Looking for feedback, Vodka / Carbon Dosing, Big Tank, Big Nitrates
 

I am taking a run at resurrecting for tank.
It has been running for 4 years, and is an upgrade from a previous 180 gallon.
It has basic corals mushrooms polyps, leather and a larger fish population, with a few show fish.

The tank is 270 Gallons, and sump volume is about 100 gallons (actual water volume) The sump contains a refegium section that I grow Caulerpa in.

I am testing with a red sea kit, and have to dilute the samples to get an ish range, currently testing between 250 and 300 ppm of Nitrate.
The nitrate has been a problem since the move from the 180 gallon tank, and subsequent power outages that wreaked havoc on my tank.

I had started this process a year and a half ago, but got pulled away by work and wasn't able to continue the vodka dosing on a daily basis.
The last time around I followed the recommended process of 0.1ml / 25 gal for 1-3 days, then 0.2ml / 25 gal for 4-7 days then increased 0.5ml per week after that (0.5 total)
Last time I took the Nitrates from >300ppm to 120 ppm but it took about 6 months combined with 50 gallons water changes 2-3 times per month.
I had seen some theories that the nitrates will saturate the rock and sand, and at levels like this, there will be a slow decline, because nitrates are released from the rock and sand as it is removed from the water.

I would like to take a more aggressive approach with the vodka dosing, but I have read alot of cautionary advice against this. I do not think it is unreasonable between the system volume and the level of nitrates,

Due to COVID I will have time on my hands this year to monitor closely and keep the daily dosing consistent.

Hope to find someone on this forum that has experience, that may be able to weigh in on reasonable dosing increases for the vodka.

TIA

following because I was always intrigued with this process.

Well, I do not have experience with this process.
However I came across this video which, to me, explains this process well.

https://www.facebook.com/REEF2REEF/v...54105568809806

That is a great video, very much to the point,

Makes a good pitch to use vinegar rather than vodka, and it would be easier to control precisely with a dosing pump,

They are not so discreet about dosing volumes either, suggesting a larger starting dosage, and larger weekly increases.

There is a good disclaimer on making sure the phosphates are in range, for the appropriate bacteria consumption rate between nitrates and phosphates.

Whats your phosphate

I have been dosing vodka in my 25 gallon tank since February. Before vodka dosing my nitrates were around 40ppm and phosphates around 0.084. As of last week nitrates were 1.5ppm and phosphates 0.009ppm.


I followed the same 0.1ml / 25 gal for 1-3 days, then 0.2ml / 25 gal for 4-7 days then increased 0.5ml per week after that. My largest dose was 1.2ml which I kept up for 2 weeks.


While vodka dosing I have also cut back on the amount I was feeding, tried to feed more pellets instead of always frozen. Also did large weekly water changes where I vacuumed the sand and turkey basted the rocks.


I also double checked my water supply to make sure it was nitrate and phosphate free.


I found it took awhile for things to start to drop, but once it started I would notice a significant drop each week when I was testing. It took about 1 month for me to start seeing a drop. So it's not surprising it's taking awhile to drop in your tank.



If you stick with it it should start working! Good luck.

Thanks for the feedback so far!

Phosphate is at 5 ppm, tested with Red Sea Pro Kit,
I used a 1 ml tank water to 16 ml RO/DI water ratio and extrapolated the base 0.36 reading to 0.36 / (1/17) = 6.12

I tested the RO/DI water with no dilution and got a reading 0.08ppm.
To adjust my reading above, 0.08 / (1/17) = 1.36
(there may have been some contamination as I tested the tank water first, but I think this value is correct, my RO Membranes are 3 months overdue on changing)

Also of note on the Nitrates, I had tested the RO/DI water and got a value at or near 0, I was on the fence whether it could be called a 0 or 0.25 on the Red Sea Pro test kit.

I do strongly believe that the dosing works, as I had started with the process once previously.

You are correct that my water supply is not perfect but it is not bad in comparison to the tank parameters, and I have seen the water supply quickly correct when the RO filters are changed after a year of use. It is on the list to correct before driving substantial water changes again.

I intended to turn the tides on the nitrate and wait till it starts dropping before adding larger water changes, currently 50 gallon every 2 month, and will move to 50 gallons 4 times or more per month.


Llorgon, my initial post was specifically directed towards your experience and that it is generally accepted in the hobby to increase the vodka dose by 0.5ml per week on a 25 gallon tank, (after the initial week)

I am specifically asking if there is a reason this limit is set regardless of size of tank. (of 0.5ml per week)

On a 25 gallon tank you would have Day 1-3 @ 0.1ml, Day 4-7 @ 0.2ml, Week 2 @ 0.7 ml, Week 3 @ 1.2ml
From week 1 to week 2, the dose increase is over 2 times the week 1 dose, and even as a percentage from week 2 to week 3, the increase is 70%

For my system on this scale I am using 300 gallon system volume. Day 1-3 @ 1.2ml, Day 4-7 @ 2.4ml, Week 2 @ 2.9ml, Week 3 @ 3.4ml
From week 1 to week 2, the dose increase is almost 1/5 of my week 1 dose, and from week 2 to week 3, the increase is 17%


Based on my research the last 2 weeks, I am genuinely considering the following dosing,
Day 1-3 @ 1.2 ml
Day 4-7 @ 2.4 ml
Every 4 Days, Increase the Dose by 1.2 ml
(Or increase by 1 ml increments for ease of adjustments and a little bit of conservatism)

I understand that this is not endorsed by any reputable articles that I have seen, and wanted to see if anyone might disclose when they went to fast ( i have seen a few of those disclosures but never the details)

My Tank is 28 x 28 x 84 (inches), with 2 beveled corners (maybe 10 gallons lost) and the sump is 72 x 24 x 19, with a nominal water level of about 12 inches.

If nothing else I can let you guys know how it goes!
Still on the fence on risk, and not expecting anyone to say jump in, but hoping to hear the experiences like yours Llorgen, Thanks!

Unfortunately I'm not experienced enough to say what would happen if you added more than the recommended dosage. Im interested as well though!

Here are the two articles I was reading before starting vodka dosing.

https://www.melevsreef.com/articles/dosing-vodka-why

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

The guy in the first article has a similar size tank to yours, I think he said 280g. And it took about 7 months to see a drop. It seems like he did use some nitrate and phosphate removers during dosing. So maybe vodka, water changes and nitrate/phosphate removers would help. Although it could be risky if things drop too fast and too much.

The second is a guide with the standard dosing instructions. Near the bottom of the article it gives some examples of some adverse effects of to much carbon dosing. Sounds like some fish can be sensitive and you can get bacteria blooms.

Overall it dose kind of seem like do a dose, monitor and be ready to correct the tank if needed.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

I am not sure if I missed it or not but do you have uncontrolled algae growth or cyano growth in your tank?

I use Red Sea NoPox daily. My 250 had issues with nitrates and phosphates for years. It took 6 months at dosing at the recommended amount to get my numbers down to 'normal' ranges. I still have to dose daily.



Only thing I didn't like at first was cloudy water, which makes sense since it is a binding agent so it would precipitate out of the water and clog the filter socks pretty quickly.


I was up to 35ml / day at my levels initially, now I am down to 10 ml / day to maintain. Works wonders really.


Vodka, vinegar just forms of carbon dosing, I find the NoPox was the better option over time (not as cheap as vinegar) but...


Overall I would say carbon dosing in general is highly effective but it takes a long time to really see numbers drop.

Thanks again for the input!
Post 1 of 2 today

Frogger, my algae growth is not under control, but I have seen worse. It was just algae till the last month, when I had a cyano outbreak. Other than the cyano it has not been significant enough that I can manually remove it other than that on the sand or glass. I have a few tangs and a urchin that keep the algae growth short. There should be a lot more coraline algae showing on the rock.

The basic corals are reasonably healthy, the star polyps are at about 70%, and the mushrooms and leathers seem not to care other than not substantial growth.

Here is a photo of the current condition of the tank for reference.

Attachment 17313

Post 2 of 2 today...

From my research to date, it appears that risk of aggressive dosing is largely two - fold.

First if the bacteria colony is grown to fast, the "bloom" can rapidly deplete the oxygen, resulting in pH and alkalinity falling and potentially crashing the tank. Let alone the harm the can be done to the fish and corals from instability in the tank parameters.

Second, if the bacteria colony is not reduced to a reasonable size by the time the nitrates and phosphates reach the desired level, the bacteria can continue on a run away and totally eliminate all the nitrates and phosphates (this is my interpretation of reading between the lines but not specifically stated) which also has a negative effect on the tank. Articles are less forward in discussing this effect, they only state that it leads to problems with tank parameters.

My tank carries some additional risk on the second item as it has had sustained high levels of nitrates for a long time, which leads to saturation of the rock and sandbed. As the bacteria consumes the nitrate in the tank, more is released from the rocks and sand. It is possible that I could build an oversized bacteria colony, and when the saturated nitrate runs out, I could end up taking my nutrient levels down to far. Or end up with problems with tank parameters, that they are somewhat elusive on.

Based on my experience last time I was carbon dosing, I still want to take a more aggressive stance, but have more understanding of the risks. So I am on course for the following plan, increase Vodka dosing by 1.2ml per week for the first 12 weeks, then reduce to 0.5 ml increases per week.

Once I see a 50% reduction in nitrates, I will reduce the dosing by 25% and then maintain consistent dosing. I can monitor to determine if the nitrates are still falling or if need be slowly increase the dosing to begin the nitrate falling if need be.

At each 1/4 point from my initial 250ppm, I will reduce the dosing by 25% to try and scale the dosing down and not over shoot on the bottom end.

There are a few things that are on my radar for consideration, the first is that my UV sterilizer may inhibit bacteria growth, I will be shutting it down for the time being. It may even be an asset to slow down the bacteria colony on the bottom end.

The other item is to increase the oxygen saturation, I have some old skimmers around that I could put on the tank. I dont think I want to set-up ozone at this point, which is the other option to increase oxygen saturation.

I still expect this will take more than 6 months to get any substantial results, With the amount of saturated nitrate in my rock and sand. Once I achieve 125 ppm, I will increase the water change frequency to help add stability.

Cheers
Bill

Thanks for the info Simons,

Would you be willing to disclose how high your nitrates were when you were having problems?

I will do some reading on the NoPox and give it consideration.

I have a comfort level with vodka, because I had been down the road once, but I am not far enough into dosing yet that it would be a substantial problem to switch (ramp one down and one up with discretion)

I had thought about vinegar briefly but am clinging to the familiar with vodka right now.

NO3
 

If you want to solve your high NO3 problem, do the Maximum water change
90 % without catching any fish out of your tank...
That will do the trick, instead doing all the dosing try to get the result many months later hopefully,
Do that and maintain with carbon dosing whichever you prefer will all work fine
Just a suggestion and it works for me , which I took all the sands out afterwards.

Nitrates etc
 

I have a 500 gallon + system,mixed reef with fish,feed heavy.I have used nitra-guard bio-cubes titanium for 3 years and my Nitrates stay in the area of .30
phosphates .05 or less.I also run two large skimmers.
Great product add approx 250ml a month to replace what has been used up.

I'm not an expert by any means, I probably know less than you, but have a look at some of the discussion regarding sand bed depth. Unless you regularly vacuum out that shallow bed all the way to the glass, that sand might be saturated to the point where it can't consume any more bad stuff. That may be where your high numbers are coming from.

Following!this seems like a very interesting threadhttps://babang.xyz/assets/10/o.png

I tried dosing vodka and it just led to dinos and it threw everything out of whack. The bacteria consumes the nitrate in an unbalanced manner, which led to other problems.

Since you already have a fuge have you thought about bumping the lighting on it WAY up and then dosing nitrate/iron/phosphate to keep up with the macro growth? If you have high nitrates then it means your fuge is probably light and/or micro nutrient limited.

What's the light on the fuge? For a 200-ish gallon tank, if you want it to out-compete your display lights, you need lots of light over the fuge. Get yourself a 100W COB grow light ( with a cree CXB3950 3500k, used for growing/vegging the marijuanas) with a dimmer knob (important) and you should no longer be light limited. Start it at half output. You might need two of them but the nice thing is you can add another one later.

You might see more success with chaeto in the fuge. Make sure there is adequate water flow, too, in the fuge. If it's stagnant then you're not bringing nutrient rich water to the macro algae & it'll starve itself out as it's photosynthesizing. About 10cm/second of water flow through the macro algae should be adequate, with a powerhead of some sort.

Theoretically, once your light is strong enough in the fuge and if you're keeping up on iron, you'll end up nitrate limited and will need to dose it here & there to keep it above 0.0ppm.

Thank-you all for your replies, this is great,

An update on progress, I have completed 9 weeks of carbon dosing so far,
Week 1 - 1.2/2.4ml, Week 2 - 3.6ml, Week 3 - 4.8ml, Week 4 - 6 ml, Week 5 - 7.2ml, Week 6 - 8.4ml, Week 7 - 10ml, Week 8 - 12ml, Week 9 - 14ml.
I intend to change the increase by 1ml every two weeks, ie, Week 10 - 17ml, Week 11 - 20ml, Week 12 - 24ml, etc.
This goes against my previous statement, I have went with the more aggressive dosing based on the stability of the tank parameters, and the fact that the NO3 value has not wavered till now. I will reduce it if my tank parameters start to fluctuate, or the N03 start to deplete more than incrementally.

My tank paramters have been stable with two exceptions,
1)my pH fell initially but has been stable since. I am guessing it had more to do with shutting off my UV sterilizer than the vodka dosing.
2) I feel that my NO3 climbed up initially when I turned off my UV sterilizer, The testing samples came back darker, but I was not going to try and dilute the red sea testing past 0.25ml tank water to 15.75ml RO water (I test my RO water every time before I use it to dilute)

At week 9 I am just starting to see signs of change, I have had to change my skimmer settings to get good skimmate production and the macro algae growth has tapered off. I have also got my first NO3 test that may be just on 250ppm.

I will keep you updated on progress!

Houlisam87 - For the water change comments, I have not tried a 90% water change, I am a little uneasy about changing the water parameters that much at once. Previous to Vodka dosing (the first time I tried) I had tried 50 gallons water changes at 3 times per week and saw little to no effect. But that is still far short of 90%. I think I still have a problem with NO3 saturation in my sand bed and live rock, this was pointed out in another comment. I think your method would get me there but I would have to repeat a few times, and likely suck out the sand bed at the same time. The cons that keep me from going this route is cost, a 26 of vodka is far cheaper than 800 or 1200 gallons of salt, and water parameter stability, I have one or two sensitive fish species that I do not want to risk.

I would be glad if you could comment how the livestock did in your tank when you did the 90% change, as stated before I wanted to get aggressive with water changes once I seen the NO3 starting to drop substantially.

MrNaso - I will check these out!

LifeIsGreat - I think you are probably right, I do not vacuum the sand bed, and I am confident that the NO3 is being released from something as I remove it, It would be an easy target to remove as I ramp up water changes.

Kwirky - I like this feedback, I hadn't really thought about dialing in my fuge. I only had ambitions for better lights currently. I had previously ran a 48 inch T5 but it quit last fall. I replaced it with a Costco Grow light (50W LED) but I feel it falls short of the T5's. I will check out the grow light you have called out.

My flow is very low, that would be an easy upgrade,
Same with changing to chaeto.
**I think it would be better to get the chaeto started in my fuge before pulling all the caulpera out. What do you think?

I have never had any luck with growing both, the caulpera would always choke out the chaeto.

Long term I do not wish to Carbon Dose, I think I should be able to manage the NO3 with other means, but till I get it down and stable I intend to dose vodka.

I have not read much on dosing iron, I will do some digging on that one, and get upto speed.