Swine Flu/H1N1 Vaccination - Yes or No?

[Ron99]

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

whats the difference between what you say and Wikipedia? bring me some facts bro. your just saying things. not to say they arnt true. i would just like to know your sources on these things:

Well, I have university degrees in toxicology and pharmacology and have spent umpteen years working in pharmaceutical R&D as well as diagnostic microbiology labs so I think that makes me more qualified then some guy making youtube videos etc. or people regurgitating stuff on wikipedia If you really want to do research read things from real scientific websites or publications. Stuff from real experiments and real testing in real labs or real clinical trials with actual data to support the conclusions.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

there is less mercury in a shot of vaccine then in a can of tuna

Most testing puts the level of mercury in canned tuna at between .3 and about .55 parts per million (depending on what type of tuna you eat). I won't list all the calculations but that works out to well over 50 micrograms of methylmercury in an average serving of tuna. The vaccine contains 5 micrograms of thimerosal which is also a much less toxic mercury containing compound then methylmercury. if you want to get really picky, thimerosal contains just under 50% mercury by weight so you are getting about 2.5 micrograms of mercury from the vaccine. Methylmercury contains about 93% mercury so your serving of tuna is over 46.5 micrograms of mercury.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

H1N1 is currently not the most deadly flu ever, it is more serious then the normal seasonal flu

There have been numerous flu pandemics in the past with much more deadly strains of flu then the current H1N1. Somebody asked earlier about the PB1-F2 protein which is a protein some flu viruses produce that increases their ability to kill the cells they infect. It appears that some of the viruses from those deadlier pandemics did produce PB1-F2. Production of that protein has been shown to cause significantly more inflammation and higher mortality rates in the infected animals. The H1N1 virus does contain the gene to produce the PB1-F2 protein but it is currently turned off by a stop codon in the DNA code (basically a label in the DNA that says do not encode this gene right now). It is not inconceivable that the virus could mutate and this stop codon would be removed therefore activating the PB1-F2 gene and creating a more virulent and deadly strain of H1N1. Don't ask me the odds of that. I'm not a viral geneticist. But I know enough to know it could happen and the odds of it happening are more likely the more the virus reproduces. So reduce the spread of the virus, you reduce the occurrence of viral reproduction and you reduce the number of mutations that occur so therefore there is a lower chance of this mutation happening. The flu virus is constantly mutating, probably in your own body when you catch the flu. The majority of these mutations are either neutral or negative to the virus but statistically speaking, the more often mutations occur the greater the chance of a mutaion that makes the virus stronger.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

the small amounts of these compounds found in the vaccine are not toxic. I REPEAT, NOT TOXIC.

Okay, everybody else who is a toxicologist, raise your hand I do know a bit about this stuff.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

more people infected and the more it spreads, the greater the chance it could mutate into an even more virulent and deadly strain. Large scale vaccination can help prevent that.

See above. Basic genetics, evolution and virology.

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

Trace amounts of formaldehyde means barely detectable in the vaccine. Your own body probably produces more formaldehyde through your own metabolism then you will find in the vaccine and has mechanisms to deal with and excrete it.

I really don't want to get into a whole textbook on biochemistry and physiology. You'll have to trust me on that one or do some reading about it yourself. Your body produces a lot of noxious waste material as it goes about its daily business and it also takes in many toxic compounds normally through our food, water and air. We have evolved wonderful mechanisms to break down and excrete all sorts of things. Formaldehyde is a very common compound in nature and one which your body is more than capable of dealing with unless you are drinking an entire bottle of it.

As for those side effects, that is typical lawyer super conservative stuff. If 1 in 1000 people suffered those kinds of side effects from flu vaccines then there would be a public outcry every flu season and we would not be using them so commonly. The odds of having those severe reactions are probably more like 1 in a million.

[FitoPharmer]

Originally Posted by pinhead

Now we're getting a little off topic. This started out with people's real but uninformed fears of the vaccine to weird Libertarian conspiracy theories.

Originally Posted by Ron99

I do think conspiracy theories are silly. Do you really think secret societies of powerful people are controlling the world? Not likely. Have you seen the egos these people have? Can you imagine Donald Trump, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs etc. being able to work together and agree on things to control the world? Not really likely

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeYgLLahHv8
so JFK was just pulling our leg?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
or Eisenhower?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdqA4rjrAbM
Woodrow Wilson too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdqA4rjrAbM

yeah, i guess the former presidents of the united states don't have much insight on the true workings of the world we live. don't forget the last answer on the poll guys

[FitoPharmer]

It is not inconceivable that the virus could mutate and this stop codon would be removed therefore activating the PB1-F2 gene and creating a more virulent and deadly strain of H1N1

i'm not doubting that. but at the same time didn't this flu come from a random mutation of swine flu, avian flu, and an older strain of influenza that is causing us our problems now? sorry about initial skepticism some people who come up with complex answers like you were in such a short time are often BS'ing . from the umpteen years working in pharmaceutical R&D as well as diagnostic microbiology lab you must know about the million of different types of bacteria and viruses there are. how many could possibly change and become deadly?
and when that happens do we make a new vaccine for this mutation? and that mutations mutation, untill we receive 3 or 4 seasonal flu shots?
and if we just keep taking a vaccines for every meager illness that comes along what effect will that have on our immune systems in the long term?
do we really understand the processes in which viral natural selection work well enough to start making judgments on whats best for the human immune system over vast amounts of time?
do we ever care to look or think about 10 or even 100 years down the road?
i would agree that some vaccines do outweigh the slight risks (and yes even in my mind they are very slim) but in my mind there are greater challenges killing way more innocent lives in our world that need to be dealt with before making such a hype fest out of this shot. IMO if saving lives is your business, making vaccines is an awful expensive way to go about it.

as for the rest of the toxicology stuff, i must admit i'm not expert.
but whats your opinion on aspartame from a toxicological point of view?
i find one of the few things in our society that is still always innocent until proven guilty are chemicals.
at what point does something safe in small doses start to add up because it in everything?
how many shots will eventually contain these or worse preservatives in the future?
i assume, if we do like you suggest and vaccinate every time a mild virus comes by how many more vaccines might there be in 50 years?
there are many things you can do to naturally stimulate your immune system, like exercise, but look at the obesity problems faced by many. is a shot, that doesn't even give near 100% protection worth the time and effort spent?
would getting more people to eat healthy and exercise have a far greater impact with drastically less costs?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by pinhead

Now we're getting a little off topic. This started out with people's real but uninformed fears of the vaccine to weird Libertarian conspiracy theories.

Conspiracies are not off topic since they are included in the poll. I'm still absolutely amazed at how many people find it that impossible to believe there is more to the world than they know. This is not a world of equals and never will be. Think of the Rothschild family.

Do people really think because they are scientists and can explain every ingredient in a vaccine, off a list that was provided to them, that it means everything is as it seems? I don't mean any disrespect and as I said earlier I don't necessarily think this one is a conspiracy but not everything can be explained in a lab.

Someone please explain to me how it is so impossible for a conspiracy to be possible?

[crysmom]

I would like to mention something about the mercury comments above- eating 50 micrograms of tuna is very different than injecting 5 micrograms. Your body has all sorts of systems in place to filter out toxins but when you chose to inject the toxins you are bypassing all of those "filter systems"

[VFX]

Originally Posted by pinhead

Now we're getting a little off topic. This started out with people's real but uninformed fears of the vaccine to weird Libertarian conspiracy theories.

Conspiracies are definitely not off topic. I started this thread & conspiracies very a part of it. This has been a great thread & I hope I'm not the only one to admit learning a thing or to from reading it.

I don't think you can use 'uninformed' as a blanket term to describe people's fears here. There are a lot of people out there who think it's actually the 'uninformed' who have no fear of the H1N1 vaccine.

Great that we have Ron here to provide real scientific answers but also, worrying that so many others ridicule the possibility that so many of us think that something doesn't seem right about the whole thing.

As GSP says, "how it is so impossible for a conspiracy to be possible?"

.

[marie]

Originally Posted by GreenSpottedPuffer

Conspiracies are not off topic since they are included in the poll. I'm still absolutely amazed at how many people find it that impossible to believe there is more to the world than they know. This is not a world of equals and never will be. Think of the Rothschild family.

Do people really think because they are scientists and can explain every ingredient in a vaccine, off a list that was provided to them, that it means everything is as it seems? I don't mean any disrespect and as I said earlier I don't necessarily think this one is a conspiracy but not everything can be explained in a lab.

Someone please explain to me how it is so impossible for a conspiracy to be possible?

It's a man made product, why couldn't they explain every ingredient?

I keep an open mind about the stupid and evil things that the rich and powerful are capable of and nothing would really surprise but one has to use their common sense....Being powerful would be meaningless if you killed off all us little people

[intarsiabox]

Originally Posted by FitoPharmer

i mean who would come to trust some person who comes to extort you every year?
ex⋅tor⋅tion
  /ɪkˈstɔrʃən/ [ik-stawr-shuhn]
–noun
1. an act or instance of extorting.
2. Law. the crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one's office or authority.
3. oppressive or illegal exaction, as of excessive price or interest: the extortions of usurers.
4. anything extorted.

So I guess you built and maintained all the roads you drive on? Pay for the police force so you're not murdered or robbed daily? Pay for the military so you're not working in a concentration camp? Pay for the doctors, hospitals and ambulances for broken bones, cancer, etc.? The endless social list goes on. Talk about thinking that the world owes you a living! The money isn't always spent wisely but all those essential services are there and available to all Canadians. Extortion would imply that you are getting nothing in return but you are just taking for granted everything you have in one of the best countries in the world. Our high standard of living doesn't come free. I bitch about taxes too but people need to stop and think about what hey are getting and also think of others being helped with disabilities or handicaps who would otherwise lead very short miserable lives. I am young, healthy and working and this group pays the most so it is easy to feel ripped off, but health and age change very quickly.

[The Codfather]

I can hardy stand to read this anymore, it is obvious to me that some people on here do not have kids or family members. I cannot believe that some people would not get this vaccine to save lives and reduce the chance of severity to family members. I have a six week old baby at home and if i brought this into my house and gave it too my children and something terrible was to happen, i would never forgive myself. Wake up people, this is not some conspiracy, this is the beginning of a pandemic, do what you will, but remember this. If you or your family decide not to take the vaccine, I truly hope you are not the one, sitting at a bedside watching as another is on a ventilator. I cannot and will not take that chance with my family. Bottom line- What are you willing to risk?

[GreenSpottedPuffer]

Originally Posted by marie

It's a man made product, why couldn't they explain every ingredient?

I keep an open mind about the stupid and evil things that the rich and powerful are capable of and nothing would really surprise but one has to use their common sense....Being powerful would be meaningless if you killed off all us little people

Well in this case I agree that that list of ingredients is probably accurate but I just meant unless people are actually testing it themselves, who's to say the list they are getting is complete. Talk all you want about regulations and testing but there are ALWAYS ways around it.

I don't recall the percentage but its well above 50% and I think closer to 80% of large corporation CEO's show behavioral and emotional characteristics of psychopathy, meaning they show chronic disregard for ethical principles and antisocial behavior. I'm sure many other powerful people/families are no different. Being powerful often times means they do not care in any way, shape or form about the little people. I think the theory of wanting to kill all but 500, 000 million people is out there too but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true that someone or an organization wants it that way and thats my only point...its possible. Dont think it will ever happen.

It wasnt all that long ago there was a dictator who tried to establish a New Order in Europe and came VERY close to succeeding after occupying most of Europe, North Africa and parts of Asia. I dont think people like this are thinking too much about how many of the little guy survive.

But I also dont believe that swine flu or the vaccine are part of any conspiracy...I just dont see how conspiracies are so silly.