package they either had one of the other.

My previous tanks had MH, I loved MH but it could not be dimmed, was costly in bulbs and I needed a chiller. LED's filled the void what MH could not offer.

I now run a lamp on my tank that both i and others that have seen them do believe replicate what MH gives but with brass nobs on ;)

This whole thread is about own perception and opinion, I dont think it will ever prove anything, however to the deepest respect to Aquattro I dont think he was trying to make a point or prove a point just a question that is now way removed from the original post?

jorjef
10-29-2013, 12:26 AM
God please please please close it now.

SeaHorse_Fanatic
10-29-2013, 12:36 AM
I love LEDs too. I have DIY units using 10w emitters in 3 white & 2 blue spectrums, as well as inexpensive Chinese units. I get good colour & growth with my LEDs, never worry about the electric bill or bulb expense or heat. Once I do my switch over to setup my 93g 30" cube, I will be lighting up 3 display & 1 frag tank (total volume 383g & total surface area 26 sq.ft.) using a total of 450w maximum and 370w normal setting.

At my max. I had 10 halides (3x250w DE & 7x 150w DE) generating a tonne of heat (at least I didn't have to turn on the heat in the house in the winter) and needing 10 new bulbs replaced each year. Every summer I had to go on reverse photoperiod, use fans over each tank, and leave windows and doors open late at night to capture some cooler night air. 10 bulbs at say $65 each+tax is about $700+. My electric bill would be through the roof if I still had all those tanks and all those MH (rated at 1800w but actually consumed well over 2000w/hr use).

These DIY units grow my Purple valida and Bonsai great, with deep purple colouration. Great for LPS & anemones, which is mostly what I'm into.

So I'm another LED convert (over 2 years now) who will be sticking with LEDs.

Aquattro
10-29-2013, 12:37 AM
I think ultimately some people made the original switch to LED for the wrong reasons. Focused too much on the hype of something or the hope of saving money and in the end didn't make sure they bought the right fixture for their needs which may not even exist yet. Doing so will leave a pretty sour taste in your mouth, so moving forward with another expensive LED adventurer can be too much to swallow for some so switching back to something more familiar makes sense.

For me, I moved to LED to reduce moisture in the house, which it did very well. And they also kept about 95% of the color for over the year I used them. Pretty impressed with that. They also have dimming capabilities, which is pretty cool. Another plus! But, I would rather have 100% of the color, which T5 is giving me. T5 is also an unfamiliar technology to me, I've never used them. But so far I'm impressed. My chiller comes on as much with them as it did with LED. The light looks nicer, the corals look nicer. I do not have dimming. I have to change bulbs. Both are negligible at my point in the hobby. I do not for a second believe any other brand or model of LED would have been different. They just don't provide what I'm looking for. I may even start liking my T5 better than MH. I know, right?? :)

Madreefer
10-29-2013, 12:43 AM
God please please please close it now.

What? It's a great topic. Kind of what this site is about rather than a thread about "What is a corporation".

I bought my LEDs cause it was the newset and coolest and big hype at the time. Did'nt do as much research as I should have, but I was on a budget. I chose AIs and glad I did. I dont consider them a low end set of lights as many of you call them. There's alot of tweaking involved and trial and error to try and get that look from T5s and MHs and many have acheived it or are damn close. I'm happy and wont be getting out of the latest fad. The Hydras are IME a way better light than the Sols and Vega's

thmh
10-29-2013, 12:51 AM
+1 for great thread!

~Tony

jorjef
10-29-2013, 01:01 AM
What? It's a great topic. Kind of what this site is about rather than a thread about "What is a corporation".
s

Yes the subject is very appropriate and I like reading about others experiences and opinions but its someones relentless push to have everyone conform to their way of thinking and opinion that has me a wee bit bent. I have LED and think they're fine.

Aquattro
10-29-2013, 01:14 AM
I have LED and think they're fine.

And you'd be right. They are fine. Nothing wrong with them, even the "cheap" AIs :) They do a really nice job, have great features not available with any other technology and grow corals as advertised. And depending on the tank owned, there may be nothing better. I did like many aspects of mine, but in a mature SPS tank, where I've watched the progression from MH to LED to T5, they were not the best for my tank. Nothing wrong with that, I wished they were enough, because I lost a lot of money selling them -lol I loved the dimming and control of the color (although once set, it's done).
I see tones in my SPS color now that I didn't even have with MH, so the decision, for my tank, was to not use them. That may not apply to the majority of people running various styles of reefs

jorjef
10-29-2013, 01:19 AM
If you think I was referring to you believe me you couldn't be further from the truth. You have very little to loose with unfavourable posts on LED's. .... The other,not so much. :mrgreen:

mrhasan
10-29-2013, 01:23 AM
Yes the subject is very appropriate and I like reading about others experiences and opinions but its someones relentless push to have everyone conform to their way of thinking and opinion that has me a wee bit bent. I have LED and think they're fine.

I am pretty sure that no one is "relentlessly pushing". It has been mentioned a lot of time in this thread that in the end, its personal choice. From my perspective, I haven't complained anywhere in this thread about "growth" or "color". Infact, I didn't start commenting till Michael came forth with the "cost" issue. That's where I start. THE COST. I have also said LEDs has lots of bells and whistles that comes down to personal preference. I don't have problem with that. I don't have problem with growth/color because I have never used LED to judge those two parameters. But when someone comes down to tell me, "hey get a $1000 LED for the tank and you gonna save lot of electricity and money", that's where I have problem. Color/growth: these are upto Nick, Denny and Brad to comment on, they moved away from LED after using it. I hope that clears things up. :) Its all about proof. Electricity and cost are just numbers and nothing related to experience. BCHydro/Enmax won't come over to check whether you are using LEDs and charge you accordingly :lol:

For me, I moved to LED to reduce moisture in the house, which it did very well. And they also kept about 95% of the color for over the year I used them. Pretty impressed with that. They also have dimming capabilities, which is pretty cool. Another plus! But, I would rather have 100% of the color, which T5 is giving me. T5 is also an unfamiliar technology to me, I've never used them. But so far I'm impressed. My chiller comes on as much with them as it did with LED. The light looks nicer, the corals look nicer. I do not have dimming. I have to change bulbs. Both are negligible at my point in the hobby. I do not for a second believe any other brand or model of LED would have been different. They just don't provide what I'm looking for. I may even start liking my T5 better than MH. I know, right?? :)

To Michael: LEDs doesn't necessarily eliminate chiller like I have mentioned earlier with proof. And there you go :) I didn't make that up ;)

You know, I really don't understand this whole ditching LEDs discussion. As I mentioned earlier, I used to have T5s before I went to Radions, and can't imagine going back. No question, they are a lot cooler and cost less energy, incl less chiller running. And yet some here have argued otherwise!!! Don't know what they are smoking...

As for the looks, yes, T5s are nice, but I can adjust my LED colours to anything I want, and by time of day. I can make SPS glow, if I want...

I run mine on the Natural Mode which simulates the sun through the day, and my corals seem to really like it. SPS keeps growing like crazy and getting good colour out of everything. I tried playing with different colours, but I honestly don't like the "artificial" look. And I have seen some tanks like that, and each to their own, I guess.

IMO, I think a lot of non-LED users here are being very much misled. Maybe some LEDs are not as good, and maybe some people don't know how to use theirs properly with all the different settings and adjustments.

But my Radions (both Gen 1s and Gen 2s) have all worked flawlessly from day 1, and I couldn't be happier with them.

Since I am the only non-LED user over here, I would like to be pointed out where I mislead. Cost-benefit? Electricity savings? Well, that's the two part I talked about. There's obviously a cut-off region for those two to get inverted from their typical outcome (the numbers of years for cost-benefit would significantly decrease and electricity savings will be huge) but those are for HUGE tank sizes. Like a 8' or a 10' tank.

To Michael (again :P): I would love to get some numbers from you. Can you please give me the electricity consumption of your system (with LED and without chiller) for a month? Another number, that I am also hoping to get from you or you can collect it from someone with a similar system with a similar location, is the electricity consumption with T5/MH/both. I don't need the Watt (that's gonna be higher for MH anyways) but I need the KWh consumption for a month. This will not only help me (to prove me wrong or right) but will possibly be a good for you. :mrgreen: Will really appreciate if you can give me those two numbers :) Kill-a-watt meters are fine :)

jorjef
10-29-2013, 01:27 AM
No not you Mr. H.

Aquattro
10-29-2013, 01:39 AM
Electricity savings?



This is another selling point. But again, for me, I don't give a damn about electricity costs. I run a giant box of water in my livingroom, that is an expensive undertaking :) If it costs 20 or 200/month, I don't care. I want the best SPS I can grow.

Doug
10-29-2013, 01:44 AM
God please please please close it now.

Whys that. I agree, its a great thread and another said what a reefing board should be about.

I disagree, reading through this thread and the very similar one on RC there are more than a few posting they are ditching LED because they do not believe they can grow corals or produce colour.

If the argument is not that, then why would you ditch LED and go back to T5 or MH? I think im losing the plot here in all this to be honest :silly:

Have to agree Michael. Thats totally what I thought it was about, reading both here and RC.


Thats the only reason I,m looking at T-5 lighting. Why would one do that otherwise. A 6 bulb and bulbs is close to the sale price of the Mitras, so I cant agree with those saying cost is a factor. Not to mention the people switching to hydrids at twice the cost.

Doug
10-29-2013, 01:45 AM
I run a giant box of water in my livingroom, that is an expensive undertaking :)



:lol:

mrhasan
10-29-2013, 01:56 AM
This is another selling point. But again, for me, I don't give a damn about electricity costs. I run a giant box of water in my livingroom, that is an expensive undertaking :) If it costs 20 or 200/month, I don't care. I want the best SPS I can grow.

:lol: That's a very practical answer. We put in corals worth thousands of $ and then we fight over who got to save couple 10s by investing $1000+. Gotta put an LED manufacturer in Dragon's Den :lol: Electricity is cheap! Go to Europe, its a completely different stories, they need electricity savings since its about 3 to 5 times higher than that of Canada.

If Michael gives me the numbers, that's gonna tell the true story of how much "savings" one is actually having. :)

Aquattro
10-29-2013, 01:57 AM
Michael, sorry missed the part where you said "there are more than a few posting they are ditching LED because they do not believe they can grow corals or produce colour"

I agree this is crap. LED grow coral just fine, and produce beautiful colors. Anyone ditching because of that is perhaps doing other things wrong.

I'm ditching because I can get slightly better color from other technologies. Not that LED didn't do the job, just didn't do it well enough for my personal tastes and my tank. As I said, for many tanks, LED may be the best solution!

Aquattro
10-29-2013, 01:59 AM
If Michael gives me the numbers, that's gonna tell the true story of how much "savings" one is actually having. :)

Problem is, numbers will be different for each tank. It depends on unit, number of units, power profile, dimming settings, etc. While running lights in full might be cheaper, having the sunset, sunrise and moonlights going might offset that savings. But again, who cares??

mrhasan
10-29-2013, 02:04 AM
Problem is, numbers will be different for each tank. It depends on unit, number of units, power profile, dimming settings, etc. While running lights in full might be cheaper, having the sunset, sunrise and moonlights going might offset that savings. But again, who cares??

Yah. Hence I asked Michael since might be able to help using similar setups: one with halide, one with LED. No parameters, no nothing: I am not bothered about how the corals will grow and color. I just need the consumption.

Well, I don't care as well but it bothers me when saving is factored in and when I try to point out why that's not justified, I get the flames :lol:

Reef Pilot
10-29-2013, 02:09 AM
Since I am the only non-LED user over here, I would like to be pointed out where I mislead. Cost-benefit? Electricity savings? Well, that's the two part I talked about. There's obviously a cut-off region for those two to get inverted from their typical outcome (the numbers of years for cost-benefit would significantly decrease and electricity savings will be huge) but those are for HUGE tank sizes. Like a 8' or a 10' tank.


This is a pretty fast moving thread.... But please don't get mad at me...LOL. I did not say or suggest that you or any non-LED users were misleading. Instead I said you were being misled,... big difference.

And in your case specifically, you are probably a good example of this. You have no direct experience with LED, yet you seem to be taking the side against LEDs and choose who you want to quote or back up your argument. If you want to talk about cost savings, why don't you go back and read my earlier post in this thread where I gave some real data on my usage and savings.

mrhasan
10-29-2013, 02:18 AM
This is a pretty fast moving thread.... But please don't get mad at me...LOL. I did not say or suggest that you or any non-LED users were misleading. Instead I said you were being misled,... big difference.

And in your case specifically, you are probably a good example of this. You have no direct experience with LED, yet you seem to be taking the side against LEDs and choose who you want to quote or back up your argument. If you want to talk about cost savings, why don't you go back and read my earlier post in this thread where I gave some real data on my usage and savings.

There's nothing to be mad over here. :lol: There's are all healthy arguments and thats why the forum is for. :mrgreen:

I am not taking side again't LED, I am being against the cost savings :razz:

Aha, found the numbers. Sorry I didn't notice that post :redface: Can you please let me know how many T5s were you running (including the watt and the hours of running) and how many radions (which model? that will factor in the cost) you are running over the two tanks? I will do a calculation and see how things look. Your numbers are something that I needed. Thanks for posting those btw :D

Madreefer
10-29-2013, 02:21 AM
I wish I could compare the cost of MH vs LED. The week I switched over from MHs to LED there was a smart meter installed on my house. My hydro bill stayed the same at $500 for 2 months. Im getting hammered on with out getting dinner first:lol: But smart meters are a different topic all together.

mrhasan
10-29-2013, 02:22 AM
I wish I could compare the cost of MH vs LED. The week I switched over from MHs to LED there was a smart meter installed on my house. My hydro bill stayed the same at $500 for 2 months. Im getting hammered on with out getting dinner first:lol: But smart meters are a different topic all together.

Yah lets not bring any more variables :lol:

AdamsB
10-29-2013, 02:26 AM
When setting up my 90 gallon I had 3 main research points. What skimmer, do I run a fuge, what kind of lighting. I guess I went budget on all those questions. I didn't know if I'd ever get into sps, but wanted a light capable of providing that. Now that I'm mostly LPS and SPS and graduated away from colt corals and mushrooms I'm glad I did.

I had 3 main reasons for going LED with the evergrow it2080. One, I didn't want to deal with changing bulbs. Two, I knew if I just wanted low light coral I could turn my light down. If I wanted sps I could cater to that too. Three, I wanted to cover my 90 gallon with one unit. I felt the AI would have an issue with the centre brace. While my unit does shadow slightly, it's very minimal.

These are my reasons and they may be wrong due to lack of hands on experience with other lighting methods. I just couldn't justify spending well over 1000 dollars on a light at the time when there was a perfectly suitable unit for half that price.

As for results, I'm very happy. Everything is growing, sps, lps and zoas. I will admit that I bought coral online and I don't have quite the coloration that the pictures depicted, but that could be more a me problem than the led unit. I am however going to keep an eye on things/tweak my channels to see If I can get better coloration and possibly add a t5 light to the equation if I don't get the results I want. I should also mention that I don't add any kinds of supplements, just water changes.

Aquattro
10-29-2013, 02:27 AM
I wish I could compare the cost of MH vs LED. The week I switched over from MHs to LED there was a smart meter installed on my house. My hydro bill stayed the same at $500 for 2 months. Im getting hammered on with out getting dinner first:lol: But smart meters are a different topic all together.

Ya, I got mine exactly at switch over time on LEDs, and bill never changed. Not even flowers....

Reef Pilot
10-29-2013, 02:38 AM
There's nothing to be mad over here. :lol: There's are all healthy arguments and thats why the forum is for. :mrgreen:

I am not taking side again't LED, I am being against the cost savings :razz:

Aha, found the numbers. Sorry I didn't notice that post :redface: Can you please let me know how many T5s were you running (including the watt and the hours of running) and how many radions (which model? that will factor in the cost) you are running over the two tanks? I will do a calculation and see how things look. Your numbers are something that I needed. Thanks for posting those btw :D

Well, that's good (liking healthy arguments). Candor without malice, is what we used to say in the corporate world where I worked.

We used to live and die by all the numbers, and stretched and shrunk them every quarter (with the help of our creative accountants) to make our owners and shareholders happy. But I'm retired now, and have to say I hate numbers now, and do my best not to overly manage my personal finance, including how much I spend on reefing, etc. I just know it is a lot, and anything I can do to cut it back a bit (without compromising the quality and pleasure of my hobby experience) is good. So, no, I am not going to get out the meters and check my exact power usage, or calculate all my equipment cost and depreciation, etc. That would take much of the fun out of this hobby...

All I can tell you, is that my canopy (6 foot tank) was totally jammed with T5s before. They were very hot, and I know used a lot of power, incl the chiller and all the bulb costs. My LEDs on the other hand are very cool (in comparison to the T5s), and are basically maintenance free. Any adjustments are made with my computer.

intarsiabox
10-29-2013, 02:39 AM
Ya, I got mine exactly at switch over time on LEDs, and bill never changed. Not even flowers....

Don't feel too bad we don't have smart meters but still get dinged the same way. My dad (retired, so has some spare time) kept his power bills for two years and compared the actual cost of electricity vs all the extra fees on the bill. Any time actual usage costs were down the others fees went up, when usage cost went up the fees went down. Over all the bills didn't change much regardless of electricity used. I have switched my house lights to CF bulbs, went from MH to LED's, don't leave lights on that I don't need, etc. and have yet to see any of this make any real difference to the bottom line of what I pay for electricity.

mrhasan
10-29-2013, 02:41 AM
Well, that's good (liking healthy arguments). Candor without malice, is what we used to say in the corporate world where I worked.

We used to live and die by all the numbers, and stretched and shrunk them every quarter (with the help of our creative accountants) to make our owners and shareholders happy. But I'm retired now, and have to say I hate numbers now, and do my best not to overly manage my personal finance, including how much I spend on reefing, etc. I just know it is a lot, and anything I can do to cut it back a bit (without compromising the quality and pleasure of my hobby experience) is good. So, no, I am not going to get out the meters and check my exact power usage, or calculate all my equipment cost and depreciation, etc. That would take much of the fun out of this hobby...

All I can tell you, is that my canopy (6 foot tank) was totally jammed with T5s before. They were very hot, and I know used a lot of power, incl the chiller and all the bulb costs. My LEDs on the other hand are very cool (in comparison to the T5s), and are basically maintenance free. Any adjustments are made with my computer.

No no no you don't to take out the meters. Just the numbers of T5s, the watt of heaters T5s and the radion gen and how many. I sent you a PM for convenience. Just the name plate numbers :)

Aquattro
10-29-2013, 02:48 AM
Any adjustments are made with my computer.

Oh, I miss this too :) Although once adjusted, they were set and forget. Although I can set the timers via computer still. I can turn my T5 off. Then on. Then off again. I can actually do this with my phone. But I haven't been that bored yet -lol