Importance of the Invoice

[saltcreep]

This thread is actually quite amusing. Seeing an invoice and proving origin of a fish are two completely different issues. If a hobbiest asks a simple question of the origin of a fish, a simple answer should suffice. Why the necessity to pull invoices to verify this? The LFS should be taken for their word.

The price of the fish should also be a great clue. Ever see the price of a coral beauty from Fiji or Australia? Quite a bit more than that of the Philippines or Indo. Most fish are priced as they are because they come from PI or Indo.

Proving they are cyanide free is a whole other issue.

Christy...let me know where those $1.25 flame angels come from

[Troy F]

Originally Posted by saltcreep

... Seeing an invoice and proving origin of a fish are two completely different issues. If a hobbiest asks a simple question of the origin of a fish, a simple answer should suffice. Why the necessity to pull invoices to verify this? The LFS should be taken for their word.

I think because some LFS probably can't be trusted.

[saltcreep]

If you can't trust a LFS with that type of answer, why would you shop there? Obviously there are a number of other factors to add to your distrust.

[Troy F]

I wouldn't. Some people probably don't have a choice though, I think we're lucky to have as many stores as we do. We're able to choose.

As I said in my little rant, if a customer asks where a fish came from, I simply tell them. Its really very easy. If you didnt want to belive me or another store owner, then you really shouldnt be shopping at that business. As for invoices, well alot of fish in this hobby, fresh and saltwater, come from the phillipines/indo, boxes are reused many times and from what I know of alot of B.C. stores, alot of stores get their fish from a large wholesaler where you can get one shipment of fish that contains a fish from every part of the world known to man. Not many retail stores order direct from the source of livestock as the min orders are very high and a store dosent have enough tanks to house a single min shipment. What the box says that the fish came in means nothing, its a piece of cardboard that protects a styro box which holds little living jewels.(Fish,coral,inverts,plants.) As for what an invoice says on it, well it can really say anything the invoicer want it to, you probably dont want to hear this but alot of the companies that pump out the larger numbers of cynide caught fish, well they have the most stickers, stamps, and seals that guarantee net caught fish. As someone previously mentioned earlier in this thread, this is a business that relies alot on trust between business aquantiences, when I order from a suplier I can see the quality of their product and therfore order from them again, the same way hobbiests should deal with their LFS. My earlier rant touched more on the invoice money side, but at the same time my customer should trust me if I can contuinally provide top quality livestock at a decent price point. If you come to me saying that you dont belive me where the fish come from and want to see an invoice then I will most definitally take it as a direct insult. You are essentially calling me a liar to my face. Personally my livestock speaks for itself! As someone else mentioned earlier similar fish have very different prices, as I try to cater to a high end customer I only purchase high end fish and therefore pay a high end price and I most definatley pass that high end price to my customer. What my invoices say are my business, where fish come from is everybodys business.

[zulu_principle]

Just my two cents,

Having a " right to know the origin of fish", not a god given right, but as a consumer you can demand anything you want as ultimately you purchase the product.

"Assumption as to where fish are from if they dont tell you is Indo/Philli", not the first one I would draw, but if the fish dies fairly quickly after purchase from an experienced salt water individual, maybe. As an aside, im sure I read somewhere that a local vet in Tsawwassen, Hoff who is well regarded at the aquarium will do testing after death.....

As for the confidentiallty of documents, if you are like Big Als in Richmond that proposes that all fish are non-cyanide caught then you should be able to back up your advertising. Otherwise buyer beware.

The business side of this hobby is a fact of life, there are many niches and low cost provider may not be suitable for all hobbiest, maybe the cream of the crop as at deepblue is more suitable, others with more experience can drive arround and look at many different retailers or wholesalers to "pick" their own fish.

My last point is "does the retailer really know where the fish is from", some of the confusion comes from staff who are not trained to deal on a retail level with experienced people or just dont know. Other comes from the wholesaler who packs their shipments in incorrectly marked boxes (sure )

Maybe some of the wholesalers can tell us what the retailers require and what they provide ?

What is it that the wholesaler provides to this equation thats not passed on the the retail customer to alleviate this concern and confusion for the hobbiest.


Wendell

[zulu_principle]

Oh Sam

Great topic

[Troy F]

I'm really kind of blown away by the attitude of some of the people that either appear to be in the retail end or are in the retail end of this. The burden is on you to satisfy the customer and as things progress and the hobbyist becomes more educated you will have to meet these demands or you won't be in business. If we ask to see documentation of some sort to prove where an order is coming from then it should be made available. As Christy and Naesco said, we're not interested in the price. We all know about the mark up. If you're getting your fish from a place that brings in fish from all over the place and you don't know where they came from, maybe you should change your supplier. If those that are trying to educate the hobbyist can't reach enough people through mediums such as this, we'll find our hobby policed from the outside.

I think the retailers of the area could do the hobby some good by getting together and setting some standards. If it costs more to bring in ethicaly captured critters then price fix. I know this isn't going to happen but it would solve a lot of the problems. Competition between the various retailers causes as many problems as it solves in certain cases. You can't purchase Goniapora spp. at J&L's but I'll bet you guys can find it if you want it.

DBA, how are many of the people to know if the retailer tells the truth. They know that many of the Philippine and Indo fish are cyanide caught so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think some may not be forthright.

Big Al's have a lab report stating that such and such fish were tested (I think it was clowns and if they need cyanide to catch clowns then we have some serious problems) and were certified cyanide free. The certificate is from back in '99 I think. How many shipments since then have come out of the Philippines and what do you think the odds are that they were all cyanide free?

Originally Posted by DBA

So many times i see long time reefers that know where the quality stores are but they go hunting for livestock at the less than par stores looking for a deal and then they complain unceasingly about the poor quality livestock that died or made their whole tank sick. STAY AWAY FROM STORES THAT HAVE CRAP PRODUCT!!!!!!!! If you keep supporting them they just keep bringing in more sub par livestock. SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL STORE THAT CARRIES BETTER PRODUCT FOR A HIGHER PRICE!!!!!!!!!! There is a very good reason that they charge a little more for some things. And it is alot cheaper in the end. On a final note, dont ever ask to see my invoice, my business, not yours!!!

This is such a great point. And, not only should we support the place that carries better product when we buy their livestock but we should support them with our drygood purchases too. Squibbling over a few bucks here and there is pointless if you give your business to an unethical retailer. There are stores around here that I wouldn't buy my dog food from, never mind aquarium livestock or supplies, and I don't care if they had the cheapest friggin' prices on the face of the earth.

[BCOrchidGuy]

I believe I am the one responsible for the whole idea of seeing an invoice when I said my LFS will pull out the invoice when ever I ask about origon or what kind of a deal can I get... The invoice and the calculator come out. I can ask and see the invoice at anytime, I know what the store buys the fish for and I can see where the shipment came from. Do I care what the store pays for the fish, NO, although I like to know, what I care about is can I afford the fish, lets face it, if you go into your LFS and see a French Angel for $25 guaranteed net caught........ well.. (insert imagination)
My LFS is unique in alot of ways, I know alot of you don't like them and I have issues with them from time to time, but I have always been able to work out those issues.
CBA, I don't blame you for wanting to make a few $$ off of your fish, not many people try to make a living off of selling stuff for less than cost...

My personal belief is that retailers need to make $$, it is the way they deal with me that makes me a loyal customer. If I feel like I donate my paycheque at the front desk when I walk in, I probably wont go back, if I feel I get a fair deal for the service and the livestock I recieve I will go back. I won't pay $2 for a flame angel if the service is poor, mind you I wouldn't pay $500 for one if the service was great.

I don't think this thread is ridiculous at all, I do think this thread shows our outlook on the hobby, our priorities in finding a favorite LFS, and what we look for in a retailer.

We are all different, no one is a kook for asking questions, no one is an idiot for pressing for information from the retailer. Sure you may get kicked out for asking a question, but what if the retailer says sure, lemme get it for you.

This hobby is made up of people from different back grounds, some people are more conservation minded, some are more pocket book minded. Some just don't care, the trick is to educate people as to why we don't want to support stores that sell cyanide caught fish.

One question I would like to ask, What do I look for as a consumer when I am in a fish store and suspect the fish may be cyanide caught. Will the fish show obvious signs that will tip me off? I know most if not all fish are drugged for shipping to reduce the stress etc... but after that wears off, what do I look for in determining how a fish was caught?

[mikey_d18]

cyinide caught fish usually look like hand caught fish when there first brought in........the way of detecting cynide caught fish is.....after the first week or so the fish stops eating.....unless the fish wasnt eating from the start.........they dwindle down to nothin.........also lack of colour and heavy breathing are signs that the fish might be cynide caught..........also the ovbiously to good to be true prices like $10 flame angels........they usually are to good to be true!!! and i believe the area where they use cyinide the most is the phillipines