Plumbing, A few new Questions
 

I will start by saying, I have never plumbed a tank on my own and the one tank I had my brother help me with, I was not really paying attention:redface: Well he is not in town to help me right now, so I need help.

I just got a custom new tank from a member here. Its around 115G I guess...6'x20"deep and 18"tall. Nice and shallow. This is a FOWLR tank for my puffers. The tank is drilled in the bottom with 4-2" bulkheads. 2 Are going to be used for a closed loop and 2 for the overflow/return.

The closed loop is easy enough for me but I have no idea right now how exactly Im going to plumb the overflow/sump/return. I am going to use two rubbermaid containers for the sump and refugium, plumbed together.

So, Overflow situation...Im using the 2-2" bulkheads that are located in the back center of the tank. As I said, they are drilled in the bottom. What would you recommend? I was going to do a standard glass overflow (toothless) with a durso standpipe and then plumb the return back up through the other bulkhead to the top of the overflow and back into the tank. Only problem is, the tank is eurobraced...I would have to extend the overflow way out into the tank to be able to access inside it for maintenance because of the eurobrace overhang. Any other methods I could use to avoid this? I can't use a shorter overflow because the tank is already so shallow.

For a return pump, Im looking at buying a external reeflo pump. not sure which one yet though.

Here is a pic of the tank. Any advice would be awesome. I will have many more questions down the road but just need to get a design at least first!

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...h/DSC00425.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...C00431copy.jpg

Running somwhat similiar (2-2" overflows w/Dursos, 1" return, CL with 2" in, 4-1" out). My tank is eurobraced as well but just along the long length, no bracing on the sides and thats where my overflows are.

Can't tell fr your photos if your bracing on the sides but something to consider is put a the overflow tower on the end (from your picture, swap the CL and overflow placement).

Also for a return pump, since you are planning a CL, you can rely on that for circulation and scale back on the flow through the sump. With the CL providing the flow in the tank, really running any more gph than the skimmer can handle is just an extra.

Yes I agree I would have an acrylic over flow box built around your overflow drains. (I think OA can do this for you)

something to consider. The stand seems fairly low. you may find you have difficulty finding things hat can fit under it, Like a skimmer. I know you have invested a lot of time into the stand but I would raise it. It could also just be the perspective of the image.


As for sump/Fug I would baffle the refugium so that water from the overflow drains into the baffle then through the Fug then into the sump and returned to the tank. This will elliminate any bubbles returning to the main tank. Also you will not have to worry about the return pump sucking anything from the Fug into the display or clogging the return pump

J

Yeah the euro bracing is just running the length of the tank, not the width. I was originally going to use this tank as a room divider and have the overflow and return on the end (against the wall) but since I am not using it as a room divider anymore, I wanted to use the middle holes instead. I think I might save myself a lot of trouble by just using the end bulkheads as the overflow still. Only reason I dont like that, is I didnt want to see any plumbing from the sides of the tank (through the glass).

Do you have pictures of how your plumbing is set up?

Thanks.

The stand is fairly low at just a few inches over 2 feet. The thing that makes it look very low, is the tank. Because its only 18" tall. Makes the stand look even lower. I may raise it a bit though. The skimmer Im using is 2 feet with the collection cup, so not much room really.

I like your fuge/sump idea. I am using a external return pump which could be plumbed after the sump. I think that would be the best way to go. Have any of you ever plumbed rubbermaids together? I may just end up going with tanks...I have heard of people plumbing rubbermaids but never really seen it. Would it just be the same as plumbing (connecting) two glass tanks together.

So, I think to make life a bit easier, I will use the end holes for the overflow and return. I have a few more questions...Bare with me, these questions are probably stupid and simple but I have never done this before...

1. These are 2" bulkheads, what size PVC should I be plumbing the drain line with and will 2" bulkheads not be a bit much flow draining from a 115G tank? What about PVC size for building the standpipes? (I have never built them before). I have a whole bunch of 2" and 1.5" PVC that I would like to try to use if possible.

2. What is a better option than a durso standpipe? I have used them before and they were still a bit loud...maybe built wrong though?

3. I know acrylic does not bond to glass well at all. What do most of you do to solve this problem if you build an acrylic overflow? I guess its not really being used under pressure and the "suction" from the water flowing over it, may help keep it in place? Sorry if that sounds like a stupid question:redface:

4. What about painting the acrylic overflow? I would rather use the acrylic I have than buy black stuff. Are there any paints that are safe INSIDE the tank?

5. Same question are earlier, what about plumbing rubbermaid type containers together? How well does this work? I would need to connect them...

6. Whats the best spot in Vancouver to buy plumbing supplies? I have had a hard time finding any 2" bulkheads or anything for 2" PVC. I have a bunch of 2" PVC and would like to use it but can't find elbows, unions, valves, ect. in that size...only abs stuff.

I think I will draw a few of the plans up soon and that may help you guys help me:mrgreen:

Thanks for your help though!

you must alway build a stand pipe or Durso 1/4" bigger than the bulkhead. But you can get around this by building a 2 inch Durso and then after the bulk head redoes the PVC size to 1 1/2 (1 3/4 is hard to find)
Mine have always been dead silent. A lot depends on height or the Derso
Silicone made for Aquariums you can get large tubes of it at OA and hidden reef
I would just buy the black stuff
I've seen a lot of them. they work well. You just have to make sure the bulkhead is sealed well.
Terasen (but it's not called that anymore) on River Road behind Richmond Home Depot

Hope I've helped I'm sure you'll get more responses

J

Yes that helps. Im still a bit confused though about the standpipe thing. Do you mean, I can build it with 2" PVC and then after the bulkhead reduce down to 1 1/2" PVC for the rest of the return? I thought the durso always had to be bigger than the bulkhead for some reason...

Anyone also have a good link to a thread or site that really shows plumbing step by step? I know all plumbing if different but I really would like to see it done step by step. Even stuff like building the standpipes...I know they are simple but again, I have never done it.

comment about the Dursos.

I read as well that you should go up one size but my experience it's not required with the larger pipe size.

I'm running 2-2" threaded bulkhead with Dursos and they are both silent and I'm splitting probably 1000gph between them.

To make, just threaded a 2" TA into the bulkhead and built up from there staying with 2". The only mod I did was because of limited space in the overflow towers using 2", and since couldn't find a 2" street elbow, was to basically make one by cutting the 90 and Tee back before coupling.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h3...5/two_inch.jpg

Ok that helps, thanks. Is your overflow acrylic with black egg crate? That looks like how I might be doing mine.

Another thing Im wondering about, is my skimmer. Its a PM Bullet 2. I would prefer to have it in-line and not in the sump. Is this possible? I feel like an idiot asking but I have no idea??? If I did put it in-line, where "in-line" would you recommend and how is it done?

I know a lot of my questions are pretty basic but you guys are helping so much! I really want to get as much done this weekend as possible but have been really stuck:sad:

Always a good link http://www.melevsreef.com/links.html

The standpipe http://www.dursostandpipes.com/

Lots of pictures of plumbing , including CL http://www.oceansmotions.com/forum/v...87fe9e5e1657cf

And for options for standpipe, do a search here for Herbie, haven't actually seen or heard one but understand they're good.

my overflows are glass covered with 1/8" or thinner black acyclic sheet

I think I will go with glass too. Not too sure how acrylic will bond to glass long term...

Thanks for your help Mark.

Everyone here seems to really support the durso idea. I couldn't make a durso run absolutely silently, so I went a different way.

I use the "silent siphon". This method demands that your entire flow can go down one of your drain holes. You can test this by temporarily blocking one of the drain holes to verify the other can take the entire flow.

If that is the case, you put a gate valve on the one overflow and choke back the flow until it just starts to rise in the overflow box. As it rises up, it reaches an equilibrium steady state. You now have 100% of the flow going through that single drain with no air bubbles entering the drain. As there is no air entering, there is no sound. The drain pipe can exit underwater in the sump and there is no bubbling or splashing in the sump.

The 2nd drain is unusued. You put a standpipe on it so that if the 1st drain ever blocks, the 2nd drain will kick in and take the flow. That way, there's no risk of flood.

If you want to see it in operation, come by anytime. It is easier to understand if you see it working.

You and your wacky Ideas. LOL

J

I think I do understand actually. It makes sense. Plus I think that since my drains are both 2" and I do not want that much flow through my refugium and sump anyways, this could work for my set up. I think if my drains were smaller than 2" then it may not work as well. What size are your drains?

Thanks for the idea too.

GSP, the PM bullet 2 can run external, but I'm not sure about inline. I have the bullet 3 for my ceylons' 120g. The guy I purchased it from had the pump fed from a section of his sump that tank water overflowed into. The skimmed water would then drain into the return chamber to be pumped back up into the tank. His overflow gph was higher than the skimmer pump GPH so he did not have to worry about it running dry.

When I eventually hook up my skimmer, it will be in a recirculating fashion. My over flow will be less than half of the GPH of my skimmer pump, so my skimmer will drain into the same chamber as the pump intake.

Not sure if this makes sense. It's a little late and I'm lacked of sleep.

what you got there untamed is described as a Herbie

picture here

and Herbie's 31 page thread on RC

It makes a bit of sense but I still dont really get it:sad:

My overflow will definitely be more GPH than my skimmer pump (mak4). I am really just trying to figure out how to run it externally if not in-line. Basically, I do not want it in my sump.

Oh and I like the "herbie" !:mrgreen:

basically if you want your skimmer to run inline you need to have it above your sump, so that the water can fall back into the sump. A quiet way to do this would be to have it fall against a side of the sump or, down a sheet of glass. Or for a slick set up would be to have it plumbed into your rubbermaid sumps, making sure that the waterline in your sump is at the same level that you want your skimmer waterline to be. Basically since the skimmer is an 'open system' you cant have the skimmer sitting in the bottom of your cabinet and pump water up and over your sump, as it will cause the water in your skimmer to be too high, so you can raise up your skimmer, or lower your return into the sump.

So yes your skimmer can be run inline, but not in the same way that a pump could be.

Thanks, that helps alot. I kind of knew the return from the skimmer had to be above the water level in the sump but I was not sure. Only other question, is where and how would I put it "in line"?

As for the overflow, I think I will try the herbie style because I like the simplicity and the silence that most people seem to get. I will have to plumb my return over the back of the tank instead of back through the overflow (because you need both drains for the herbie method) but thats ok. I will use a Gate valve to restrict the flow instead of a ball valve. Anyways, I think its a great idea! I am though still wondering about what return pump to use for this method.

I had originally planned on using a Dart for the return but that may just be too much anyways. The drain is 2" (I forget how much GPH that is), so Im sure it could handle a Dart but maybe something smaller would be better? What do you guys think? I prefer an external pump for sure though. Oh I just realized that Darts can be throttled back too...Maybe thats the best idea then.

If you want your skimmer pump to be fed from the overflow pipe, your overflow GPH, and thus your return pump GPH must be higher than the mak 4 GPH (which is ~1100GPH). The excess water from the overflow would be tee-d off into the first chamber of your sump.

If you just want to have the skimmer fed from the sump, all you need to do is drill 2 holes in the sump. one for the skimmer pump and the other for the skimmmer drain.

Are you going to have a refugium?

Make a sketch of your plan in ms paint and we can work from there.

Thanks Spoot! No I do not want it fed from my overflow pipe. I just want it plumbed into one of the rubbermaids. Or I may plumb it between the first rubbermaid and the second which is the refugium. The refugium will be the bigger container. The first one is just for the overflow return and stuff like heaters. Although I may just end up using two containers the same size and then putting the skimmer IN the first one. Not sure yet.

I will draw up a few of the different plans and post them soon.

1st rough drawing of plans...Pick it apart!!!

Thanks.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...th/Design1.jpg

What size pump would you guys recommend for this? Do you think the Dart would be good or should I just go smaller?

Oh and the return is going to end up being over the back. For the "herbie" style overflow I need both bulkheads in the overflow box because one is used as an emergency drain.

Your plans for this tank is FOWLR correct? Have you selected a pump for the CL?

It looks like you've planned some sort of strainer over the intake of the primary Herbie drain. That will cause you minor irritation because as it blocks up with stuff, you'll be constantly adjusting the gate valve to compensate for the change in flow caused by the strainer.

You can try it and find out. Easy to remove it later.

I think going to use a Sequence Dart most likely for the closed loop, which means I may go with something smaller for the return, just to have less flow through the sump. Does that make sense? The Dart closed loop should give the tank enough flow I think...

Yeah I was going to because I did some research and keep seeing that done. How is yours? Im not set on doing that though. I think the main idea is to keep any small fish or snails, ect out of the plumbing but since this is a FOWLR with no snails, crabs or small fish (smallest is 4") I may not need it.

Not sure how the herbie works (haven't read up on it) But by the picture, it looks as though the overflow pipe for the herbie is only halfway up the tank. How high will it be in real life? If it is this low, you will have a lot of water draining into sump in the event of a power outage.

From the looks of your diagram, what you should do is just drill a hole in the sump for the skimmer pump. Then drill a hole in the refuge for the skimmer output. That would solve your problem.

Herbie works by using the gate valve to match the overflow gph to the return pump gph exactly. This then does not let air into the the plumbing and therefor is very quiet. To do this, the main drain needs to be a few inches underwater in the overflow. Or you can just use a strainer in the bottom, doesnt matter.

As for a power outage, I dont see how its much different than any overflow...It will drain until the water goes below the teeth of the overflow box and then water will stop flowing into the overflow and then can't possibly go into the sump anymore. So basically maybe an inch of water. Where the pipe is, doesnt make a difference.

Your idea for the skimmer is good. I may have to just put it in the sump though depending if I make my stand higher or not. If its not made higher, I would not be able to have the skimmer raised up so that the return feeds back down inot the refugium.

As untamed commented I would strain the overflow with a filter bag in the sump. Much easier to clean and will not effect the 'Herbie" (why isn't this called a Therlow)

Filter Bag

What would you use inside the overflow then?

Just slip it over the exit tube of the overflow. It's best to get 4 or 5 so as they get dirty your can through a bunch of them in the wash.

J

So do you mean I should have nothing inside the overflow over the bulkhead, just the filter sock in the sump?

Yup.

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the overflow box! You are ok then :D Is the second overflow plumbed into the sump as well then too? it wasn't connected to anything in the pic.

How big are you GSP's? My ceylons are 1.75" without tail, so I won't be attaching my skimmer/refug for a while.

Oh ok. I had thought about doing that when I was drawing up the plans but when I looked at other peoples "herbie" style overflows, they all had some kind of strainers in the overflow. I like the idea of having the strainer (filter sock) in the sump instead because that seems way easier. Thanks for the idea!

What about flow through the sump/refugium? I still want to use a Sequence Dart for the return pump and another Dart for the closed loop. I think that would give the tank enough flow. I would prefer not to have to use any powerheads.