Ideas on getting nitrates up
 

Just about crashed my tank a few weeks ago. Right as someone warned me about my nutrients being too low I had a massive RTN event. Bleached LPS too. More to it than that, I had just changed back to Halides, my Alk channel pooped out a couple weeks prior. The usual one thing after another. Oh ya, skimmer died the week after.

So, things are on the mend now and I'm trying to get my Nitrates and Phosphates back up. They have been undetectable for the last year or so, and things have been slow growing and not great colors.
-I've been feeding small amounts several times a day (Was feeding roughly half cube/day. Now I'm putting in 2-3/day.)
-Pulled my filter socks.
-Stopped using Prodibio (I've since started the BioDigest again but am still holding off on Bioptim)

Problem is my nitrates are slowly rising, but phosphates rise very quickly. I have to run gfo with very low flow to keep on top of it.

Is this a bacteria imbalance that will eventually find equilibrium?

My routine is 15% water changes every 2 weeks. Vacum the sand and blow off the rocks with a MJ everytime. Using H20cean salt. About to switch to Aqua forest.

This also encouraged me to find a better way of tracking my parameters than a pencil and paper:

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/...psktj9bguh.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/...psxr0y3w9p.jpg

As you can see, I'm having a difficult time balancing the flow through my gfo to stay on top of the phosphates. Also, after the RTN I should have shut off the doser so ALK/CA got a little out of control.

Have you thought about using a product like Foz down for phoshate control works awesome and predictable and you can dose it by mixing it in Ro water, after its all set up and running you can just adjust the dose and your P04 will follow . Its More predictable, easier and WAYYY cheaper then GFO, once you switch you never go back.

The PO4 readings look ok to me. I'm happy anywhere between 0.01 - 0.1 ppm, preferably around 0.06 ppm. Most tanks need to use a little bit of GFO or some other phosphate reducer. The NO3 is definitely low, but not undetectable. Set skimmer to dry skim so it doesn't pull so much out.

What's your fish list? Maybe you just need more fish poop. Also, that alkalinity line graph gives me heart palpitations... :eek:

I've thought lots about it. I really don't like the idea of the precipitate hiding everywhere and building up over time... But I might give it a try.


Yeah... The nitrate test has always been absolutely clear. All this feeding feels so weird, but now the numbers are slowly increasing and showing on the tests. When I shut off GFO, the PO4 shoots skyhigh.

For fish I have the following:
2 Ocellaris
1 Hippo tang (4-5")
1 Yellow Tang
1 Royal Gramma
1 Firefish
2 Lyretail Anthias
1 Bengai Cardinal
1 Yellowtail Wrasse
1 Harlequin Tusk (Juvenile)

And the usual BTA, Clam, pepermint shrimp, astrea snails, cerith snails, nassarius snails.

If more fish is the solution, what about dosing Nitrate until we add a couple more fish. Potassium Nitrate? Calcium Nitrate? I've heard carbon dosing with nitrate dosing can potentially reduce phosphates.


My Alk/CA has been driving me crazy. It's always been so stable, but after this event I should have shut off my doser then ramped it up slowly. I'll be testing Alk and PO4 every second day until things settle down.

Grrr... I forgot to check the spelling now I can't edit... Banggai cardinal!

Sounds like Sodium Nitrate might be the way to go.

I've read several reefers that use it to balance Carbon, Nitrogen, and Phosphates.

I have a whack of it if you want some.

Sodium Nitrate? Yeah that would be great.

I'll send ya a text later.

Ok, thanks to Mindy I have Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3)

She has a post kicking around on the mixing instructions, with some assistance from RHF.

So, I mixed 30g NaNO3 with 500mL of RODI water.

10mL adds 440mg NO3 (based on molecular weight, NaNO3 is 73% nitrate by weight)

My combined volume is roughly 511L (135gal)
440mg/511L = .86mg/L (ppm)

.86ppm/10mL = .086ppm/mL
1ppm/.086ppm/mL = 11.62mL

So, in theory, I need 11.62mL solution to raise nitrate by 1ppm.


This should be interesting.

Wow math....

Having bit of phosphates is not a bad thing especially when you mentioned that your corals were pale, I guess if you have algae in your system that wouldn't help. I have almost the same fish load as you and feed the crap out of my tank, corals have definately darkened up abit lately but I'd rather have healthy corals than pale ones. I guess the prodibio method was working a little too efficient for you. I am currently waiting for the brightwells brick to see if that makes a difference.

Did you get your skimmer fixed yet?

I know by experience that ripping out phosphates too fast can have really bad effects on your tank, I am starting to dose reef bio fuel which is suppose to decrease nitrates and phosphates, just started today so cant really see if it works yet or not.

Keep us posted and hopefully your corals will bounce back soon!

Agreed, some phosphates is good. But i have to run gfo to keep them below .1ppm.

And normally I'd leave it alone, but i'm trying to get nitrate off the floor. As i raise nitrate by feeding fish and corals phosphate is rising way faster.

My ideal range would be 1-2ppm nitrate and .05ish phosphate. I know I can't control that, but i'd like to get it close and balanced.

Yup skimmer is fixed and pulling some thick stinky crap out again.

I couldn't get a read on nitrates last night. Am I the only one that has a hard time with the shades of pink on Salifert NO3?

So, this morning NO3 was .2ppm? Maybe?
And PO4 was .135ppm

GFO is just a small trickle so PO4 doesn't run away on me.

So, NO3 needs to go up and PO4 needs to go down. But that's why I'm here.

Added ~6mL solution last night.
Added ~12mL solution this morning.

I'll test again this afternoon and probably dose again.

For those of you just tuning in, ~12mL of NaNO3 solution should be a dose of ~1ppm NO3 for my volume of water in my reef.

I got some extra nitrates I can sell ya!!
LOL

I'm interested to see how this works out for you in the next 4-8 weeks. I think there will be significant improvement. Now, in my tank I need to add BOTH nitrate and phosphate. I can't even get a whiff in my tank.

Any pics of your tank before now and later when you have fixed it?

So we can get an idea of how your tank is now vs before and if adding nitrates will make a difference, this could be useful to other members suffering the same syndrome.

I'll have to get the wife to whip out the camera. But ya, it's a good idea.


NO3 is 1 ppm now (I think)
PO4 is .02ppm now???

I took the first measurement (.135ppm) this morning before the lights were on. Has the algae, macro, and corals used that much phosphate? Or is this a testing issue? (Using Hanna)

Sounds like testing issue. Do you use the same vial of water throughout the test? Do you make sure the vial is inserted into the checker in the same direction each time?

No, I use one vial for C1 and a seperate vial for C2. I always point the 10mL label forward.

I found some better tips from Hanna Instruments here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1961215

The instructions say to shake for 2 minutes, but on the forum post it sounds like it's not required.


I'll try that tomorrow with the same cuvette. I did the test again and got 5ppb (6ppb and hour before that)

Yeah use the same vial so the entire test.

Matt, did you find this article? The article is regarding elevated nitrate, but does talk about the effects of alkalinity with nitrate and photosynthesis too.

http://www.reefedition.com/nitrate-i...reef-aquarium/

Nice find! I'll read it more thoroughly later. A quick skim, this caught my eye:

Curious, when I dose nitrate and the bacteria consume it does that contribute Alkalinity to the system? I know it would be insignificant. If I was dosing an additional 1ppm a day that would equate to .045dKH per day.



This makes sense. The higher the nutrients the higher Alk is needed. Likewise, low nutrients generally requires low Alk. Are they suggesting coral growth and zooxanthellae overproduction (browning) happens at levels of .3 to .6ppm? Anecdotal reports 1 to 2ppm being fine... Also, 4.5meq/L is just over 12.5dKH!


Anyway, I'll spend more time with it and wrap my head around it later.

Thanks!

Ok, tests as follows:

NO3: .2ppm
PO4: .07ppm

GFO has been off for 24 hours now.


So, yesterday I dosed 1ppm NO3, the tested levels rose yesterday and had fallen again today. Tough to say the effect its having on PO4 because I've been running GFO and only recently shut it off.

So, 24mL solution (2ppm NO3) dosed today.

Ok, so this is interesting:

1.5ppm NO3
0.01ppm PO4

And the water is cloudy! So, as soon as the bacteria had enough NO3 they went crazy. I tested PO4 twice. First time showed as 0. Second showed as 5ppb phosphorus (.015ppm PO4).

I'll let the bacteria bloom pass, then I'll resume dosing NaNO3.

PO4: .024ppm
NO3: Didn't get home until super late. I don't know about anybody else, but I can't get a very good read on the Salifert test without sunlight at my back. Artificial light just doesn't do it for me.


My skimmer pulled a half a cup of the nastiest crud in the last 24hours! Very thick and smelly!

Can't really comment on how things are looking as the lights were off when I left this morning and were off by the time I got home. Both anemones look deflated, but that's not necessary abnormal. Overal things are still coloring up from the bleaching. Steady improvement over the last few days.

:lol:

Try using a cool white fluorescent tube for checking. Warm colored bulbs make the NO3 kit impossible to read, but yeah sunlight is easiest. When the Salifert kit is used up, try the Red Sea Pro nitrate kit - it has a second vial that you match the colors to each other. I find it easier to read than Salifert when NO3 is less than 10 ppm.

This is interesting as I have the exact issue zero nitrate and phosphate always .03-.07 by the way Hanna is your best bet for nitrate test kit screw the color matching game.

I've got a garage full of them. I'll try it this afternoon. I'll check in in both daylight and the garage and see if there's a difference.



Ya, I agree but Hanna doesn't make a hand held colorimeter for Nitrate. Only Nitrite... They make a portable photometer, but it's $355 USD!

It feels so weird dosing nitrate.... I've been so proud I've had undetectable levels for the last year, but frustrated with the amount of cyano I've battled...
It makes sense. Bacteria, corals, fish, you, me all need Carbon, Nitrogen, and Phosphorus in different ratios. The ratios are different depending on the organism, but it's a triangle. My reef was deficient in Nitrogen. Some are deficient in Phosphorus or Carbon. If you feed the bacteria enough of all three they flourish. I'm pretty sure the cyano was doing so well previously because it was getting plenty of carbon and phosphate, and for nitrogen they are particularly good at "fixing" atmospheric nitrogen.

The lights in the garage seem to make it easier to read the Salifert NO3 test.

NO3: 2.5ppm
PO4: .03ppm

Yesterday I dosed 1ppm NO3, today was none.

Seems now PO4 is the limiting nutrient. NO3 is the highest I'd like to see it. I'll stop dosing until it gets below 1ppm. Lets see how long it takes.

Are you running rowa or something to absorb phosphate? or at this point just relying on the nitrate to help keep phosphate low .

Hanna doesn't make a checker or photometer that is seawater compatible. The instruments can't "see" through the high TDS of seawater.

I was previously running HCGFO, but have shut it off. The idea is to find a balance where the bacteria keep both nitrate and phosphate low. I hope to only have to dose carbon. I expect I will occasionally have to dose NaNO3 from time to time, but I'd like the tank's chemistry to keep everything in balance on its own.

So, I couldn't find the info, but is the Hanna HI96728 freshwater only?

Yes, freshwater only. I'd have bought one long ago otherwise. That's why none of the reef stores carry it. With Hanna gadgets you can usually assume it's freshwater only unless it specifically says marine compatible.

Wow I assumed my buddies were using a Hanna guess not I've never invested much into nitrate because mine has always been non existent. I'm very interested in how this works in the long run sounds a lot cheaper then constantly buying rowa. I'm actually using phosphate minus by aquaforest right now and it's pretty week product vs rowa.

So far so good.

I haven't dosed NO3 since tues. My Nitrates did rise as high as 4.0, but I think that was due to overfeeding as well as dosing.

Right now:
NO3: 2.5ppm
PO4: .042ppm

PO4 has been stable around .04-.05ppm. Hopefully by end of the week NO3 will be down to around 1ppm.


This has been interesting. I def won't be dosing NO3 on a regular basis. I'll have it ready though if NO3 and PO4 get out of balance again.

If my PO4 stays where it is, I'm thinking I can start using my GFO reactor for carbon instead....

Lookin good!

Was away all week, came home to a kamikaze stylo had swan dived into a large sinulara. Most of the sinulara was black and falling apart.

Despite this, this were pretty good.

NO3: 0.2ppm
PO4: .037ppm

I had my wife dose 1ppm NO3 of the solution while i was gone and just dosed another 1ppm now.

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How are the corals looking? Any darkening of the sticks yet?

They had gone from white several weeks ago (beginning of thread), to weird random colors, to brown, and now seeing the pinks and blues coming back. Green came back the fastest. Wish I had tried this before the mini-crash. Would have had much better results by now since everything is coming back from near death experiences. Well.... the lucky ones are anyway. :cry:

Aw... :(