Might have to eat my own words re: quarantine

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by reefme

Where are you buying this?

In the US. Big bucks, and I bought enough to treat the pacific ocean

[Myka]

Oh Brad!! This is awful. Sorry I'm so late on the bandwagon here...

I didn't read it all, just the first few page, and last few pages. It sounds like you're not sure if it is velvet or not?

Personally, I won't use copper medication for any reason (I'm sure you've seen me say this before). I really like to use Formalin instead. It is very broad-spectrum...and my go to when I have no idea what is ailing the fish. I have never had it fail me yet. The only thing that is a pain in the butt about Formalin is that you have to dip the fish rather than treating the water in the hospital tank. I don't mind doing this because I'm not a fan of treating the water column anyway...I haven't had a whole lot of luck doing that. Even for antibiotics I prefer to put those into the food.

You said you were having troubles with Prime not working? How are you determining it is not working? Test kits? Which ones? Most test kits are not compatible with Prime. FWIW, AmQuel is half the price and 2x the concentration. BTW, these products need to be dosed daily - just enough to keep the ammonia low - don't go by the dosing instructions. Doing 25% waterchanges 1-2x weekly helps flush all the chems out too and make a big difference. You don't need a cycled filter or water. I've kept dozens of fish in fresh saltwater with nothing but an airstone and/or powerhead for weeks on end. You do have to use a lot of AmQuel or (even more) Prime though.

HTH

[Aquattro]

Thanks Mindy. Pretty sure it's velvet, but the stress may have also triggered some ich. It's all fish, 2 tanks.
Not a fan of copper either, but formalin scares me, I killed a $500 pair of discus once and swore I'd never use it again. This chloroquine sounds promising, and I'm trying that. Lots of references to it's success, so here's hoping.
I know you "can" setup a fresh tank, but it's just too much work with everything else I've got to deal with. The prime didn't work solely based on fish response. Once I got a mature foam block and did a nearly full water change, they settled down a bit. Unfortunately I helped them on their way to dead with ammonia levels first.
I still have a goby in the display that so far seems unaffected and too smart to go into the trap, so until he dies or jumps, the timer for fallow tank doesn't start. Overall, it's been a **** week....

[Myka]

Brad, you probably weren't dosing enough Prime. To give you an idea, I was dosing almost 1 mL per day AmQuel into about 6 gallons holding an adult pair of Darwin clowns. I split the dose into two times per day. Remember AmQuel is twice the concentration of Prime. I like those SeaChem Ammonia Alerts too. They aren't overly accurate as I find the ammonia level is often 10x what the alert says. So if there is even a trace that shows up on the alert I do an extra dose.

I am surprised you killed fish with Formalin. I've never killed a fish with it, and I've used it for the better part of 20 years. Although one has to be very diligent about using a good fine-bubble airstone while dipping the fish. The carcinogenic effect that Formalin has does scare me though, so I only use Formalin as a last resort. I am also very careful when working with it...I use gloves, eye goggles, the whole she-bang. The LC-50 of copper is way too close to the treatment level for me to be comfortable using it. Plus, hobbyist test kits suck in general and copper test kits are no exception so I'm not confident that we can test copper good enough to remain in that small window anyway.

Have you tried fishing for the Goby with a fish hook? Might need a permit.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Myka

Brad, you probably weren't dosing enough Prime. To give you an idea, I was dosing almost 1 mL per day AmQuel into about 6 gallons holding an adult pair of Darwin clowns. I split the dose into two times per day. Remember AmQuel is twice the concentration of Prime. I like those SeaChem Ammonia Alerts too. They aren't overly accurate as I find the ammonia level is often 10x what the alert says. So if there is even a trace that shows up on the alert I do an extra dose.

I am surprised you killed fish with Formalin. I've never killed a fish with it, and I've used it for the better part of 20 years. Although one has to be very diligent about using a good fine-bubble airstone while dipping the fish. The carcinogenic effect that Formalin has does scare me though, so I only use Formalin as a last resort. I am also very careful when working with it...I use gloves, eye goggles, the whole she-bang. The LC-50 of copper is way too close to the treatment level for me to be comfortable using it. Plus, hobbyist test kits suck in general and copper test kits are no exception so I'm not confident that we can test copper good enough to remain in that small window anyway.

Have you tried fishing for the Goby with a fish hook? Might need a permit.

I probably used nowhere close to that amount, so I guess that's why it wasn't effective. I looked at one of those alert stick on things, thought it was pretty hoky looking, so passed.
The formalin was more a math error than anything, I used something like 10x the dose in tank. They were well preserved though...
I haven't researched the LC50 for copper, as I'm more concerned with the long term effects on liver and kidney. with the amount of water marine fish drink, they'd have to process way too much. And yes, testing and adjusting 2 or more times a day with hobbyist equipment is asking for trouble. And scaleless fish are more susceptible. and and and..it goes on, and not a chemical I'll use. I will stock some formalin though, just to have it on hand.

[TimT]

Hi Brad,

Formalin releases Formaldehyde gas which will affect your whole house and family. When doing a Formalin bath it is usually for a half hour and you need to aerate heavily as Formalin depletes the oxygen in the water. For me the risk of exposing my family to a carcinogen is not worth it when there are non toxic methods available.

I would skip the formalin bath as it's nasty for the fish, much worse than copper, and just do a fw bath for 5 minutes. If they have ick go longer if they can take it. If they have ick I would use hyposalinity(1.008) in the QT to control it.

Pretty much all wholesalers and exporters use copper in their holding systems so your fish have already been exposed for at least a month, most likely more as stores generally use copper to.

My recommendation would be the FW dips for the mv and hyposalinity treatment if they have ick.

+1 for Mindy on the Amquel. It is a much better product and doesn't stink like sulfur.

Cheers,
Tim

[Aquattro]

Thanks Tim. I've used formalin before, I know how it affects the house

While FW dips may help alleviate the parasite/protazoan on the fish, it does little to the free floating ones. I've reduced the tank a bit, and will drop it to 1.010 long term, but will continue with the chloroquine. It has no apparent ill effects on the fish, keeps the bacterial filter intact, and other than photosensitivity, keeps it's levels in the tank.

Since I now have a matured system running, I'll keep it going until I replace fish. I still can't keep a q tank going full time, so that's not an option long term.

[TimT]

Hi Brad,

Well you mentioned picking a kidlet up from hospital so I assumed there was kids in the house. Sounds like your familiar with it so enough said.

The FW dip will clean the fish, then if it goes into a sterile tank with new SW it should break the life cycle of the parasites.

I assume you are referring to QT for the 1.010 sg. I found that it wasn't quite therapeutic at that level, hence recommending the 1.008. I started trying the hypo at 1.012 but found that it became effective at 1.008. Hypo does not work against mv, only ick and flukes.

Cheers,
Tim

[Myka]

Brad, if you do get some Formalin 10% is easy to deal with... 0.1 mL per 1 liter of bath water. Most stuff sold for fish is 37% though which is also easy...1 mL per 1 gallon.

Originally Posted by TimT

I would skip the formalin bath as it's nasty for the fish, much worse than copper,

Cheers,
Tim

Good point on the Formaldehyde gas. I use it in our back room with the door closed and the windows open.

Where do you get the info that Formalin is worse for fish than copper? I've never heard that, and in my experiences I have had much better luck with Formalin than copper.

[vaporize]

Sorry to hear about the losses Brad.

Actually if it is really velvet, chloroquinine phosphate would not be fast enough in treating it. Even cupramine is too slow for most cases, I would actually use the pure copper salt copper sulfatate in QT. I know how you said copper is bad for the fish in long term but what if there isn't a "long term" for them anymore - it's either you cure them or they are gone.

CP is good for using in the QT when new fish arrives, I've seen places that treat it on all new shipments; the speed it can get to the fish is questionable though.

Formalin is basically a burning agent, whatever it can burn in the water or on the fish, it kills. Formalin alone does not cure MV in most cases and it takes off fish's slime coat. It should not be used if fish has open wounds either or it kills them.

MV is one of the reasons why people QT their fish