Dosing Lanthanum Chloride to reduce PO4

[xenon]

I have a 1,200g fish system that costs us a small fortune in GFO.

I am just looking for feedback on what products you guys use and how exactly do you use it?

I have a jug of Sealer that I was planning to dilute to 1ml into 1000ml. Then dose it automatically via dosing pump directly into my 4' MRC Orca Pro III skimmer and have a 10 micron filter sock on the output of the skimmer.

The main question is how often will the filter sock need to be replaced?

I am also interested in products like Agent Green. ATM says its safe to dose to your tank without the need of any filter socks?

[Myka]

Imo, you should be dosing it either into a filter sock (some people suggest 10 microns, which is tough to do) or into the intake of your skimmer. Both Foz Down and Brightwell Aquatics Phosphate Destroyer are marketed for this use. Neither say their product is Lanthanum chloride, but both products work just like Lanthanum chloride, and there are many people that simply call it such.

Also, have you considered regenerating GFO? http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/10/chemistry

[xenon]

There seems to be plenty of "Lanthanum Chloride" products available but from my research, Seaklear was the preferred brand.

10 micron filter socks would need to be brought it from the U.S. but they are not hard to find.

I was just hoping others in Canada had some experience with it.

Recharging GFO is not something I am interested in doing but I appreciate the suggestion.

[Myka]

There seems to be plenty of "Lanthanum Chloride" products available but from my research, Seaklear was the preferred brand.

Yes, but it's not an aquarium brand. If you're ok with that, give'r.

10 micron filter socks would need to be brought it from the U.S. but they are not hard to find.

Not hard to find - PITA to use. Will clog up very quickly.

I was just hoping others in Canada had some experience with it.

I've used the Brightwell version recently. Years ago I used to use a product that I bought online - can't remember the name, it was "pure" LC. I've never used any LC product in a running system though, only ever in live rock tubs.

Recharging GFO is not something I am interested in doing but I appreciate the suggestion.

Works for me.

[George]

I also have been looking at Lanthanum Chloride to reduce phosphate. However I have read some comments on other sites by reputable posters saying that LaCl may irritate sensitive fish. Also the precipitate is smaller than 10 microns. I am too chicken to play with LaCl on my systems with some expensive fish which may or may not be sensitive to the precipitate.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by George

I also have been looking at Lanthanum Chloride to reduce phosphate. However I have read some comments on other sites by reputable posters saying that LaCl may irritate sensitive fish. Also the precipitate is smaller than 10 microns. I am too chicken to play with LaCl on my systems with some expensive fish which may or may not be sensitive to the precipitate.

Yeah, I think the precipitate is smaller than 10 microns. I'd just run it straight into the skimmer like biopellets. Like I said, I've never used it in a running system before, but my understanding is that the sensitivity to fish is only if the water becomes cloudy with the precipitate which is why people recommend to drip it instead of dump capfuls in. Some people I've seen running it drip into their first sump chamber and assume that the precipitate will settle out by the time it goes through the sump. My sump has about 6x turnover through it, and I don't think anything that is 10 microns or less is going to be settling in there!

[Myka]

Hey, so I've been looking into this a bit more myself, and found some people saying that the LC "cloud" will come out of a 10 micron sock, but will not come out of a 1 micron sock.

A tee on the return could supply flow for a sock like this. Maybe hang the sock off the ball valve (if it's in the right place). Then the sock has to be removed before it clogs and starts to overflow (a couple hours?). Another thought I had was to drip the LC into the emergency pipe of a Herbie drain, and as long as you have a bit of water going through there it should do the trick. You can water down the LC too so that it's not as concentrated for each drop. Lots of diferent ways to get it done, but it seems like 1 micron sock is what you need. I found a couple (expensive) options on Amazon.ca and a bunch of much cheaper options on Amazon.com. Maybe you could find something locally and start carrying them???

Oh, and watch your alkalinity because most of what precipitates is Lanthanum carbonate (as per Randy Holmes-Farley).

[MitchM]

I came across one study in the past that demonstrated free lanthanum chloride clogging the gills of daphinia and accumulating on the outer membrane of certain bacteria.
Also, once lanthanum chloride binds to phosphorous and settles on the substrate, if it is injested into a fish's gut, it can become free again in that low PH environment and be re-released into the water column as it passes through the fish.

With GFO, it can remove trace minerals, so it has it's drawbacks as well.

I found that you had to dose very little LC into a 10 micron sock to be effective. You don't have to run your whole sump return volume through the 10 micron sock. When the sock overflowed is when I changed out the sock.

I found no actual studies on larger fish being negatively affected by a cloud of LC, only anecdotal evidence.

.

[xenon]

Originally Posted by Myka

Hey, so I've been looking into this a bit more myself, and found some people saying that the LC "cloud" will come out of a 10 micron sock, but will not come out of a 1 micron sock.

A tee on the return could supply flow for a sock like this. Maybe hang the sock off the ball valve (if it's in the right place). Then the sock has to be removed before it clogs and starts to overflow (a couple hours?). Another thought I had was to drip the LC into the emergency pipe of a Herbie drain, and as long as you have a bit of water going through there it should do the trick. You can water down the LC too so that it's not as concentrated for each drop. Lots of diferent ways to get it done, but it seems like 1 micron sock is what you need. I found a couple (expensive) options on Amazon.ca and a bunch of much cheaper options on Amazon.com. Maybe you could find something locally and start carrying them???

Oh, and watch your alkalinity because most of what precipitates is Lanthanum carbonate (as per Randy Holmes-Farley).

Thanks Mindy,

I spent hours reading about LC and never once did I read anything about 1 micron socks. I would imagine it would clog up after 50 gallons of water would pass through it. lol

I ended up ordering 25 of the 10 micron socks online so that I can replace them often. I diluted 5ml of LC into 1L of RO/DI water. I am using a dosing pump to add 6ml every hour, 24hrs /day. 1L of solution should last me 5 days.

I have no idea if its enough (probably not) but I gotta start somewhere.

I was aware of the alkalinity dropping with the use of LC. This is used in a fish system its a non issue.

[Myka]

Originally Posted by xenon

Thanks Mindy,

I spent hours reading about LC and never once did I read anything about 1 micron socks. I would imagine it would clog up after 50 gallons of water would pass through it. lol

I ended up ordering 25 of the 10 micron socks online so that I can replace them often. I diluted 5ml of LC into 1L of RO/DI water. I am using a dosing pump to add 6ml every hour, 24hrs /day. 1L of solution should last me 5 days.

I have no idea if its enough (probably not) but I gotta start somewhere.

I was aware of the alkalinity dropping with the use of LC. This is used in a fish system its a non issue.

Watch pH.

Well, I was thinking it would clog up after 50 gallons too, but a couple of these guys said as long as you used a big sock like 4x18" that it can be used for several hours. I ordered some of the 1 micron socks and will give it a go too.