Contest #2
 

Can we all start discussing this?

I want in on it this time around!

I'd also like to propose the following changes;

1) that you don't have to use a stock tank, you can build something, but we use a max number of gallons/liters. Proof can be provided with photos and a ruler or measuring tape.

2) encorporate any feedback that the original entrants have to offer

No comments yet, but I want to follow along on this one.

did I miss something?

What contest are we talking about?

This is for the Canreef Nano Contest. Here is a link to the original one.

Shorter deadline, six months is too long for a nano IMO, and less constraints would be good. Perhaps limit total system volume and nothing else ;)

I like that suggestion.

So by shorter deadline, are you thinking like 3 months, 4 months?

E.g. build a tank with a budget of XXX that does not exceed a total system volume of 50g? Is that what you're thinking?

I agree with a shorter running time, but a longer preparation, building tank time. I also don't think a Nano contest should be done during the summer due to heating issues, unless you are allowing tying in to your main system. Isn't a nano traditionally under 20 gal?

Depends on your definition of what the nano is. Is it just the display tank, or is it the total system volume?

What would you suggest then? 2 months for prep & build, and 2 months for the system to mature?

I personally don't care if we run it in the summer or not because I don't have heat issues. However, it is something to take into consideration.

I would probably be in as long as it DOES have a budget and is say 30G and under. Otherwise its kind of pointless to have a contest with no rules, especially with no budget. And as long as I can build my own tank ;)

I think something like a month to prepare equipment and then a few months to add livestock at which point adding livestock/equipment is done and then a few more months to mature as is. Kind of like a 'trade' deadline for pro sports where after a certain point, you are competing with what you have got and no more added. Then people can actually focus on their livestock instead of changing the tank constantly. So maybe 6 months...1 month prep, 2 months of stocking and then 3 months to mature as is. Personally I would like to see two deadlines...one at a month in where no more equipment is to be added (unless something breaks and it can be replaced with the SAME thing) and then one two months later where no more livestock is added (even if something dies as that is part of the contest or the rule could be that you can replace it with the SAME species, either way would work).

We need to make these things a challenge rather than just another tank build.

And maybe a theme HAS to be given/explained from the start and stuck to or you loose points. See who can actually make an idea come to life kind of thing.

I just think the less amount of rules you have for these things, the more boring the contest gets. If there are no rules other than tank size, then its not a contest really. Its just another TOTM kind of thing. Whats the point?

"Depends on your definition of what the nano is. Is it just the display tank, or is it the total system volume?"
Interesting point. Something that should be definately laid out in the rules very, very clearly.

"What would you suggest then? 2 months for prep & build, and 2 months for the system to mature?"
I would suggest that to start 2 months of chatter would be needed to get all the rules set first so there are no changes or special allowances needed during the contest. 2 months would probably be enough time for those wanting to do a very special build. I think though a tank needs at least 4 months to start to mature and look good.

"I personally don't care if we run it in the summer or not because I don't have heat issues. However, it is something to take into consideration."This would be totally up to those who are willing to put their time into running the contest.

Summer should have nothing to do with it. If you can't keep the tank going in the summer, you shouldn't be setting it up.

Ok here are my thoughts, I wasn't going to get into this originally and hey maybe I still won't, but I'll run the contest if you guys need someone to do board stuff and moderate etc.

OK here goes:

I think there should still be the main categories of stock tanks. If you guys want a custom tank category then thats easy to do, set a limit on price or just do glass only.

IMO nano tanks are less than 20gallons, thats just me.

I also think that 6 months is a good timeline. I mean really, are you guys just wanting to set these up and then take them down? Lets face it, anyone who knows what they're doing (or even not knows what they're doing) can throw a bunch of livestock into a newly setup tank, take a photo and then tear it down. Whats the point of that? I thought it was points for creativity and design as well as keeping stuff alive? Personally, I think the big challenge is keeping stuff going in a small water volume (anyone seen my caulerpa factory lately, its a freaking challenge, let me tell you).

Budgets, well I dunno, this seemed to be a contentious issue last time. I would find it much more challenging to come up with a neat theme/design on a limited budget rather than go whole hog and have scads of money to throw into this thing. I guess a larger budget than last time but not overly? Perhaps a set budget for equipment and one for livestock and not have them interchangeable?

Ok those are my thoughts. Feel free to tell me to get lost if you like. Remember I wield the ban stick though :razz: (just kidding of course!)

I would get in on this one. last one i was going to but it would have set back my 60gal and i have been iching to get a nano going again upstairs.

I do think 6 months is a decent time line

set the rules down, i shall be waiting to hear what is going to happen

I like the idea of 3 months with another 1 month for setup. 6 months is too long. To ensure the contenders are creating sustainable systems no livestock can be added or removed in the last month.

I also think the budget is silly, all it did was cause arguments and problems. Bottom line is you don't have to spend a lot to have a nice tank, and prices vary dramatically. Contenders should still record the budget and I think people will be more impressed with a system that cost very little but still nice.

At the very least only apply a budget to the equipment (all equipment) and allow a free budget for livestock.

Also volume wise, total system volume 20 gallons or less. Any tank, custom or stock. A large percentage dropped out because of tank failure, cheap 10gallons with thin glass are bad news, I'm surprised mine is still holding. No connecting other systems, that is an unfair advantage as stability is main challenge for a nano.

Would there be a minimum size? i.e would pico tanks in the 2 to 5 gallon range qualify?

catherine... feel free to run with this one... more power to ya! :lol:

I think as long as the volume is the same in the contest its all good. who cares about the shape.

As for the money factor, its a contest. the whole point is to challange yourself in creating something gorgous with a budget. imo i would up the budget a bit and only have it for livestock. I think $500 on livestock should be good. Also the whole point in the 6 month deal is to let the tank mature. I know in 3 months a tank can look good, but thats from buying AAA coral.

sphelps, your tank is gorgous but at my LFS that stuff would add up really fast.

I think if the contest set specific volumes or tanks like the last one I would be less likely to participate (not that my participation is a deal breaker for the contest :razz:). I think it might be fun to run it more open and set a maximum volume like 20 gallons or 24 gallons etc. and see what people come up with. I have a couple pico builds in mind (have just begun one in fact) that I could enter but they are not standard tanks.

lol see the last issue with the previous contest was adjusting your volume of the tank (not total including sump). Say if it was set at 20 gals, you could do any diamention that you can as long as it was 20gals instead of a standerd 10gal.

I guess we will just have to see how everything turns out. My next set of days off i am going to clean up my 20 tall. it has been iching for a softy tank for a while now.

I agree.

IMO keep it simple then this time. I had all kinds of idea earlier but forget it...

Just set a max tank size, max budget (one for equipment and one for livestock) and a deadline. Keep with the monthly photos or just let people fly with their builds and post how they want like the regular build threads.

Ok, here are my thoughts. don't even start till fall first of all, its not about keeping a tank going during the summer, but rather lots of people who would probably compete would maybe like to have holidays and maybe move across the Provence before starting a new tank build. :mrgreen:

I think size limitations should be on display tank only, other wise you have to add sumps, skimmers, refuge, ect.. If your going to build a tank make it big enough to want it.. say a 30 gal or less. I consider anything under 30 a nano personally.

It does need a budget, but something may not need to be included. I think the cost of the tanks, should be included personally. also plumbing parts, live rock, sand, corals (actual paid price, not a generic price) fish, lights, ect...

but if some one needs a chiller maybe not have that included in the budget. this is a environmental thing, I know in my old house I needed a chiller with just PC lights, because it was insulated like junk and the front room would heat up over 18 degrees on a warm summer evening, but if you have central air you wouldn't need it.

I would like to see a very long build time, say 6 months to put water in from the start. this will allow some one to take the time and build a stand with out rushing it, or even just to figure out what there going to build and how.

I found with the current contest the short build time went buy to fast, then there were a bunch of instant tanks. with not much progression after two months with water in them. I would rather see also a two or three month cycle period. after that who knows.

now I know all the impatient people are going to hate this, but I don't want to see a bunch of instant tanks for the sake of a contest, but would rather see well thought out additions to the hobby.

Steve

My ideas/comments in point form just so it's easy to read.

IMO:

~ 6 months is perfect. Anything less and it doesn't even look like a tank yet, imo.
~ Take the budget restriction off.
~ Two categories - under $300 and over $300 (or whatever $$ amount).
~ Price limitation on equipment only (livestock is so difficult to judge a fair price). Besides, it doesn't take much to have $500 of livestock in a 10g...
~ Restricted to a 20 gallon display - it IS a "nano".
~ Unlimited on sump size (if utilized) provided the system is self-contained ie not hooked up to another display tank.
~ OR limit sump to 20 gallons as well (doesn't matter if you only have 5g in it, the total volume of the sump can't be more than 20).
~ AND/OR limit refugium...? Include in the 20g limitation for the sump? So you could have a 5g fuge, and a 15g sump?
~ NOT restricted to "standard" tanks.

I like these ideas.

Maybe a list of 'exempt' equipment like chillers, heaters, or anything else that is as you said 'environmental'. I think that even the playing field but is still very fair.

I also agree about additions to the hobby instead of a bunch of temp tanks.

The problem with a livestock budget is who decides on pricing? Actual paid price, fair enough but some will pay much less than others and I for one have gotten many corals for basically nothing and on the other hand have also overpaid on occasion. I remember having to measure coral and post pics of this being done because of anonymous complaints and I know for sure having people make up whatever price they feel like will cause problems. The standard price list probably maintained the sanity to the best degree possible but as you all now it wasn't even close to real so in the end it was pretty pointless and limited people to what they can do with their tanks. For example not many people found it inefficient to use frags as it was too expensive on the budget, going with larger corals was essentially the only way to fill the tank on budget. In addition the same type of coral can vary with price dependent on coral or variation not just location. Simply too complicated and I honestly see no point.

Hardware on the other hand is pretty easy, a budget could be applied.

Restrictions are needed for the contest but apply it to something that can easily be monitored and controlled. Tank volume for sure and limit total volume, the most challenging part of a nano is the limited volume. A 100 gallon sump wold defeat the purpose.

Perhaps another restriction could be power consumption, limit the total allowable "rated" wattage of the system.

I'm not sure I get the chiller idea, a nano shouldn't need one as a fan should accommodate any heat problems. The smaller volume will also not hold in heat like a larger tank.

And 6 months just to build a nano, come on that's just a little much don't you think? One month should be plenty.

I agree that one month is plenty of time to build. Or give people the option of 6 weeks if they want? But 6 months? Wow...

na, 6 months is good, it should be the minimum time for any tank from what I have seen happen in local LFS.

The only way a large sump will have is increasing stability and success for longevity for the tank and inhabitants. anything smaller than a 33 is a nano to a lot of people, and with a 33 or smaller MH is a very real possibility for lighting.
heck I would put MH on a 15, if I could find a small enough set up :mrgreen:

the only problem with a under/over 300 is that once you buy lights you are over

an idea might be to have a under / over 1000 on hardware, then do your preset price list with a limit on live stock but bring into account live rock and sand also. skimp on the rock and get nicer and bigger corals or fish, go heavy on the rock and you will limit the coral or fish, makes you decide and really think of what a good balance would be.

Steve

one month is good for some one with no job, or has 100% of there free time to work on it. It also really limits creativity as you just don't have the time to do the stuff, unless your rich then you can just buy everything done. some people actualy have to save up for a bit to do something, then save again to do something else.

Steve

I have full time job and a part time business and I built my tank in one night, a month is reasonable but sorry anyone that takes 6 months to setup a nano is just slow. And if it takes six months just to save up for hardware for a contest tank on canreef you should probably invest that money elsewhere, you don't have to spend a lot. My hardware cost $79

You are so ridiculous man. Between your comments here and in the other rules area likening the organizing committee to Nazi's, I refuse to enter if you are involved as I think you look to start conflict.

Livestock having a flat 'rate' or value is great.

Anyways, have fun guys! :razz:

Sounds more like fear of loosing :lol:

Not really interested in entering the next one just trying to provide a little insight. I'm usually just looking out for others interests in general not my own. I'll be quiet now.

Cheers

No its a lot more personal than.

I dunno, doesn't really seem to take that much time. It's just a nano. You could always do a 5 gal instead of a bigger one, which is what I would do. Saves time and money. :)

Why not take a page out of nano-reefs, look at what they are doing contest wise. Ones like the nanocube specific custom/stock are great imo cause everyone starts off on the same level ground, it doesn't turn into a contest of who has the most money to blow... Or atleast minimizes it and turns the focus more to the build and the contents.

ok this takes the cake for the biggest douchebag comment ever posted on this site. Don't flaunt your income on this site.

I'm sorry but alot of people can't just dish out $500 in a night for a nano contest. See like i was saying last night, with what you are saying were better off re-naming the build threads as the build contests since you do not want a minimum tank size, or a budget. whats the point of a contest than? your better off just starting a thread in the normal build section.

I agree with greenspottedpuffer, if sphelps is in the contest count me out as well

Interesting comments....

I'm not up for running this to start. Christy if you'd like that job, I'd love to have you do it! You're fair, and funny, so its all good!

As for the other comments on what is a "nano" size. I think we should probably poll it because its really opinion there is not firm size that defines nano that I've seen. We should also probably make sure to be very clear when we vote as to if we are voting on TOTAL volume or just DISPLAY volume.

I'm not too big on starting with a stock tank. Like previously mentioned I'm wary of the initial product and concerned about even trying to drill it, etc. Again, probably should be put to a vote. If some want to use stock tanks, go for it, if you don't, all the power to you.

I also agree with the mention of two separate budgets, one for hardware and livestock. I also think we should exempt a bunch of "environmental necessities" like chillers, because not everyone needs one, and forcing something like that to come out of someone's budget is a fun-killer.

Aside from the comments about who is in/out because of others, would anyone be opposed to voting on some of the basics? Stock tank or not, total volume vs. system volume, etc.

We should also discuss a budget once we've decided on sizes, as well we should look at an entrance fee, and look for potential sponsors.

Anything else?

Holey crap people, can I remind you this is JUST an internet board??? Whew.

Its likely I'm going to kick myself later but yes I will run this one.

I think we'll have several categories to suit everyone, why not a free for all category for those of us that have money to burn. In this case it will be about system design as well as tank design.

Binare is right, IMO the whole idea behind the contest originally was that everyone started on a level playing ground. It was what you could do with a 10g stock tank that was supposed to be impressive. I think whats happening here is that people are wanting to be more creative with the technical side of things not the biological and I can certainly get behind that.

But I still think the whole point of the "contest" is being overlooked, the point was how "creative" you could get with limited funds.

So here is what I think:

see what interest there is in running the following categories:

*stock 5.5 (limited budget) rated on aquascaping, contents and creativity

*stock 10 (limited budget) rated as above

*stock 5.5 (unlimited budget) rated as above

*stock 10 (unlimited budget) rated as above

* custom (limited budget) aquascaping contents creativity, tank design

*custom (no budget limits) aquascaping, contents, creativity, system design

Tanks can be no larger than 20 gallons. For the stock categories, if a sump is wanted the sump can be no larger than the stock tank.

This way I think we keep the integrity of the contest (which to me is to do the best you can with a stock tank and limited budget) as well as satisfy those that want to go beyond that.

I still think the 6 months should stick. Regardless of whether you have a million dollars and can afford all the bits and pieces you need, not everyone is an acrylic engineer or has the time to spend putting together their tank in a 24 hour period. I say 2 months to plan, get your stuff together and get water in it. Then 4 months to fruition.

Anyway just my two cents. I can start a poll for interest in the above categories I've laid out if its warranted.

Thank you Christy! I would run this, or help you run it, but I want to participate.

I am hoping for a total system volume of say 30-50g, and then maybe a limitation on the display tank. So displays no larger the 20g sounds good to me

Just to clarify, lets say I have a 20g tank and I add on an external overflow, that would push me over the 20g limit correct?

I like what you've laid out, and I think with just a few additions, budget rules, etc. we'll be good to go.

Nope external overflows are fine, I know the "limitations" on drilling the smaller thinner glassed tanks (never had any success myself). As long as the tank itself is 20g or less I would imagine it would be ok, the overflow could be considered part of the sump or just another piece of equipment much like a hang on skimmer or something.

Sounds good.

I guess we should find out how JDigital felt about the entry fees. Were they enough, etc.

What else do we need?
- Start & end dates
- Contestants
- Sticky with rules
- Sponsors?
- Prizes?
- Winning lotto tickets

I'll throw in my 2 cents here and then wait for the contest to actually start.

I personally have fun building tanks on a buget, but I really like the various categories that Christy has posted.
I also agree with the "no livestock (coral/fish/invert etc) to be added or removed by a certain date" thing....that's a rad Idea.

I think if we go total system volume up to 50 gallons with a Display NO LARGER than 20 that'd be cool. I've got 10 gallons out the wazzoo, so will be using a stock 10 anyways, but I'd love to see what people come up with.

Anyways, count me in for the 10 gallon on a budget one.