Electrical question
 

One of my skimmer pumps is leaking voltage..

Is there anything to look for in terms of seeing if the pump can be salvaged?

I'm sort of suspecting "no" but I thought I'd give the pump a once-over tomorrow nonetheless. Likely though I'm buying a replacement ...

Question #2 ... why wouldn't it have tripped the GFCI if I have a grounding probe? Is there a minimum threshold for creating a ground fault?

I realize that the skimmer being in the sump that the ground probe should also have been in the sump, but I could feel the trickle of electricity in the display so I thought it would have gone to ground and thus tripped the GFCI? The GFCI trips pretty easily in other circumstances.

Just wonderin' .. thanks

If you can feel it there's enough current to trip the GFCI, UL mandates a 6mA threshold. Does it trip if you put the probe in the sump? If not I'd test and replace that GFCI.

For the pump you could maybe pull the plastic off and slop some epoxy around where the cord terminates but I'd never trust it.

Different GFIs have different ratings. You shouldn't be able to feel the voltage if using a ground probe, if you can feel it the probe isn't working.

It should be noted almost all submerged pumps will put some voltage in the water, but it should be very little. The problem comes from placing an electric motor in a highly conductive salt bath which can result in electromagnetic induction, which will produce a voltage source. This is different from so called "stray voltage" as it is not power leaking from the supply but rather power generated from the magnetic field within the pump.

Also measuring the voltage within the water actually tells you very little about this kind of situation, you really need to measure the current.

I seem to have misplaced my multimeter so I'm unable to measure current. Might have to just pick up a new one, I've lost it pretty good, I don't think I've used it since before I moved .... four years ago. :redface:

Anyhow it was sort of through a serendipitous sequence of events that I found it. Indeed with the grounding probe in, I can't feel the tingling in the main tank. I was just moving some things around and had the probe unplugged and noticed it. Then while trying to find it, I brushed my hand against the air intake tube of the skimmer (it's covered in salt spray) and that's when I really felt the zap-zap-zap-zap (didn't feel like a full 110 though :neutral:). I just thought it was odd that if I say, spill water on the floor and the puddle touches the return pump, the GFCI kicks off no problem. I've also managed to kick the GFCI off by strategically (:lol:) spilling water during water changes (hey, I'm a klutz, what can I say. :redface:) ... So I know the GFCI trips in other circumstances, just thought it was odd it did not in this one.

But I bet it will trip if I move the GFCI to the sump. Will try that tonight and see what comes of it. Guess it goes to show you really need ground probes in both the main tank AND the sump, if indeed it trips fine then.

I currently run GFCI's with all my aquarium equipment but am a bit confused.
Do I need to run a ground probe in the tanks for the GFCI to do it's thing. Better yet, have I been reaching into the tank all these years thinking I'm safe when I really haven't been?:redface:

Yes, it would be better to run a grounding probe. The GFCI will trip on a ground fault which in the absence of a grounding probe in the tank means it pretty much means it can only shut off if water gets onto a plug (ie., thus connecting one of the hot or neutral wires to ground -> thus "ground fault" -> thus tripping GFCI).

Without a ground probe in the tank, a submerged electrical device may have a leakage but without a path to ground the electric potential has nowhere to go. Thus if you stick your hand in the tank and say, your foot or something connects to ground (not the "ground" as in "floor" but I mean "ground" as in "somewhere for the current to go to") then you become the ground, thus getting zapped and bypassing the GFCI. Whereas a ground probe would be a better ground than you, and thus the electrical current would go there instead.

At least that's how I understand it. :redface:

I really don't like to get into this kind of discussion as everyone always seems to have various opinions and comments and no conclusion in ever resolved.

However to contradict myself I would first off never use a ground probe. Ground probes create current from stray voltage, once you have current you have danger. Saying that you're safe because the ground probe is always a better ground than yourself is false, if you come between the voltage source and ground probe you could be in a lot of trouble, much more than if the ground probe wasn't there. Secondly almost all electrical components are going to create a small amount of stray voltage, however this is harmless and will not trigger a GFI. Add a ground probe and now you've given all those components potential, meaning they have somewhere to send that voltage and sometimes will send more because of it. This results in a loss of current which can trigger a GFI. Some say great, then I'll know when something is wrong. But what happens when it triggers on that long weekend when you're out of town??

Basically argue all you want but you really shouldn't use both a grounding probe and a GFCI together. It's unnecessary and they can interfere with each other. GFCIs are designed to trigger the second current is lost, it will trigger before you're zapped, you do not need a ground probe.

I didn't think I was arguing. :( Not sure where you think I was, not my intent at all.

If it's better to run without probes then so be it. I gave my reasoning and the disclaimer that this was how I understood it - if the reasoning is faulty then I appreciate the gesture of being corrected. So what you're saying is a "ground fault" is an unbalance of hot and neutral? Ie., it doesn't mean there's current on the ground wire?

One point though, I would rather lose a tank on a long weekend than my life. **If** it really came down to that. But it's comforting to note that the absence of a ground probe doesn't mean you're at risk.

I just don't like being electrocuted is all.

Peace?

I am an electrical engineer and I will tell you that a ground probe is neccessary, that is why it is built in to everything from house to idustrial sites as syncrude.
You are always better having one

I wasn't referring to you arguing, just that this topic always starts these kinds of arguments, so I was referring to future arguments not past ones.:mrgreen:

Though some that is true, I fail to see how the ground probe in your house relates to ones in question. All house grounds are connected directly to appliances, they are not located on one side of the house, isolated so when a short occurs it has to travel through the air towards the isolated pole. All your aquariums electrical components are already grounded like every house hold item. You'll have to go more into detail than I'm an engineer and that's how it is.

I am not here to debate, but for safety sake use the gorund rod or plate or whatever. If you want an explanation give me your email and i will send you the proof, also the CEC code of practice in regards to this question also the CSA position on GfCI. I am not here to debate on this thread as you seem to be, take my advice or don't, but i would make sure your are using one.

By code you have to have a GFCI in your bathroom in case you drop your hair dryer into the sink full of water. Or reach into the water when holding your hair dryer.
Obviously there is no ground probe in your sink. Isn't it the same thing with your aquarium?
I'm really in the dark here and just don't want to find myself floating over my lifeless body on my way to who knows where

Hopefully up:angel:

your sink should be grounded if its metal and it its not it wont matter as it wont conduct anyways.

A GFCI works by measuring the current entering (hot) and leaving (the identified conductor commenly called neutral) you can have a ground fault and not have a gfci trip under the right circumstances but a solid connected ground is not necessary for a GFCI to trip as the current in a fault without solid ground could still make it to ground via a person or object.
i use a GFCI but no ground probe.
BTW most aquarium products are not grounded they are double insulated you can tell because none of them have a 3rd prong on the cord, the only thing that usually is grounded is the light as some require a proper ground to startup lights, and often have exposed metal on the fixture that needs to be grounded as per CEC and CUL.

If you have "proof" relating to why people should use a ground probe in there aquarium I'm sure many people would appreciate you posting it here. I still don't see how all these codes you're referring to relate to aquariums.

I'm sorry if you feel I'm trying to "debate" this topic but when I give an opinion relating to such a serious topic I just feel it's a good to give reasoning. Call it what you want but how can you expect people to take you seriously if you can't give them explanation?

Article published by that Georgia Tech professor

Monti-Man, my husband is an electrician and he would agree with you. I have been given crap often for not having a ground probe in a sump as well as the tank and what-not..:lol: Prior to that, I've been drilled several times because of a cracked heater, etc.


Tony, just out of curiosity, is the pump leaking voltage a Sedra? We had two Sedras do that to us.

Thanks for the great article. It has answered a lot of my questions. It's always good to get an expert opinion.
His tank and Bio are very impressive. How many people design and build their own computer systems to run the tank lighting.
Very nice

another option is to run a couple of GFIC circuits and the ground probe, only the one with the problem will trip if something goes wrong. i have 4 different GFIC's in my setup, just for this reason. also many recommend not plugging your main pump into a GFIC, this can be dangerous but not so much if you have a ground probe in the sump.

just some thoughts......

Oh, haha, Ok. :) Fair enough. I apologize for opening a can of worms, I had no idea. :redface:

Not trying to be smart here, but is the skimmer plugged into a GFI (I've got a mix of GFI and non-GFi receptacles around my tank) or could the GFI be faulty?

Also for GFI's aren't they to trip within a 1/2 cycle, so that if you did grab that hair dryer that fell into that un-grounded sink, as soon as you reached in and provided a ground path it would immediately trip?

What I tell you :agrue:, haha although I pretty much started it all but someone did ask :biggrin:

Bottom line is everyone will never agree on this topic. I know how current and voltage works and what exactly ground probes do, I work on various aquariums on a weekly basis and I will never work on one that uses a ground probe, never :exclaim: after all without a ground probe you have to be grounded, with one you don't!

I'm sort of imagining the current as looking like lightning, and I wouldn't want my hand to be between the point of "where's it coming from" and the point of "where it's going to." I would just have to hope that should it ever happen, something will make it stop before it makes me stop.

But apart from that. I am still a bit concerned that the GFCI didn't trip. When I brushed up against the skimmer, the jolt was pretty significant. Probe or no probe, the GFCI isn't tripping. It is on a GFCI though, my tanks are on two different breakers both of which are on GFCI. However it is a mess of extension cords and power bars and timers. Some of which is probably an absolutely no-no like daisy chaining power bars. I wonder if I moved the skimmer pump to a different plug, would the GFCI trip then.

I would hope the thing isn't faulty ..

I guess the thing to do maybe is buy a multimeter and test the amount of current/voltage? Maybe it's not as bad as it felt, and that would explain why the GFCI isn't tripping?

Short of that I'm not sure how to test the viability of the GFCI (other than pressing the "test" button that is!)

I did order a new pump today nonetheless though. I'm just assuming the protocol here is just replace it and move on.

The purpose for using a ground rod is to diminish potential difference. For example if a heater leaks or fails, there will be a potential difference bewteen the piece of equipment and ground. When using the grounding rods or plates supplied by the supply ( the ground rods at the power supply to the house or to the local utility transformer) it is often located far enough away from the tank. This is the leakage that we feel, If we use a grounding probe at the tank we diminsh the effect of the leakage, the effect diminishes or increases with distance.


This is as simple as I can state it. If you don't want to use one don't This is just my opinion, with years of designing electrical distribution, from everything from watertreatment plants to multifamily dwelling.

You might get away with it once or maybe a thousand times, but I am of the belief that price might be to high to take that chance. The rest I leave up to you.

Well I,m not an electrician or engineer but here,s my "proof". :biggrin: {and in all fairness to Steve, I dont have a clue, but have read both sides of the ground probe argument, many times on many boards}.

Leaky Tunze stream pump. No ground probe, shocked when contact with halide pendant and water or as in my case, lightning arcing from the reflector to my forehead. :lol:

Ground probe in tank or sump, no shock. But then I would never had know my pump was bad. :smile:

Tony, my GFI never tripped at first when I was shocked, but if you remember the thread it did later and also the GFI/Arc Fault. This was after the ground probe was back in but no idea if that had anything to do with it then tripping the GFI circuits or does it take a certain amount of voltage leak to do so ??

:lol: I'm sorry, I really did kinda laugh when I got to this part. It was the only sentence I understood!!! :redface:

I guess then it's just a question of sometimes these things trip GFCI's, and sometimes they don't ... and you'd have to be an electrician or engineer to understand the difference :lol:

The only reason I started this thread is, I've been letting my 3 year old dump his tank in the tank to feed the fish. I give him flake or pellets, if he doesn't stick his hand into the water then the fish food mostly sticks to his hands and it's just easier to shake it off and let the fish eat the food that comes off. He loves it, the fish love it, he loves that the fish love it and it makes me happy to see him happy - it's just one of those "parenting" moments I guess. :lol: .... I'd just hate to think I'm subjecting him to risk by letting him do this ... One day I'm might forget to stick my finger in the water first to make sure there's no zap zap..

In all my years of reefing though I've only had leakages twice (and this is one of them). The other one was a failed pump as well... I still just find it odd that the GFCI didn't trip. I'd ask for an explanation but I'm starting to really feel dumb and inadequate here... Uh .. I work in software. :razz:

We also get reports on CSA testing and GFCI tested 91% operated properly, not testing by hitting the test and reset button. Testing them by simulating examples.

Where are the manufacturers sending the other 9%?