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-   -   Milad's 72in LED build (http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=70413)

Milad 12-02-2010 11:34 PM

Milad's 72in LED build
 
Lets get this party started! ---- WARNING THIS IS MY FIRST LED BUILD ----
I knew as much as you did before i started this build, but its actually quick pickup after knowing nothing about aquariums and building a 180g i think LED is easier.


So i needed something to do during the Christmas break so what better way to spend my time than building a nice 72in LED for my 180G tank.

Link to my tank build is in my signature but there are a few things to know about the tank.
No canopy
2 dividers every 24in
peninsula!


So basically I have to work with the parameters above. Having no canopy is good and bad, I probably wont need fans if I have good heatsinks because its open air above it but I have to make it look clean since everyone can see it! gota hide those wires.

Dividers suck because I have to pick the correct optics so shine the light and the correct size of the modules.

What I will be building is 3 module system. Each module will be plug in play. Currently im going with only 2 drivers for all the modules. This could change. The drivers will be dimmable and attach directly into my apex controller.

I will be buying LEDs from the group buy I started which is located:
http://www.LEDGroupBuy.com

sick deal hey?!

im going with
XP-G CW 60
XP-E RB 84

+ 144 40degree optics

Total of 144 emitters

To run the whites I will be going with:
Mean Well HLG-240H-42B

To run the royal blues I will be going with:
Mean Well HLG 240H-54B


That will give me a 42% cool white 58% royal blue to achieve something in the 14-15k color range, equivalent to 250-400w MH.


Here is a preliminary idea of what the fixture will look like (will probably incase everything in black plexi):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2361330/Aqua...d/LED/LED1.jpg


more to come soon

Quick Links:
Initial wiring diagram with parts list

martinmcnally 12-02-2010 11:47 PM

Sounds good. I tried building an LED bar to supplement my T5s unfortunately I failed miserably. I found it really really hard to solder wire onto the CREE LED points. The solder would not stick properly unless I scratched the little metal solder point on the LED, then it kind of worked but would also easily break off with a little nudge. I might try another experiment but maybe I am missing something with the soldering. I was thinking maybe you needed to drill a whole in the solder point and feed the wire though it like you would see on a circuit board with components soldered on.

Martin

Milad 12-02-2010 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinmcnally (Post 569873)
Sounds good. I tried building an LED bar to supplement my T5s unfortunately I failed miserably. I found it really really hard to solder wire onto the CREE LED points. The solder would not stick properly unless I scratched the little metal solder point on the LED, then it kind of worked but would also easily break off with a little nudge. I might try another experiment but maybe I am missing something with the soldering. I was thinking maybe you needed to drill a whole in the solder point and feed the wire though it like you would see on a circuit board with components soldered on.

Martin

i haven't soldered for years but if i remember correctly its like an art.
just takes a few tries soldering a few together

also did you have pretinned wire? you dont want to heat up the led solder too much otherwise boom goes the led.

Bloodasp 12-03-2010 12:08 AM

You need to use flux. If you have to scratch the copper clad in order for the lead to stick to the board it means the copper has a thin film of oxidation that you need to clean out, otherwise you get a cold solder or it won't even stick.

DiverDude 12-03-2010 01:00 AM

Using a flux-core solder should be fine unless the LEDs are old and/or been improperly stored -in which case the copper pads may be oxidized.

Most soldering difficulties come from improper technique. It's important to remember that you are joining TWO metal surfaces with a 3rd metal (solder) and therefore BOTH surfaces must be hot enough to melt solder. A decent soldering iron is also good to have. A reasonable iron will cost a good $50 at Active. Good brands include Hakko and Weller.

-And try not to breathe the fumes from the solder; NOT good for you.

Bloodasp 12-03-2010 05:59 AM

I agree that a lot has to do with improer soldering techniques. I have yet to see solder meant for electronics without a flux core, even the lead free ones I have used always contain them, from the sound of what he said though that he had to scratch the component to get some soldering to happen he definitely needs it.
And also boring a hole through the track of an smd mounted component is not a good idea as they are normally too small that drilling a hole through them would likely cause it to peel off.

martinmcnally 12-03-2010 11:28 PM

So I just checked out my solder and its Rosin core! ah ha! Maybe I need to try this again with flux core?

I wonder if I fried the driver in the process :o$

martinmcnally 12-03-2010 11:31 PM

Oh no wait, Rosin is flux haha so back to squire one.

makana 12-04-2010 12:09 AM

pure solder doesn't work well, the resin core is a cleaning agent that helps remove impurities and allow the solder to stick. If you are having to scratch at the metal to get it to stick then it isn't clean. You could try cleaning it with alcohol or scuffing it up with a scotch brite. You need to get the metal hot enough for the solder to bond without overheating it. When the temperature is right if you dab the solder on it will travel along the metal. If you are soldering to surface mount copper pads on a circuit board be carefull. If it is clean it shouldn't take much to heat it up. Too much and it will lift the trace from the board.

mseepman 12-04-2010 06:25 PM

Looking forward to seeing this...I am planning an LED build myself for my 290G peninsula once I finally get the damn house built.

I was planning on doing a blend of CW and RB crees but after researching for countless hours, it appears to me that there is a real need for some Neutral Whites and even a few standard blues in the mix to give you the coloration that we are used to with MH and or T5.

Where are you getting your heatsinks? Where are the big meanwells coming from? Are you planning to balance the forward voltage on your parallel setups or are you just going to keep the voltage low enough to handle an issue if it arrises?

I plan to do about 200 LED's and that would mean a lot of the small ELN meanwells which is a problem. My issue is that all the threads over on RC seem to put the fear of GOD into people who plan to go parallel on their LED setups rather than serial.

Looking forward to hearing how you plan to do all this.

Milad 12-04-2010 07:09 PM

from my first post you will see im going 2 drivers only for all 144 leds.
one for CW and one for RB so i can dim them seperatley

im actually doing a diagram right now to handle any issues with the parallel design, it should be fail safe. I should have it up within next couple hours.

Drivers are coming from cdiweb.com
Heatsinks are coming from heatsinkusa.com
Extra odds and ends are coming for digikey.ca

ill be posting links to each of the parts too for others reading.

Milad 12-04-2010 09:04 PM

So here is the wiring diagram and parts list

The resistors are there to easily measure the amps since this is a parallel design.
Fuses are in for "o ****" protection
Terminal blocks for ease of wiring

Doing this setup doesnt really give me plug in play modules but rather a full 72in fixture.

Resistors x 12: $1.05 ea
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...me=UB5C-1.0-ND

1A Fuses x 12 (for Royal Blues): These are 1A. And could be used in most cases in 700ma up to maybe 900mA setups. $0.83 ea
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...ame=F3169CT-ND

1.5A Fuses x 12 (for Cool Whites): could be used in most cases in 1.2A up to maybe 1.4A setups. $0.83 ea
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...&name=F2319-ND

Terminal Block x 4: These are 12 position $3.80ea
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...name=A98510-ND

Terminal Block Jumper x 20: $.025 ea
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...&name=A0139-ND

10x10 Heatsink x 3 $31.17 ea
http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/products/...x-10-inch.html
*note might be changing this due to weight issues

****NOTE THIS DRIVER HAS CHANGED BECAUSE IT WILL NOT DIM UNDER 50%**********
Cool white dimmable driver (HLG-240-42B 42v 5.72 amps) $118.31
http://wattsupply.com/s.nl/it.A/id.3056/.f

****NOTE THIS DRIVER HAS CHANGED BECAUSE IT WILL NOT DIM UNDER 50%**********
Royal Blue dimmable driver (HLG-240-54B 54v 4.45 amps) $118.31
http://wattsupply.com/s.nl/it.A/id.3056/.f

#6-32 3/8 Length Nylon Screws (100pc) x 4: 4.64ea
http://www.smallparts.com/nylon-mach...qid=1291591373
or More expensive but in Canada:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...l&name=H556-ND

#6-32 Tap x 1: 11.25ea
http://www.smallparts.com/butterfiel...e_name=%236-32
*I might buy this locally and order the nylon screws through digikey

Thermal Grease 2.5g x 5: 4.83ea
http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/products/...trix-2.5g.html

22awg 600v pretinned stranded wire: $7.50 50ft
http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/products/...600-volt).html


LEDs
XP-G cool white in 10 LED series (http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/products/...ool-White.html)
XP-E royal blue in 14 LED series (http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/products/...oyal-Blue.html)


Ill probably end up buying 3 times as many fuses just in case.

wiring on between LEDs is 22awg
wiring from driver to blocks is 20awg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2361330/Aqua...D%20Wiring.jpg

mseepman 12-06-2010 04:49 PM

Wow, you did a really nice job putting that diagram together.

I was hoping to do the parallel thing but avoid the resistors and fuses as I start to feel like it's getting past me in my electrical knowledge. Hadn't thought of doing a terminal block but it's a really good idea.

Milad 12-06-2010 05:47 PM

the resistors and fuses are simple once you know why you are putting them in and undersatnd whats happening on a parallel string.

ill try to explain it.

most of the simple designs you see are one driver per 12 LEDs
These are usually powered by something like the meanwell LPC-35-700
This driver puts out up to 48V and .700amps

the LEDs are rated to have about 3.5 volts each and .700 amps per series.

12LEDS * 3.5ea = 42V. The driver above will adjust itself down to 42v

so the above driver can only handle one series (.700amps) and 12 LEDs (48v).

Now lets say you got a big bad driver that does 2.1amps and 48V

So now you can only still have series of 12 LEDs (48v). But since you have 2.1amps you need to balance that out between 3 series of 12 LEDs which gives you .700 amps per series.

The reason you start needing resistors and fuses is to be "safe"

So, if for watever reason one of those 3 series decides to stop, and other two keep running, you are dividing 2.1amps between 2 series instead of 1! Thats 1.050amps per series. If the LEDs cant handle it, boom goes the LEDs. This is why you put a 1amp fuse in before each series. As soon as one series goes, the 1amp fuse blows and your LEDs are safe.

So what is the resistor for?
Well for you to measure the amperage on each series you need to un-solder and put a multimeter inline with the leds. Well of course this sucks. If you put a 1ohm resistor at the beginning of each LED series then you just measure across the resistor while its inline and it will tell you the amperage.

From my understanding the amperage can vary per series so you want to switch LEDs out and get them as close as you can to each other. Over time it can change also, so having the resistors in there for quick tests works great.

mseepman 12-06-2010 06:14 PM

Thanks for the quick explanation. I will end up putting in both the resistors and the fuses now that I know where to get them and why. You should make sure you take some detailed pictures of your wiring to the terminal blocks, how the jumpers are setup and your wiring of the fuses...(so that I can copy of course:lol:)

Any luck with the info from ETG on Neutrals and Blues?

StirCrazy 12-07-2010 10:53 PM

why did you decide to run them at 0.7amp instead of 1 amp? just curious.

Steve

Milad 12-07-2010 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StirCrazy (Post 571299)
why did you decide to run them at 0.7amp instead of 1 amp? just curious.

Steve

running the LEDs lower than max Amp (so 70%) makes them last longer..

mseepman 12-08-2010 12:01 AM

Although I agree wtih you about the lower ma rating generating less heat and therefore extending the life of the LED, I am hoping to find a way to push the XP-G's up to 1000ma as their max is 1500 and 1000 should still leave a very long life.

I know you have found all the other items you need...but have you ordered them already?

Milad 12-08-2010 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mseepman (Post 571342)
Although I agree wtih you about the lower ma rating generating less heat and therefore extending the life of the LED, I am hoping to find a way to push the XP-G's up to 1000ma as their max is 1500 and 1000 should still leave a very long life.

I know you have found all the other items you need...but have you ordered them already?

thanks for pointing that out! I knew i saw 1500 somewhere. XP-G cool white are 1500
XP-E royal blue are 1000.

I might switch up my design to handle 1000 for the cool white.

StirCrazy 12-08-2010 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milad (Post 571318)
running the LEDs lower than max Amp (so 70%) makes them last longer..

not realy unless you exceed there max spec. the max operational is 1000mA but that will not burn them out. the problem comes in with heat. so if you up the current and don't provide an efficien way to remove the extra heat then yes the life will be shortened. If you deal with the heat then no effect.

I would personaly go with 1000mA for both as you are also using fuses and resistors to safe guard and dimable ballasts so the chances of you ever comming close to a situation where you would pump enough current/voltage to dammage the LEDs are going to be very very slim to none.

most people just run 1000mA dimable meanwells and nothing else and are not having problems. but I do like the idea of the fuses. not sure I like the parallel idea but I guess with the resistors you put to rest any concerns I have there.

Steve

mseepman 12-08-2010 03:23 PM

The problem with a large build and not running parallel is that you would need a massive amount of the ELN-60-48 meanwells and they are not power factor corrected. As such, the In-rush current when/if you turned them all on at once has been considered dangerous for overheating the wiring at the receptacle.

mseepman 12-08-2010 11:48 PM

Did you ever get a price and/or an expected delivery date on those HLG drivers? In looking on the cdiweb site, they all say "out of stock" and "call for pricing".

Milad 12-09-2010 02:09 AM

Power Supply:
well im not going with CDI because they wont ship anything but UPS and the guy seemed grumpy and he said 14weeks on everything

soo... i called meanwell, tried to find a distributer in Canada. I found one on the east coast which I emailed for prices. I also found one in cali that will ship via USPS if i ask nicely but they are about 30% more than CDI but cheaper than anyone else i found
http://wattsupply.com/s.nl/it.A/id.3056/.f

the girl was really nice and she said she would help me out if i need it USPS and could get it to for me in a couple days because her warehouse had a couple.
(i seem to have better luck with the girls than the guys)

so $114ish vs $85ish but no waiting 3 weeks.

Heatsinks:
ive also started hunting down heatsinks. for me to get the heatsinkusa heatsinks its something like $70 for shipping of all the heatsinks. They will do USPS for me though. Anyone know anywhere in Canada to pickup heatsinks?

Soldering Iron
I seem to be having a hard time finding a decent prized 40w-60w soldering station. Anyone have a lead on these? Seem to be expensive in Canada, lol. And I cant get amazon to ship them to Canada.


btw most of the other parts on my list are from digikey and they have warehouse in canada.

Milad 12-09-2010 02:31 AM

fyi parts list and wiring diagram updated
http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/sho...4&postcount=12

switching to 1.5fuses and bigger driver
added parts for grease, nylon screws, tap

mseepman 12-09-2010 03:30 PM

Have you tried these guys for the soldering station?

http://www.mainelectronics.com/solderstn.htm

I think they carry many of the ones that Amazon does.

Hope that helps.

gucci17 12-10-2010 01:37 AM

Taggin' along! :mrgreen:

Milad 12-10-2010 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mseepman (Post 571871)
Have you tried these guys for the soldering station?

http://www.mainelectronics.com/solderstn.htm

I think they carry many of the ones that Amazon does.

Hope that helps.

thanks for the link, im probably just going to go with the 29.95 one that is 50w
i would like the 180 one but i think ill start small! lol i mean, all i need to do is solder a few leds... a few as in 144... cant be that hard or time consuming.

monocus 12-10-2010 02:48 AM

led
 
if you need wire ,i found a large roll at work of alarm wire-i'll be using that for my build

mseepman 12-10-2010 04:41 AM

One option you might want to look at is going to princess auto, picking up one of their soldering irons (with temp control) and picking up their wireholder with soldering iron holder and magnifying glass. Here are some links:

http://www.princessauto.com/workshop...gnifying-glass

http://www.princessauto.com/workshop...stable-control

Almost like building your own soldering station.

roblarss 12-10-2010 05:08 AM

I ordered both my drivers through future electronics as well as my LEDs. They may be a bit more than the states but shipping was relativly inexpensive and the service was great

http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/...:True,Nea:True

Milad 12-10-2010 05:33 AM

mseepman,
nice find on the soldering but im going to stick with the first one you found. dont really need the holder and glasses considering ill be soldering when all the stars are bolted to the heatsinks.


roblarss,
its a tough call. whats frustrating me is that cdiweb.com has them for half the price futureelectronics sells them for and $40 cheaper than wattsupply.com BUT cdiweb.com doesnt keep them in stock and the guy was rude. so i could take my chances with wattsupply out of the US and hope I dont get dinged at the border or use futureelectronics.... decisions decisions.

thats something like 20 LEDs i could buy if CDIweb had them.



did i just start using LEDs as monetary unit? WTF

Milad 12-13-2010 11:37 PM

so, it looks like im not going with the big aluminium heatsink design for two reasons
1. it gets heavy fast and is hard to hang
2. shipping gets expensive really fast ($150 for one 10x20 heatsink!!! to my house)

so, instead, ive following some advice of the larger builds and i think im going with aluminium u channel with small CPU heatsinks + fans attached (around 12). Once i narrow down how im going to do this, ill post some more models.

roblarss 12-14-2010 11:02 AM

I ended up making my own heatsink also as the shipping costs were crazy. I used a 1/4" aluminum plate and the fins are 1/8" aluminum angle. I just used some heatsink compound between the 2 pieces and riveted the angle to the plate. Made it nice as all the leds are on the plate and can go exactly where I want them. I then have 2 12v computer fans on top of each module. Havent had any problems yet.
With channel you can probably just mount the stars to the bottom face and then connect all the channel together on the ends. You just need to make sure you have plenty of heat dissipation for the heat. Mine starts to warm up slightly when I turn the fans off. Going to put a high temperature cutout on it soon..

monocus 12-14-2010 01:56 PM

heatsink
 
to hang your heatsink-go to grandview rona in the specialty bolt section,and get bolts with a hole drilled at the end of the thread(or there are other bolts that you can use)drill a hole in your heatsink to fit your threaded shaft,and drill a larger hole over it to fit the head of the bolt.if you need to you can come over and use my drill press

KevinK 12-14-2010 04:17 PM

any link's ore pictures of DIY heat sink

at this time I stil have 4 left (6x10), however would need more, and are wondering what would be best, as now my unit is nice 6x 24 with 28 LED and first had in mind to make all units like this

maybe one big one

other alternative is to use 1 ore 1.5 inch square aluminium pipe, mont them on there and blow air in the pipe, you can even derect this air out of the room!

Bblinks 12-28-2010 10:33 PM

TAGGING ALONG. :biggrin:

mseepman 01-10-2011 12:30 AM

This is funny...today I saw a thread on RC asking about this build and why it had been deleted off of RC. I had heard that you had been banned Milad but what I didn`t realize was that by posting on that thread where they were asking about you, I would get penalized myself.

Talk about Tyranny. So glad Canreef is not like that.

DiverDude 01-10-2011 02:45 AM

Soldering Irons
 
As someone who's owned an online electronics company that sold soldering irons and who's done a LOT of soldering, I'd say if you can afford $100, buy this: http://www.hvwtech.com/products_view.asp?ProductID=209

I have 2 of them.

If that's too rich for you, get this:

http://www.hvwtech.com/products_view.asp?ProductID=207

I have one of these too (in the toolbox).

The station has adjustable temperature (which you'll never adjust) and a nice stand to hold th iron. It's heats up in seconds and is excellent quality and a very good price. The second one is also very good -just without the adjustability and stand.

Those links are to a Calgary company. Good people, reasonable shipping. It's worth noting that they also sell a whole range of microcontrollers and their development tools, like the Arduino -if you're inclined to go that route.

Milad 01-10-2011 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mseepman (Post 580543)
This is funny...today I saw a thread on RC asking about this build and why it had been deleted off of RC. I had heard that you had been banned Milad but what I didn`t realize was that by posting on that thread where they were asking about you, I would get penalized myself.

Talk about Tyranny. So glad Canreef is not like that.

thats hilarious. I just saw that on there. Water under the bridge for me but they seem to still hate me.

dividerdude, those stations look nice. might have to add that to my list.

DiverDude 01-11-2011 12:42 AM

Yeah, they are the 'proper' tool for the job. Maybe a bit much to justify the station for a single project but you really do get what you pay for and the $20 - $30 'no-name' irons you'll get at the corner electronics place really aren't worth the $.


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