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[jon.smolders]

I don't think crualty to fish or turtles (any animals) for entertainment purposes is right (food is a different story), and there are moral problems and hypocrisy both in our culture and in others in this respect.

I think what I was reacting to in my first post was whether or not it should be legal. Do we really need laws against crualty to goldfish? Maybe against the commercial sale of fish kept in inhumane conditions... but then do we really want that? Would it interfere with or hinder a LFS's ability to exist? Or would it just force them to keep their tanks clean? I don't really know... it just seems like we have too many laws and restrictions in this country as it is and when something goes wrong, we blame the government.

What we want to know is "why is this happening?"
- Is the problem the governments for allowing it?
- Is the retailer to blame for being greedy and trying to turn a profit with no regard for ethics?
- Is it the consumer and their materialistic obsession for entertainment?
- Or a combination?

The solutions
- Education: Maybe we just need to set up more aquariums and get more people into the hobby so the general public gets up to speed on the proper way to care for aquatic life.
- Moral Reform: A lot of this stems from greed, selfishness, a lack of respect for creation, ect.
- Laws: Crack down on the idiots until they get the point and stop it. But... this doesn't always work. Example: Speeding tickets.
- Let is play out: As sphelps pointed out... the problem might just take care of itself as soon as people end up with dead fish or turles after three days.

[Pinnochio5]

I agree with most to you in the regard about the goldfish, and we should really look at the way they are treated in our country before we look at anyone else.

But what about the turtles, they are put in the oxygen-less plastic bag with what appears to be orange kool-aid. Come on. Thats just sick. I have no doubts that they are dying with a few hours. Maybe even some of them are being sold dead.

Anybody travelling to China soon? Buy all the turtles and cut open the bags and set em free.

my two cents.

[Megalodon]

Originally Posted by daniella3d

while we're at it, what about the chickens that live all of their live stuck in a small cage with 2 individuals in it, so they can't move to waste any energy and fat and all they do all day long is eat and pick at each other eyes?

just wondering but do you still eat chicken?

I eat free-range chicken and eggs most the time, if not, in the very least, free run.

All Lilydale's chickens are free-run. I've been to such a facility and never saw any debeaked chickens picking at each other's eyes with their non-existent beaks. (How to chickens without beaks pick at each other's eyes anyway?)

The whole 'two wrongs make a right' and 'guilt by association' arguments are asinine anyway. Animal abuse should know no borders.

"How are the chickens Lilydale uses treated?
All birds raised for Lilydale are raised in controlled barns where they have free range of the entire barn. The number of birds to square footage is controlled to allow the best conditions. The birds are not kept in cages or treated poorly."

http://lilydale.com/article/articleI...s_article_id=3

[Megalodon]

Read the National Farm Animal Care Council's website ... http://www.nfacc.ca/codes-of-practice

We still have a way to go, but if anyone thinks we treat animals just as poorly as China, they have something wrong with them.

[DCDN]

We can state that it is inhumane to take a creature and put it into such a condition. Though this hobby is about that. We can argue about the right size of a tank for a tang. Yet to someone outside this community could easily argue that the ocean and free range can never be recreated in a tank. Is a 6 foot tank really that much better than a 4 foot tank or is it just a way to justify it to ourselves. By no means to I feel putting a fish into a key chain is acceptable. However I realise that I have taken living creatures away from their natural habbitat. I can try to justify it to myself by stating my fish live in better water than I drink and such things as trying to provide the best environment for them. This can not truely compare to where they were taken out of the ocean. A goldfish in a key chain compared to a tang in a 6 foot tank could be the same arguement.

[Megalodon]

Originally Posted by DCDN

Is a 6 foot tank really that much better than a 4 foot tank or is it just a way to justify it to ourselves.

That's totally different than putting an air-breathing turtle in a little sealed bag and jangling it around on the end of a key chain. What we do is strive to keep our pets happy in an environment where they can not only survive but thrive. This is doing nothing but guaranteeing death and suffering for a quick buck from an uninformed impulse buyer.

[DCDN]

Originally Posted by Megalodon

That's totally different than putting an air-breathing turtle in a little sealed bag and jangling it around on the end of a key chain. What we do is strive to keep our pets happy in an environment where they can not only survive but thrive. This is doing nothing but guaranteeing death and suffering for a quick buck from an uninformed impulse buyer.

Its not completely different, its just at a different point along the spectrum. Go outside the aquarium community and ask people such as Snorkel Bob about the aquaruim trade and you would get the same reaction. Taking a creature out of its natural enviroment where it can swim a hundred feet at a time and putting it into a small glass box. Could make the same arguement. Putting a creature into a small bag for a keychain disgusts me personally. It is important to remember there are those that say the same thing about out glass boxes.

[Madreefer]

I did a search on this and could'nt find anything current on this. It is all from 2008. This topic is in the wrong board. Should be moved to the lounge and it is also rumored to be a hoax. Unfortunately there is nothing that we can do about it if it is true. We all seem to have the same opinion on this topic. It's already gone off topic as it's turned to chickens and attacking other cultures. Just be proud of where and how we live knowing that when there is cruelty to animals that something is done about it. ie: sled dogs in Whistler

[Megalodon]

Originally Posted by Madreefer

I did a search on this and could'nt find anything current on this. It is all from 2008. This topic is in the wrong board. Should be moved to the lounge and it is also rumored to be a hoax. Unfortunately there is nothing that we can do about it if it is true. We all seem to have the same opinion on this topic. It's already gone off topic as it's turned to chickens and attacking other cultures. Just be proud of where and how we live knowing that when there is cruelty to animals that something is done about it. ie: sled dogs in Whistler

Of course there's a spectrum, that's what I want several people in this thread to understand, especially the one's saying this is exactly the same as what we do, when it isn't. Further to that spectrum, we can place treatment of pets into three different categories; ones which cannot survive, ones that can survive but not thrive, and ones that can both survive and thrive. Anyone who cannot do the latter shouldn't be in this hobby.