Lighting Question
 

I am thinking of buying a workhorse 7 ballast, and I was wondering if it is better to use 2 110W compact flour. or 4 NO T8 flour. I would like to grow softies, LPS corals and an anenome. Which produces more light and which has a better colour? Which model (colour spectrum) of bulb do you recommend? Is Albrite the cheapest place to get this stuff?
Thanks
Steve

Lighting Question
 

two 96 watt PC's would have a lot more punch to them than 4 NO T8's. as for colour.. I like 10000K but the 6700K have a higher PAR value but are a little less white. I have found that J&L's is cheeper than Albrite for 96 watt PC tubes also. only 74.00 for a 96 wattt PC at J&L's when I was there friday, as I recalled Albrite wanted 81.00 (and it would take a while to come in.)

Hope that helps
Steve

Lighting Question
 

I would agree go with the PC's, they have way more output for the same wattage. By the way where are you getting the workhorse ballast from? I think i'm going to get one to overdrive my NO's.

Clinton

Lighting Question
 

Thanks for your input

If PC bulbs are $74 each and the workhorse 7 cost $56 then the total price would be $204.

The T8 NO bulbs are around $5. A 4 bulb setup would be $96.

If I buy 2 workhorse 7 ballasts and 8 NO bulbs (only $192), would this be brighter than 2 PC bubls?
Can I use 2 workhorse 7 ballasts to overdrive 4 NO T8 bulbs?

Is the colour of PCs better than NO's?

Lighting Question
 

Tigger, the $5.00 NO T8 bulbs are fairly yellow.. for a good colour that will make your stuff look pretty you are going to pay 20.00 and up / bulb. I use normal daylight bulbs on my fresh water planted tanks but only because there is so much green inside the tank you can't tell the difference between different colour temps. having said that.. that is all personal tast.. if you like the colour then go for it.. but now with NO bulbs you will not get the punch that a PC has, I get 160 PAR from two 96 watt PC's at a depth of 12", on my fresh water tank I am running 4 T8's and I don't even get 1/2 of that.

if you were to go to 8 bulbs you would be putting more light over the tank but not increasing the intensity (does that make sence to you?) another way to put it would be your amount of light would be more evenly spread but you would not have "more" light at one particular spot. it is hard to explain but lets say you had 4 bulbs on a 24 inch wide tank. lets say each bulb puts out 2000 lumen (normal for a real good T8) so all togeather if you add up your bulbs you have 8000lumen, but directly under any bulb you only have 2000. now as you penatrate into the water lets say that you are only running one bulbs and 12" below it you get a reading of 300 lumen, as you move to the side it drops off more as you get farther away from the center of the bulb, now you add more bulbs.. what yyou have done is spread the light not intensafied it.. now at 12" you still have the same 300 lumen but as you move sideways away from the bulb it stays at 300 lumen because you are geting light spread across the tank now instead of just on one side.

now that I have totaly messed you up does that help? it is much easyer to explain this in person that on the computer but I hope you can grasp what my rambling was intending to say :D

from a money point of view.. two workhorse 7's 120.00 and 8 T8 bulbs 30 to 40is.. and you have a yellowish tank with no actinics.. if you buy a mix of actinic and ultra daylight T'8's now you are at 160.00 for bulbs. 2 96 watt PC's and one workhourse ~200.00 I would go with the PC's and the workhorse 7 myself..

Steve

Lighting Question
 

Thanks Again :D

So let me know what you think of this. If I buy one workhorse 7 ballast and hook up 2 6500K 96W PC's and also run 2 4-foot NO attinics, would this be enough for Softies, LPS and Anenomes? What other things could this lighting support?

My tank is 6ft long, so I could put the 2 PC's in the middle across the tank and put one attinic on the front right and one attinic on the back left. (Are 96W PC's about 3 ft long?)

Would there be enough lights reaching the edges of the tank?

Where can I get the end caps for PC lights? Do you know how much they cost?

Steve

Lighting Question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am no expert on Anenomes, but from everything I haave read and from other peoples responces about them. If you are thinking of getting one then you should be looking at MH lighting.

as for the others.. well maby, it depends on a lot of other factors, how wide is your tank, how deep is it.. ect.. I myself (after I order two more PC's) will be running 4, 36" 96 watt PC's on a 3 foot long tank.

There are a fair amount of low light stuff you could keep, but you are severly limiting yourself. it might be better to go with 2 or 3 MH's and NO actinic IMO.

Steve

Lighting Question
 

Hi,

I run normal daylights and actinics. It is true that the water gets rather yellow over time, but I just add some carbon to the water for a couple days to get rid of the yellow.

The usualy mix between actinics and 6500K is about 50/50. For every actinic, you have a 6500K. In most cases, this will work and the colour is rather pleasing.

So, T8s aren't out of the question. They are still cheaper by a fair margin.

BTW WH7 with T8s...is overdriven by default (2x).

- Victor.

[ 28 April 2002, 23:22: Message edited by: reefburnaby ]

Lighting Question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">100% agree mix daylight with philips actinic will by top nuch

Lighting Question
 

I guess the question is whether or not 4 T8's (overdriven x2) have the same outut (PAR) as 2 96W PC lamps? My guess would be no. IMO the extra money spent on the 2 PC lamps ($132) over the T8 lamps ($??) would be worth the increase in light output, rather than the better coverage of the 4 T8 lamps. (This is entirely based on the assumption that 2 96W 6700K PC lamps have a higher PAR value than 4 6500K T8 lamps overdriven x2)

With that in mind I think your plans to add 2 96W PC 6700K lamps with a pair of 48" 40W NO actinics would certainly give you an increase in intensity, nice coloration, as well as good coverage of your tank for a relatively low cost (less than $200).

Steve (StirCrazy), I don't think the suggestion of going to "2 or 3 MH's" is even a valid one here as it seems obvious to me that Steve (Tigger) is looking for a relatively inexpensive upgrade to his lighting. MH would be at least a $600 option for just two ballasts and two lamps and that would not even be nominal considering he has a 6' tank to light. Seems to me that Steve (Tigger) is looking to stay in the $200 ballpark here (ballast + lamps)

With the aforementioned combo of 2x96W 6700K PC lamps with 2x40W NO Actinics you would be able to keep pretty much any softie, mushroom or polyp, and most LPS corals. You wouldn't be "severely limiting yourself" to anything except most SPS corals and clams. You could easily keep a T. Derasa clam though under that lighting. As for an Anemone again I see no problems under that lighting, providing you are supplementally feeding it and keeping good stable water parameters.

So it seems the thing that needs to be answered here is which provides more light (total PAR) 2x96W 6700K PC lamps or 4x32W 6500K T8 lamps overdriven x2?

Lighting Question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Victor, how is 4 T8 bulbs on a WH 7 overdriven? I could see if you were only using 2 bulbs and doubling up on the wires, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't using one wire for bulbs is the normal NO configuration?

Andrew, the MH sugestion was based on the desire to have an Anemone I have read that article that feeding is more imortant than light, but the fact remains that it seams the most sucessfull people with Anemone all sugest the most important factor is the lighting.

Having said that, Tigger the other way to do it is like I am.. go with your NO bulbs on the workhorse 7, if you find they are not enuf then buy a couple 96 watt PC's ( if you go with two WH7's you could start off with 4 NO T8 daylight bulbs and 4 actinic if this isn't enuf then switch the 4 day light bulbs to the two 96 watt 6700K PC's. And then IF you decide you want to get the big light idems you could add MH bulbs one at a time as you can aford it.

what I am doing is simular as I am starting off with PC's and NO's then adding the MH when my tank is ready for creatures that require the high light.

Lighting Question
 

Hi,

T8s overdriven by default with WH7...suprised nobody ask why T8s don't show up on the list of lamps that are usually driven by WH7. If you really want NO, then WH5. Here's the scope....WH7 is design to drive 4 T12s roughly 430-500mA of lamp current. T8s are design to run with 230ish mA. So...you'll be pumping in a bit more current than usual. Effectively, the WH7 thinks it is driving a long T12 (8 foot).

So yah...PCs or T8s ? Well....kind of up to you. It is impossible to tell since it comes down to setup and light reflector design. As long as your tank doesn't look like Big Al's...where mushrooms bleach due to lack of light...you'll be fine.

- Victor.

Lighting Question
 

Is it true that NO (even over driven 2X) won't have enough intensity to provide enough Lummens at the bottom of the tank? Let me know if I understand the properly. If I overdrive the 4 NO lights 2X then it would be like having 8 NO's instead of 4 NO. But according to StirCrazy, 4 NO's are not even half as intense as 2 96W PCs. Assuming Stircrazy was not overdriving his lights, then even if I overdrive them (double the PAR, I think?), it will still not have a PAR Value as high as 2 96W PCs. Is this correct?

StirCrazy - are your T8's on a workhorse 7 Ballast?

Do others believe I should have no troubles keeping softies, LPS and Sea Anenomes (BTA or Seabae) with 2 96W 65000K PCs and 2 48" NO attinics? What do you think about using 4 48" 65000K NO (overdriven 2X) and 2 48" NO attinics? Would this be just as good? By the way my tank is about 20" high with about a 4 inch sandbed.

One more question: Does anybody know a good place to get end caps for PC lighting? Are they about the same price as the end caps for NO lighting?

Lighting Question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True. But it depends on the depth of your tank. If it was a 12" deep tank I'd have no worries putting softies or mushrooms. maybe an LPS. NO anemone or SPS tho unless they were at or near the surface. NO's don't provide enough illumination for SPS or even some LPS to grow. Survive? Yes, barely IMO IME. Most corals and anemones need a lot of light. If they don't get it they will die.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not necessarily. It depends on how much current each wire is pushing into the lamp. If you take a 120W ballast and hook it all up into one lamp your output will go up. It all depends on the ballast. Even then it doesn't go up as a factor of x2, x3, x4.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Before we can answer what you wil be able to keep it is more important to know how deep your tank is. As light decay is an exponential decay in water with NO, PC or VHO you lose 66% of the power coming out of the tube in the first few inches of the water. MH goes deeper as it is a point source with a much higher intensity.

I'd share the numbers I have but I have had some problems with my puter and can't access my NTFS drives right now.

IMO NO(even overdriven) will not be sufficient to light deeper than say 10 inches. If you want a creature that requires intense light.

If you are looking at an anemone(which I don't suggest with a coral tank as it WILL wander and sting anything it touches) don't go with a seabae. Difficult to keep. Get a Very healthy BTA. And by healthy get one that is a dark or medium brown color. White means bleached, bleached means near death as it no longer has its zooxanthellae. If you get a white anemone you will need to feed it. Daily. An anemone with its zoox doesn't need daily feedings. I had a saddleback that I rarely fed. And it grew and grew and grew. With proper lighting. LOTS of lighting.

Lighting Question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I never said you couldent have enuf intensity for shrooms and stuff at the bottom but the question was which would give you more.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">no not realy.. the intensity of light is not a linier factor, so a two fold increase in power doesn't mean you will get a two fold increas in intensity. when I ran my original tests for overdriving I only had a lumen meter. I am planning on redoing the tests using a par meter also to get the #'s for the increase in usable light. I will do thease hopefully in about a week as I am flying back to alberta wensday for a funeral.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">hmm not quite. what I was saying is that one NO is not as intense as 1 PC, by adding more bulbs you do not increas the intensity but rather the amount of light. so lets say your coverage will be better with 4 bulbs as aposed to 2 PC's but the PC's will still be more intense.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have tested valuse at normal power and while overdriven for lumin output. as stated above I will do a PAR test to see how that increases with power increase.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mine are on a electronic T8 ballast, I am going to buy a workhorse 7 to run another set of PC's so I will compare this ballast to other electronic ones I have also.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">J&L has the endcaps.. if my memory serves me right they were about 7.00 each..

Ok to give you a example of the different intensity levels of a NO bulb compared to a 96 watt PC.
1x on the NO tube resulted in 139.23 LUX @ 12"
2x on the NO tube resulted in 203.49 LUX @ 12"
3x on the NO tube resulted in 267.75 LUX @ 12"

a 96 watt PC resulted in 4391.10 LUX @ 12"

I am going to redo thease tests using a PAR meter but as you can see in light output it took 3 leads to get twice the power.. just hooking up 2 sets of leads doesen't mean you have twice the power.

I myself was going to run all overdriven bulbs onmy tank but I decided to rethink a few of my ideas and decided that I would only unes the overdriven bulbs for actinic. nothing wrong with using them for main lighting I think Victor is doing quite well from his reports, I just felt it limited me to much after I did my tests. if you are on a tight budget.. by all means go with the overdriven.. then when you can aford to spend more.. you can look at going to PC's if YOU decide you need them. the great thing about a WH7 is it will run both so only tubes need to be changed.

Steve

Lighting Question
 

Would VHO lighting be a better choice than PC lighting?

What kind of ballast do I need? Will a WH7 work?

Lighting Question
 

Hi,

I guess you have a choice Tigger. You can get a okay setup with some overdrive or PCs. Maybe the tubes will cost a bit with PCs, but it should work for your softies and LPS.

OR save up some cash and wait for some good used deals for a MH/MV/HQI setup. Sounds like you are in this hobby for the long haul, why not get a good setup and forget about having enough light.

Overdriving is good for those who want to get in to reefing with a minmal cost. Its like an Icecap, but half/quarter the price. PCs are good too, but at the current prices for PCS...why not get a MH instead.

- Victor.

Lighting Question
 

Hi,

VHOs are still popular because the the URI actinics. They are one of the best. Once you have one...you'll wonder why people are still use 03s. For the most part, VHOs are a pain and not very efficient. Expensive ballasts. VHO lifetime problems. Mind as well go with overdrive and use cheaper bulbs.

- Victor.

Lighting Question
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What are you basing this on Victor? Have you run the two of 'em yourself?

I have been running URI's for the last 6 months and will be going back to the 03's. Cheaper and are just as good. On an Icecap they are a slight bit dimmer than URI's and that is it. Such a negligable difference that the extra cost is not worth it. IMO IME.

[ 30 April 2002, 10:02: Message edited by: DJ88 ]

Lighting Question
 

Hi,

I have used the URI super-actinics before. I prefer them since they have more purple in colour rather than 03s. I guess it is a personal preference. Keep in mind that I use 6500K tubes and they tend to be a little bit yellower than Iwasaki MVs. Tubes tend to produce less purple than MVs/MHs. Maybe that's why I see a dramatic difference.

However, I have switch to regular 03s due to cost.

- Victor.

Lighting Question
 

Oh ok. It's the pruple I don't like. lol. Prefer the blue of the 03's with my Iwasaki.