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Overdriving lights.
Well I did a pre wire on my 03/actinic NO bulbs and ballast to check its operation, and against better judgment I decided to use my expensive bulbs for a over drive comparasen.. I am glad i did as the blues show the difference in intensity better.
first the data, I am using a GE Electronic B340R120HP PC#80156 3 lamp rapid start ballast and 2 philips 03/actinic 36" bulbs. the first picture is the two light beiong drivin normaly (this was just a functional test) http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/bothNO1xEa.jpg the next 3 are the pics of the one bulb over driven and the other bulb normal so you get a side by side comparasen far shot http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/01top2xbottom1x.jpg a closeup http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/02top2xbottom1x.jpg and a end view http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/03top2xbottom1x.jpg and finaly the end cap arangement used to over drive compared to the normal one http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/endcapoverdriven.jpg I only ran it for about 30 min and the over driven was a bit hoter than the other but it was hardly noticable. Steve [ 19 May 2002, 15:41: Message edited by: StirCrazy ] |
Overdriving lights.
Ok I bought a new multimeter (my old one was a joke and wouldent do curent.) and I found a light meter for 30.00 it measures foot-candles but there should be a conversion to lumin somewhare I just have to find it. we tested a 96watt PC quad light (smart light) and it put out 1300 foot-candles at a distance of 12" on a ice cap lit 4X 110 watt bulbs the result was 750 to 800 foot-candles at a distance of 12" so it will be interesting to see what my over driving project does in both power and light output . this I will do tomorrow morning
Steve |
Overdriving lights.
Wow.. looks good. we may have to get together on this thing I want to do Steve.. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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Overdriving lights.
I found it 1 lumens/squar foot = 1 foot candle
Steve |
Overdriving lights.
Hi,
10.76 lux = 1 footcandle Pretty cool... As a reference...my lighting is (OVRNO @ 80W X 2) At the surface, 16000 to 20000 lux. (5" away) At middle of tank, 7000 lux. (17" away) At bottom of the tank. 4500 lux. (24" away) And...the commonly accepted lighting for reef is 3000 lux for general purpose and 7000 lux for SPS. - Victor. |
Overdriving lights.
cool thanks Victor, oh did I mention.. I love radio shack LOL, oh by the way.. how did you get the measurments for under water? is your meter water proof?
oh a other qustion comes up from reading the package on a bulb I have.. it is a 20 watt 2' T8 power glow. well the box says 1100 lumens, 80 lux, 18000K so from what I have seen on normal packages lumens is always higher than lux, so if 1 foot candle = 1 lumens how can 1 foot candle = 10.something Lux ? Steve [ 05 December 2001: Message edited by: StirCrazy ] |
Overdriving lights.
Hi,
Well. I sort of cheated...I assumed the water would block off 10% of the light and measured it in air. if 1 Candlefoot = 1 lumen per foot^2. 1 lux = 1 lumen per meter ^2. and 1 meter = 3.28 feet 1 meter^2 = 10.76 feet^2 So 1 Candlefoot = 10.76 lux. QED - Victor. |
Overdriving lights.
ok your making me get out a pen and paper LOL sorry it just doesent look right to me.
Never mind you were right.. sorry .. had to working it out.. I hate it when conversions don't look right hehe [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Steve [ 05 December 2001: Message edited by: StirCrazy ] |
Overdriving lights.
Very nice...glad it worked out for you !
- Victor. |
Overdriving lights.
Ok now that I am complete my testing for this balast and lights here are the results. First to mention the equipment I am using again 1, GE Electronic
B340R120HP PC#80156 3 lamp rapid start ballast and 1 philips 03/actinic 36" bulb. to record this info I am using a new radioshack digital auto range multimeter, and a GE light meter. first, the test setup looks like this http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/testSetup.jpg I took initial reading and then again took readings after 25 minuits of the set up running and having a chance to settle out. here is the first test runing the bulb at normal power. the inital current was 0.330 amps (39.6 watts)and it climbed to 0.332, (39.84 watts)not a significant change so I only recorded the start curent, the ballast was cold after this test and the bulb was warm. http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/current1x.jpg the light output remained constant at 13 foot candles @ 12" and 190 foot candles at the bulb surface http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/lightoutput1x.jpg for the second set I used 2 sets of leads to the power side of the bulb. the inital current was 0.460 amps (55.2 watts) and the final curent droped to 0.455 amps (54.6 watts), the balast was 84 degrees F and the bulb was warm (about the same as test 1). http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/current2x.jpg the light output remained constant at 19 foot candles @ 12" and 320 foot candles at the bulb surface http://members.home.shaw.ca/stircrazy/lightoutput2x.jpg Steve [ 19 May 2002, 15:46: Message edited by: StirCrazy ] |
Overdriving lights.
for the 3x test I wired up the power endcap like this
http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/wiringFor3xTest.jpg The curent rose from ainital 0.524 amps (62.88 watts) to a final of 0.549 amps (65.88 watts), the ballast rose to a tempature of 89 degrees F, and the bulb was still only warm ( I could have held my hand on it all day) http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/current3x.jpg the light output also increased over the 25 minuits from a start of 23 foot candles @ 12" and 400 foot candles at the bulb surface, to 25 foot candles @ 12" and 420 foot candles at the bulb surface. http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/lightoutput3x.jpg ok now the best for last.. I took a overview picture for each test and I will put them in order of the tests one on top of each other so you can see the difference. http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/test1xoverview.jpg http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/test2xoverview.jpg http://members.shaw.ca/stircrazy/test3xoverview.jpg well there is that test, I will be doing it on my 96 watt PC bulbs also to compare there out put and I am thinking I will get a 5900K daylight bulb and try it also (actinic light shows up as a lower output on normal light meters so that is why the numbers for the foot candles look low for a 30 watt bulb. I ment the nubers as a comparason factor not the actual out put of the bulb) Steve [ 19 May 2002, 15:47: Message edited by: StirCrazy ] |
Overdriving lights.
victor
is 10% loss through the water column reaonable? what i remember from physics is an inverse exponential relationship with depth...just curius. |
Overdriving lights.
do you know whare there are 2 400's running
Shane? I am not doing anything tomorrow I could go measure them.. Steve |
Overdriving lights.
Reefmaster,
10% loss is due to particulate matter in the water and diffraction loss at the interface between water and air. The 1/distance relation is already taken account with the light meter (the measurements were done in air). Steve, Looks really good. I don't know how accurate your light meter is...but it seems that you can generate more light as you overdrive (lumens/watt or lux/watt). But...it sort of makes sense.... Have fun with your new lights [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Hmm...maybe I should get one of those meters. - Victor. |
Overdriving lights.
I'm sitting here looking at these light threads about diy overdrives and can't help but wonder if you guys are at all concerned about burning down your house? Water and electricity is already a concurn now you start messing with it. Go ahead but I have a hard enough time going away on weekends and worry about stuff never mind playing around with electricity.Murphy's Law is alive and well in this hobby. I have spent plenty money in this hobby and made many diy projects and at the end of the day 9 times out of 10 ended up buying something professionally made with warranties and all that wasted diy money ends up in a rubbermaid box You end up spending more money tring to save money Just my thought Jamie
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Overdriving lights.
hehe ya I thought about it for a second or two [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] , but seriously I was drawing just over 1/2 a amp through that ballast.. it is designed for almost 1 amp.. so I was in no danger of overloading the ballast. as for the light... the worst that would happen at that power is it would burn out. I could see if I was talking about hooking up 440v to it.. hmmm what do you think Victor? 440v 3 phase? [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]
Steve |
Overdriving lights.
Hi,
You mean 220V 3 phase ? I don't think they have 440V...they have 347V, 600V and 3KV...but I haven't heard of a 440V 3 phase. Must be a new electrical format on the island (just kidding !) DIY...are we crazy ? Well, I could buy several Icecaps...and I would not have any problems doing that. But I definitely would not have as much fun as I am having now [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] As Steve said, we are really running 50% to 60% of the ballast's maximum output. Fulham (workhorse) makes ballasts that are specifically design to run in this fashion...I get 5 years warranty and save money (and overdrive at the same time). To be honest, I am more comformable with running a reef with fluorescent tubes than with HID (MV, MH, HQI and etc). HID dissipates a large amount of heat (so much that some may require fans), draws tremendous amount of power (250W MH draw 3A each), and they are extremely dangerous if you splash water on them or have them fail due to fractures in protective quartz. HIDs weren't quite design to operate in enclosed spaces like a reefs. That's just my personal opinion [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Jamie, 9 times out of 10 ... I have seen your tank and your DIY stand/hood - it looks really good. How about that DIY second stage for your calcium reactor ? All those look pretty good DIY to me. DIY is not for everybody....we just want to tell people it is possible to get a nice reef running for less. - Victor. |
Overdriving lights.
hehe 440 3 phase is what our generators produce on the ship. from there we split it 440 and 220, then the 220 we split down for our 120.. some of the bigger electric motors on the ship have starting curents of 600 amps on 440 volt 3 phase [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Steve |
Overdriving lights.
enjoy your projects [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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Overdriving lights.
Hi,
Oh...I didn't know that.... I am more familiar with the 120/240/347/600 stuff. I guess there are lots of other different ones too...thanks. - Victor. |
Overdriving lights.
steve our tank has dual 400 MH and a few 4' NO's. i'd be really interested in seeing the output. email me if you have a chance to check it out cuz i'm really curiuos how these suckers stack up against your guys black magic lighting projects here. shane
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Overdriving lights.
Ok out of curosity I flashed up my 36" 96 watt PC's and measured the light only on them
my 10000K was putting out 410 foot candles @ 12"(4413 lux) and 5100 foot candles at the surface (54896 lux). the 6500K was putting out 375 footcandles @ 12" (4036 lux)and 4600 at the surface (49514 lux). with both bulbs running I took a measurment at 12" and I got 630 foot candle @ 12" or (6781 lux) I am going to be taking my light meter out with me so when i stop by stores and such I willl try to get a reading off there lights. Steve |
Overdriving lights.
if you're out and about with your magic light reader i'd be interested in our numbers from two 400w MH. just a thought... shane
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Overdriving lights.
mmmm.. 440 3 phase.. miss it.. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
Watched my smart a$$ boss try and show us youngins how it is done and change a fuse(120v) on one part of an equipment rack without isolating BOTH power sources. The 440 threw him 8 feet [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]. We figure all the grease and slime from not showering for a week saved him. He also tried to re-write the laws of physics and electricity one day.. [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] moron.. He left all the fuse changing to us youngins after that. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] |
Overdriving lights.
Hi,
We could take a light meter and wrap it with a clear water proof bag. What do you think of that ? - Victor. |
Overdriving lights.
hehe then how much does the bag reduce the light. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
ok I had the opertunity to test a VHO actinic bulb run by a ice cap 660 ballast today. at the bulb the output was 650 footcandles @ the surface on a fairly new 110 watt bulb, by comparason a 96 watt PC at the same place was almost 6000 footcandles @ the surface. Steve [ 07 December 2001: Message edited by: StirCrazy ] |
Overdriving lights.
Hi,
We can measure the difference between with and without a bag in air. Future measurements with bag can be calibrated out. BTW, were those URI Actinic VHOs ? - Victor. [ 07 December 2001: Message edited by: reefburnaby ] |
Overdriving lights.
true.. to simple actualy just compare them at the distancethat you will be using in the tank...
Steve |
Overdriving lights.
Can't wait to overdive my 2 NO lights on my Refugium. They are not giving me the growth I need. And this is much better than taking my nice PC box apart and using those lights.
So has anyone been thinking of doing a test to compensate for the water. Take an empty tank, no DSB and measure from the bottom glass with lights on the top of the tank. Yes you loose some from the bottom glass, but how much? Maybe this would be more representative, at minimum this give a worst case number. What do you all think? Lee |
Overdriving lights.
Hello All,
Interesting thread. Nice to see the work/results of us trying to get ever more factful on the equipment we purchase. I wonder when we could do the same on protein skimmers and calcium reactor. um...... Anyway. I do have one major concern. While all these numbers are possibly useful when comparing the same bulb driven by the same ballast with different overdrive level, I don't know how well the test data can be used to compare different bulbs with different ballast. Just like measuring radio signal's energy, we need to have available a receiver with a wide enough band to capture all of the signal's energy. Best thing is to be able to hook up a spectrum analyzer and have the machine show us the power response and total power. However, even at a low 300nm wavelength for blue light, the frequency is at 1tHz. To my knowledge, no spectrum analyzer operate at that high of a frequency. Unless we have access to a light spectrometer somehow, we still are a step behind from being truly factful. Just a thought. Titus |
Overdriving lights.
Titus, that I have talked about by use of a PAR meter.. it measurs light waves from 350nm to 700 nm (photosynthic light range. which is the real importance in a reef) so with this you can compare any bulb to any ballast. if you look at the Post I made last night to Darren I have found instructions on making your own, and also a company in edmonton who sells then .. as I will be in edmonton over the christmas season I will check that out to see how much they are.
Steve |
Overdriving lights.
Hello Steve,
Maybe you can post a price on the board to let us know how much it is when you are in Edmonton. Are you going to check out the fellow reefers in Edmonton? I have no idea of what's the story over there but the LFS don't keep too much stock over there. Titus |
Overdriving lights.
hmm well I think Edmonton is going to be a whirl wind tour, I am leaving here on the 19th getting there on the 20th.. I have to be in a different town for the 22nd (my grammas) then back to leduc for christmas.. hmm maby I should just stay home LOL. but ya I was thinking of checking out a few fish stores while I was there.. any one know of good ones in Edmonton?
Steve |
Overdriving lights.
Titus,
What would the spectrum of the lighting system tell us ? I thought what matters most is the intensity that a coral receives or lux. Isn't PAR calibrated for green leafy plants...but not for corals ? - Victor. |
Overdriving lights.
Hello Steve,
There aren't many LFS in Edmonton. There is one in West Ed Mall but it's pretty lame. They are mostly into dog stuff. Then there is one very close to the old garrison (Griesebach, I call it greese ball lol) and they have the most saltwater fish. It's in a guy's basement but it's much bigger than J&L. And then there's this one called Aquarium Illusion (the best one I found) and make sure you check their custom tank photo catalogue. But even with these people, they have pretty basic system for salt water customers as well unfortunately. Victor, The spectrum analysis tells us a number of things. First we can tell if spectrum shifts occurs over time, or with overdrive, electronic vs tar ballast, etc. Second, we can tell what type of light the bulb is producing. This is good for running a correlation of spectrum response vs corals' health and build a good database. Third, it's a good way to integrate for power. Titus |
Overdriving lights.
the Algae in the corals use the same wave length as plants (and a bit lower) plants the usefull is about 420 to 680nm the PAR meter I am interested in is from 350nm to 700nm, but from what I have been reading, the PAR used by corals mostly is the 350 to 450 range, but that is only deep water coarls.. shallow water coarls will probably still use the full PAR range as they get full light at the shallow depths not filtered to the degree that most people simulate in there tanks. but it does look cooler [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] . So far everthing I read say PAR is the most important measurment of light on a reef and it is also a measurment that holds true no mater which bulb or ballast or how much power you are trying to put through the light.
Steve |
Overdriving lights.
Hello Steve,
I know what you mean. But the PAR meter only tells you the total energy of all light within the 300 - 700nm range. It doesn't give any clue to the spectral shape/distribution of energy "within" this band. It is important for corals and the most meaningful, as compared to simple lux measurement, due to the meter's sensitivity to the range of light that algae responds to. But as we know, different corals require different spectral shapes. It is best if we can somehow qualitatively log down the correlation between coral growth vs type of light (ie spectral shape). And I'd have to disagree with the constant spectral shape for different driving intensity part. Everything in this world is non-linear. I have a gut feeling that spectral shape changes as the bulb is subjected to different driving method/intensity. Titus |
Overdriving lights.
Yes I agree with you Titus on different power shifts the spectral band, but to my knolage (and I may be wrong)from 6 years of planted fresh tanks and everything ihave read in the last year on reef tanks (ya a year is how long I have been planning things so far, call me obsessive) but the spectrum only shows you the peeks in each light color so you can tell if you are getting a output in the 350 to 450nm range. now what you say about as the bulbs burn out the spectrum shifts but this gos to exactly what I was saying as it shifts it shift higher (fro a actinic as the coating that breaks down is what makes the lower wave lengths) so now instead of a large 350 to 450nm (PAR) it is reduces as the majority of the light has switched to a 400 to 700nm range. this is why the corals will not do as good as they are adapted to the lower end of the PAR range. but if you take your old bulbs the house plants would love them [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Also there is a difference between diferent corals and there requirments, deep watter coarls need the lower end of the par whare shallow water coarls will probably need the higher end of the par range, but take for example people that are running 10000K MH and that is it.. they have no Actinic addition but the PAR from the MH is so intence it supplies everything the need.
as for the linerarity I total agree.. but with one exception.. out put will be liner up to a point then it will go not linier (thins happens for lots of stuff in nature but while we are on this if the color changes when overdriving then in the same token it should change when underdriving so using VHO bulbs on IceCap might not be the corect spectrum the bulb was designed for either.. and when running them with NO bulbs you are over driving so the spectrum couls be changed again.. unless it is liner to a point then it starts to drift. so who knows.. I can get a PAR sensor for under 200.00 and a light meter for 30.00 but a spectrum analizer is big bucks so I can't aford that.. but I will talk toa few people who are in university and see if they have one and can rund a coupld tests for me.. who knows maby they do and will.. Steve |
Overdriving lights.
Hello Steve,
Yeah it would be most interesting to see how the spectrum change as the bulbs are subjected to different driving means. So it'd be awesome if we can have the bulbs tested by someone.... somehow. Titus |
Overdriving lights.
Hey, Don't look at me. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] I have enough to do.. lol
kidding It would be neat to see tho.. It seems we have opened a huge can o worms on this board with this lighting topic.. |
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