Domolite lime and other lost arts...

reefburnaby · #1 01-22-2002, 01:13 AM

Hi,

Okay...here we go again...domolite

1) Isn't this stuff used in lawns ? How could it be reef safe ?

Well, domolite was actually formed in the ocean...a long long time ago. It is basically, the precipitation of calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate in the ocean. This is same calcium buildup we that we see on our pumps and glass. It actually happens in the ocean too... Over time, the ocean floors are build up with the carbonates and compacted in to limstone, calcite, domolite and etc. As the earth tectonic plates shift and move, some of the limestone deposits get pushed up to form mountains and coast lines. This is where we find dolomite is mine and sold as stuff for lawns. In fact, it is fairly safe and it would have the same contaiminants as playsand (i.e. metal shaving from crushers and such). In fact, how does caribsea ensure all of their sand has no metals....big magnets ? So, it is best to run a magnet through your domolite (or playsand or even Caribsea), so that it is relatively clean. Still think it is unsafe ? Send me a rebutal.

2) Domolite, that's calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonte...if the DSB has low pH (because of CO2 in DSB), then would the magnesium dissolve in to the water and cause problems ?

To a certain degree, magnesium will dissolve in a fairly low pH. But, it is fairly unlikely that pH would be low enough to do that. Although there is a oxygen depleted zone in the DSB for anerobic bacteria, the anerobic bacteria are usually consuming nitrates and they don't produce that much CO2. Unless you are generating a tremenous amount of CO2 (like a calcium reactor with 30 bpm) in a small space, the buffers will absorb the pH drop caused by CO2 (or carbonic acid). Since the pH drop will be very small, the amount of dissolution that can happen in is considered insoluble.

Do I like Caribsea or do I have something against them ?

Actually, I bought my first bag of sand for my tank from Caribsea. I used it on my 20 gal and it seemed to do well. Sadly...it is now inside my calcium reactor [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] But, I think they are a great product, but this stuff is expensive. So, I went and explored alternative ways to build a DSB. Today, I use domolite.

Anything wrong with Calcite/Carbsea ?

The think the thing that confuses me is why is Caribsea sand not white ? By definition, calcium carbonate should be snow white. And yet, Caribsea is not. As Steve (Stircrazy), it is actually kind of yellowish white. My Caribsea is the same off white. Domolite is snow white...

So, I hope that answers some of your questions.

- Victor.

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]

Jeff · #2 01-22-2002, 01:18 AM

Do you get royalties on this stuff in the lower mainland or something? :> Local distributor to the Revy perhaps? :>

Jeff

StirCrazy · #3 01-22-2002, 01:23 AM

Victor, I e-mailed Caribsea this evening inquiring about the chemical make up of there sand. when I get a answer I will post the results.
I don't forsee a problem with them releaseing the make up as it is a natural mined product not a lab created one, so there is no company secreat to hide.

Steve

*disclaimer* I did not do this as I thought there are hiding anything or trying to pull the wool over our eyes, simpily I did this as all this discussion has made me curious.

reefburnaby · #4 01-22-2002, 01:26 AM

Hi,

Good question. Sadly, I don't get royalties from them. How does 1% of sales sound ?

I work as an computer chip design engineer...it doesn't have much to do with domolite.

- Victor.

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]

DJ88 · #5 01-22-2002, 02:13 AM

I’ll start my reply off with this and refer to it through part of my post.

Steve,

There is the assay of Caribsea Aragamax. Save ya the time.

Victor,

I understand how Dolomite is formed. My problem is with the mechanical operations involved. Caribsea states right on the package of their product that there is No metals or harmful Impurities Do you get that on the package of dolomite? Caribsea is putting their name on this statement and to me I will believe it. Read the label. If it is not clear enough to read I will link to the full size image or email it.

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So, it is best to run a magnet through your domolite (or playsand or even Caribsea), so that it is relatively clean. Still think it is unsafe ? Send me a rebutal..

I just ran a magnet through my Aragamax and pulled out nothing. Now if I had a bag of Southdown I would do that immediately. It is playsand, not aquarium grade sand or gravel. How would it look if tanks started crashing and it was due to impurities in the sand? Especially where they state right on the product there is none? They would lose a whole lot of business. They make a fortune off of this sand why risk it?

IMO there are no standards (as there is no need) when dolomite is mined(or there is ones set for lawn requirements only). It is going on your lawn. They aren’t figuring on it being put in a tank with live animals. So what if some oil or hydraulic fluid gets into it. Who cares if the driver takes a leak off the side of the front-end loader? Shards of metal? Who cares. It will corrode in time and move down into the lawn. That is all. Add some Iron into the lawn. It may need it. Maybe some copper who cares, who knows? [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

I care. Why take the chance I say. You have even said it is risky. Why risk an animal’s life to some unknown variable. It’s a game of Russian roulette IMO. Probably you will be fine most of the time But what if you get that bag with a hunk of something in it that will kill off the whole tank? What will you say then to some kid who just started and has invested every cent he has in it? Sorry? I’d rather send that kid to something that is made for his or her tank. If down the road they feel confident enough to experiment and are willing to risk the lives of the animals in that tank so be it. I still won’t recommend it.

With the chemical makeup of the Dolomite I understand that there won’t be massive dissolving of the substrate. But when I see that the main part of dolomite is MgCO3 I get nervous. In seawater you only have small amounts of magnesium in solution. In time your sand bed will dissolve. It takes time, but there is enough of a pH drop to get that breakdown. I run my reactor at 7.0 now and it is dissolving at the same rate as it was well below. So you don’t need the low low pH to break the substrate down. I am seeing this change in depth of my sand bed. So to a small degree it is breaking down releasing the minerals into the water. With the dolomite being 60%MgCO3 what happens when you start introducing all that Mg into the tank?

Randy Holmes-Farley even stated you should probably keep an eye on your Mg levels and if they get to high do water changes. So to me I read that as the Mg can increase in your system. How do the corals react to this increase in Mg? I don’t know. Therein lies my concern. If I don’t know, I won’t do it. That is my point with the chemical make up of Dolomite and how it interacts in my system.

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Sadly...it is now inside my calcium reactor

Wasn’t it Aragamax we were comparing here? [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] j/k

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The think the thing that confuses me is why is Caribsea sand not white ?

Aragamax is not completely CaCO3. See the pic I posted. I am betting that the additional makeup of the sand changes that color. Anyways when it is underwater in my tank it looks white to me. Which is just fine and dandy.

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Are we being "tricked" in to thinking it is pure calcium carbonate ? What is that stuff anywhay ?

I don’t think we are being tricked. They have stated what is in it and made the guarantee of what is contained in the Aragamax right on the package.

In all honesty I am still not convinced that Dolomite is a safe substitute. Caribsea packages and guarantees that it’s product is Pure and Safe. There are so many different distributors of Dolomite that I doubt they all have the same standards as Caribsea for purity…

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

StirCrazy · #6 01-22-2002, 02:22 AM

Um Darren is that the right pic? [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

another question Darren whare did this 60% magnesium come from? this is the content of the dolomite

mighty white dolomite LTD. lime.
it has a guarenteed analysis of
Calcium 30% Magnesium 17%
Calcium Carbonate55% Magnesium Carbonate37%
Nutralizing value expressed as CaCO3 equivelent 96%

size wise it stated
100% passing 10 mesh
86% passing 20 mesh
69% passing 40 mesh
62% passing 60 mesh
46% passing 100 mesh

for a final score of 80

granted it is 37% Magnesium Carbonate but the majority of it is still Calcium Carbonate @ 55%

Steve

DJ88 · #7 01-22-2002, 02:39 AM

Steve,

Sorry if I got my numbers mixed up but I am sure somewhere a make up of one tpye of dol;omite avaiable was 60%. I'll look into it further. Still to me 37% is a lot higher than <1.5%.

Just me tho..

I wanted to add a few points in as well.

Ok Dolomite lime is used for lawns. We all know that. We know the chemical makeup of the dolomite. Another concern I have is what happens to it after it leaves the processing plant?

It is a lawn care product. So where is it stored? With lawn care products. ie. fertilizers, pesticides etc etc. It is stored next to or with all kinds of other chemicals and other items meant for lawn use only. Who is to say if along the way someone didn't accidentally spill a bit of some pesticide or other toxin on the package of dolomite? How do you make sure that this doesn't happen? Once again all it takes is someone getting the worng bag that this has happened and pow. dead tank. Diazanon and Copper sulfate are two chemicals I can think of that are stored in warehouses with Dolomite. I am sure if we were to ask Scott he can tell us about how this stuff is around more things than we can imagine.

Why take the risk? If you want to and are willing to take that chance go for it. I just won't sit and not state my concerns. Killing a tank of corals is not worth saving a few bucks on a substrate.

I don't want you guys to think I am against you or anything. Please don't I just have concerns over using something that is not made for or processed for our tanks going in them. I can go on with more concerns but think I have made my point.

DJ88 · #8 01-22-2002, 02:47 AM

Addendum to my last..

Steve.. I was looking for the place I thougth MgCO3 was 60% and came across a link you posted about Dolomite lime in Washington State.

It took me to the Washington Dept of agriculture. All over the page were links to pesticide and fertilizer management. The page was called Fertilizer Product Info.

I know it's chemical make up is not toxic. But those names make me nervous. Especially when it comes to my tank. I worry about getting anything close to my tank that may harm it in anyway. Heck I am careful with windex anywhere in my apartment. Putting something in that is concidered a fertilizer in the agrigulture industry freaks me out.

Silverfish · #9 01-22-2002, 02:51 AM

Well.. if my tank full of SPS and a couple of clams (in the near future [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] ) crashed because I cheaped out on the substrate, I would be pi$$ed off!!

No question what I use.. not worth the risk. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Like Darren said.. it is an expensive hobby, and the sand is just another part of it.

I have to say it is a bit tough putting out the $ on sugar sand that I did for my tank, and it is only a 55g!! but, on less thing to worry about!

StirCrazy · #10 01-22-2002, 02:59 AM

heh, ya I see your point but dolomite is used forincreasing the ph of soil and that is it. but having said that yes there are lots of dolomites that had additives in them (ie. slow release agents, kalk type lime, ect.) that is why it is important you make sure what kinda dolomite you are looking at.

Darren, that picture you posted doesent show the make up of Caribsea it is the picture of how to use a power head to clear your sand bed faster [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] but that was good also as I wanted to see that again [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Steve