Newbie looking for feedback
 

Hey Canreef!

After reading through a couple threads online where someone new to reefkeeping has made mistakes on their build and could have avoided it by posting their plans to all the experts out there, I've decided I would do that. I hope this is the correct section to post this!

I'm currently in the process of shutting down my 180g African Cichlid tank and converting it to my first reef tank. My goal with this reef tank is a combination of SPS/LPS (I'm not a huge fan of most softies) and some fish. Fish stock I'm leaning towards a few tangs (I'm thinking an Achilles, Powder Blue and a Blonde Naso), some chromis or cardinals, a mandarin and maybe some others like firefish and/or flame angel. I'm also open to suggestions.

Equipment (planned):

• 180g Aqueon glass display tank that I plan to drill for external Beananimal overflow and possibly an internal calfo c2c for surface skimming
• 75g sump
• SRO3000INT or Vertex Alpha Cone 200 skimmer (I'm leaning towards the SRO to save money)
• Return pump to be decided
• TMC Vecton UV Sterilizer (I have this leftover from my Cichlid tank)
• Vertex GFO reactors
• Apex Gold Controller
• Apex DOS used for auto water change (1-2 gallons per day)
• Tunze Osmolator ATO
• BuildmyLED lights (2x12000k, 1xSuper Actinic to start)
• Maxspect Gyre XF150 x2 (I'm thinking 1 at each end alternating)
• Reeflo Barracuda Closed Loop system (details below)
• 2 part doser to be decided later but I'm leaning towards the Vertex Libra independent of the Apex
• RO/DI plumbed with a solenoid and float switch to keep my ATO reservoir topped off
• A UPS of some kind for the Apex and if possible separate battery backups for the Gyre's
• I may also add a bio pellet reactor of some kind at some point

The plan is to pick up some cabinets from Ikea (1 on each end of the tank) for storage and I'm building a custom stand with higher clearance than the Aqueon stand I have now. Inside one cabinet will have a water reservoir for ATO, RO/DI and whatever other various equipment that I need to store/hide. The other cabinet will have a second water reservoir for the Auto water change, Apex+modules, battery backups, etc. I'll plumb the auto water change to drain down my kitchen sink which is close by.

The closed loop system will be split into 2 returns and one line will go into a couple spray bars underneath my rocks and the other return will go into 4 outlets on a 4-way wavemaker (something like the oceans motion) so that only 2 outlets will be "open" at a time, alternating.

I do have some questions that maybe some of you can answer...

Should I plumb my UV inline with my overflow or sump return and slow my sump flow down to between 500-800gph?

I ask because this was my original plan. I thought it was most efficient to run close to the same flow rate through your sump as your skimmer can process and increase flowrate in the tank with other means (like the Gyre's or CLS). I just called BRS today about something and they said I should increase my sump flow to between 7-10 times my display volume and the SRO3000INT or Vertex Alpha can handle the increased flow rate and still do their job as efficiently. The person I spoke to thought it was better for nutrient export to have a higher flow rate through the sump (I'm guessing via reactors because the skimmer can only process so much so fast).

Is my CLS way overkill and is a Reeflo barracuda/hammerhead hybrid way too much pump for a setup like that?

At between 4590-6000 gph that is a lot of flow and I'm not sure I can drill so many holes in the back of my tank without affecting the structural integrity. In total I count 11 holes just for the overflow and CLS. I plan to have the sump return lines coming over the top so I don't need to drill those. If you're curious, the idea for the spray bars came from a thread over on TheReefTank forums about trying to prevent nutrient build up under your rocks. One person used some polypropylene sheets to create a platform for their rocks and ran a spray bar as well. It seems that many people have great success without this so I'm open to other ideas.

That's it for now... Sorry for the novel! lol

~ Sid

Read "the dearth of a spirited discussion" thread, should really motivate you to start a newbie thread lol. All your equipment looks good, your fish selection is gonna be tough for someone new to saltwater. Achilles is a hard tang to keep and a expensive first fish to lose, and a mandarin should only go into a mature tank with plenty of copepods

Ya I have read that about Mandarins so I was planning on waiting until my tank was around a year old before adding one. I've also read that tangs in general are difficult fish with a tendency to get ich. I will have a 40g breeder for a quarantine tank and I've done loads of research on the different tangs but will continue to read more (I'm a bit of a research junky lol). I hear the powder blue can be a pain as well.

No, whatever you do, don't read that thread! It is not for newbies!!! In fact the mods should restrict it, so that only those that have been on the thread for 5 years can access it.

This is a great hobby,... really!... Just go slow and do lots of reading (and understanding). Journals are often very interesting and can give you many ideas. There is not one right way to do it. Lots of room for your imagination and trying different things. Just don't set your expectations too high. There will be setbacks. But if you are willing to research and learn, you could have a future TOTM (you'll learn what that is later).

Good luck, and enjoy the journey.

Tangs are hit or miss. You can have perfect parameters and still get ich that's why I would get a cheaper one to start. And Tangs usually don't like other Tangs, so add them at the same time

If only I could :)

You're right, it is a great hobby, and a hell of a ride. Mostly, whatever you build will have issues that you'll correct in your next tank. Which will also not be right, and you'll fix those things in the next tank. Repeat lol

Tangs in general are fine. Achilles, you're likely tossing 300 bucks out the window. I'd guess 1 in 10 survive, and that's being optimistic. Powder blues, not far behind.

- UV makes the biopellets much less effective. Not recommended to run them together.
- Daily small WC is a waste of salt. Larger weekly or bi-weekly WC are much more effective.
- Don't skimp on a skimmer - if you want to save a few bucks find a used one rather than buying a cheaper one. If you're willing to put out the bucks for a Vertex Alpha, then just buy a Bubble King. :D
- Return flow should be 3-6x the total system volume. I like to be right around the 5-6x mark. If you're teeing off for reactors and such you'll need a bigger return obviously.
- An Achilles Tang will not be comfortable in a 180-gallon forever. Ask Marie. :D A 40-gallon tank is too small for a QT for it.
- Instead of spray bars I'd just use nozzles. Spray bars cut the flow down too much and take up too much space. Put the CL holes in the bottom pane, not the back, and point the nozzles towards the surface.

Closed loop? Well good for you, going retro and all!

Closed loops are the bomb. I'm not sure why they have left fashion. I'd have one on my tank if I had room under it for the pump and all the plumbing.

I'd like to respectfully disagree with this point. I remember reading a RHF article where he crunched the numbers on the effects of many smaller changes vs 1 large one. This article (thank you google): http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/

I think the take away was that 1 30% change a month removes 30% of nitrates (for example), and an infinite number of infinitely small changes that equal the same 30% over a month would reduce it by just under 26%. So you do lose 4% efficiency by continual water changes, but gain consistency and possible ease of maintenance.

You also lose the siphoning of the sand to remove gunk, but you can always do an extra change just for that.

Sorry Ian, you misunderstand the article (or maybe you misunderstand what I was referring to). The article references continuous water change, as in you're removing old water at the same time as you're pumping new water in, not daily water changes.

I was referring to daily WC where the total WC volume is removed, then consecutively replaced. Since every time you do a WC you're removing a portion of the new sw you just put in yesterday it is less effective. If the OP chooses to do daily AND continuous WC (which could very well be the case If he's using a doser for it) that would compound it by another 4%.

My plan was to still do one or two larger water changes a month (Im used to over 100 gallons per week on my cichlid tank) and syphon sand/rocks. I got the idea for automatic daily water changes from reading through a thread over on thereeftank where a member did daily one gallon water changes and posted his results over the course of a year or more (I believe, though I could be wrong) and it was very successful. That sparked my curiosity to pound the Google pavement for more info and it seemed like the consensus was exporting nutrients daily was a good thing.... that being said, I am new to reefs and saltwater and I'm not about to disagree with anyone lol. Maybe I'll set the auto water change to do 15-20 gallons per week, instead? I know from experience with years of huge freshwater changes that if I can automate something like water changes, my life will be a lot better lol.

In regards to the skimmer, my main problem with the vertex alpha is just how expensive it is. I have a lot of other expensive items to buy and the SRO3000 gets pretty good reviews/feedback. I want the alpha but I don't want to overspend for better build quality if the SRO is going to be just as efficient at removing nutrients. These are just my thought processes and reasoning behind what I've come up with so far though.

I really appreciate the advice and it's given me some things to reconsider and keep it coming.

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

I didn't know that about the UV and bio pellets. Good to know. If I decide to run a bio pellet reactor I'll be sure to shut off my UV. I need to read up on bio pellets more to understand them better.

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

That water change article is a great read. I'm still reading through it but there's some great info in here. It's possible that this question is answered already in that article and I haven't found it but I wonder if the benefits of daily, continuous water changes would out weigh the fact that they're slightly less effective? Exporting nutrients seems so crucial for some corals. If it's just straight up wasteful and not very beneficial (or not enough to be worth it) then I will definitely reconsider my plan.

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

I quarantine, and do a prophylactic tank transfer treatment (for ich) on all new members that enter my display. If done properly, tank transfer can almost guarantee to rid your fish of ich, even if you don't see anything on them.

I have a hippo tang, and I've never seen a single spot of ich on him since I've had him for about 8 months now. Same goes for the other 6 fish (knock on wood).

Some may find it a pain to be to meticulous about it, but I lost all my fish, when I first ventured into saltwater, to ich. Since then I've learned my lesson, and I'm willing to put in the effort if it'll greatly improve the chances of my inhabitants.

Of course, with this method, you have to be a bit more careful about anything you introduce into your display, including frags, inverts, etc. So you definitely have to be more aware of trying to minimize any possibilities for introducing disease in your tank by making sure not a single drop of foreign saltwater, regardless of where it came from, enters your tank, having separate nets/equipment as to not contaminate the display, etc.

As things go with all other aspects of this hobby, you'll find people that will say, and have experienced, the opposite. It all depends on whether you're willing to take a risk or not. Some people live with ich, have healthy fish, feed properly, and their fish can combat the ich on their own, given a strong immune system.

Just a thought, if you're worried about ich on your tang(s).

I just noticed this line in your first post. If you do something like this make sure there is redundancy because I can tell you about several tanks that have crashed when an ATO fails to turn off and it's attached to an unlimited supply of freshwater. Murphy's Law says you won't be home when this happens - you'll be on a beach in Mexico or something.

I prefer to have a limited supply of RO available in a reservoir. I aim for 10% of the tank volume. That's enough for a week's worth of top off for most tanks, and it's little enough that if the ATO pumped it all into the system the salinity won't drop so much that it will kill everything. I also design the sump so that it will hold the entire volume of the ATO reservoir so that if the situation does happen the floor doesn't get wet. Redundancy, redundancy.

My thoughts on the automatic WC is just that it's one more thing to go wrong. If you do design an automated system make sure there is redundancy.

My preferred method is like this:

- Tee off your RO/DI so you have a line and a float valve going to RO tub (not the ATO reservoir) and a line going to your SW mixing tub. You can use manual ball valves, or you can hook it up to the Apex with solenoid valves so it will automatically refill these once a week (OWHY).

- Use a pump and hose to refill the ATO reservoir from the RO tub.

- Use the same hose (sans pump) to drain the tank via siphon to either a floor drain, laundry tub, or bathtub. While draining, use a gravel vac and bucket to vacuum sand (you'll only need to do maybe 3-4 buckets for a tank that size) and dump down toilet.

- Once draining is done, refill with hose and pump. Just drop the pump into the SW mixing tub.

I use quick connect hose fittings for hoses, and I use a Quiet One 6000 for a pump which moves water pretty quick. Pick up a few plastic spring clamps to hold your hoses in place while you draining and refilling. If you have space you can plumb in the pumps and use ball valves so you don't have to use a hose. You can hook the pumps up to switches so you just have to flick a switch to refill the tank.

The reason I like this is that "nothing" can go wrong. Sure, you can forget the siphon hose and drain too much out. Fix that by submerging the hose only to the line you want to drain to. If you had solenoids doing this, one could fail so it drains but doesn't refill (return pump runs dry), or it fills but doesn't drain (wet floor).

It's up to you, but this is something I just don't trust to complete automation. You can do all sorts of things to partially automate it.

I don't think I misunderstood either you or the article. You suggested changing 2g a day was wasteful and weekly or biweekly was "much more effective". I disagree with that assessment (again, respectfully! 😀 )

The OP is talking about a 180g tank (let's assume for the sake of argument that the total system water is 200g). If they change out 2g a day they are doing about 60g a month, for a total of 30% water volume. If they did it all at once every month it would reduce nitrates (and any other accumulated pollution) by 30%. By changing 2g a day it is reduced by about 26% (per the RHF article). There has been a 4% waste, in this case 8g.

I don't see 8g of saltwater a month lost to be that big of a waste to gain the benefit of automating the process (plus stability benefits, plus not having to heat the new water).

I don't mean to derail this thread, just wanted the OP to hear that I thought the plan for using the DOS to change 2g a day was a good one (IMHO).

Sure, but the article doesn't support your opinion then. The article refers to a single continuous WC, not a daily consecutive WC. :)

For a daily consecutive WC of 1% per day for 30 days you will have 26% new SW in the tank. For a weekly consecutive WC of 10% weekly for 30 days you will have 34% new SW in the tank. If you change those WC numbers to 2% and 20% you will change 45% and 60% over 30 days respectively.

Some people run UV for ich control. But with proper QT practices that isn't necessary. Also, beneficial bacteria is an important part of a healthy reef tank, the concern is that UV may kill or reduce that benefit.

Planning equipment for your new reef tank is good, but I don't think you have to go overboard. You can have a very good, thriving set up without spending a fortune. Then as you gain experience, you will have a better understanding and feeling for what you really need/want. There are of course some minimum givens, like good lights, and a good skimmer (lots of capacity is good, more is better, and too much is just right).

But just as important (I would argue more) are your reef keeping practices such as QT, dipping corals, checking/maintaining parameters (dKH is very important). I have seen far too many newbies (and some oldies, too) get frustrated and quit the hobby because their fish die or they get one of the far too common coral pests (AEFW is the worst). Or they have persistent algae and/or cyano problems. These issues are all totally preventable with good sound reef keeping practices.

Again, read lots and learn what has worked for others. But be wary of the many internet experts, that like to copy and paste, but have no direct experience themselves on a particular topic. And be a good observer of your own tank, to learn what works and what doesn't. Bear in mind, though, that there is often a very latent effect with cause and effect, esp with SPS corals. So don't be too hasty with anything. Anyway, it will be fun, and best of luck with your new endeavor.

Thank you everyone for all your comments!!

To explain my ATO plans in more detail, I was planning to use a water reservoir with a Tunze Osmolator ATO to keep the sump topped up. The RO/DI would be plumbed with a solenoid and controlled by the apex to keep the water reservoir topped up (float switches for both low and high marks in the water reservoir). I was going to get a plumber friend who is also an aquarium junkie like myself to plumb the actual RO/DI because I admit that I know nothing about plumbing.

Would that give me the redundancy that you're referring to?

Basically the ATO keeps thet sump topped up and whenever the water levels in the water reservoir drop the Apex would trigger the RO/DI unit to fill the water reservoir back up. If the RO/DI failed it would overfill my water reservoir but it wouldn't fill my tank. The most the ATO could dump into my tank if it failed in the "on" position would be the contents of the water reservoir. I'm thinking a 20gallon tank or something would work well for a ATO water reservoir but would that be too much?

Edit: I should add that I live in a townhouse with ground level main floor so I have no basement and no closet to keep any tubs or garbage cans to store water. My wife isn't thrilled that I'm converting to a reef tank as-is so leaving anything visible to annoy her will just compound that problem lol.

The plan I was thinking of using for the auto-water change was to use a 29g tank (I already have one in a closet unused) that I would fill with saltwater. Using the Apex and DOS I would set up a daily water change to swap out 1-2 gallons of water at a certain time. At 2 gallons per day it would last me 14 days before I had to replenish the water reservoir. I would then mix up more saltwater and add it back in myself (likely using a pump like you described). That would have to be done manually because like I mentioned in the last post, unfortunately I don't have anywhere to store large tubs or garbage cans for water. I was also planning to setup a float switch to remind me when the water change reservoir was getting low. The cabinets that I'm picking up is my attempt at adding some storage but at best all I can fit is a 30ish" wide storage cabinet on either end of the tank and it has to "look pretty" or my wife will not be happy with me. That means nothing left out in the open, nothing left unfinished looking or out of place, etc.

I have an even simpler ATO system. I have an RO/DI line going directly to my sump (no reservoir). It runs through a solenoid that comes on every 6 hours for 5 min. The sump level is controlled by a float valve. But as a final failsafe, I also have that double float switch that will not allow the solenoid to come on (and flow water) if that sump level is reached. Have had this set up for a several years, and even my primary float has never failed, let alone the backups.

I should mention though, that my RO/DI system is located upstairs near the kitchen sink (also use RO for household drinking) and has two pressurized (by household line pressure only) holding tanks. And my sump is located downstairs, so always have decent pressure and volume available there.

Sidius,

If your ATO float switch failed in the "open" position, wouldn't it keep pumping water from the 29g and then the float switch in the ATO reservoir would refill, so you'd overflow your display/sump and drop the salinity? Also, if the float switch in the reservoir fails, you have freshwater all over your main floor. Neither scenario would please your wife or you.

I really like Reef Pilot's setup for failsafe, foolproof ATO system, cause having it timed (5 min every 6 hours) will really minimize any excessive RODI water dumpage, either into the display/sump or your floors.

Another note I tell newbies is that reefing is as much an art as it is a science. We've all known or read about people with all the latest gizmos who can't keep corals/fish alive and others who use the most basic system and have thriving tanks. So if anybody tells you its "his/her way only", then runaway.There are a lot of ways to achieve success in reefing, but most of it involves spending the time to learn, to keep track of what your livestock are doing, and to having the patience to not rush and make sudden changes.

If you're into sps, what I've noticed is that low bioload is one common factor in many really nice sps setups. The owners chose a few fish they really like and didn't overload their systems with a lot of other fish. Low bioload keeps it easier to maintain high water quality. High bioload is possible, but means you have to keep on top of things. As others have mentioned, and you already seem to have found out from your research, Achilles & Powder Blues are very much ick magnets and can be real difficult for even experienced reefers to keep alive and ick-free. The Achilles comes from surface areas of the Hawaiian reef where there is extreme wave action and high oxygen levels (according to my friend who snorkeled all over the Islands). I think that is why so many die in captivity. Achilles generally like to be the only tang in the tank. Powder Blues and Achilles will break out with ick at the first inkling of stress, such as you look at them funny (ok a bit of an exaggeration but NOT much). Neither fish are really suitable as "first" fish for newbies.

I also really like your small daily water change idea. It's something I would do in a heart beat if I had the space, but I don't. My wife would kill me if I took up more space in our limited living area for an auto water change system.

Anthony

With my set up, both the solenoid (in the open position) and the float valve would have to fail before I could have an overflow. While theoretically possible, the mathematical probability of that is very, very minuscule. Especially, since the solenoid is spring loaded to close, and needs power to open. The much more likely failure is for the solenoid failing to open, which of course can't produce a flood.

And if you wanted to get really silly anal, you could have a double solenoid system, so if one does stay open the other one would still close the line. But then you would double the chance of a closed failure (much more probable).

These are not airliner systems where life (human that is) is at risk, so we have to be reasonable/practical with the cost of our risk mitigation.

I have the same setup. Has worked for 6 years without issue, other than solenoid failing closed about year 4, so simply replaced it.

Ahhh yes I see what you guys are saying now about the ATO. It took me a minute to understand it but that would happen if it failed in the on position. I like that failsafe idea of only running the ATO for 5 minutes at a time at 6 hour intervals. My tank and cabinets are going in about 10-15' from my kitchen sink, and my friend who is an actual plumber is going to plumb the RO/DI, so hopefully I can achieve the correct pressure for something like that. It eliminates the need for a ATO reservoir at all and for that matter, I guess it would eliminate the need for the Tunze Osmolator at all which saves me money :)

I'm not going to lie, I'm a technology nerd and love what things can be achieved with the Apex so that is part of why I came up with some of these ideas. The auto-water change idea came from a combination of years of dealing with weekly massive water changes in my freshwater systems and reading the various studies that I've found on the web about the benefits of daily smaller changes. I will of course still have to clean detritus out from rocks, sand, etc. so I will need to do some manual/larger water changes from time to time.

In regards to the fish stock list. It's definitely not set in stone and very likely could change. The tangs would also not be the first fish I add to the tank. If I do decide to go that route, I would likely add those down the road after I've gained some experience in the difference between reef and freshwater husbandry and let the other inhabitants get settled. After years of dealing with aggressive and territorial African Cichlids that can stress each other out, I've grown accustom to researching each species endlessly before deciding to add them. I would never rush anything in any aquarium, let alone a reef system.

For those that are curious, I'm planning to use dry rock (with a few pieces of live rock) and taking my time to cook/cure them in rubbermaids first. Once ready, I'll add a CUC and then eventually a pair of clowns. Of course this is all a long ways away. I have a stand to build, a sump to finish and a lot of equipment to purchase before any of that that happens lol

My next big question is what is everyone's opinion on various skimmer options...

Of course in a perfect world we'd all have endless supplies of money and we could all buy the best that money can buy. In reality there is a limit to what we can afford and I want to make sure I buy the best I can without overspending just for a name.

From all the reading I've done, most people seem to agree that the Vertex Alpha Cone series is right up there with or possibly is the best of the best (subjective I'm sure). Unfortunately it's almost $1100 new (before tax). I've been reading up on the SRO3000INT and it gets great reviews. In fact from what I've read (and from what BRS said when I called them), the SRO series is a great skimmer and should be just as efficient as the Vertex, but the Vertex had better build materials/quality. Knowing that the build quality on the SRO has to be pretty good (just not as good) and it's half the price sitting at around $600 new (before tax), is it worth it?

I read a study on the efficiency of skimmers (I can't recall where but I want to say Reef Builders) and it seems that no matter the skimmer, they are all limited to about 35% efficiency at removing nutrients. Some are just better at processing it faster than others. I am probably over analyzing this to death but all that being said, is it worth spending the extra $500+tax just to achieve slightly better quality build/materials? I guess what I'm really asking is, will I be kicking myself later for not spending that extra money or will the SRO be a great skimmer for my system?

In the spirit of burning out all you wonderful people offering me advice, I'll ask another qestion. This time it's regarding the closed loop system I was planning.

Myka mentioned using nozzles instead of spray bars. I'm open to lots of ideas so maybe you could elaborate? Keep in mind that my glass tank is Aqueon and the bottom pane is tempered glass (According to their website) so I won't be able to drill that. My idea was to make spray bars using PVC and then pile rocks on top of them. I'd drill two separate holes, 1 for each spray bar, because I want two rock piles separated by sand and I don't want to see the bars (of course). I got the idea from another reefer somewhere that came up with the idea for trying to keep things from settling under the rocks. I'm not completely sold that it will achieve what I want it to do, it just seemed like a great idea in theory. Nozzles could work great as an alternative. I would also like to add 4x outlets with nozzles on a 4-way wave maker alternating current. Essentially it will have 6x 1" outlets with 4 being active at any given time. Will the Reeflo barracuda/hammerhead hybrid be insane overkill for this? It's rated at between 4300 and 6000 gph depending on what impeller you use (this rating is with 0 head loss). Keep in mind that I really like the maxspect gyre's and plan to run 2 of them alternating as well (one at each end of the tank for alternating waves/current). I figure, the more I can keep detritus/nutrients suspended the more will be removed from my tank in the sump. I love the flow patterns that the Gyre's create.

Not sure why you even want the complexity, expense, and noise of a CLS. I had one in my tank initially (inherited the system), and while it was very powerful and provided good water circulation, it also had a couple major drawbacks that I really didn't like.

Number one, is that it made a lot of noise. Not the type that is obviously loud, but it had a steady hum that could be heard/felt upstairs (pump is downstairs) and throughout much of the house. Did everything I could to make the pump quiet with the mounting and pipes, but could not get rid of that hum/vibration.

And the other real PITA was having to regularly clean the inlet inside the tank. I had an easily removal PVC pipe at the inlet with many holes drilled in it. These had to be small enough not to suck in tank inhabitants or other more solid matter from your tank. But coralline algae loved it, and other crap would gather at this spot, and it required regular attention and cleaning.

I eventually decommissioned it and just use in-tank powerheads. They are much more efficient at moving water, and can be repositioned easily as required. They also use a lot less power, and can be programmed to provide variable flow patterns. No noise and they are easier to clean.

Anyway, just some things to think about with a CLS.

Thank you for the feedback! I'm not sure I really know what I want lol. That kind of experience is great to hear... maybe I'll rethink the cls and add a couple more powerheads.

2 gyre's will offer good flow but do you think it's enough or would you recommend adding a couple vortechs or jebao pumps?

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

I would add a couple Jebao pumps as well,... lots of flow, good for SPS. Plus with multiple pumps, if one dies for some reason, still have others to keep adequate flow. Biggest issue with powerheads is that you can't hide them,... well, not easily.

This is definitely true. The giant pumps used for CL are noisy. Powerheads are easier to deal with. CL though can be invisible. :D

Ya the fact that CLS can be so hidden but add so much flow is what attracted me to them in the first place. Living in a townhouse, almost every wall I can put my tank has a neighbor on the other side. The vibrations and noise you described makes me worried they might be troublesome.

Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk

i originally had my tank drilled for CL the pump seal crapped out and i havent got around to replacing it. I now have 4 jaebo RW8 that draw at max like 15-20 W each, 2 are on random and 2 are on wave but low setting so im assuming im drawing roughly 40 watts average for 5-6000gph with zero noise on the low side vs 100 watts for 2500 gph and constant hum.
my next tank will not have a CL but im also not opposed to a few cords in the tank which is a major benifit of a CL

Does anyone have any thoughts about the protein skimmer debate?

I'm sure that topic has been beaten to death, so for that I'm sorry, it's just a tough choice. I really do like the Vertex Alpha... it's just so expensive. A used one is still the same or more than a brand new SRO