Cleaner Wrasse? - Update

[Dabbler]

Originally Posted by marie

rather then getting a fish that isn't overly hardy, and may last less then a month, wouldn't getting neon gobies(proven hardy and available captive bred) be better. Neon gobies are also cleaners and many people on this board have stated that the fish had started "earning their keep" within minutes of being placed in the tank. Just my 2 cents

I got one when I got my PBT and he was all over the PB. I would see him check her over 2-3 times a day. I got him just for this purpose because I was told that a PBT is an ich factory...and she was. I had to give her to a larger tank because she was getting a little agressive in my 120. I have had my gobie for 1 1/2 years so far

[johnny rock]

not sure were you got all your info but any research I've done on RC shows that there IS an impact on the reefs by removing any type of cleaner wrasse.
as well, they have a VERY specialized diet [not ich] that we truly do not understand yet so therefore they 99% will die very shortly.
I've kept cleaner shrimp,neon gobies and wrasses [when I was ill informed] and I still have gobies that are not over a year old and cleaning all the time.
plus, most cleaner wrasses will harrase and even take bites of flesh as they get older [if they live] and this can intern cause other fish deaths.

[reeferaddict]

Can any of the research you've done on RC be scientifically supported? The only definitive research I have been able to find is on captive systems, and suggests that these systems indeed benefit from the presence of these fish. The only studies compiled in nature thus far are in Hawaii regarding the Hawaiian Cleaner Wrasse, and so far are inconclusive until further data can be collected. (If anyone can supply documented scientific information to the contrary PLEASE DO!) Due to initial observations, the collection of the species has been suspended until these studies are complete.

Please be aware that articles posted on RC or any other board shouldn't be taken as necessarily "expert" opinions. Observations by fellow hobbyists should be noted, as well as what environment specimens are being kept in. 15 years ago the cry was out that due to the failure rate we should leave keeping sessile invertebrates to public aquariums and educational institutes. Who would agree with that statement today?

I happen to know a marine biology researcher at our local university that tells me what I am doing is more advanced than what they are able to do in a lab that has a few hundred transient biology students. I asked her about picking up some courses and she advised me that other than the principles of biology, I would be wasting my time and probably feel somewhat underchallenged. She also notes that most of her research is done using dead specimens, while my goal is to keep things alive and thriving.

I am certainly not recommending that EVERYONE go out and get a Cleaner Wrasse. I run a reasonably large system with a complex, mature biodiversity, so obviously it has a better chance of being healthy than if enclosed in a 20 or even 50 gallon system. I would never have considered one of these if I were limited to such a small system and not be sure that I could offer a wide range of biodiversity to offer it's best chance of long term survival.

My Powder Blue Tang is the healthiest it has ever been. The little wrasse has moved on to my Copperband Butterfly which became covered in ich the minute I introduced him to my system. Since he started eating all the feather dusters, (the reason I got him in the first place), and the Cleaner Wrasse started picking away at him, he has come full circle and is totally healthy and eating prepared foods. I am of the opinion that without this service, he may have perished by now. The wrasse eats ANYTHING every time I put food in the tank. He swarms along with the rest of the "school" any time I approach the tank and they think food may be offered. When I have my hands in the tank he always comes up and starts picking at me... I'm sure this isn't in his natural diet, but the behaviour is fascinating. He'll pick away as long as I let him.

In short, please keep the observations coming, the more experiences we can share the better the chances are that we can keep these species thriving in our homes. As long as these specimens are being collected, people will buy them. People can cry until they're blue in the face about reef ethics, but people, most likely inexperienced hobbyists, will continue to buy. Let's use this window of opportunity not to argue ethics, but to learn the most effective methods so we can all enjoy for years to come.

[johnny rock]

even if, even if! there is no effect by taking them out of the ocean,,
you can't refute the evidence that out of say 100! wrasses, most will die in shipping! [they do not ship well at all].
the rest will die in peoples tanks! maybe 10 or 15 might make it but I've only heard/read dismall survival rates from allmost anyone whos try'd. is that not scientific enough for ya??
so keep buying them, the stores will keep supplying them and they'll keep diminishing. sorry, but the math says it all!
I also read many posts were the wrasses have pestered fish after awhile to the point of stress= ich.

[johnny rock]

and I could go on forever posting links to support not using these fish

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm

[reeferaddict]

Here is scientific...

Abstract The ecological significance of cleaner fish on coral reefs was
investigated. I removed all cleaner fish, Labroides dimidiatus, from eight
small reefs, measured the subsequent effect on the abundance and species
composition of all reef fish after 3 and 6 months, and compared it with
eight control reefs with cleaner fish. The removal of cleaner fish had no
detectable effect on the total abundance of fish on reefs and the total
number of fish species at both times. Multivariate analysis by non-metric
multidimensional scaling and ANOSIM pair wise tests based on 191 fish species
revealed no effect of cleaners on the community structure of fish. Similar
results were obtained using principal components analysis on subsets of the
data using the 33 most common fish species and the 15 most abundant species
(\geq5 individuals per reef ) with both log10 (x + 1) transformed data and
with fish numbers standardized for abundance. This study demonstrates that
the removal of cleaner fish for 6 months did not result in fish suffering
increased mortality nor in fish leaving reefs to seek cleaning elsewhere.

This is quoted right from your link. Please submit another quote you can find to the contrary.

Now how about economics? Before I purchased mine I asked about mortality. Of the 3 LFS I polled, all said pretty much the same thing. If only 10 or 15 out of a hundred shipped survived, they couldn't afford to sell them, and certainly not at $10 - $20.

Most suppliers are regulated by import/export regulations that have ecological impact requirements attached. I also noted that the writings that were referenced in the bibliography at the end of the article were at latest 1996 with some references going back to 1973. Anybody remember keeping SW fish in the 80's? A lot has changed since then, certainly our understanding of nature at least.

Please keep on this debate. It's healthy for everyone to voice their views, as the more we do, the sooner we can put this to rest one way or the other. Besides, I like a challenge.

[johnny rock]

okay bud, you know better than the rest of us LOL

I have a well established 500g system and try'd 2 years back when I was dumb. my friend ownes an LFS and won't even order them because why??? he has many suppliers who tell him the same thing.
what ever, do what ya want and learn the hard way! they always do and come back months later posting, ''what happened''

[johnny rock]

more info, like I said, the list go's on and on .

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=688779

[reeferaddict]

You know, if you want to jump on a thread to flame me, I have no problem with that, as long as you can back it up. Thus far, as we get deeper into this, your argument has in fact gotten weaker, so rather than just expressing your frustration over your ill-informed opinion, prove me wrong... please. At least I am open to reading the evidence.

What you have posted so far has produced an actual scientific observation from the University of New Queensland that contradicts your opinion. Thank you for being the first one on this thread to provide actual field observations. My condolences as unfortunately for you, it doesn't support your opinion. Now this thread you have just posted only goes to show further that hobbyists have had a degree of success in keeping them. I see as many if not more posts about people losing Neon Gobies as I do about these guys.

As for my experience in the hobby, I must admit that I feel like there is SO much to learn. Every day I look at my tanks and marvel at the growth and diversity, looking forward to reading and understanding more all the time. The reason I post here at all is to promote friendly discussions sharing views and opinions with other reefers. I don't come on here and "tell" others how to approach the hobby, and if I DO express an opinion I try to qualify it as just that, as I do not consider myself an expert, just an experienced reefkeeper. When something grows and thrives it is very rewarding. When the reverse is true it is very humbling. Humility taught me to research this hobby from top to bottom and become expert in the critical areas. This has turned my experience from one of frustration to one of fascination and enthusiasm.

I congratulate you on your prowess to be able to maintain a 500g system. I can only imagine the logistics of maintaining such a large water volume and the time and dollars involved. Would you be so kind as to share some of your positive experiences, and maybe show us some pictures? Once again I welcome your debate, I just ask that you tone down on the personal comments and allow yourself to communicate at everyone else's level. I guarantee you will receive more respect that way, both here AND RC.

Cheers,

Jim.

[j83]

Have kept them a couple times. Made sure they were in fact eating at the lfs and brought em home. It seems no matter ow much they eat, they NEED to eat parasites off fish to live. My guys ate lots, first time I thought something might have happened as he ate lots of mysis/flake you name it. I tried again when I had an outbreak - cleaned everyone up good, ate mysis then dissapearedone day.

In Fenners book he states that removal from Hawaii does impact the reef as a whole. Can't quote it right now as I am in Australia =). But there is a whole page on it.

It seems they need parasites to survive from what I have read and in personal experiences.

If they are to survive they need a huge tank with big fish that they can pick at throughout the day.

Good debate though, I just think that people should try other alternatives rather get a fish that has a dismal survial record.