LED lights
 

Anyone here have the new LED lights on their tanks??

I have been reading about these lights, the so called replacement oneday for MH. Just curious if anyone has them and what your opinion is using them on a reef tank.

I have some on my Pico and they are great. I have a few last parts in the mail right now and then I am starting in on building a 48" LED fixture for my 75 gallon. LEDs give you control over your lighting spectrum, excellent PAR and possibly even better penetration than MH with less energy consumption and less heat to deal with.

I have a pico as well, may i ask how many gal is your pico??

which fixture do you have??

is it the 18"??

What corals do you keep in this pico??

Do you have a picture of your tank?

I have rics, zoas gsp and anthelia and I currently have the 9" coralife 18 watt pc on this tank. I was looking at getting a new fixture the 12" coralife 36 watt pc but then these lights have been recommended by some and other say they are not strong enough for saltwater tanks with corals.

im thinking about ordering one of these with my tax refund money

http://www.fish-street.com/maxspect_...ategory_id=126

thats a pretty cool led set up. what one you gonna get?

g1 180W :mrgreen: its like a 250W mh.. i think the clams will be happy

me and a buddy are diggin into a diy led set up right now. and we figured over the lifetime of the lights it will payfor itself 10-15 times over, compared to MH setups.

oh right on. what sort of parts are you using?

he found the thread on an RC i cant remember what it all is i already closed the page, oops. but we are both pretty good with electronics and such and we are gonna go for the most light for the least amount of cash for the first try and then upgrade as we need it

I setup an array of about 60 luxeon rebel LEDs with no lenses on half of my 120gal. When I get that straightened out then I will build another for the other side. Currently have t5 bulbs on that side.
Does anyone know of a place to get larger heatsinks? I cant seem to find a dealer in canada.

My Pico is the iReef from the last nano contest; about 2 gallons for the display portion. Here is the link to the thread where you can see the DIY LED setup:

http://www.canreef.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=53597

It's really not hard to build your own and is much more cost effective then buying a fixture. For a shallow Pico with easy corals you could probably get away with some of the cheaper fixtures using 1 watt LEDs but 3 watt LEDs are preferable. Avoid any of the fixtures using less than 1 watt emitters, especially the ones with the regular 5mm LEDs. They may look bright to your eye but they have very little usable PAR for the corals.


The thing I don't like about the Maxspect lights is that they use a few single 30W white emitters rather than an array of good quality 3W emitters. The 30W ones are not very efficient in terms of output and heat and not a good choice for aquarium lighting. Personally I wouldn't buy one.

Heatsinks is a problem. The few electronics suppliers I found that could get one were very expensive. I ended up buying 3 large used ones on eBay that will do the trick for me.

Maybe we should set up a local LED DIY group:biggrin:

Ron. where did you order those LED from?

only one I found was www.heatsinkusa.com

prices are good I guess. this is the one I am ordering
http://www.heatsinkusa.com/storename...-10502850.aspx

I am mounting 48 LEDs to this run off 4 controlers, but I am also looking at putting a few UV LEDs in the mix also.

Steve

Not that this will likely help much but I know of a heatsink company in Canada but I'm nearly positive they don't deal in such low quantities (ie- 1 heatsink) and if they do it's likely a bit pricey. The name of the company was R-Theta Thermal Solutions (they were bought out about a year back iirc). Their standard size is 6 foot lengths with many different profiles available but I don't know their cost on anything.

We used to order from R-theta where I used to work but we didn't deal in single unit orders and usually ordered 50+ heatsinks at a time. Might be worth a shot still and if you can find someone who wants the same profile as you, you can likely place an order and reduce the cost. If there's any interest I can try to contact the parts acquisition guy at my old job and see if he knows of anything else since I know they weren't the only company we dealt with.

they look like there more of a semi conductor specilist type thing. and water cooled ones.. didn't see anything that wasn't way overkill and probably to much money also.

Steve

I bought them all through a group buy on nano-reef.com so we got a very good deal. nanocustoms sells some for a decent price along with drivers and optics etc. You could also try ledsupply.com as I have ordered buckpucks from them and service was good.

Look under the aluminum extrusion section. Looks like there are several potentially good ones but it is a matter of price and minimums.

I just missed that one, how much did ya end up saving per led on the group buy? Are you using the meanwell drivers Ron?

Steve

They are available at Bigals.ca here in Canada but are not recommended for reef systems. I went to the Marineland site and they recommend them for saltwater fish only or freshwater with low light plant tanks only. So guess these will be no good for my 5 gal and I will have to go with the t5's instead.

Ahh, I see which ones you are looking at. On a 5 gallon you could probably get away with them if you are only keeping softies/zoas but, and it's a big BUT, the colour spectrum will be lousy because it's all white LEDs (except for the low output moonlight ones which won't do much to help). So it won't look nice and will make you prone to nuisance algae etc.

The group buy was a while ago; last May or June I think. IRRC we saved a bit over a dollar per LED, $.25 per optic, and I think over $10 on each driver. So with 80+ LED's 80+ optics and 6 Meanwells I saved a decent amount of money. The only problem with the group buy was that the organizer ended up overwhelmed by the huge participation (I'm not sure how many drivers were ordered but the group ordered well over 1000 LEDs) and it took a long time for the stuff to get shipped out. But it was worth the wait as the price was great.

just a tidbit. they are not a "so called replacment" for mh, t5, ect.. they are a very viable alternative to them which can produce the same lighting levels if done right.

the reason you don't see a lot of premade LED lights is that one company holds a patent for the way there done which is preventing any other company from makeing a lighting system with a controler. which is why solaris went out of business. the only way areound this is by selling DIY kits or you can just buy all the parts your self and build one.

so if you want to get the output of a 250 watt HQI set up it can be done easy, you just need a good heat sink, good drivers, a wack of leds, and optics, and the skill to put it togeather. its not cheep to start off with but in the long run it works out to be very cheep.

for me to do a tank with a 12X30 opening I am looking at 400 to 600 bucks (closer to 600 porobably) but when you think about it I will have higher PAR levels than a 250watt HQI, no heat transfered to the water and no bulb cvhanged for 15 years?

if I were to do a 250 watt HQI on that tank it would cost me 300 to get started then 100/year for bulbs so there is 1000-1500 (10 to 15 years)
plus I would need a chiller so another 700.00 for a total of 200 to 2500.

but with the leds I am also getting infanate color as they are dimable and I can dim the white and the royal blue seperatly so I can pick the color I like, and if in a few days I decide I want it more white I can. Also the drivers I am looking at use a 0-10v signal for the dimming so if I wanted to put togeather a PLC, I could have simulated sunrise/sets with the colors shifting also. because I am using 4 drivers, I will b abvle to change the intensity in 1/2 the tank also so if I get new corals, I can place them on one side and dim it down and gradualy bring the light levels up over a week or so to get them used to the lighing levels I want.

the only problem is (and it maynot be a problem but rather a benifit) is you have to build everything, even your housing which can open the doors for some very creative looking lighting systems.

Steve

Ron can you expand further on your comments on the Maxpect LED lighting. I am looking for lighting particularly blue lighting which will optimize the florescense of particularly LPS coral. On the basis of their article, it appears they would fit the bill. Why would the wattage of the emitters matter? Why would efficiency matter and wouldn't the heat sink be designed to take the heat?
Thanks

Most of that comes from what I have gleaned from the LED expert at nano-reef.com. The problem with the high wattage LEDs is that if you look at their lumen/watt output it is actually far less than a good 3 watt Cree XR-E for example (not to mention the new XP-G series).

These numbers are from what I remember off the top of my head so don't take them as hard fact. The typical 30 watt LEDs produce around 300 to 350 lumens vs. well over 100 lumens for a 3 watt cree XR-E. So 3 times the light output but 10 times the power consumption and higher heat production. Very poor efficiency for the 30 watt ones.

Also, they are trying to produce a good spread of light with good PAR and penetration with 4 emitters of 30 watts with no optics which will not give as good a spread and penetration as a larger number of 3 watt LEDs spread out over your tank. Now add some optics to the 3 watt LEDS and you get higher effective PAR and penetration and they will blow away the performance of the smaller number of high wattage LEDs. They are saving money and thus producing a cheaper fixture by using a smaller number of inferior LEDs. If you want MH equivalent lighting then stick to something using Luxeon or Cree emitters with good coverage and optics to increase penetration and have higher PAR at depth. Cree are the market and technology leaders in terms of output and efficiency. The Luxeons are also quite good but a bit behind Cree from my understanding.

However, there's a strong argument for not utilizing optics whenever possible with LEDs. If you can get away without optics you don't have to worry about the potential for spotlighting and you get a more uniform distribution of light and blending of different colors (if your fixture employs different colored LEDs).

Here's a post on the Reefbuilders blog:

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/27/l...ics-explained/

there few little bits of wrong info in that Andrew. first they say secondary optics are expensive costing between 25 to 50% of the LED.

a cree led is a shade over 6 bucks and the optic is 1 buck.. not realy expensive at all. as for spotting this is easily overcome with spacing. make you max spacing between LEDs 2" and between rows 3" and you can run 40 degree optics. I am spacing mine at 1.75" and 2.5" respectivly.

I don't know why anyone would want to run 8 degree optics but I am assuming that was just and example. 40degree optics will give you about 250 MH levels or bettwe, 60 degree will give you 150 watt mh or better and no optics will be like running T5's . now of course this all depends on the distance. on a shallow tank you might be able to use 60 degree optics and get the same PAR as a 250watt MH.

the down side to optics is simple.. the lower the degree the tighter the spacing of the LEDs must be to avoid spotting. so if you want to run the 40 degree optics you must use more LEDs to cover the same space. a good example is the system I am building. with no optics I can get away with 16 leds to evenly light a 30 gal tank. If I wanted to run 60 degree optics I would need 20 to 24 LEDs but I want lots of par so I am going with 40 degree optics so I need between 36 and 48 Leds (depending on how I arange them. so in a way optics are more expensive but not much and the extra expence isn't because of the price of optics but rather from the extra LED's needed.

Now having said this, I will probably hit 250 watt levels in my ank with no optics (tank is only 17" deep) but I want to be able to go even higher than 250 watt levels to test a couple theories

If you want to see some good info on LEDs I am going to recomend a left field place. RC has a couple good threads, but overall not much else. Nano_reef.com is the most info and support I have ever seen for LEDs. they have one guy there "the LED god" who designs lighting systems and is actualy very helpfull with questions about LED lighting. I usaly don't recomend boards other than Canreef as I generaly feel we have all the info some one needs unless they want to get way over the top, but this is one time I will say that the nano board is the board for LED questions and info.

Steve

My tank will likely be 18-24 inches.
It looks like to get the whiteish rather than the yellowish look these leds do it.
When the white led lights are out and the blues come on is it possible to get the overall blueish look and in addition the deep blue flashlight effect which would highlight certain flourescent corals?
What I gleaned from their website is that this might be possible because it is programmable.
Am I missing something? Am I missing lots?

I plan to restrict my new tank to florescent corals, inverts and fish. The reason is that I want to enjoy the tank when I get home after work.
I also want to 'hunt down' uber-florescent species and specimens. I want to frag the best.
Thanks

Hi Steve,

I know about nanoreef being THE site for LED info. I don't really have any particular interest in LED right now so I can't be bothered to stay abreast of the ins and outs. From what I have read there does appear to be some disagreement about optimal designs (for example whether or not it is better to over, under, or normal drive them). Given the still experimental nature of LED lighting over reef tanks I'll let the manufacturers figure things out and people such as yourself continue experimenting before I get too worked up about it. I'd love to change to LED ASAP but it looks to be at least another year before we start to see some quality, reliable, readily available, and attractive LED fixtures hit the reefing market.

the way the company that holds the patent is going I don't think we'll ever get anything nice.. well at least for 20 years when the patent runs out.

Steve

+1 to what Steve said above. That info from Coral Sky may be slightly biased as they are obviously marketing a product without optics. As Steve said the cost of the optics is small and they help with concentrating the light so you get better PAR deeper in the tank.

As for the patent, I think all it needs is to be challenged in court and invalidated. I can't see how that patent was issued as they found nothing new or revolutionary or surprising that merits patentability. There was also a bunch of prior art that the patent examiners obviously didn't see. PFO was in financial difficulty before Orbitec went after them so they obviously didn't have the finances to fight it out in court. Hopefully somebody can do that at some point.

From what I read recently the company who owns the patent (Orbitec) is filing for a continuation of their patent. This is where people are stepping in and submitting a Third-Party Submission against Orbitec to hopefully stop their monopoly. If they can prove "prior art" (basically meaning someone was using this idea before Orbitec claims they invented it) then they are hoping to overturn the patent. Big problem though is Orbitec has big pockets- iirc they got money from NASA for something. I believe money speaks a lot in the patent biz.

The patent is pretty broad too. Summed up it's basically "adjustable/dimming LED lights over an aquarium". Did they invent the LED? No. Did they invent the dimming/adjusting of the LEDs? No, PWM's have been around a long while for this purpose.. Did they invent the aquarium? Of course not! So All they claim they invented was the IDEA of putting an adjustable LED over an aquarium! Orbitec doesn't seem to be doing anything substantial with this patent either- except suing everyone who infringes it.

If optics are inexpensive why do you think a company would produce a fixture without them? They obviously have reason to believe that not having them provides some type of performance benefit. I believe the new Vertex LED fixture also lacks optics. So there are obviously some companies performing some R&D that leads them to believe LEDs without optics provides a performance, efficiency, or cost advantage. The application of LED technology is still in its infancy in this hobby. Over time I guess we'll see how things pan out. It wasn't that long ago that MH reflectors were designed with the intent of focusing the light and we got to a point where fixtures were producing fairly acute hot spots. Then reflector design transitioned to providing an even spread of light without hot spots.

My experience comes from pharmaceutical patents but in order to patent something it has to be something novel and non-obvious. Orbitec's patent is neither and never should have been allowed (however, inappropriate patents get issued all the time and subsequently invalidated). lighting aquariums with different types and sources of light has been going on for a long time so LEDs are a natural and obvious continuation of that. Changing colour spectrum has been done by using different bulbs and combinations of bulbs before so nothing new there. Timing of lighting has been done for a long time so nothing new there too. So I really believe it is a patent that shouldn't stand for those reasons alone, let alone the prior art. Orbitec invented nothing.

Money. Without optics you can use fewer LEDs spread out further. Cheaper to produce and hopefully cheaper to buy. It all depends on the performance and PAR you want. If you want high PAR deeper in your tank you need optics. If you only plan to have higher light corals near the top of the tank then no optics will most likely be good for you. But the optics make a big difference in concentrating the light to get good PAR at greater depth.

BTW, those Maxspect lights seem to produce significant hotspots below the 30W LEDs that may be a concern for some tanks and affect coral placement. The other issue that seems to come up is that the LEDs used in the Maxspect fixtures are not as durable as the Cree emitters. Maxspect is suggesting replacement of the LEDs in 18 to 24 months which will not be cheap. The Crees should last for 5+ years if they are cooled adequately.

simple, they want to make more money.. using optice relates to more LEDs, the more LEDs they have to use the more expensive to build.

As for the patent, it was filed in tow parts in 2002 and 2003, and awarded in 2007

here it is

Overview
A method and apparatus of lighting a marine habitat for growth utilizing an LED light system. The light system includes an LED light source, a power supply for such light source and a controller for controlling the activation status and the intensity of the LED light source.

Claims
What is claimed is:

1. A combination marine habitat and lighting system therefor comprising:
a marine habitat having an open top defined by a top edge and
a lighting system including: a housing connectable to said top edge to substantially cover said open top, said housing further including an inner side facing said open top when said housing is connected to said top edge and an opposite outer side;an LED light source mounted to the inner side of said housing, said LED light source comprising at least one light engine having a plurality of individual LEDs capable of providing light at a wavelength from about 380 nm to about 690 nm; a power supply sufficient to drive said LEDs; a controller connected with said power source for controlling the activation status and the intensity of one or more of said individual LEDs; and a cooling system provided in said housing.
2. The combination of claim 1 wherein said LED light source, when activated, is sufficient to support marine growth.
3. The combination of claim 1 wherein said LED light source includes at least one of chip-based, organic or discreet LEDs.
4. The combination of claim 1 wherein each of said light engines is capable of providing light intensity of from 0 to 1000 micro mols per square meter per second.
5. A lighting system for a marine habitat of the type having an open top defined by a top edge, said lighting system comprising:
a housing connectable to said top edge to substantially cover said open top, said housing further including an inner side facing said open top when said housing is connected to said top edge and an opposite outer side;
an LED light source mounted to the inner side of said housing, said LED light source comprising at least one light engine having a plurality of individual LEDs capable of providing light at a wavelength from about 380 nm to about 690 nm;
a power supply sufficient to drive said LEDs;
a controller connected with said power source for controlling the activation status and the intensity of one or more of said individual LEDs; and a cooling system provided in said housing.
6. The lighting system of claim 5 wherein said LED light source, when activated, is sufficient to support marine growth.
7. The lighting system of claim 5 wherein said LED light source includes at least one of chip-based, organic or discreet LEDs. 8. The combination of claim 5 wherein each of said light engines is capable of providing light intensity of from 0 to 1000 micro mols per square meter per second.



As you can see any system built that is desirable to us would be infringing on the copyright.

I don't think there is anything wrong with this one.. a few guys had a good idea and jumped on it. it was tried with skimmers also but was filed to late.

No I don't think this company had any desire to build lights for fish tanks, but I do think they want some one else to and pay them royalties, or lease the right to make stuff from them. this way they can get money for nothing.

they will have this pattent untill 2027 but have to make utility payments at 4 years, 8 years and 12 years. if either of these are missed then the patent is open. so the earliest anyone would be able to sell a LED system is 2011 and only if they miss there payment, other wise we have to wait till 2015 and see if they make that one.

makes me wish I would have applied for this myself in 99 when I was playing with LEDs over tanks.

one other thing to note, in my reading I discovered there is no way around this patent by selling DIY kits in there entirity, and if you build them your self you are able to be sued by the company from infringment on there patent, but seeing as the cost of dammages they would get from one individual compared to what it would cost them to sue.. they wouldn't go after an individual.

Steve

Sorry but I have to disagree. There is no invention in that patent. Aquarists have been using light sources to light reef tanks and grow corals for long before Orbitec came along. Jsut because a new type of light comes along does not mean that it is a novel invention to use that light for aquariums. Has anybody been able to patent LEDs as replacements for home light bulbs? If somebody invents a new type of light tomorrow; say a bioluminescent film of some sort should we patent that for use in aquariums? In order to patent there should be some invention. They would have to show that the LEDs surprisingly did something that other light sources don't for coral growth etc. and it does not look like they have done that. It is an inappropriately issued patent as far as I can tell and if challenged in court would likely be invalidated? Why have Orbitec not gone after Aquailluminations? They probably just smelled blood with PFO who were in financial difficulties due to poor products and returns and warranty claims etc. and are using that to try to scare others since they "defeated" PFO (pretty much financially rather then legally). That's my take on it anyhow. There is no invention in that patent as the use of LEDs for aquariums is obvious to anyone skilled in the art. It HAS to be non-obvious to be patentable.

In fact take a look at this old post at glassbox design; particularly the last part. perhaps we should get some people together and send a submission to the USPTO asking to have the patent invalidated.

http://glassbox-design.com/2009/pate...ults-recourse/

They haven't gone after AI, from what I've read, because AI has "partnered" with them and is paying Orbitec a licensing fee. However, i can't verify the veracity of that statement.

Looks like you are right. That's pathetic. This patent really needs to be invalidated. I have managed to find Orbitec's full patents (apparently there are two of them) and will have a look at them in the next day or two.

Ron you don't have to invent something to have a patent. you can have a patent for specific ways of using pre exhisting products. which is what this one is. and all it has to be is an idea not the actual product. a computer is a good example. IBM patented there arcatexture.. so no one could make accesories for the IBM with out there permission. IBM didn't invent the chips, boards, ect.. but they did invent how to use them togeather in a specific way for a specific purpose.

there is nothing wrong with there patents, or PFO would have wone the lawsuit plane and simple.

it is like the wheel barrow.. the inventer was given a 50 year patent.. remember when you were a kid there was only one type of wheel barrow.. now theres like 50. the pattent ran out about 30 years ago if I remember corectly. even though man had been using buckets with wheels, platforms with wheels ect.. for 100's of years no one ever though to patent it.. one man did and for a long period of time was the only wheelbarrow manufactuer.. now you see pattents on wheel barrows like crazy but there for parts or uneque features or concepts.

trying to say a patent is invallid because all the parts are alreayd being used of have patents would mean there owuld be no patents issued on anything. if I came up with a new type of wave maker I would not be able to get a patent as all the electronics already have a patent. Heck no electronic manufacture at all would be able to patent anything.. just think of it as different types of patents. here is the def of a utility patent

" In general, a utility patent protects the way an invention is used and works. Utility patents may be granted to anyone who invents a new and useful method, process, machine, device, manufactured item, or chemical compound - or any new and useful improvement to the same."

they invented a new and usefull machine.

Steve

I am aware of how patents work as I have been involved in several and have read many more.

In order to patent something there does have to be some invention. You can get priority for an idea using the PPA (provisional patent application) which gives you a year to file your RPA (regular patent application. The RPA usually does have to have some supporting information to support your claims. To use your wheelbarrow analogy, I can't just say that the existing wheelbarrows are rectangular so I am going to patent an icosahedral wheelbarrow. I would have to describe or show how the icosahedral wheelbarrow is an improvement over the rectangular wheelbarrow. Also, if the icosahedral wheelbarrow would be an obvious application of wheelbarrow technology to anybody skilled in the art of wheelbarrows it would not be patentable.

Thus my opinion of Orbitec's patents. Using LEDs as light sources for aquariums is obvious. It is a natural evolution as new forms of lighting become viable. Just like CF, MH, T5HO, plasma lighting etc. As lighting improves or changes it gets adopted for aquarium use. Now they are trying to claim some spatial and spectral control that leads to better growth. So they should have shown exactly how that spatial and spectral control affects growth and is an advantage over other light sources etc. The patent is way to broad and if issued should have been for a specific set of wavelengths and time periods demonstrated to have an advantage over other set ups.

In any case, I am going to read the full patents when I have a chance in the next day or two and give you a summary then. But from first glance they are not accurate as they imply that other forms of lighting have not been used to promote growth in corals which is wrong. The problem is that patent examiners are usually not experts in the fields of the patents they are reviewing and rarely do the research necessary to understand and qualify the information in the patents. It goes both ways. We had a horror of a patent examiner once who didn't understand our patent, didn't understand the responses to her comments and held up our patent for a while because she was disinterested in doing her job properly and was completely wrong about her understanding of the technology. We finally had to complain to the USPTO about her conduct to get the patent issued.

led lighting
 

i have been looking into led lighting as well and i've found two places.for my nano i've found on ebay a do it yourself kit from waterkei-around $70.00 powered by a computer powerbox with different coloured leds and for my 220 gallon at alibaba complete led lighting at 150 ,250 and 350 watt.for two units of the 250s the price is $500 plus delivery and about $200 in brokerage fees

Just to add to the above, a utility patent also has to have an invention. The new use for an old something has to be novel and non-obvious. Again, using the wheelbarrow analogy, if I wanted to patent the use of wheelbarrows for something different such as being a mobile platform to stand on so I can reach up higher that use has to be a new one that it was not used for before (i.e, no prior art) and it has to be non-obvious so nobody had ever thought to move the wheelbarrow over to that wall and stand on it to reach the light fixture and change the lightbulb.

Make sure you know what you are getting. The actual LED emitters used (brand, colour and wattage and optics or no optics) make all the difference. All the cheap LED fixtures I have seen, especially those out of China, would probably only be useful for fish only tanks or maybe low light softies at best.

The Eco-Lamps ones are a great example. I haven't looked at the newer KR92 series but after some emails to them about the KR91 series I found out that the emitters were o.5 watt chinese LEDs with no optics so there is no way you could keep anything but lower light demanding corals with it. They would definitely not support SPS. Don't get me wrong, the Eco-Lamps look really nice and probably well built but just know what you are getting in terms of light output vs. what you require in lighting for your livestock.