instant ocean or reef crystals?

[Madreefer]

Originally Posted by Myka

I used to feel the same way as Darryl and Tony about Instant Ocean, but having made the change back and forth between IO and H2Ocean 4 times I've noticed a significant change in my reef tanks each time. I won't use IO on my reefs anymore, I've decided IO is for FO tanks only. I haven't used RC on my reefs in many years, but every once in awhile I use it on my FO tanks when I can't get IO. Besides, H2Ocean is natural sea salt - there has to be a difference using natural sea salt as opposed to synthetic sea salt...there has to be.

What changes have you noticed? You've posted a few times that most of your hicups are when you are away from your tank for extended times. You as well as most anybody else know that tank recoveries are not quick. So if your tank has recovered is it due to you changing of salts or maintaining them better? I'd love to try the H2O salt but it's hard enough to get IO in my town.

[Myka]

I posted just before you, check the bottom of page 1.

My salt changes don't correlate with the times where my tank went from my care to the tank sitter's care. The first time I changed to H2Ocean was while the tank sitter was looking after the tank, but he had been looking after the tank for many months before the salt change. This last salt change was several weeks before the tank sitter was looking after the tank. I tend not to make a bunch of changes at a time so I can see how my tank reacts to each change so I know which ones are worthwhile. I had similar questions as you, and didn't really believe it was the salt until I made the change this time and looked back in my documentation and photos, and now I'm fairly sure it is indeed the salt. Fwiw, the tank sitter is actually doing quite a good job on the 90-gallon reef this time. There was some algae bloom, so I changed my feeding protocol for him and upgraded from two Koralia 3 to a Tunze 6105 4 weeks ago and added a second 6105 on Christmas Day. This upgrade created a much more significant change in the tank than the salt change ever did.

I think a lot of people try a new salt for one bucket which for some people may only be a couple months of waterchanges. I don't think that is enough. I think you need at least 6 months to assess a different salt. I took about a year.

[Madreefer]

Hmmm... wish I never asked the question. I just have to decide if it's worth spending $40 more per bucket of salt which turns out to an extra $480 a year in salt. Might try it but will have to wait for next trip to Vancouver. I dont know if I should be pi$$ed at you or thank you for the response. HAHA JK thanks

[asylumdown]

Originally Posted by Myka

I used to feel the same way as Darryl and Tony about Instant Ocean, but having made the change back and forth between IO and H2Ocean 4 times I've noticed a significant change in my reef tanks each time. I won't use IO on my reefs anymore, I've decided IO is for FO tanks only. I haven't used RC on my reefs in many years, but every once in awhile I use it on my FO tanks when I can't get IO. Besides, H2Ocean is natural sea salt - there has to be a difference using natural sea salt as opposed to synthetic sea salt...there has to be.

+1. I started using H2Ocean because I was doing 100% water changes on a 5 gallon pico every week and I needed something that mixed clear within the first couple of hours. It was a bonus that the corals never seemed to be too upset with it either. Now it's all I use on my big tank, which is a bummer because it's ridiculously expensive, and I find that per weight, you need more of it to reach the right salinity compared to other brands. I was thinking of changing, buuuuut:

I'm using IO on my QT tanks for the tank transfer method because it's the cheapest there is, and I picked up a couple buckets on a SWEET boxing day deal at Big Al's. Because I'm only using 15 gallon tanks, and they're right next to a sink, I'm filling the tanks and mixing the salt in them directly (not mixing it in a bucket and transferring it). Even within one bucket of IO, the mix is so inconsistent. I always get to the right salinity with the expected volume of salt, but one one transfer, it will mix relatively clear and be totally clear in an hour, but the next mix, a thick, white film will deposit on every surface of the tank, with a white film floating on the surface. Then the next transfer it will be half way between the first and the second in terms of precipitate and cloudiness. I've only done 4 transfers total at this point, but I also mix the H2Ocean directly in the water change chamber of my sump, and I've never once had an issue with the mix leaving weird residues in my tank.

Plus the fact that my tank is really hitting it's stride and starting to look like I always wanted it to... I would just love it if H2Ocean wasn't nearly 100 bucks a bucket

[mr.wilson]

I consider salt brand selection as dealing with a known evil. It's easy for us to use the salt brand as a scape goat for the many unknowns out there when our tanks go awry. Salt often takes the fall for vibrio (bacterial infections), reef parasites such as acropora eating flatworms (AEFW) and montipora eating nudibranchs (MEN), as well as secondary metabolites (coral toxins). These are hard conditions to diagnose and even harder to treat, but changing salt is simple, and more importantly "somebody else's fault"

I'm not suggesting for a second that salt mixes are not to blame for downturns and tank crashes, these can and do happen. Some people change salt brands annually to provide more varied and balanced water chemistry. Perhaps that one loose end parameter such as iodide or potassium will fall in line with a brand change. Perhaps your current salt mix has a surplus of one particular element that your tank inhabitants don't readily utilize; a brand change will likely amend this issue.

With respect to Instant Ocean products, standard IO is best suited for fish only tanks as the calcium level is only 350-400 at 35ppt which is below NSW (natural sea water) levels. The KH of IO and IORC is the same (3.8-4.2, 11-12 @ 35ppt) which is higher than NSW (8). The magnesium level of IO and IORC is the same (1400 @ 35ppt) which is also higher than NSW (1350).

The calcium level of Instant Ocean Reef Crystals (IORC) is 450-500 which is way above NSW. If you were to use IORC in a lightly stocked reef tank and dosed or used a calcium reactor, the calcium level would likely rise to unsafe levels (>450). It is not uncommon for a new hobbyist to blindly dose two part additives without testing.

Some people use IO for reef tanks and test and amend the calcium to 400-430ppm. I have had a few reef tanks drift up to 500ppm due to the high levels in IORC.

I know a few people who stopped using H2 Ocean because the alk of freshly mixed water at 35ppt was 14 dkh. The high alk mixed with calcium reactors and chemical dosing ended up driving their KH to dangerous levels (>14). Apparently, this problem has been amended with the new H2 Ocean mix. A high Kh isn't always a problem. It is entirely possible that a nuisance algae problem could be eradicated with a KH of 12 or greater.

This brings me back to the known evil theory. I have used IO for 34 years. I'm currently using IO for fish only tanks and IORC for reef tanks. I cannot say with any certainty that I have ever had a salt mix related problem, other than high calcium from IORC. That's good enough for me I also look at what others are using and IORC seems to be the most common brand for public aquaria and large scale reef tanks such as Chingchai's in Thailand.

[Myka]

Hey Shawn, nice to see you posting on CanReef! [Mindy here]

I know a few people who stopped using H2 Ocean because the alk of freshly mixed water at 35ppt was 14 dkh. [...] Apparently, this problem has been amended with the new H2 Ocean mix.

When was that problem, and the change? My buckets (I've only used 5 buckets to date though) always test around 7.5 to 8.5 dKH (Elos).

Perhaps that one loose end parameter such as iodide or potassium will fall in line with a brand change. Perhaps your current salt mix has a surplus of one particular element that your tank inhabitants don't readily utilize; a brand change will likely amend this issue.

Yes, this is an interesting point.

I also look at what others are using and IORC seems to be the most common brand for public aquaria and large scale reef tanks such as Chingchai's in Thailand.

I think IO and IORC are the most poplar salts in the world mainly because of pricing and availability. IO was the first commerical salt mix to be readily available to hobbyists and professionals. They work - there is no doubt about that.

As you know, H2Ocean is a natural sea salt and IO and IORC are synthetic. It's like comparing natural and synthetic vitamins (which is all the rage these days), where some people claim there is no scientific difference between the way to body metabolizes synthetic vitamins compared to natural, yet there is plenty of data to support the other side of the argument as well. The frustrating thing about reefing is that there is very little scientific data to go on, and if there is any it is done by one professional with no comparative results from other researchers. Most of or "research" is anecdotal which is sketchy at best.

I just bought another years' supply of H2Ocean yesterday. The sale price of the H2Ocean was the same as the regular price of IO, so I really have nothing to lose. At this point, even if it is mind over matter it's working.

Originally Posted by asylumdown

Even within one bucket of IO, the mix is so inconsistent.

Are you mixing/rolling the bucket before use?

Originally Posted by Madreefer

Hmmm... wish I never asked the question. I just have to decide if it's worth spending $40 more per bucket of salt which turns out to an extra $480 a year in salt. Might try it but will have to wait for next trip to Vancouver. I dont know if I should be pi$$ed at you or thank you for the response. HAHA JK thanks

Find a good sale, or ask if your LFS can give you deal on 10 buckets. Try it for a year, and if you don't see anything, then you can be pi$$ed at me. OR, if you're happy...leave well enough alone!

[mr.wilson]

Originally Posted by Myka

Hey Shawn, nice to see you posting on CanReef! [Mindy here]

I know, I know... I need spend more time posting with my fellow Canucks.

Originally Posted by Myka

When was that problem, and the change? My buckets (I've only used 5 buckets to date though) always test around 7.5 to 8.5 dKH (Elos).

It was two years ago. I assume the goal was to replace carbonate dosing with water changes, but not every tank load and water change schedule is the same.

Originally Posted by Myka

I think IO and IORC are the most poplar salts in the world mainly because of pricing and availability. IO was the first commerical salt mix to be readily available to hobbyists and professionals. They work - there is no doubt about that.

This is true. Public aquariums get a good discount/subsidy and in reality, shipping costs play a major role in brand selection. They also have standards (good, bad or ugly) that need to be constant.

Originally Posted by Myka

As you know, H2Ocean is a natural sea salt and IO and IORC are synthetic. It's like comparing natural and synthetic vitamins (which is all the rage these days), where some people claim there is no scientific difference between the way to body metabolizes synthetic vitamins compared to natural, yet there is plenty of data to support the other side of the argument as well. The frustrating thing about reefing is that there is very little scientific data to go on, and if there is any it is done by one professional with no comparative results from other researchers. Most of or "research" is anecdotal which is sketchy at best.

I believe in the theory that there are phytochemicals that increase the efficacy of vitamins and nutrients, but for some reason I've always taken a less wholistic approach to salt mixes. Perhaps it is the bad experiences with other "natural" brands like Royal Ocean and Red Sea or maybe I'm just cynical of the bad stuff that comes with the good stuff in natural sea salt. I shouldn't trust man made chemicals over natures gifts, but in the case of dehydrated and supplemented sea salt it isn't exactly natural anymore. I do eat sea salt chips if that's a conciliation

Originally Posted by Myka

I just bought another years' supply of H2Ocean yesterday. The sale price of the H2Ocean was the same as the regular price of IO, so I really have nothing to lose. At this point, even if it is mind over matter it's working.

I believe there was a recent general price drop on H2Ocean. It was voted the most popular salt on ultimate reef which is a UK based reef forum. H2Ocean originates in the UK so cost and availability is obviously a factor.

Everyone has a brand they have settled with but it doesn't appear that the debate is as hot as other topics within the hobby.

[Arok3000]

Here is my take on many matters related to our hobby, including choice of salt brand.

In the industry that I work in, we have a failsafe procedure for every major equipment in use. They are always a similar model from a different manufacturer. If for some unseen circumstance the first unit fails due to internal fault or programming, the second unit has a significantly lower chance of failing in the same scenario.
Let's say there's a zombie virus outbreak on Vancouver Island, and there is a newfound cure for the virus in Winnipeg of all places. To send the antidote securely, we would send a batch by air on a Boeing, and another batch on an Airbus, then we would also send two batches via ground, one pulled by a Freightliner and one pulled by a Kenworth. This would give us the best chance of at least one shipment arriving.
Okay that scenario was a little extreme, but it gives you the idea.

Back to reefing, in my tank, I run two similar heater cycles on my controller, one runs an jager, the other runs a hydor. I dont necessarily trust either brand of these heaters on their own, but I trust the pair of them to not fail simultaneously more than I trust any single heater. Same thing goes with salt, I am not certain that reef crystals offers my tank everything it needs, so I also use h2ocean at the same time to mix things up a little. I may even add salinity in there as I like to try new products occasionally.
It can be debated that I am increasing the risk of mixing in a bad batch of salt, but that risk isn't great, and by not running one salt exclusively, in the case of a bad batch I am actually diluting that batch by 50% by including another brand.
I might be mistaken, but I believe Dez was a fan of running multiple salts also.

So not only does this allow wiggle room for potential model specific problems, but this also helps eliminate those long, sleepless nights of mentally debating which product you want to go with.

That said, I have always had a bucket of Reef Crystals on hand. ;-)

[Myka]

Originally Posted by mr.wilson

Perhaps it is the bad experiences with other "natural" brands like Royal Ocean and Red Sea or maybe I'm just cynical of the bad stuff that comes with the good stuff in natural sea salt. I shouldn't trust man made chemicals over natures gifts, but in the case of dehydrated and supplemented sea salt it isn't exactly natural anymore. I do eat sea salt chips if that's a conciliation

Heh, good point. I have wondered about what else might be in natural sea salt, and hope they have decent filtering methods.

Oh, and sea salt chips are gross, and I'll continue taking a fist full of "natural" supplement pills everyday.

Everyone has a brand they have settled with but it doesn't appear that the debate is as hot as other topics within the hobby.

Mm, no. LED vs MH and Tunze vs EcoTech are much more dramatic recently.

[iceman86]

Reef crystals is my brand, I've been looking onto h2ocean but too many mixed reviews. Plus big als has reef crystals pails for $35 right now