Cyanide Fish in Stores.......
 

Im a little ticked about the ignorant, uninformed comments that float around this board...

one that recently comes to mind was along the lines of " I saw cyanide caught fish in the stores tanks"....

May I ask why you make such a statement? Did you perform a cyanide labratory test with a $3000 photo meter? Did you perform an autopsy and discover organ degeneration and tissue collapse, and then determine it was a result of cyanide and not disease????

If you know a way to look into a tank and accurately verify that a fish was caught using cyanide by way of visual inspection, please let all the industry leaders know so they can stop wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars on fancy tests and man power trying to curb this now small industry problem.... if you cant, please keep poor accusations to yourself

sorry for my rant but Im sick of the "voice your opinion, even when you know nothing about it" attitdue.....

"Props to Kyle and the crew at Coast Mt for running a tight operation!"

Thanks Kyle for your comments. Before this goes anywhere, any finger pointing or accusations made against any party without proof (cyanide test will do) will result in immediate deletion.

Re: Cyanide Fish in Stores.......
 

I have never walked into a lfs and noticed cyanide caught fish, mostly because I understand that fish don't necessarily display symptoms of cyanide poisoning over the short term. Plus, I haven't a clue what to look for :confused:

Now, over the longer term, say a month or so after a fish goes into my tank, what are the symptoms to look for so I don't waste my time, money and emotional energy trying to save a fish that is ultimately doomed?

i thought that fish caught useing cyanide had white sticky feces that stuck to there body,a sign that the damage that was done to its intestins ,i could be wrong but without performing the lab tests this was a good sign that the fish in question was caught with cyanide ?.

No, many internal paraistes will cause these symptoms. Cyanide victims are seldom recognizable by any standard visual queue.

thanks for the correction the book i read didnt mention other causes that would produce the sticky feces.

If a fish was cyanide caught, as Kyle mentioned above, there would be "organ degeneration and tissue collapse". If this is the case, there would have to be some kind of outward sign(s) of the degeneration, wouldn't there? Or would the fish appear in relatively good health one day, then just drop dead the next?

Sorry for the rephrased question. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to better understand the situation.

Beverly, your question is valid and in no way argumentative. My understanding of CN poisoning is that the symptoms depend on the degree of exposure, Heavy exposure could result in almost immediate death, whereas light exposure could result in only a shortened lifespan. The latter would never be recognized as a problem. In between, there are varying degrees of symptoms.
Perhaps someone can elaborate on this for you (and me!).

I have recived fish before that I tested for cyanide with positive test results, the fish in question(small adult blueface,majestic angels) appeared healthy and vibrantly coloured, they ate eagerly a few hours after acclimation, after a couple weeks they started loosing colours and generally looking like crap, finns rotting, scales flaking off, very odd behaviour, death ensued shortly, upon inspection the meat of the fish was mushy and gellied, when touching various organs they would mush as though they were made of jelly,(the tissue was like jelly only minutes after death) tests confirmed cyanide and info on my find was passed on to a very major importer who quickly ceased dealings with the responsible collector... You cant visually diagnose cyanide poisining, so please dont make claims to have special powers in the future. All fish are worth thrying to save, dont give up, if you are desperate about a fish in poor health I can reccommend a good force feeding diet that has worked great for me, some on this list think of it as barbaric but if it saves your fish and no one is hurt, I dont see an issue....

That thread did freak me out a bit, but I'd like to see it archived - just in case I ever have to try it...

:eek: :biggrin:

Kyle,

Where did you have your CN test done?

A buddy of mine had a YSI photo meter test station and had some cyanide regents that we used, he has since moved away and I am hoping to purchase a similar unit soon as my current colormeter isnt able to perform the tests I would like to... Once I have my unit I will perform tests for a small fee to cover regent costs...

I thought I read that a mass spec was required for that test...

it used a 5 regent test of Pyridine-Barbituric Acid, measuring 0-0.5PPM Cyanide

Kyle, how is this performed on tissue? Is it extracted first? Or?

its a freshwater test that you can run by placing the said fish in a dish of RO water to let any contaminates enter the freshwater column for testing.... I believe thats the way the test was done, it was a few years back that we did it...

I found the 5 reagent method and it uses a spectrophotometer


"quoted in Aubrey Knowles' "Colorimetric Analysis of Metal Finishing & Metal Working Solutions & Effluents" (1999) with sensitivity given in the range of 5-60 and 1-20 ppb, respectively, though I suspect that for the lower end of the range you'll need to use a cell with a long light pathlength (e.g. 10 cm)- check to see if your HACH can accomodate such cells. Essentially, both methods involve oxidation of HCN to cyanogen chloride which is then reacted with methylphenylpyrazolone, bispyrazolone and pyridine in the first case, barbituric acid and pyridine in the second case. Both complexes absorb in the visible (580 and 620 nm resp.) so any working spectrophotometer should do for the higher part of the specified concentration ranges.

Note though that if part of the cyanide is present as metal complexes (which is likely) then a decomposition-distillation-absorption procedure becomes necessary for the separation of cyanide, and it is very tedious. "

I guess the later is why it costs about 3K for a test :rolleyes:

Steve

found another way of testing from a web page, this is a cheeper way but still probably fairly expensive.

"You weigh the fish. You throw the
fish in a blendor (or bass-o-matic.) Then you add concentrated sodium
hydroxide, and reflux (boil with a condensor) the mixture for several
hours. Then, you measure the cyanide concentration with an ion-
selective electrode, and back-calculate the tissue concentration in
the fish."

Steve

that sounds like fun steve, my friend did the test at the time and knew how to use the photometer as he used to run fish farms, I just know what I have stated about the test, the details are a little blurry with me it was a long time ago, what I do know is that he was able to get a positive reading for cyanide

Kyle,

What was your fish farm friend using a test for cyanide for? I've never seen one used here in B.C., just curious.

he was also a dedicated reefer who had started importing some of his own fish through wholesalers and was fed up with dying fish so he got some regents when he realized his photometer could do cyanide tests...
that was about 10 years ago, he tested my fish about 4 years ago

Here is a description of the method used with the ISE test. This is from a post on RDO by Dr. Peter Rubec who conducted this particular type of testing in the Philippines while with the IMA.

"Briefly, the tissue is mascerated in a blender with sodium hydroxide. The slurry is added to a distillaton flask and magnesium chloride and another chemical is added (two chemicals one to deal with inteference by nitrates and the other to act as a catalyst). Then the flask is heated to near boiling and hydrogen cyanide (HCN) gas is released.The HCN passes through a reflux condenser at a measured rate (about 1 ml per second). Then the gas is recaptured in an absorber tube containing concentrated sodium hydroxide solution at pH 12-13. Then, lead carbonate is added to precipitate sulfides (that can interfer with cyanide readings with the ISE electrode). The cyanide ion selective electrode is used with a known volume of sodium hydroxide to measure the cyanide ion concentration while linked to an ISE meter. Corrections are made to determine the concentration of cyanide ion based on the original weight of the tissue sample in order to determine the concentration in milligrams per killigram (ppm). The concentration in ppm determined with the ISE meter is done against a four point calibration with known cyanide ion concentrations. Calibrations are done daily. The apparatus can not be used in the field (but can be done regionally at field laboratories). A fume hood and space is needed for the apparatus. Tests should be done by chemists. Short of having a mobile trailer with the equipment, this is not a field test.

Peter Rubec"

Here is another post by Dr. Rubec which briefly explains the length of time cyanide will remain in a fish prior to it being expelled.

"Question-Please explain how long cyanide ion can be expected to remain in the fish being tested.
Answer-A common belief (misconception) is that cyanide ion is rapidly excreted and hence not detectable a short time after the fish were collected...Cyanide uptake and clearance studies have been conducted on freshwater fish, but not on marine fish. Cyanide ion is transformed to thiocyanate ion (mainly in the liver) by an enzyme called rhodanese. This process is slower than one might predict based on enzyme kinetics, since the conversion process is limited by the availability of sulfur in the fish.
Another factor which may influence this, and allow cyanide and/or thiocyanate to be retained in marine fish longer than with freshwater fish is the difference in osmoregulatory physiology. Marine fish excrete urine at a much lower rate than freshwater fish in order to retain fresh fluids in their blood. Hence, they can be expected to excrete cyanide at a much slower rate than freshwater fish.

A proposal to look at cyanide enzyme kinetics (uptake and release) was submitted (twice) to the Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council (PIJAC) by myself on behalf of IMA and the New England Aquarium in 1989 and 1990. PIJAC chose not to fund the proposed research. The IMA recently received a grant to look into these questions.

The quick answer to your question is that the IMA routinely was able to detect cyanide ion in marine fish tested by the 6 CDT laboratories in the Philippines at least 2 to 3 weeks after the fish were collected. "

It's my understanding that this is the most reliable method for CN detection and there are no reliable testing methods on this side of the water. There are studies ongoing in an attempt to establish a North American based testing method for cyanide detection. Not to be critical Kyle, but if the testing was just as easy as you have said, wouldn't there be testing being currently done for cyanide detection in fish? Or is there a conspiracy?

Cheers,

Kyle
CMA

Hey Kyle,

I just re-read some of this thread. You mention that the reagent used to test for CN was in the range of 0-0.5 ppm. What level did the results show?

Can you point me to the force feeding thread? Did a site search and came up with 464 threads, none of which looked remotely connected to force feeding :confused: Thanks :smile:

Beverly, try this thread.

http://www.canreef.com/phpBB2/viewto...hlight=syringe

Because of the freshwater only type of regent cyanide test that we had available to us, we let presumably contaminated fish flesh sit in a RO freshwater bath in a sealed container, I believe there was some blending of fish flesh as well, (I think my papers got put in the garbage when I moved from where I lived at the time of said test) when we tested the sample we produced a reading that confirmed trace cyanide(I dont remember the concentration)( also our test method was very primitave and unreliable but it did register a reading which led us to believe there must be cyanide present because when testing a regular RO water sample we produced no readings, I would call our method very inaccurate as to the concentration, but accurate to determine the presence of cyanide in our case) because I had 6 of these small adult angels shipped I had extras in the freezer to send back to the wholesaler who had them tested in a proper lab and confirmed our findings with a much more extensive test(all I know is that they said it cost them a few hundred dollars to get the tests done), they were mad and knew exactly what collector they came from(thats what they told me) they informed me that they would immediatly cease dealings with said collector and would inform others in the industry, I never had a problem after that...

I will agree i was appart of the "Bad practice" thread. I am sorry if i had offended anyone about what i said. I have 2 perfectly healthy Coast Mountain Clownfish , and a Coast mOuntain Banggai in my tank thriving. The clowns are a pair not mated yet. There is a Banggai from Coast mountain at a buddies tank thriving as well. I had seen fish in ill health in the store and had asked an employee what was wrong with it. This person told me it was cyanide so i assumed this was the problem. Once again i am sorry if i had offended any one.

Thanks, Brad. Sounds like a sedative is necessary for the proceedures outlined by Kyle. For the fish, I mean :eek: :mrgreen:

for the force feeding you dont need a sedative, just for surgery.... and you can give them a good scrubbing with out a sedative as well, only when need be of course....