Tank EULOGY from a beginner

[Magickiwi]

Originally Posted by geweagle

Brad,

Light is a cost only issue. It was a reasonable option for the cost. Spending $1000 + was just out of the question. I think if the phosphate was under control I would not have had the alge outbreak.

When you said the name of the model of light you have it sounded like a grow light vs. an aquarium light. The bottom line is that grow lights, or anything in that wavelength, are going to do what they are designed to: grow plants.

Originally Posted by geweagle

Would have been nice if I was warned about the butterfly fish and the trouble anemones can be. When I read threads it is mixed.

I'm afraid that one's on you. The responsibility to know the exact details of the livestock you purchase is solely on you. Checking out a few threads on the ones you want to purchase simply isn't enough. As for anemones, every description I've seen for them says be careful they don't get sucked into your intakes.

Just saying that you're suffering a mix of inexperience, incomplete information, and a couple of less than ideal choices. Marine aquariums are expensive, that is a sad fact. Persistence is the key to anything good in life, if it's in you to keep trying then this can be a very rewarding hobby. Keep educating yourself and heed the advice that experienced people like reefwars, aquattro, kien, etc.

[Reef Pilot]

Yup, no way around it, a lot of learning with SW. And you'll get a lot of conflicting opinions, too. But like others have said, go slow, and don't try to fix too many things at one time, so you can better correlate cause and effect.

Get your water params right first, starting with salinity, KH, Ca, and let your tank go through the post cycle phases with algae, etc. Fix your nitrates and phosphates later, after the basics are stable.

And really try to curb that urge to add livestock, especially delicate ones.

[asylumdown]

Some very good advice in this thread. The two cents that I would add would be that while 80 gallons might seem like a big number, for the fish you had, it's actually not that big of a tank. I'm not sure of your tank's exact dimensions, but if it's in the range of the 72 gallon bowfronts it's probably about 4 feet long. I'm not sure what size they were when you got them, but the bicoloured angel's adult size is about 6", the yellow tang can reach 8", and I'm not sure of the exact species of butterfly fish that you had, but I'm going to assume based on the common name that it's what's also known as the Latticed Butterfly (Chaetodon rafflesi), which has an adult size of 6". If they were all adults and lined up head to tail, they would be almost half the length of your tank. It very well could work long term, but I would consider that to be a pretty well stocked 80 gallon tank, plus you had/have clowns in there.

So, question 1 - how far apart did you add the fish, and what was your schedule for testing ammonia as you stocked the tank? It sounds like you tested it at least once, but while adding one more fish to an established community likely will have little affect on your ammonia levels, doubling or tripling the number of fish in a system (from one to two, for example) definitely can. Also, a dying nem in an 80 gallon can put off a whole lot of ammonia, enough to have possibly overwhelmed your yellow tang. Did you test for ammonia the day the yellow tang died? It's hard to tell what sort of a timeline this all happened on from your post, how many days between fish losses were there?

Assuming ammonia/water chemistry wasn't the problem (it may or may not have contributed), something else has been killing your fish. While I'm sure there are cases where fish have strokes or heart attacks and mysteriously die for not visible reason, in aquariums you can usually discount those altogether. That leaves us with three other options: Aggression, disease, or malnutrition. Chronic stress could be in there too, but really it just serves to exacerbate the three acute causes of death. This leads me to question 2 - what sort of quarantine procedure did you use for the fish you added? If the answer is none, There is a very good chance disease has played a role. I know you've been keeping fish for a while, but the really nasty killers in the marine world are not always as obvious to the naked eye as some of the fresh water diseases, especially on light coloured fish. The two most obvious things to look for on your surviving fish would be marine ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and marine velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum). Marine ich, AKA white spot disease, is usually pretty obvious to the naked eye once it reaches a lethal level, but unless you were looking closely or knew what to look for it's still possible to miss. In it's worst form, you should even see little white spots on the fishes eyes. Marine velvet however, can be subtle enough that unless you knew what to look for you could miss it, and it can take a fish from 'normal' to 'really quite dead' in less than 24 hours. If the fish were not quarantined and prophylactically treated, the chances that you don't have at least some marine ich present in your system is pretty low, which doesn't always mean it will kill them, but it does mean you have a lower margin for error in the level of stress your fish can handle before it can overwhelm them. It's a very common misconception that you can speed up a cycle by using someone else's 'aged' water, as the nitrification process happens in the substrate, not the water column. What there is plenty of in the water column is fish pathogens, and fish stores are especially notorious for being breeding grounds of disease. Most experienced hobbyists go through great lengths to keep water from fish stores out of their systems for that very reason.

If disease wasn't an issue (though I strongly believe it played a role), you have to look at aggression and nutrition. You would have noticed the aggression if it was present, but you'd need to watch very carefully to know if nutrition played a role. Butterfly fish are notoriously difficult to get to eat in captivity, and many die from complications related to starvation. By the time you see them in a store, most fish have spent at least a couple of weeks in transit, and many of them have barely eaten, and were not being given the kind of care they need to train them on new foods. Most LFS's (even the good ones) are pretty bad at making sure each fish in every tank is getting enough food. When I first started out, the only powder blue tangs, butterfly fishes, and anthias's I had ever seen were the ones in store tanks, so I actually had no idea that what I thought was 'normal' was actually how those fish looked when emaciated. Now that I have a healthy Copper Band Butterfly and can compare what they're supposed to look like with how they look in most stores... it's actually quite heart breaking. Chances are good your butterfly wasn't eating enough and that it was under-weight and had little defence against disease or any issues with water chemistry.

My advice - If your tank is having trouble keeping fish alive, you don't even need to be thinking about things like whether your phosphate is too high to keep corals. Find out what is killing your fish first, and address that problem or problems. If your system can't sustain fish, it's absolutely not going to sustain corals, and taking drastic measures to reduce phosphate is only complicating what you should be focusing on. ID any diseases that might be present, and take the established steps to eliminate it as best you can. Adopt a QT strategy that works for you. Research your fish choices and be prepared to go the extra mile (usually in a QT tank) to get finicky eaters fully acclimated and gaining weight before introducing them to food competitors. Stop taking drastic measures to eliminate this or that perceived problem as soon as you notice it - slow and subtle is the name of the game. Save for marine velvet, you'll usually kill more things trying to 'fix' the problem than most 'problems' ever kill.

ANd if you read that whole post, you've got more patience than I usually do.

[Simons]

yes frustrating for sure. Like you, I have been keeping fish for a long time (over a decade) in my 100G planted tank. I did almost a year of research and reading while my basement was being developed because I knew I wanted a large saltwater tank.

I think everyone hear has pointed out that SLOW and steady wins the race with saltwater tanks. Unlike freshwater, parameters usually do not change quickly but if they do (even 'good' changes) can still lead to crashes.

First off, GFO and Carbon for a 'new' saltwater aquarium is essential (IMHO), not only does the carbon polish the water, keeping it clear and not yellow, it removes significant amounts of unwanted waste products. Good GFO reactor does the same with phosphates which is a significant contributing factor to most algae outbreaks. I would say in your case, because you started with tap water, it would be a requirement, not an option.

As others have pointed out, you can get RO water from many suppliers that is fairly cheap. This way you KNOW your not putting additional phosphates and minerals into your water column.

I would hold off on any other corals until you can get a handle on your RO water situation, I don't think they will do well.

Remember slow and steady just like the others have indicated, in reality I do not like adding ANY chemicals to my water. If it isn't in my carbon or GFO reactors it isn't in my tank. Keeping corals will require dosing at some point but I wouldn't even dream of starting that in your tank until you get a handle on your water.

Remember, in saltwater we don't "keep coral's and animals" we keep WATER. It's the only thing that matters.

Can you post a detailed description of ALL your equipment? It will help with nailing down where some quick assistance may be required.

[tang daddy]

I see posts on people adding this and that for their problems and right away I think in my head it's another mad chemist on a rampage.... I am not meaning this in a bad way.

Alot of good advise and knowledge from fellow hobbyist on here, different corals prefer different water params. It is quite normal for green star polyps to close up for a couple days. One thing to keep in mind here is that most softie corals, ones without skeletons prefer nutrient rich water, ie dirtier water. Although fish and sps coral require the opposite. Finding the balance is the hard part, I have been in the hobby for quite sometime and still make mistakes from time to time.

Most people with successfull fish take time to qt, but the rest of us don't have the space or time so we just acclimate and toss in. Adding fish is risky business and if the stressed fish is introduced, most times it will bring ich to your tank which stresses out all your other fish. At times adding fish can screw up all the inhabitants, I've seen this happen in a few friends tanks.

I would hold of on adding any more fish for a couple weeks to months. If you're going to add fish make sure to read about their requirements first as they may not be reef suitable and also harm your other fish, also picky eaters are not a good choice. A fish that eats readily will survive, most of my picky fish perished over time from being to slow to eat.

Having abit of phosphates and nitrates in your tank won't hurt your fish or soft coral, having your tank too clean will starve the softies, again it's a balance so go slow and try not to change everything at once.

[geweagle]

Hello All,

First I want to thank you all for your comments. Sorry I was out of town for a few days so just getting back to answer some of the comments. Also I think I have found the root to most of the fish losses, which unfortunately is likely disease. that was what Asylumdown suggested. After reading his comments I started checking some things and to put the pieces together. Here is likely the trend. I hope people find this useful.

I am likely going to loss the new Yellow Tang as well. I actually was able to watch the progression this time. It was fast! It is likely ICK. Classic symptoms. It likely started with the first fish I lost. I noticed the fish was rubbing against rocks a lot. But I did not know if that was normal or abnormal behavior for that fish as it was a rock dweller. My saline was Low! (26-7 ppt) I did not even know that was likely a good thing.

I started to raise the salinity because it was low. Got it up to 30 ppt. the target was to be 35 ppt. Likely only to through the ICK into full bloom. The fish died and I did not even see it, I was away for a few days. Then a few days later the checker butterfly fish started to show the same action, rubbing against the rock in the little cave I had made. I though he was chasing the shrimp because they were in those caves. He died when I was away too so I never did get to see what he looked like.

Now the new yellow tang started to show adnormal behavior. Same Same. At least I knew Tangs are open water fish. They do not hang near rocks normally. They like to swim in open water. This morning it happen so fast. In a matter of "1 hour" he went from rubbing the rock to on his side in trouble. I pulled him out and put him in a quaratine tank I have. Which fortunately hyposalinity at about 28 ppt. Noticed some white spots on the fins. Did not see them before. Not many but surely some there. I will know tonight if he has made it. Some hemoraging also started on the dorsal fin.

SO no more fish till this tank stablizes. I never saw ICK go this fast. but my experience is all fresh water.

Comments to some questions and feeback for those interested

I would like to start by saying that yes this is a troubled tank. I have never seen so much happen so quick. Was I over reacting? Yes! most likely. Was I pushing the time frame? Yes! likely but the chemistry of the tank did look ok at the time. Never dreamed I had a disease situation

I am fortunately that I have access to good analytic methods. I use a DR2800 Hach spec for most of my water testing as I work in water treatment. So the water chemistry testing acuracy I feel is pretty good. I have access to ICP water analysis as well if I choice. Salinity I do at this time use a hydrometer, but not just the litttle cheap swinge arm. I have a proper bubble glass tube salinometer hydrometer. Acuracy is to the third decimal. Likely I will go to a refractometer eventually. I do tend to think in PPT (part per trillion) rather than refractive index, but the conversion scales are simple

The light fixture I have is an Evergrow IT2080 32" with Blue and White LED. It is well reviewed and perhaps not top of the line but pretty good. Currently it has 90 deg LED lens and I and getting some 120's so I can reach the side of the tank.

The fish I purchased were all small under 2". I do understand that the Tangs and Butterfly and Angels will out grow the tank. When that happens I would likely trade or sell them. But for now they offer such great colours and the family loved them. When they start to show stress I will move them Out. I do have a 120 gal three compartment quaratine tank as well which I have moved to SW as well.

I am going to invest in a RO/DI system. although my chemistry does look pretty good now. But Yes silica is lilely high. T-alkalinity is OK and Ca expressed at hardness is also OK. But saying that could be better.

Yes I am pretty sure I was chasing the wrong issue. Most of the serious issues I think are not chemistry at all but disease. Just never saw it move so fast.

Currently I still have 2 clowns, and 4 small yellow tail damsels. They are doing fine and I will leave them be. But I will drop the salinity down and let the ICK run its course. Not going near any copper. Too many issues after the fact.

So as summary to the Eulogy. A troubled tank. Too much too fast. Chasing the wrong issues. I hope this journey will be of use to people in the future starting in this hobby.

Glenn

[tang daddy]

It maybe a good idea to start up a qt tank for new additions, I notice that people with qt tanks lose hardly any fish compared to people that don't.

I saw a small qt tank with angels, anthias, royal gamma and a few other fish all waiting to go into the main display at my friends house. It was a simple set up that was 14g with 2 hob filters running charcoal and sponge. He had a small fluidized filter and air stone. He dosed prazi pro and melafix if needed and ran just a few drops of copper. Changed the water about 5% every 3 days. They all were healthy and eating pellets and flakes... Even the anthias was eating flakes, couldn't believe all the fish got along in such a small tank. After seeing how easy it is, I am thinking of starting a small qt for my new additions so I don't lose anymore fish.

[geweagle]

I agree. I am pretty sure the root cause to the fish loses was disease. I do have a quaratine tank now and will certainly use it. Yes my display tank looked ugly but that I am beginning to think would not kill fish. It looks like it was not chemistry issues at all. But the ICK was not easy to see. It did not help that I did not have a chance to see it in progress on the first two kills. But this last one, which I hope I might have saved, was classic.

I am beginning to think more issues in startups can be disease and less chemistry, but chemistry is easy to point too. You can measure it. You know what the targets are. So if it is off we tend to blame what we can see.

Disease is far less easy to pinpoint and symptoms are often vague. At least my experience is that it can be incredibly fast. Healthy to morbian in 4 days.

[Dearth]

I've been in the hobby a year now but one thing I have learned is that with salt water in the aquarium setting is that when fish get a disease or injury that it could otherwise shake off in the wild in the aquarium it could literally take hrs to kill a fish and if you don't recognize the symptoms and telltales there is little hope of saving the fish/coral.

I don't run a QT tank mostly due to space requirements and once everything is out of my lil tank it is being shut down. Mostly it just boils down to taking your time, basic understanding and patience.

[asylumdown]

Marine ich and freshwater ich are similar organisms in a lot of ways, but they're different species with different pathologies. It can go very quickly, as the parasites tend to build up silently over a couple of generations, then when their numbers are truly astronomical, your fish suddenly falls apart on you.

The one thing about it however, is that it never really "runs its course". If C. irritans is present in a system, and that system has fish in it, all the research and anecdotal evidence indicates that it will continue to persist. The existing fish will likely develop a partial immunity and you will likely stop seeing symptoms over time, but the parasite will most definitely still be there. If you search the various forums, you will find a variety of opinions on whether or not this is a problem, but the one thing that it will guarantee is that if you don't take the steps necessary to eliminate it from your tank, it will always be a gamble for you to add ich prone or delicate fish. Before my first and (thankfully) only total tank wipeout, I managed to reach a level of equilibrium with my established fish - none died, and very few ever showed visible symptoms. However, my rate of loss for new fish (especially ich prone fish like tangs) was around 70%. Even with a good QT and fattening up, a fish's stress levels are highest and their immunological defenses are lowest when they're first introduced to a new community, which is exactly the conditions ich opportunistically exploits.

Whether or not you can ever have an "ich free" tank, is a contentious point of debate, but you can go through steps to clear your display of it as much as possible. If your yellow tang survives and you put him back in an infected display that has not been run free of fish long enough to break ich's life cycle, you will very likely end up in the same position with that fish again. Over time it may develop enough of an immune response to cope with a moderate level of infection, but it will need to be in really good shape to do that.

The only way to let ich "run its course" is to remove all fish from the display, treat them all in a separate QT system using one the methods that are known to be effective (there's really only 4), and let the display tank run fallow for 9-12 weeks (depending on who you ask, I err on the longer side as it would suck to waste 9 weeks if it wasn't long enough).

The other option is to just deal with ich, a many on here do, which is possible long term, but you will always have problems adding new, stressed out, immunologically naive fish and may never have success with the more ich prone species. You will also need to maintain optimal diet and conditions for the fish that do adapt so the parasite never gets the upper hand. If that's the route you go, I'd still wait a couple months before adding new fish, having three fish kack it on you will have contributed a pretty significant number of encysted ich tomonts to your system. While you'll never clear it without going fallow, having the tank populated by ich resistant fish *should* mean that over time the "parasite bank" will deplete, as fewer will live to complete the life cycle. The less of it present when you do add more fish, the better.