Ca/Alk/Mag Mess . . . How to fix?
 

So, I've gotten myself into a terrible mess with Ca/Alk/Mag.

I started dosing Reef Builder a while ago to bring up my Alk. I had brought my Mag up to high levels in an attempt to battle an algae, but that killed four Mexican Turbo snails so I let the mag fall naturally. My calcium had always tested high: around 520 or so.

As it turns out, my calcium test was completely out to lunch. My new test (which has been verified against a known sample) is telling a very different story.

As it stands right now:
Alk: 8
Ca: 300
Mag: 1250

I bring up my ca, and my Alk drops. I bring up my Alk, and my ca drops. I did just dose magnesium. I have no idea what will happen as a result of that.

How, exactly, do I fix this? I have calcium, magnesium, and reef builder. Should I even bother trying to fix this with three separate products, or is there something else I should be using?

Edit: I have read Myka's guide . . . I'm just feeling like I need some specific direction.

I tried to raise my Mg recently to eradicate algae and it threw everything out of balance

I ended up mixing, testing and dosing NSW to appropriate levels, and then did WCs to fix the DT

Maybe lots of reefers are able to manipulate their tank params with spot dosing, but I'll never try to put one of the big 3 out of balance ever again :mrgreen:

BTW, it probably didn't help me when my salt was mixing over 500 Ca :wink:

As a side note, if it were me with your readings;
I'd dose Ca @ half the recommended for a couple days, and monitor what happens, until I liked what I see

Your Alk is good, and your Mg is close enough ( you know this )
Just try a gentle attempt to balance the Ca some, but, re-test everything after 12-24 hours before you add another dose

What does your NSW test @ after 24 hours of mixing ???

Hmm. What ca test are you using? I thought my salt was mixing up crazy high with the API test. It wasn't.

I'm not sure at what point it all went down the toilet.

I agree . . . Messing with one param is a very bad idea! Too bad I had to learn this the hard way. :cry:

I've been pretty lax on waterchanges over the last two months, so I don't want to change a huge amount out all at once. I did do five gallons on Thursday.

I haven't tested this new bag of salt, yet.

I would do a 50% water change, then adjust Ca up a little, alk will probably be fine, Mg can be adjusted later if needed.

Ugh. That was not the response I wanted. How about five gallons a day? 55 gallon system.

I'm worried about shocking the livestock.

If I were to take a guess, the reason why your dKh is dropping when you add Ca is because your inhabitants are finally getting the Ca they need to consume the carbonates. With Ca that low, I pretty much guarantee it is not precipitating out with the dKh, so that suggests your dKh is being consumed along with the Ca as soon as you are adding the Ca. I would increase your Ca and dKh dose until you see your Ca increasing and your dKh steady. Dose one when you wake up, the other when you go to bed. You may be surprised how much of these your tank goes through when it has good levels. I started dosing at 20ml dKh and had it up to 200ml/day before I could get it to stay level above 8.
Dan

I think you need to balance shocking the livestock with a 50% water change against the stress a 300ppm Ca level is putting on them. I have had my tank almost that low at times and lost corals because of it. +1 on Aquatro's comments... get the Ca up quick.

I use Elos for Alk, Ca and Mg
My kits were close to used up, so I bought new ones and got the same readings
Although the new kits have the same expiry dates as the old ones, the new bucket is better - go figure

My IO salt was giving me such wild mixes that I started a post
It has since calmed down with a new bucket ...
Right now I get NSW;
Alk 11
Ca 460
Mg 1400

The last bucket, even though it was rolled for miles, gave me;
Alk 11
Ca 5-520
Mg 11-1250

I even did 2 to 3 tests and got the same wild readings ... :noidea: what was happening

I agree with Brad, which is where I was going ...
Test your NSW and do some WCs accordingly, but I'd do the WCs after you know what your new salt is testing to and bump anything that's low, then wait a day before using

And after posting, I see some good advice from Dan too :wink:

Best if you up one @ a time so you can monitor it alone and it's affects ...

How? Clean water? :)

Typical water isn't going to have levels much higher than you have now, and you can then fine tune.

Before you do anything, is coral OK? i recently nuked my tank because my alk test said 6dkh and calcium said 420. Be VERY careful with your tests, i took an API and a salifert beside each other with one saying 6-7dkh, the other 17dkh.

Basically what i'm saying is before you do ANY corrective actions, first make sure you actually need the correction, and if you do, get a second opinion. I lost $1500 worth of SPS because i cheaped out on a test kit then trusted it, don't do the same :P.

It is a new bag of salt. That makes me a bit nervous, as it could be quite different from the previous bucket.

My LPS look wonderful. My SPS aren't perfect, but okay. A couple are a little browned, but growing. I can't tell by looking at anything that the calcium is so out.

It is the API test kit that is being used for Alk. I have the Seachem test for Alk, but I haven't used it yet. I will test side-by-side tomorrow, before I do anything.

Honestly, it's just salt. As long as it's the same brand as what you've been using, you're good. Mix it up for an hour, if it mixes clear, that's my sign that salt is good.
If you're still concerned, do a quick alk test. You don't need to knead the bag, or flip it, or mix for 24 hours. Mix it in RO, let it go clear and hit a close temp to what you need, and change water. It's just a water change.

If you did 5 gallon changes separately you'd be getting diminished returns over just doing 50%.

Although I agree with most of everything said, I find that my salt does not mix to the proper Sg in an hour or so
I find it takes overnight for the Sg to stabilize, but that could be just me

It's also been pointed out to me that my testing of Ca over 500 from a bucket is not right, and I agree it was way too hi, which is why I started the thread I did

I tried my best to prove it wrong, but it came out that hi after multiple tests

I would like to think that the bucket I was just finishing, and the Elos test kit I was using at the time, were not getting along ..

But, I still get readings of 460 or higher with a brand new bucket of IO and a brand new Elos kit

Doing a 50% WC will not harm anything, as long as the new water is good :mrgreen:

Ya, gonna have to go with "it's just you". I mix mine up an hour ahead of time and it's fine. Once the salt is dissolved to the point that the water is clear, it isn't going to get more dissolved. I do have a large pump mixing it, but I do 50g at a time. In emergencies, I've mixed 5g buckets of new water in 10 minutes. While there's nothing at all wrong waiting 24 hours, it just isn't necessary.

Probably has something to do with a maxijet 600 in a 20g
I'd love to get NSW ready in an hour or 2, but I've found refractometer readings change as the day/night goes on, so I just wait 'till the next day

Back to Shelley's original question, shall we ???

sounds like a typical mixed reef to me, lps doing fine and sps could be doing better:P

i

I'm enjoying the banter. Don't stop on my account. ;)

Seachem Reef Status Carbonate test shows that total alkalinity is 3.2 meq/L (9 dKh).

This test confuses me. I assume that total alkalinity is what the API test tests for. But, there is a second part to this Seachem test: which tests for borate alkalinity. Subtract the borate alkalinity from the total alkalinity to get the carbonate alkalinity.

But, since the API test is so simple a trained monkey could do it, I assume it is total Alk.

I have rheumatoid arthritis. Even working with 5 gallons of water is painful. I'll take the diminished returns over agony. ;)

That sums it up nicely.

The only thing I think when I look at the system is that nutrients are a bit too high, and lighting is a touch to low. Those are the two things that look "off" based on how things are doing.

what do you classify as high nutrients, i think many coral growers will tell you some nutrients are good.


its the sudden changes that messes with your tank, i could bomb all the food i want into my tank if i train my tank to do so over time,if i do it over night its going to have a negative affect.

you have to know when a problem arises whether or not its right to act immediately or play it with patience....this is something you just learn after a while....i think your scenario now is the patience one.


i would do as mentioned and start with a heavy water change to balance things out a bit.

test your water over the next month without adding or doing anything, its hard to add anyting if you dont know what your using right??

after that month determne whats low , whats been changing , and what is needed.

keep a visual eye on everything and do your reg water changes.

if you really want to get this right your gonna have to write it down and write there affects down.

since your not in any kind of red zone you can afford to experiment slowly with a few things.

keep attacking phosphates and nitrates in a mixed reef are tolerable:)

Are you going to try a different brand of kit ???

I'm bantering with Brad through PMs about my hi Ca IO salt, but I'll stick with my Elos kits

Not saying Brad has anything bad to say about IO or Elos, just that he thinks my salt should never be able to read that hi out of the bucket

I just re-tested some NSW 2 times, and my RO, and as far as I can tell, I am still getting 460 out of my IO NSW, but zero out of my RO

Every batch of every box of my RBS is exactly the same. Good salt to try :) Sure, it costs a bit more, but isn't worth the peace of mind? :razz:

Wow, $85 for RBS vs $35-40 for IO
I think I'll stick with my buckets that are giving me grief :mrgreen:

All the film algae that I have to clear away on a daily basis and that fact at I have a crazy abundance of feather dusters (which even grow on my glass and silicone) lead me to believe that the nutrients are high. Nitrate is almost always zero, and phosphates test low.

For what? I just used Seachem for Alk instead of API. I don't have another calcium test on hand, but the one I now have (Seachem) tests a known sample accurately.

What's RBS salt?

I'm hoping to change to a brand that will cause me less grief. Since the beginning I've had issues with Alk. And, when I finally get them corrected, calcium goes to poo.

Wait a minute. Your calcium is testing that high and you're not using Reef Crystals? Just the regular IO? Holy smokes. I find that very surprising.

Reefers Best. it will give you less grief, but will take more of your money. It's probably the most expensive salt I've seen. J&L sells for about 85 I think. Which is a good price..I pay more than that on the Island..

That's what I said!!!!!

I think his test is faulty. I think that stuff is supposed to mix up around 380.

Or, he's getting buckets of regular IO that are actually filled with Reef Crystals.

I will vouch for Greg on the high calcium in the IO salt as I have the same problem too. My calcium was measuring over 500 from the IO salt and I was also getting really high alk as well around 17 at Christmas time.
Leanne

:lol: Well, if it happened to two of you . . . I'll cut Greg some slack. ;)

Ok, maybe Greg isn't crazy, but something is still wrong. IO should not read that high in Ca..

I'm pretty sure that IO must have terrible quality control on their salt. Coralgirl and I have both had alkalinity issues with the Reef Crystals: virtually impossible to maintain Alk above 6 without dosing. This was even the case in my NC12, where I was changing 50% of the water per week (and had no Alk suckers in it).

im going to do a water tets today not because i need to but because im going to show you guys that less is more.

all ive done in forever is a water change , i only did that because i transfered tanks , i bet my parameters are bang on.

because i dont mess with it, i dont add to change it.


i have over 300 pieces of coral , safe to say if anyones using up stuff it would be me , i honestly dont understand what the big deal is?


ill tell you this though ,trying to compare one persons tanks alkalinity to anothers tank alkalinity is pointless....different salts, water sources, different temps , plus the ability to buffer differently........it will never happen.


what you do to keep your alk up is probably different then what someone else will have to do.


unless your running a sps dominant tank and going for growth of the year award....id forget it...crack a beer and go away for month


that last part is important and the steps may need to be repeated untill the tank is how you like it lol :p

To some extent I will agree with Denny.

I was using sachem salinity salt for over a year and could never get my alk above 6. This affected my ability to keep sps, they never did well for me. Ive switched to reef crystals and have only done 1 test for mag, still at 1250, haven't tested for anything else as my corals look like they are doing better regardless.

When I first set up my 55, I tested all the parameters all the time. After 6 months I stopped as things were fine, corals growing, fish happy, tank is now 1 1/2 years old. The 180, tons of coral loss, lps, sps, but then others were doing great. Tank is only 6 months old, so I stopped messing with it and stopped adding corals. I can't keep up Witt the experienced reefers and have a full tank in months, that is my biggest challenge. Tank envy :lol:

I've switched to reef crystals and halfway through the bucket, things look better but not testing.

The argument over water changes, to do or not, there's points to both sides. I've increased the 180 weekly, the 55 has always been every 2 weeks. Not a strict schedule as summer kinda says there's funner stuff to do.

Shelley I'd say leave the tank alone, do what you can for water changes, but if the corals are happy, growing and good color, then whatever is in the tank is working.