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12-19-2013, 05:52 PM
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Member
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,272
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TM balling webinar synopsis
Many thanks to those that joined our webinar.
One of the highly important topics that came up was the question of imbalances and as the slide show was clear to show, once explained it makes so much sense. I will try my best to put some of that info here.
If anyone highlights an inaccuracy to what I have written please let me know and I will happily address that in the thread openly.
Hearing about the relationship between the ions of Calcium chloride and sodium Bi-carbonate was fascinating especially how the coral polyp takes in the calcium ion from the calcium chloride element and the carbonate ion from the sodium element and what is left behind is your imbalance.
Left behind is sodium from the Bi-carbonate and chloride from the calcium, these two together of course make sodium chloride, and here lies the imbalance in 3 part, all of a sudden you have extra sodium chloride with no other elements attached to it floating around in your tank, and by doing a water change you are only removing the percentage of that water change of the imbalance.
So if you are dosing 2 or 3 part light systems and rely on water changes alone to address the imbalance you are only removing for example on a 10% water change, 10% of that imbalance.
Now - by adding into the mix Part C the remaining sodium chloride has something to balance it which includes the 70 trace elements
Now of course there is an argument that this system too raises your sodium chloride level, and yes you are right, BUT and here is the defining factor, it is doing it in a balanced format in the same way you would be doing by adding more sea salt to your system, because it is balanced there is no ionic risks, and even the most minimal water change would cater for any salinity rise, however due to being in balance and such a very low level this is not an issue, where as an unbalanced system with just sodium chloride floating about is.
What is an issue however are 3 part or light systems that allow for free amounts of sodium chloride in your system with nothing to balance it allowing for a complete imbalance that can not be addressed wholly by water changes as you only remove the % of water change and as such only remove that % of imbalance.
There is only one way to keep a system in balance when dosing calcium and sodium Bi-carbonate and that is to add in proportion NACL free salt. (Part C)
To make the point clearer, the very first original Sea Salt mix from Tropic marin that still to this day forms the basis of all their salts is a 100% mixture of A B and C of the Tropic Marin Balling system together!
So there is no argument chemistry in itself proves it, if you dose a system with nothing to balance the excess NACL you create an imbalance, and this is where part C comes in which is made up of everythign you find in a sea salt mix including all trace elements without adding additional NACL, hence the term for part C as NACL-FREE sea salt. But lets be clear Part C is not just magnesium as in every other other 3 part system, it is the whole bells and whistles found in sea salt as stated before WITHOUT any NACL component.
This is why Tropic marin balling from the inventor Hans-werner balling is so popular to those that care about doing this 100% right.
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12-19-2013, 11:44 PM
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Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhasan
Quick Q: you have to dose 125ml of A and 125ml of B at the same time or multiple of that right depending on the depletion rate? Or can the amount of ml of each solution be changed? I can understand you have to dose the same amount of B and C (x ml) but what about A and B?
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A and B you adjust to meet your tanks requirements.
There is a reason why this does not effect any balance it was explained last night but my mind is fried right now, but drop an email here and Lou will explain all
office@tropicmarin-usa.com
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12-19-2013, 11:47 PM
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Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital
A and B you adjust to meet your tanks requirements.
There is a reason why this does not effect any balance it was explained last night but my mind is fried right now, but drop an email here and Lou will explain all
office@tropicmarin-usa.com
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Thanks Michael. I will try to email this weekend when I get some time. I understand the chemistry behind it but I still have some questions 
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12-19-2013, 11:49 PM
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Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron99
And just to add one thing, some of the trace elements listed in your chart would also be extremely expensive and or controlled materials so they are unlikely to be found in the part c complex.
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Hi Ron,
You either believe in the worlds respected author on the subject or not, we cant make anyone not be skeptical, you are basing these arguments on skepticism rather than any facts, we are just highlighting actual facts here.
Put it another way, Hans-werner would not be in the position he is today if half you said was actually true, we have to be realistic to his years of credentials. I could understand being skeptical if this was some new funky product from an unheard of guy but this is coming from the man himself so many have tried to copy since.
I can only suggest you join the next seminar, you can then ask all the questions directly. I really cant say anymore than that.
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12-19-2013, 11:52 PM
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Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhasan
Thanks Michael. I will try to email this weekend when I get some time. I understand the chemistry behind it but I still have some questions 
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For sure Lou is very reachable, he also welcomes phone calls if that's better for you.
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12-19-2013, 11:53 PM
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Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital
For sure Lou is very reachable, he also welcomes phone calls if that's better for you.
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Its alright. I am an email guy 
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12-19-2013, 11:59 PM
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Member
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In the new year Hans-Werner is doing an online hosted RECORDED seminar for everyone to refer back to, we should be one of the first to have a copy of this and will post it here the moment we get it.
I will advertise the next LIVE seminar for the first week of January, I will try and shoot for a Sunday evening.
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12-20-2013, 12:11 AM
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Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua-Digital
Hi Ron,
You either believe in the worlds respected author on the subject or not, we cant make anyone not be skeptical, you are basing these arguments on skepticism rather than any facts, we are just highlighting actual facts here.
Put it another way, Hans-werner would not be in the position he is today if half you said was actually true, we have to be realistic to his years of credentials. I could understand being skeptical if this was some new funky product from an unheard of guy but this is coming from the man himself so many have tried to copy since.
I can only suggest you join the next seminar, you can then ask all the questions directly. I really cant say anymore than that.
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Now you are distracting from the point by simply trying to tout HWB's credentials. Those aren't being questioned. And don't take this as a dig at him but I've seen plenty of products with other well respected people's names on them that delivered less than promised. So simply having a name on it shouldn't be an automatic pass.
Look, I'm not trying to be confrontational but by posting a chart of all the trace elements found in NSW and implying that that is what HWB and TM are providing in this dosing solution is disingenuous. There is no way that he is including elements such as mercury, lead, uranium, gold, platinum, thorium, osmium, hafnium etc.
Also inert gasses such as He, Ar, Ne etc are found in trace amounts in sea water because they dissolve from our atmosphere but have no biological function as well and I doubt you will find those in Part C. Shall I go on?
I have extensive experience in chemistry and biochemistry. I'm not disputing his premise that simple two part dosing may lead to imbalances in important trace elements or in NaCl. What I am saying is that there are several ways to skin a cat and that two or three part dosing along with other brands of trace element solutions that contain those trace elements know to be important to, and used by, corals etc. can accomplish a similar result. That's it.
I guess I just have a problem with the suggestion that only the TM solution will get you to the right end point. I'm sure it works as advertised. That's not being questioned. But other options may work just as well. That's my point.
This hobby tends to be so fad and trend driven with many people chasing the latest thing or product as if it's the holy grail that will give them beautiful successful reef tanks. The implication from all your various posts and threads is that the TM Balling method supplements are the one and only way to accomplish balanced dosing. I'm just suggesting that other options might work too.
That and I'm calling BS on your implication that the TM product contains all of the above from your chart. 
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12-20-2013, 12:43 AM
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Islander
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Think for me it may boil down to cost. Which I can't seem to find yet.
What I learned last night is that part c is all the ingredients normally found in there own salt buckets, less the salt.
So I am waiting for people to just use standard 2 part bulk. And tropic Marin part c
Isn't that still balanced?
They only question that remains is if you believe that TM part a, b are of better purity then bulk.
That's what I am trying to decide
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12-20-2013, 12:47 AM
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Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron99
Now you are distracting from the point by simply trying to tout HWB's credentials. Those aren't being questioned. And don't take this as a dig at him but I've seen plenty of products with other well respected people's names on them that delivered less than promised. So simply having a name on it shouldn't be an automatic pass.
Look, I'm not trying to be confrontational but by posting a chart of all the trace elements found in NSW and implying that that is what HWB and TM are providing in this dosing solution is disingenuous. There is no way that he is including elements such as mercury, lead, uranium, gold, platinum, thorium, osmium, hafnium etc.
Also inert gasses such as He, Ar, Ne etc are found in trace amounts in sea water because they dissolve from our atmosphere but have no biological function as well and I doubt you will find those in Part C. Shall I go on?
I have extensive experience in chemistry and biochemistry. I'm not disputing his premise that simple two part dosing may lead to imbalances in important trace elements or in NaCl. What I am saying is that there are several ways to skin a cat and that two or three part dosing along with other brands of trace element solutions that contain those trace elements know to be important to, and used by, corals etc. can accomplish a similar result. That's it.
I guess I just have a problem with the suggestion that only the TM solution will get you to the right end point. I'm sure it works as advertised. That's not being questioned. But other options may work just as well. That's my point.
This hobby tends to be so fad and trend driven with many people chasing the latest thing or product as if it's the holy grail that will give them beautiful successful reef tanks. The implication from all your various posts and threads is that the TM Balling method supplements are the one and only way to accomplish balanced dosing. I'm just suggesting that other options might work too.
That and I'm calling BS on your implication that the TM product contains all of the above from your chart. 
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UG Ron, read the post, I said this is what is found in NSW not what is found in Part C of course some elements are not there, the ones that either cant be replicated in any sea salt mixture. common sense, please if we are going to have any debate.
As I said before Ron go for it brother fill ya boots show us your DIY system that can do this, when you have produced a part C with everything in it that NSW has minus the NACL and show us the recipe, I think this is a mute point.
If your point is other options may work as well, then yes providing they match what is in part C then you are 100% right.
Nobody has said TM has the exclusive on this, its about doing it right, 3 part is not doing it right where the 3rd part is just MG, thats the whole purpose of this thread.
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12-20-2013, 12:50 AM
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Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reeferfulton
Think for me it may boil down to cost. Which I can't seem to find yet.
What I learned last night is that part c is all the ingredients normally found in there own salt buckets, less the salt.
So I am waiting for people to just use standard 2 part bulk. And tropic Marin part c
Isn't that still balanced?
They only question that remains is if you believe that TM part a, b are of better purity then bulk.
That's what I am trying to decide
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Cost = $49.99 for a starter set. My starter set in my 120 gallon has lasted 6 months, thus far on light loaded tank but increasing.
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