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Zeovit vs. Fauna Marin
Which system is better? Now that's a loaded question :). Can I get some feed back from those of you who have run either system What you like/didn't like. Did it make a difference.
I am looking at it for a 50g SPS tank. Thank you |
Hi Martym
As I have not used both product I can not say which is better. I have used ZEOvit for the last 2 years and I have been more than happy with the results. I always had a problem of keeping my water perimeter in line and ZEOvit has helped my maintain my parameters at a steady controlled level. My growth and colour have also been well enhanced. The cost is expensive however there is a savings from not using a number of other additives. If you are serious about using ZEOvit then go to ZEOvit.com for your research. Tom R |
I used FM for about 6 months or so. After the first ultralith rock change I experienced a brownout of corals that was never really fully explained. I continued with the product and coral colors rebounded after about 2 months now (about 3 months into using the product). Any subsequent rock changes were done without any problems and I never did figure out what happened. During the time I ran FM, I never saw the great colors that were experienced by others, some corals were looking pretty good but they mostly looked like they had before I started using the product. During this time I had heard about a couple of zeovit products, Coral Snow and Pohls Coral Vitalizer, and decided to incorporate those into my daily dosing. I'd say within 7-10 days (no lie) I saw my corals start to color up like they hadn't done with the FM product. I continued on with FM as I wanted to give it a full 6 month trial. However close to the end of the trial a zeovit reactor with some supplements became available to me for a really good deal and I jumped on it.
I'm into my 3rd week with zeovit now, corals are getting more colorful each week it seems. I'll give zeovit the same 6 month trial but for sure I think its doing better than the FM although its too early to tell and I'm not yet at that first rock change. Now I'm not saying that FM isn't the one for you, it just wasn't the one for me. I found that when I was running it there wasn't much support out there for it online. Someone had started a website (www.ultralith.com) however it is poorly supported. There is also a FaunaMarin forum now at ReefCentral which has better support. At the time I was having problems it was like pulling teeth to get some help. However, some people certainly have great success with ultralith, there are many photos of successful tanks online. Wendell at Ocean Aquatics was running it on his SPS display tank and the colors were incredible. I just was unable to achieve that. I strongly suspect I might have without the brownout at the first rock change. It was just taking too long to see results and I felt I was just pouring money into something that wasn't working for me. Anyway thats my fifty cents :wink: |
Thank you
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Hi
ultrlith.com was made by private people and they were not able to give us the site so we can make the support which was necessary. It needs some time till we can organize our distribution and support in north america. Now we have in reef central our bord and i look also here in that great forum all 2 days. Fauna Marin is different then Zeolith cause our Ultralith System is only a part of our pröoduct range . We alsocreate and developed special foods and our system are made for mix tanks with a wide range of corals and fish and not only sps corals With a special dosing you can also achive great coloration but this needs also time and diszciplin to get good results Even during changes it can need some time till the water levels wil be so good to get the good resulst Feel free to ask here whenever you want greets claude |
Just thought I’d chime in here with my own experience and observations on both systems.
First, a quick debriefing on the one issue that seems to have kept most people out of Probiotic methodologies for so long: Cost comparisons between Zeovit System from Korallen-Zucht and Ultralith from Fauna-Marin Zeovit Basic 4: Zeovit Media 1L: $14.45 (J&L) Zeofood 50 mL: $15.95 (J&L) Zeobak 10 mL: $15.95 (J&L) Zeostart 250mL: $35.95(J&L) We’ll make the calculation for a 120 gallon tank, assuming 100 gallon is the net water volume. Dosing would be as follows: Media Exchange: 1 L every 6 to 8 weeks. Zeofood7: 4 drops per day Zeostart2: 0.8mL per day Zeobak: 4 drops once a week Each mL approximately contains 20 drops Zeofood7: 0.2 mL per day Zeobak: 0.2 mL per week At this rate: Zeofood 50 mL: $15.95 (J&L) 250 doses /30 = $1.91 per month Zeobak 10 mL: $15.95 (J&l) 50 doses /5 doses per month= $1.60 per month Zeostart 250mL: $35.95(J&l) 312 doses = $3.46 per month Zeovit Media 1 L: $14.45 for 6 week = $10.32 per month Total costs for 100 gallon net water volume: $17.29 per month This is the Stage 1 & 2 the system, once established and at Stage 3, you will reduce dosing and, subsequently, the cost to pretty damn near only 70% of this figure. Ultralith Basic 4: UltraBio 50 ml: $56.03 (Progressive Reef) Ultralith 1l: $19.07 (Progressive Reef) Ultramin S 100ml: $26.28 (Progressive Reef) Ultrabak 100ml: $26.28 (Progressive Reef) Again, we’ll make the calculation for that same 120gallon tank, assuming 100 gallon is the net water volume: Media Exchange: 1 liter every 6 to 8 weeks. UltraBio: 8 drops twice a week Ultramin S: .8ml per day Ultrabak: 1.6ml once a day Each CC approximately contains 20 drops UltraBio 50 ml: $56.03 (Progressive Reef) 125 doses / 17= $7.62 per month Ultralith 1l: $19.07 (Progressive Reef) for 6 weeks = $13.62 per month Ultramin S 100ml: $26.28 (Progressive Reef) 125 doses= $6.31 per month Ultrabak 100ml: $26.28 (Progressive Reef) 62 doses = $12.72 per month Total costs for 100 gallon net water volume: $40.27 per month. So basically, Ultralith, for the same size tank, cost almost 233% more. Actually, while doing the calculations, this was a shocker to me since I was told that Ultralith is a cheaper system. In addition, as per the Ultralith manual, you have to soak the media one week in advance while changing the water several times to rinse it. With Zeovit you just rinse and it’s ready to go. Overall, I find the Zeovit system easier to apply. Here’s another costs differential – Startup kits (no reactor): Zeovit: $82.30 J&L Ultralith: $127.66 Progressive Reef With both systems, you’ll want a reactor and you can get a complete Zeovit system for $199.95 from J&L including a Reactor (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s...t_ID=zv-00p151). If you buy the same reactor from J&L (http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/s...uct_ID=vt-zr15) then tack on the Ultralith, you’re looking at $267.61. Finally, where a review really counts, my own personal experience: As stated earlier, my first foray into Probiotic systems was with Ultralith, purchased by merit of hearsay on the forums claiming that the costs would be significantly lower than Zeovit. I ran the system for over three months with little result other than slightly reduced nutrient levels. This wasn’t really at par with my expectations. But before throwing the towel, I figured I’d double back and try the Zeovit system (I had really good experiences with KZ’s Coral Vitalizer and Coral Snow), which I have now been running for a little over six months. Here’s what I can say; after only four weeks of switching out the Ultralith media with Zeovit media and running the new additives (basic 4 only), I began to see amazing results. My algae started to rapidly die off, my corals both exhibited noticeably increased color and polyp extension. I believe that Zeovit has a lot more going for it as a Probiotic system. It’s been around longer, it’s tried and proven across many reef tanks across many countries and more readily available. I personally prefer the Zeovit system, as I have a mixed reef and don’t like the pale look of corals people get from other probiotic systems. With Zeovit, I have been getting amazing colors & polyp extension beyond what I expected from the system initially. I hope this helps. All calculations based off manufacturer’s guides and observations are IME. |
Good post and info Oceanic Corals.
Much appreciated. |
Oceanic, I think you'll find it much cheaper if you price the ultralith from Ocean Aquatics. I think I had it priced out at around $30 a month for 100gal net water volume.
Also Ultralith doesn't have to be run using a reactor, or you can run it in a phosban reactor if you choose. |
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I know all the probiotic proponents will say things like "Well when you're feeding your fish daily it only takes a couple more minutes to dose the additives." or "Probiotic systems are not for 'lazy' hobbyists." Unfortunately, I regularly have to go out of town for the weekend or longer and I don't want to have to rely on someone else to dose several additives. When I've tried vodka dosing in the past I always felt guilty about having to miss days of dosing when I was away and didn't have a tank-sitter. I like my tank and I like to tinker (sometimes too much) but I don't want to HAVE to do something daily at the risk of some potential negative consequences - I have enough stress at work. I don't want my hobby to be a source of stress. So I guess probiotic systems are for those people who can devote the time and aren't worried about the incurred expenses. Sorry for the off topic post. I just wanted to make it clear that while many of us look at probiotic tanks and like what we see and aren't concerned about the costs, we just don't have the patience for the tedium of daily dosing. |
Hi Oceanic
Thanks for your costs calculation but i think there is something not correct. First of all it depends on the situation how much you need of the products to get the results. As sample Ultra Bio or Bak This products need mostly only for 2 month en then never or with very very low dosings so you can use Ultra Bio as sample for 400 days with one bottle Min S the same the most reefers use after longer time may 0.5 ml/1000 Liter !!!! a day which means one bottle good for 500 days with a 260 gallon tank only during the beginning or if you have a change you need a little bit more as sample 3 ml / 1000 Liter not on 100 liters So you cannot make a calculation on that way the same is that the starter kits that we produce have 2 Liter media in not only 1 and we have also other sizes of bottles. The Ultralith System is a little bit different following a littel other ideas and animals it is more for mix tanks and more in direction natural colors We did not work with high copper dosings or such things which make the corals very fast very white . No problem to create such a product but this i not our line greets claude |
Hi Oceanic corals.
In regards to support, now I am the distributor the support is constant, 7 days a week, contact me by email any time and you will get fast response, I am aware of issues in the past but that was the past, we are now commiting to our users and proud to assist everyone, no matter what system the support as many use parts of both. The Ultra Lith starter is $99 and comes with 2L of media. If your dosing and calculations are what you are basing your results on cost and tank effectiveness I am not surprised. This is the reason why Ultra Lith is so popular and Cheaper! with Ultra Lith you don’t have to dose every day. For example with other system you have to always dose the bio food stuff with fauna you only dose for two weeks, then stop for one week and repeat until you have brought your total media volume up to the correct level, after which you only dose for 2 weeks again when you do a media change, and here is another catch with other systems, you have to replace ALL the media, with Ultra lith you replace only half, so you see you are saving on media and bio immediatly. If you were replacing ALL the media this is basically like starting from scratch again and so your results would never be very comparable. In regards to effectiveness other than this, Fauna employ only natural ways to achieve coral success, and do not adopt fast methods for temporary results, the Fauna system takes time but the results are natural and highly successful. As Claude points out no copper is used in the system only natural ingredients so you are replicating what is achieved on the wild, this does not mean other systems are wrong, just fauna takes the approach of replicating natures own methods. As for ease of dosing this is something that the Ultra Lith system is known for and with the advent of the comparibly cheap GHL dosing system you can automate the whole process. Picture here, info can be found in our forum http://progressivereef.com/prodimage...adosing-lg.gif Here is the basic dosing schedule for Ultra Lith systems from start up, as you can see it is dead easy to follow and can be fully automated Here is a simple step by step guide mainly based around 400L or 100 gallons of tank water. When calculating your own volume please decrease by 20% to take into account displacement of sand and rocks etc. To start • Use 250ml of Ultra Lith per 400L of water as an initial start up • Increase by 250ml every two weeks until you have reached 1L capacity per 400L of water • After 6 weeks exchange 50% of the Ultra Lith. Repeat this 6 week 50% cycle from now on • Clean (shake) the Ultra Lith daily, for best results utilise an Ultra Lith reactor, this makes life so much easier. Initial dosing from start up Dose as follows Ultra Bio • Dose 1 drop per 100L of water per day for the first two weeks • Week 3 do not dose • Repeat after 1 week break • Turn skimmer off for 2 hours when dosing. Note – after initial set up it is only required to dose as above when changing the Ultra Lith media. Ultra bak and Ultra Min S • Dose 3ml per 1000L of water every day of each until nutrients have dropped significantly then reduce dosing to 1ml a day of each. Continued use. • Repeat Ultra Bio dosing schedule when replacing media every 6 weeks. • Dose Ultra Min S and Ultra Bak 1ml a day per 1000L of water keeping check on your parameters. • It is now advisable to be adding trace elements such as Ultra organic this is key to colouration. Dose as instructed on the bottle. • You can also use Ultra organic with Ultra Amin to achieve very bright colouration • I recommend using Ultra carb L also this is important for removing the yellow tannins from the water. |
Hold the horses friends!
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But for the sake of arguement, let’s do a quick comparison just to be sure: UltraBio 50 ml: $56.03 (Progressive Reef) Ultralith 1l: $19.07 (Progressive Reef) Ultramin S 100ml: $26.28 (Progressive Reef) Ultrabak 100ml: $26.28 (Progressive Reef) UltraBio 50 ml: $38.49 (Ocean Aquatics) Ultralith 1l: $17.39 (Ocean Aquatics) Ultramin S 100ml: Price not listed, so let’s assume it’s the same price as the Ultrabak $23.89 (see Progressive Reef) Ultrabak 100ml: $23.89 (Ocean Aquatics) Cost difference $19.50. At this rate, we’re looking at a 15% difference. So let’s apply that to my previous monthly figure: $40.27 x 15% = $6.04, so our costs go down to $34.23/mo Quote:
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But as far as the price goes, we still have to compare products where they merit comparisons, so let’s add another bag of media ($14.45 @ JL) to the Zeovit started kit at $82.30 = $96.75 Quote:
Also: http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14322 Reaffirmed by the manufacturer http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14318 Point being is that yes, with any Probiotic system, you can get away with using less equipment, dosing less product, getting slower results, then claiming that the processes are more natural. Fundamentally, however, you’re pulling the proverbial wool over your eyes to justify unimpressive results. My experience with the product already demonstrated this. From the looks of things, Christy’s experience also mirrored this sentiment. I would like to note that when using Zeovit, you DO NOT have to presoak the media for a week nor do you replace all the media upon switch-out, you replace 75% of it. Apples to apples please. Quote:
http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread....ghlight=copper Look, my previous post was to elaborate in as to what constitutes as a better system IMO. You may not look upon it as such, but I find such broad handed statements not only advocate fallacy, but misrepresents how the system (Zeovit) functions. Basically, it’s comparable to quote mining and, as a salesman by trade, I don’t appreciate the underhanded tactics by either yourself or the manufacturer. You can give us the straight facts and that would be appreciated a great deal, but the current lot of information really dissuades me from attempting the brand any further. So, being accountable, let’s look at the facts (as per my research): - The Zeovit system is a product produced by Korallen-Zucht. - Korallen-Zucht manufacturers a host of other additive lines that work independently of the Zeovit system. - The Zeovit system does NOT contain COPPER in any form, be it organic or inorganic, chelated or otherwise. - The product you refer to is called Spur2. This is an optional additive that can either be used either with or without the Zeovit and has no association with Probiotic methodology. See the above link for more info on Spur2. Ultimately, Fauna Marin should be able to stand independently by its own merits and should not need misrepresentation of information to generate a sale and/or following. |
Hiya
As you can clearly see from my post no other brand was referred to specifically as there are so many out there and I have absolute no interest in these sort of discussions. My only mention was of fauna products, with accurate information. I have zero interest in getting involved in debates on which system is best and will not get drawn into such pointless battles, I believe in positivity only. Both Claudes and my posts were highlighting some miss conceptions of the product and how it is used which we both are entitled to do, and of course the benefits of using the system. Normally we do not get involved in open forum discussions, only when we feel posts are slightly miss leading or inaccurate, as it is for the consumer to report on not us. As it seems a subject you are quite fired up about I feel it is best nothing further is said from me to stay positive and peaceful and welcome you any time to try the system if you so choose. It is clear you are a great fan of ZeoVit which your thread is solely based around promoting which is great, maybe you stock the range also??? I am pleased the system works for you as i am sure it does for many others. But what works for one may not work for another and it is for the consumer to decide. What our job is to do is clear any miss conceptions of our product range, give accurate information when asked in a positive way not putting the sytem against others, and highlight its very effective results irrelvant of other systems on the market as it is the Ultra Lith system that is of interest to us not other systems. We as a company will only ever talk about the benefits of the Fauna Marin Ultra Lith system and will never get dragged into these sort of his product is better than your product pointless battles that only fuels friction. Yes there is competition in the market and I believe that is a good thing it gives consumer choice and that is great for the buying public. Nothing further to add. But I have a sneeky suspicion this thread is set to run :lol: Best wishes Michael |
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:mrgreen: |
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+2 :2gunfire: |
I used FM and everybottle of bak that ordered was outdated and had the foul spoiled smell they manufacturer advised about. I went on the ultralith forum and was advised that the product was still good 6 months after the best before date on the bottle, the problem was that the bottles was sent past these dates. Hopefully the manufacturer has fixed these problems.
I tried for 6 months and eventually went with zeo because of the ability of getting fresher stock. I did like the ultralife and still use it. I think zeo is easier to obtain from LFS as well the only way to access the bac driven system here and in calgary is from online vendors. I was in Calgary on the weekend and Daniel at Wais does carry FM products but not the Bac system he carries the Zeo products for a Bac driven system. |
One thing is for sure, NOTHING is sent from our dealers out of date. I can not comment much on the past as that is the past, but if you know how we operate, customer care is paramount and if we hear of out dated stock being sold we would address that immediatly like any responsible distributor.
Luckily now for the FM range the amount of dealers in canada is growing and we are taking on new dealers weekly, so i would like to think under us a fresh light has been cast on the great product, and we will do all we can to make sure accessibility and informity is kept to an optimum level. This is why we support all you guys so heavily on CANREEF as we know how important it is to look after the homegrown market. Rest assured if you have any questions concerns or anything else we are here to help so situations that may of happened before are only in the past. Onwards and upwards, now I will shut up :redface: (Unless asked directly). But please keep track of my forum as I dont venture into the public domain of CANREEF hardly ever and that is where all updates and promos are done :) |
That is good that FM is trying to address the problem from the past.
I just wanted to share my experience with the product, I will continue to use Ultralife. I just find it hard to believe when i have heard this before from claude, meanwhile not replacing the products i purchased FM in the first place. Just my oppinion Buyer beware |
Ok looks like my presence is set to stay
Any potential supply issues in the past are now 100% addressed and we are in full flow of building this excellent brand to where it should be and have been wholly encouraged by the huge support we have received thus far irrelevant of external pressures. Its the product and support that matters and the level of client care NOW provided. The range has a massive following in Europe and it is a shame up until now people have not really seen the true value this range now supported so strongly over here, has to offer for what ever reason. I am sorry but buyer beware is not justified at all, you are dealing with me no matter who you purchase FM from and I stand by my own strong solid reputation. Not one dealer is selling out of date stock, if they are then i need to know. if you receive out of date stock and can not get this addressed i am here to help as always. Please visit my forum you may get a better feel for the values I stand by and the support I give everyone. Buyer supported consistantly. I have a funny feeling the way this thread is going which is a shame for such a valid starting place. :sad: So to put back on track, email me and we will discuss your out of date products irrelvant of where when or who you purchased from. Here to help and support |
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Your responses have been great and demonstrate your dedication to your product. There will always be questions and negative comments, but they do not have to take control of a converstation. |
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Many thanks for everyones support.
Sadly I am well versed in the negative camps, but my job is to make sure everyone gets a chance to see the positive side to not just our range but the Zeo Lith system as a whole no matter whos you choose to use. I would like to think FM has a fresh start now and we are currently running some big reviews on both Lith and balling, so please keep track of our updates. And in the next 6 months I will have at home a 4x4x2.5' system solely Lith run, anyone is welcome to drop by and see it :wink: |
The result of competition between different manufactures simply results in better products for us, the end user. As companies vie for market share and customer base they find new and innovative products to market. I am glad we have more than one company that produces products with similar results as the ultimate goal. Everyone has the right to voice their own opinion as long as it is constructive and beneficial in nature.
:neutral: |
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It would be cool to see aquadigital drop the 4 pump dosing system down to $200 so I could afford one |
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Thats about $200 less than what they cost me then :(
It was actually suggested to me this week to put them up in price as there is nothing on the market that comes close to them for functionality apparently (dont start I have not researched that just passing on the comment). I seriosuly cant keep them in stock for dealers, brought in I think 25 last shipment and have zero left but back orders going nuts. Think GHL found a market here for sure with this one :) |
I am in no way saying that my experiences are a reflection on aquadigital, and my experiences are through FM dealers here in Canada and in the U.S.
Also through Claude at FM himself. If the promblem is fixed then great my question is why did it take so long and at my expense. When I had the same experience with zeo, the product was exchanged and expressed shipped at their expense, to me that is customer service. Not to be told there is nothing they can do. Again my experience with FM is negative, but has nothing to do with aquadigital. |
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Agreed and well said Brad. I am enjoying reading this thread and the info its providing, by all parties, and do hope it stays on course. |
Common Michael,
Hook A Brother Up |
Patrick, you know i would if i could sorry buddy, maybe look at the 1 doser and build from there as funds allow, least you then have the unit and are then free to expand as required.
Unfortunately I dont have a time machine to go back and fix any issues that may of gone on in the past, but I am surprised Claude himself said there is nothing he can do as that is 100% the opposite to his approach on business, client loyalty comes first, I am very surprised at this as only a few months ago he helped a dealer out with out of date stock and shipped at his fullest expense new items, i know this as I dealt with the case personally. Are you sure you spoke with claude?? I truly am amazed if you did, and am sure there must have been a cross reference or something.:question: I will talk to Claude tomorrow about this, please drop me an email right away with all your details so we can look back at past records. That being said, I cant go back in time but what i can do is make sure the best service in the industry is offered directly by us and Fauna from the moment we took ownership. And thats the way forward now, building a strong brand with excellent support and client care, giving accurate answers and providing Canreef members direct access to both myself and Claude at any time |
I know Michael,
I have 2 goals in life get my girlfreind's best friend to clean my bathroom. And get some kind of freebie out of you. |
I just sent you a couple of 10grams of free fauna food in a stash bag didnt I:question:
What more could you ask for, free smellies in the post for your fish to enjoy and worry the hell out of the postman why his mail bag now smells of high grade fish oils :lol: |
I just started using Zeovit on 120G and like the progress so far. Thanks for the cost calulations of the 2 bio media.
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why do people pay so much for vinegar and bacteria?and why add 1 drop of Zeobak when theres already supposed to be a bazillion bacterias living.
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The issue has been addressed and validated since many moons ago. Bacterial driven systems, as in those which extend beyond Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter, have long achieved standing as legitimate, highly successful methods of recreating super low nutrient environments not possible through other means. VSV methods have achieved results, but many would rather opt for the convenience and peace of mind that comes with a retail product. Metaphorically, you could liken it to eating out instead of cooking at home... Or something like that, haw haw. |
Hi
Hi Guys
If i read this this postings my meaning is that a some people have big issues that we have success on the market and started to create a war of words against FM stuff. Iám not here to discuss which company is better or not. We have our ideas create our own products and on many parts of reef keeping we are leaders in developtment like food for Azoo corals , Fish and special corals We also create a slight different system to a well know competitor but we did not only make a ULNS System. The most of our costumers changed to our system and did not make a lot of words on it they only use it the most with success others not. Like in every system It is not difficult for me to create a extrem products to increase fast and extrem corals i only need to put some metals like copper in my products like other do and in 2 days you corals glow and your algeas gone. Everyone looks only on some pictures and think all will gone easy but nobody talks on hundreds chrashed tanks. Do not missunderstood me i like what my competitor do without competitiors no better ideas and no changing and that is important for the success that we all want to have. We go a little bit different way like the others do and that all Even like some friends of each system means to do a good work if they make the other company bad. I dont think so !!!! As i said a long time before Reefkeeping is like cooking you can have the best foods , the best kitchen, the best manuals ,but without feeling no meal will be good My company is younger then others on the market but the most of you uses products which i developed severals years ago for other brands during my time when i work in other companys. so i know what i produced and how i test the products. Other company are much longer on the market and had more time for service , Forums, dealers and others so give me a chance and did not think i had to do all in a few weeks where others needs 6 and more years.!!! @ Powertec I have no idea which is your name so if you send me an PM i can see and have a change to react on your questions but without name no way for me For any others write me an mail and i will help asap i can greets claude |
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By default, you've just made harsh, unsubstantiated accusations against Korallen Zucht. |
Do not missunderstood me i like what my competitor do !
That is my real meaning so you missunderstood me . sorry for that my english is not as well to write it on that way that all can understand correctly how i mean it greets claude |
Claude is merely defending his company from comments within this thread which he is entitled to do, espcially under the pressure that is clearly being waged on the new kid on the block. This actually gives me great relief as the FM product is being taken very seriously.
No I dont expect stacks of people to come on here and rave about the FM system as it is relatively new, but given time as the user base spreads which it is very fast now with Claudes and my own user support, then in 6 months the debate will become more balanced, but even then as a company both FM and myself will never say one is better than the other, different maybe, but not better. Each has its own merits dependant on what the user wishes to acheive. So lets get on track and discuss the merits of both systems and please everyone drop all this "my system is better than your system" talk. Constructive positive PLEASE. Nothing is ever gained from negative marketing, ever. |
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