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Old 01-21-2016, 04:00 PM
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Default Nano Bubble Injection

I was just browsing through another website:

https://reefbuilders.com/2016/01/16/...ely-different/ scroll halfway down.

and came across an interesting idea, nano bubble injection. The idea is to flood the tank with nano bubbles in an effort to turn the whole tank into a sort of skimmer in order to float junk into the overflow and on to the skimmer, promote oxygen/co2 transfer and ion exchange and somehow encourage stable PH on the counter evening cycle.

What do you guys think?

Here are the links from the page for your convenience:

https://www.facebook.com/15117056990...type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/15117056990...type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/15117056990...type=3&theater
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:05 PM
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Thought that's what skimmers were for... My knee-jerk reaction is it seems gimmicky.
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albert_dao View Post
Thought that's what skimmers were for... My knee-jerk reaction is it seems gimmicky.
Really? The skimmer can only skim things that get to it, this looks like it might be one way to help move that stuff on into the skimmer or macro fuge or ATS.

Enjoy a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2SmBIZVd0Y

Last edited by soapy; 01-21-2016 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:42 PM
albert_dao albert_dao is offline
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Again, I'd argue it seems gimmicky. Skimmers skim what they get at. This concept has a finality --- The skimmer. Excuse my lack of enthusiasm, but the whole "promote oxygen/co2 transfer and ion exchange and somehow encourage stable PH on the counter evening cycle" screams of overselling. If this were a thing, the skimmer is already doing it. I don't see how this adds to what good water movement isn't already doing. Moreover, let's give it the benefit of the doubt and say it IS doing this stuff - still seems like diminishing returns.

The vid seems like a cheeky poke at me...
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Old 01-21-2016, 07:07 PM
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Micro bubbles in tank stick to everything including rock and glass this is a horrible idea.
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:59 PM
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So we know how a skimmer works, tiny bubbles are generated which use surface tension and electrical attraction to attract proteins and oils and then lift them to the top of the skimmer where the bubbles burst and deposit the proteins. That attraction and buoyancy is what is lifting those nasties. In the display tank we use water movement to move detritus from settling among other purposes. You can do a pretty good job of moving detritus around and lots of it is pushed into the overflow and on down to the skimmer. But some of the heavier stuff has a tendency to tumble around on the bottom and in lower flow areas. Have you ever watched a copepod molt tumble around in the water column for 10 minutes and finally get lodged somewhere in the rocks? The idea of lifting this heavier stuff using the extra buoyancy of micro bubbles I believe has merit. Instead of over cranking your pumps and pounding your corals with extra high flow instead buoyancy could do some of the work to lift that junk over the weir? Makes sense to me.

Are bubbles bad for fish and corals? This has been debated and I believe it has mostly been shown to be false. Especially for reef crest and upper reef species. Perhaps some of the deep water corals may be affected by bubbles? Probably sponges? So if you were to blast your tank with bubbles I would suggest putting those animals in areas of lower flow or away from where the bubbles are going. Pretty much the same way we put low flow loving corals in low flow, high light lovers in high light, etc. Fringing reefs get pounded by bubbles most days it is a one hundred percent natural occurrence. I would be surprised if they were not accustomed to it and in fact adapted for it.

So I happened to have a limewood bubbler so I've done a few tests now. I stuck it under the front edge of a return pump in my sump. Visible bubbles were filling about half the tank. The fish didn't seem to care much. In fact I have a Tang that follows me around the glass since I often hand feed him. So I stood behind the end with most of the bubbles and the tang came and hung out in the bubbles looking for a hand out. As for the corals there was at least one interesting reaction, a purple acro immediately slimed up and shedded a layer. Somewhere on one of those links I read this often happens. Is it a bad reaction by the coral or is it a natural occurrence where the corals is just shedding the yuck? It raises a lot of questions for me. Most corals seemed happy and more extended, however one big Meteor Shower colony the was directly in the path of the bubble flow closed up during the bubbles.

As for cleaning the gunk out of the display I am convinced something is going on. The first time I shut down the bubbles there was a visible protein film on the surface of the water on the less active side of the tank. In that spot there is a bit of an eddy current in one corner and it takes longer for that surface water to escape down the overflow. Some of this no doubt was the slime layer coming off the acro. I suspect lots of other junk in there too. As for the claims by Elegant Corals of nano bubbles lifting or fixing dinos and cyano? Would need to see lots of people report this to believe it.

Ok so now the bad news. When the bubbles hit the surface they pop. So if you ran this a lot you would start to see salt creep issues for sure. Most of the bigger bubbles pop in the overflow which is good. How bad salt creep would get is the question for me that remains. As for bubbles sticking to everything? The tank looked pretty much normal within 5 minutes of shutting the air down, the odd bubble was trapped here and there. I cant tell you how long it takes the bigger bubbles to dissolve, work keeps calling. I am pretty certain if you ran this for a couple hours in the evening in the morning you would see no evidence.

Is this bubble idea good, bad or indifferent? I cant say. Is it worth testing? Hell yeah.
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Old 01-22-2016, 09:29 PM
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I'm with Albert on this, seems like a gimmick. Wouldn't even consider it.
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Old 01-23-2016, 12:39 AM
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Don't we design sumps to specifically get rid of microbubbles from the skimmer? I personally would hate my display tank to be full of microbubbles. I would also imagine the glass lids would have to be cleaned daily to get rid of all the extra salt creep. Sounds like something that was designed by someone without a lot of real world reefing experience and came up with what seems like a "good idea" in theory but impractical under real world applications. Designers should have discussed this idea with experienced reefers before investing their time, money & effort designing and building a gimmick that is really a waste of resources. Aesthetically, reefers want clear water to view their fish and corals through, not tanks filled with microbubbles.

(In case I haven't been clear) Personally, I would NEVER try this out in my tanks.

The constantly bursting microbubbles would leave salt everywhere, including my glass tops and my LED lights, corroding the lights prematurely. When you increase the salt creep effect, you'll gradually lower the tank's salinity as your auto top off only adds freshwater while the bubbles are popping out salt onto your walls, glass tops, rim, eurobracing, hanging lights, etc.

If you're worried about your skimmer not pulling out enough gunk from the water, get a better skimmer, not add a bubbling gimmick into your display.

Before you invest in this gimmick, go buy or borrow a cheap bubble wand used in fw aquariums and add it to the front of your tank on the sandbed and plug in an air pump. This will give you an idea of the "look" you'll achieve with lots of small bubbles in your display and the amount of extra mess and salt creep you'll end up with from bursting microbubbles.

Last edited by SeaHorse_Fanatic; 01-23-2016 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 01-23-2016, 04:14 PM
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I'm not sure why you guys are calling this idea a gimmick? Maybe the silly terminology or the tacky feel to that first linked website. Which by the way I have no affiliation with. Nor am I selling anything. Those people don't even have their gimmick device in production yet. I am not trying to trick anyone into doing anything stupid to their tank. Perhaps this thread got off on a wrong footing?

I am merely interested in the effect and use of small bubbles on a reef tank in addition to what is already happening in a skimmer. Is it not reasonable to explore what affect fine bubbles have on fish, corals and the water column? Every day at low tide large parts of many reefs are pounded with waves and submerged in fine bubbles, how is that a gimmick not worth considering? Isn't this hobby about recreating a small slice of ocean in a little tank and everything we do works towards that simulation, so why not bubbles? The idea might be total junk or its implementation unreasonable but I would love to hear exactly why, with reasons, proof, science, that sort of discussion. Lets weigh the pros and cons, do a cost benefit analysis and see what we have here. Sometimes people learn by looking at the most ridiculous of ideas no?
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Old 01-23-2016, 04:18 PM
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Here is a potential real world application for a micro bubble injection system, an automated frag tank or non-photosynethetic high feed system. This is not your grandmothers fresh water plastic diver bubbler, these are bubbles reduced in size by the shearing action of a high speed return pump. There are various other micro bubble technologies being used used and tested in the water treatment industry perhaps one of these could be utilized in an industrial scale frag operation if bubbles are shown to be beneficial or at the least harmless. We know what they do in a skimmer right?

I believe the high walls and raised lighting solves the problem of bubble spray in this design. The problem of popping bubbles I do not think is as great as one might imagine in any case. Furthermore if your frag operation is located in an industrial space or unfinished basement is salt creep a huge issue?

The idea is to feed on a timer and then blast the tank with bubbles and flow a set time after feeding to cleanse the tank. This cycle could run multiple times a day. For low flow loving corals it could alternate long low flow periods with shorter high cleanse ones?

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