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Old 12-19-2013, 05:52 PM  
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Aqua-Digital Aqua-Digital is offline
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Default TM balling webinar synopsis

Many thanks to those that joined our webinar.

One of the highly important topics that came up was the question of imbalances and as the slide show was clear to show, once explained it makes so much sense. I will try my best to put some of that info here.

If anyone highlights an inaccuracy to what I have written please let me know and I will happily address that in the thread openly.

Hearing about the relationship between the ions of Calcium chloride and sodium Bi-carbonate was fascinating especially how the coral polyp takes in the calcium ion from the calcium chloride element and the carbonate ion from the sodium element and what is left behind is your imbalance.

Left behind is sodium from the Bi-carbonate and chloride from the calcium, these two together of course make sodium chloride, and here lies the imbalance in 3 part, all of a sudden you have extra sodium chloride with no other elements attached to it floating around in your tank, and by doing a water change you are only removing the percentage of that water change of the imbalance.

So if you are dosing 2 or 3 part light systems and rely on water changes alone to address the imbalance you are only removing for example on a 10% water change, 10% of that imbalance.

Now - by adding into the mix Part C the remaining sodium chloride has something to balance it which includes the 70 trace elements

Now of course there is an argument that this system too raises your sodium chloride level, and yes you are right, BUT and here is the defining factor, it is doing it in a balanced format in the same way you would be doing by adding more sea salt to your system, because it is balanced there is no ionic risks, and even the most minimal water change would cater for any salinity rise, however due to being in balance and such a very low level this is not an issue, where as an unbalanced system with just sodium chloride floating about is.

What is an issue however are 3 part or light systems that allow for free amounts of sodium chloride in your system with nothing to balance it allowing for a complete imbalance that can not be addressed wholly by water changes as you only remove the % of water change and as such only remove that % of imbalance.

There is only one way to keep a system in balance when dosing calcium and sodium Bi-carbonate and that is to add in proportion NACL free salt. (Part C)

To make the point clearer, the very first original Sea Salt mix from Tropic marin that still to this day forms the basis of all their salts is a 100% mixture of A B and C of the Tropic Marin Balling system together!

So there is no argument chemistry in itself proves it, if you dose a system with nothing to balance the excess NACL you create an imbalance, and this is where part C comes in which is made up of everythign you find in a sea salt mix including all trace elements without adding additional NACL, hence the term for part C as NACL-FREE sea salt. But lets be clear Part C is not just magnesium as in every other other 3 part system, it is the whole bells and whistles found in sea salt as stated before WITHOUT any NACL component.

This is why Tropic marin balling from the inventor Hans-werner balling is so popular to those that care about doing this 100% right.

 


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Old 01-04-2014, 08:10 PM
Ron99 Ron99 is offline
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Well, I don't have time to run a spreadsheet and financial analysis right now but from what I've seen of many (not all, but many) additives and supplements, the costs add up to a great deal over time and the savings can likewise add up over time.

As for the whole issue of balanced dosing, I'm not disputing the principal but I will also suggest that I don't think it's even possible to completely "balance" your dosing as each system will be different depending on size, livestock, livestock types and various rates of consumption of a wide range of different elements by different types of corals or algae or clams etc.

Just my thoughts on it all. Plenty of people over the years seem to get by perfectly well and have stunning reef tanks with nothing more than regular water changes and perhaps regular two or three part dosing or running a calcium reactor etc.
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Old 01-04-2014, 08:17 PM
Aqua-Digital Aqua-Digital is offline
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All comes down to if you want to do it right as nature intends or try and bend the rules to suit a budget. If you want to do it "naturally" right then this system offers that for you.

The battle of a reefer is chemistry if we can help simplify this and take away the risk factors then I believe the product is worth it.
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:09 PM
Ron99 Ron99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital View Post
All comes down to if you want to do it right as nature intends or try and bend the rules to suit a budget. If you want to do it "naturally" right then this system offers that for you.

The battle of a reefer is chemistry if we can help simplify this and take away the risk factors then I believe the product is worth it.
I guess this is where I have a bit of a problem when you make the implication that this is the "right" way and other ways are not "right". As I've been trying to say, there are many ways to dose and maintain tank chemistry and claiming that one is right and the others aren't is a bit bold IMO. Plenty of people have stunning tanks using other methods or products as well. The TM ones may be good but so can others too. That's my point.

And I think that tanks may vary in their requirements for different trace elements depending on their livestock. For example, someone growing some ornamental macro algae or a fuge full of macro algae may need to dose more iron or iodine than someone not. And even that is questionable. Here's a great write up by Randy Holmes-Farley on trace element dosing:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/
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Old 01-06-2014, 05:18 PM
Aqua-Digital Aqua-Digital is offline
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Even the 3 part system that is talked about on reefkeeping now advocates the use of NACL free salt, interesting the recent change. However the NACL free you can get will not have all the trace elements found in your sea salt mix.

This is not about adding extra elements as pointed out above its about making a balance and to do that you have to replicate everything that is in your sea salt mix minus the sodium chloride.

why minus the sodium chloride?...... because you bi product of your 2 part dosing is sodium chloride. its already there free swimming looking for the NACL to bind to, the added benefit of the Tropic marin system is that the NACL also comes with the same amount of trace elements in your salt mix and in doing so constantly re vitalizes your tank with them.

The whole point of the system is about balance, not about trace elements that are added as an '"addition" to your system.

Your are re balancing the basics, not the complexes.
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:43 PM
Ron99 Ron99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital View Post
Even the 3 part system that is talked about on reefkeeping now advocates the use of NACL free salt, interesting the recent change. However the NACL free you can get will not have all the trace elements found in your sea salt mix.

This is not about adding extra elements as pointed out above its about making a balance and to do that you have to replicate everything that is in your sea salt mix minus the sodium chloride.

why minus the sodium chloride?...... because you bi product of your 2 part dosing is sodium chloride. its already there free swimming looking for the NACL to bind to, the added benefit of the Tropic marin system is that the NACL also comes with the same amount of trace elements in your salt mix and in doing so constantly re vitalizes your tank with them.

The whole point of the system is about balance, not about trace elements that are added as an '"addition" to your system.

Your are re balancing the basics, not the complexes.
I think I made it clear that I understand the proposition of the "balanced" dosing that Dr. Balling proposes. That's not the question. I simply wonder if there's really a need to do so beyond simple water changes and possibly dosing for CA, Alk and Mg if need be. Ca and Alk are the two big ones that can potentially cause problems. The rest not so much unless something is way out of whack.

Has Dr. Balling done any analysis in reef tanks to measure the consumption rates of all the other minor and trace elements to determine what dosing is required of them? Can he/you provide that data or a link to it?
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:48 PM
Aqua-Digital Aqua-Digital is offline
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The need as said in many thread previous is because a water change ONLY changes the % of imbalance in the water change, so for example as i said before if you do a 10% water change you are only addressing 10% of the imbalance same as you only remove 10% bad nutrients.

the only way to achieve the same with a water change is by 100% change
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Old 01-07-2014, 06:18 PM
Ron99 Ron99 is offline
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You are assuming that the trace and minor elements are being consumed at a rate higher than 10% (very simplified number for what is a complicated system). That's why I would like to see some data on the consumption rates of all these various elements that apparently need to be dosed to replenish them beyond what a water change might accomplish. Randy Holmes-Farley seems to indicate that many are used up very slowly and that our salt mixes contain more than natural sea water in any case. I just don't have time to check all his references right now. I imagine Dr. Balling would have some data on the consumption rates of these various elements in a "typical" reef system and some data on how regular water changes don't replenish them sufficiently thus supporting the use of his supplements. Perhaps you could ask for that or some references?

The chemistry beyond the use of the major elements such as Ca and carbonate is complex and I suspect varies greatly from system to system depending on types of corals and inverts etc. I'm not convinced that this one size fits all solution is best for everyone, let alone even necessary given the low rate of use of uptake of the trace elements and the ability to replenish via water changes.
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Old 01-07-2014, 06:36 PM
Aqua-Digital Aqua-Digital is offline
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Give tropic marin a call ask to speak to Lou he is expecting your call, he will explain everything to you person to person directly.

You should have joined the seminar.
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Old 01-07-2014, 06:45 PM
reeferfulton reeferfulton is offline
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I am currently using this , on week 2 now.
will number the questions i would like addressed
thanks

(1.)I am told that part C is dosed at the same rate as part B. correct ?

if so

The box shows that part C contains 3350mg/l MG , 980mg/l K it does not list any other trace elements.
(2.)This is supposed to be everything from a TM salt bucket less the salt , ca , alk
correct ?

Either way . i am currently dosing 84ml a day of part B . Now if to be balanced i need to be adding 84ml of C then i think i have an issue .
My mag consumption has been very low for the last 5 months . so I have chosen to dose on 20 ml a day of part C. And after 2 weeks my Mg is still 1500.

(3.)SO , I am not Balanced ??
I do 10 percent changes each week . ANd the bucket of IO i am currently using seems to have Mg in the upper 1450's ( tested with red sea, and salifert)

(4.)So how can I add an equal dose of part C to be BALANCED if my Mg is already high?

(5.)Then there is the Question of the 980 mg/l of K in part C . This is pottasium right ?
(6.)I have never tested for potassium . Should i be concerned of an overdose?

thanks for the help
maybe these levels will be driven high too . ?
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Old 01-07-2014, 06:52 PM
Aqua-Digital Aqua-Digital is offline
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1) Yes providing you start with a balanced system i.e all parameters in line with their guidelines which is written on the box. You may find you need to slightly vary away from this depending on your own tanks needs. Its a guideline

2) yes correct all 3 parts A B and C make up NSW minus the sodium Chloride.

3) refer to point #1 you need to balance your system first

4) This also comes down to point #1

You balance your system first by manual dosing once balanced you can work out your daily consumption.
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