Do I really need to buy?
 

Do I really need a Neptune apex for $650???

Do I really need auto dosing pump???

Do I really need media reactors??

Do I really need Auto top off ???

120 tank 55 gallon sump with saltwater fish later soft corals

No, you need a tank that holds water, a light that doesn't kill any coral, and a Hagen power head to move water. Maybe a heater.

NEED water.

The rest is for convenience.

Brad, you forgot about Salt. I use IO, cheap but works, it doesn't nuke my tank as others claim :lol:

Ok, I'll give you that, salt is important. And rock. Or a filter. Or lots of water changes.

Guys I have the basics but I been told if I don't get this stuff my tanks gonna die

LOL...do they work at an LFS by chance?

you need to get used to people in this hobby having a rabid need to spend money.

I've never come across a group of people that were so anxious to spend as much as they can whenever they can. (hello PFO Solaris)

Out of all of that, I would say an ATO is probably borderline necessary for a reef tank (especially with Calgary's dry, hot 2 months of summer), everything else really just makes it easier and you feel cooler.

You can accumulate all of those items slowly as you go and find a need for them personally. You can find all of those item regularly used, well cared for and much cheaper than new.

Getting that stuff makes your tank easier to manage, lessening the likelihood of failure.
but no, you do not need that stuff.

You need a tank, stand and light sufficient for growing the types of corals you plan to keep. That can be MH, T5 or LED. You need water movement, ideally through a sump, but not needed. Power heads do the job.
You need rock for filtration. Kind of important. You probably need a heater. Timers are nice to automate the lights. You need a power bar to plug stuff into.

You need something to mix new water in and a hose to move it around.

Nice to have items:
Sump to hold heaters and the skimmer you may want to use. Good idea, but not absolute.
Return pump to get water back to tank.
Drilled tank is nice, you can use hang on overflow.
Media reactors, for anything you may decide you need, assessed on what the tank is doing.
Test kits. Buy good ones.

Apex, ask for one for Xmas.

67g tank, 20g sump
7 fish. Heavily fed and stocked with coral.
Vertex 150 skimmer.
2 aqueon heaters.

I don't own any of that stuff....
I use tap water.
Cheap Chinese lighting.
Coralife salt (a brand everyone seems to hate)
my ATO is me filling an ice cream bucket with tap water and a drop of prime dechlorinator and dumping that in my sump when the return starts to suck air and make annoying sounds.
I don't think I'd know how to use any of that other stuff even with reading all the posts on here lol
Once monthly 5-10 gallon water changes.
And my tanks been fine for 3 years. SPS, LPS, Softies, all grow fine. Sometimes a fish will randomly disappear, but that's happened twice I think with this group in the 3 years.

Lol them LFS guy eh . I mean what maintenance is a must every month, because people are saying u need to does this dose that, add this add that. This is a very confusing hobby lol.

Are hang on overflows safe?

Yes, you may have to dose this and that, depending on lots of things. You can dose manually, or buy a doser, or a Ca reactor, or a kalk reactor.

Mostly :)

Good ones are.

Lifereef are the cream of the crop.

DO NOT get a cpr or anything that relies on a pump to restart siphon.

With proper design, set up and flow, hang on overflows are just as reliable as drilled aquarium overflows are.

I used one for years, this however requires a maintainance schedule. If it fails, a potentially bad thing can happen.

To start, water changes should really be it.

if you start to keep some corals, you may find you need to start dosing this or that.

Lots of beautiful tanks out there with no dosing what so ever.

I might add that there are several nice tanks that are skimmerless as well.

If all you are going to have is fish and some soft coral you don't need any type of dosing or reacting at all. Out of that list the only thin I wouldn't live without is and auto top off. They are $100 and you don't have to worry about evaporation. My 125 gallon tank goes through 2 gallons of water a day, I don't want to have to worry about that. I go away a lot too, its nice to put down 15 gallons of fresh water and take off and not have to worry.

I honestly think it depends on husbandry and time invested...

In Alberta I would strongly suggest using RO/DI water as the water is not the greatest over there... In Vancouver the water is actually quite good although you never know when the city cleans the water and with what.

Ato - is it necessary? Not really but then that adds to the husbandry of the tank (manual topoffs). For example, I hated doing water changes so I added a Apex DoS pump and it automatically changes 10g of water per week..

Apex - is it necessary? not really but then you need to manually monitor turn on/off when needed. BRS has a really good vid on controllers and why you want one; watch it and if any of it is relevant to what you need, then you need a controller of some sort. I killed all the fish in a tank due to a heater failure before, so a controller became mandatory after that...

Do you need media reactors? - depends on how you plan on removing Nitrates/Phosphates

Do you need a dosing pump - not really but then be prepared to dose Alk/CA every day to keep the parameters up all depending on what you stock in the tank and the growth of coraline algae... Also its not recommended dosing Alk buffers all at once as it can cause major swings and precipitation... for example my system is 6 months old now and I dose 82ml of Alk and Ca solution every day... I'd be killing the tank if i dosed 80ml of soda ash all at once...

I would argue that , coraline algae if enough of it can drop a dKH a day or more it consumes as much as hard corals do , and alot of people run carbon or gfo in a softie tank while yes you can certainly be more sparse on it you still don't want nutrient problems , a fowlr should be treated the same as a reef it's needs are pretty much identical :)

Also I totally forgot to add, but the most important factor is what are you looking to stock the tank with?

Fish and rock only?
Softie tank
LPS tank
Mixed reef
SPS tank

Depending on what you stock the tank with, you will need a very constant level of stability, especially for SPS

Coraline will take a long time to form in great enough concentration for it to make any impact on your dkh. In fact, it's not common for coraline to become a problem in tank that don't already dose.

Regular water changes will alleviate any nutrient issues as well along with any toxins softies might secrete.

Well.......


Why wouldn't you think coraline wouldn't consume the alk that's already there , the same way had corals or some invertebrates do? Are you saying that coraline does not consume alkalinity and calcium cause I can link you to a hundred sources that prove it does and does so quite a bit . ....and that is fact my friend ;)

Water changes are a poor excuse for nutrient export I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings saying this but it's true and again I can prove it if you like .....just so we can make sure what's fact and what's not ;)

That's the problem with forums you just get plain wrong info that claim to be facts lol

Of course coraline consumes dkh.

What I'm saying is that you need a fair amount of coraline to affect your dkh...you also need alot of other calcium eating corals for it to even matter to the rest of the tank.

It takes time for coraline to grow..especially in a tank that isn't being dosed at all.

So worrying about it in a brand new tank is just overkill.

if you buy LR that is absolutely covered in coraline, you may need to worry about it...maybe.

Please do forward me any information you have that proves that water changes offer poor nutrient export.

I have ran skimmerless tanks for years using only WC as nutrient export.

Heres a blurb from wet web media for ya...
Water Changes

Another one of the most basic aspects of aquarium husbandry (and one of the best means of achieving nutrient control and export!) is the performance of regular, modest water changes in your system. In my opinion, smaller, more frequent water changes are preferred over larger, less frequent ones, and are much less labor-intensive. Try changing as little as 5% of tank volume on a twice-weekly basis, and you’ll be astounded at the difference this will make in your system! Fish will be livelier and more colorful, corals will open up like you’ve never seen them do before, and levels of dissolved organic substances, such as nitrate and phosphate, will decrease significantly. Frequent water changes allow the aquarist to help dilute and reduce the concentration of waste products from the system before they begin to accumulate as nutrients. This, in turn, will result in less potential for nuisance algae growth, and a more stable system.

Remember to use high-quality source water when mixing up your saltwater for water changes. Be consistent, methodical, and siphon out as much detritus as you can from the rockwork and other areas from the aquarium. Frequent water changes also give the hobbyist the added advantage of being “in touch” with the system on a very regular basis, resulting in a better understanding of just what’s going on within his or her aquarium. As the old hobby saying goes, “nothing good happens quickly in a marine system,” so the benefits of frequent water changes will begin to manifest themselves gradually-but they will become obvious after a brief period of time. Give more frequent water changes a try!

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nutrientcontrol.htm

I do totally agree on your opinion on online forum information, however.

Sorry my bad what I should have said is unless done in large amounts water changes are a poor nutrient export:)

Can you forward me the articles where that is stated please?

If you read that article from wet web media, or the conscientious marine aquarist, which was written by Robert Fenner (who I can't help but trust) you will read that more frequent smaller water changes are actually preferable to larger water changes less often.

Very possible there has been some new research on this, maybe that is what you are referring to?

Can you please post some links to the articles you mentioned that state this as fact?

I would be very interested to read them.

I can see smaller more frequent water changes being better as far as replenishing elements and keeping the tank a little more stable. When it comes to reducing nitrates though larger water changes are obviously better as you are removing more at once , as opposed to smaller more frequent water changes where you keep replacing some of the new water that was just changed. Simple math and I'm pretty sure this topic has been beaten to death on here many times lol.

I dunno.

All due respect, as I've seen your tanks.

I think I'll stick with Fenner on this one.

I've never seen this topic being discussed before, I'll do a search and see what has been said.

Again from wet web media...

"Frequent water changes allow the aquarist to help dilute and reduce the concentration of waste products from the system before they begin to accumulate as nutrients."

So it's not just simple math...

Hoping to see some of the articles Reefwars was talking about...maybe you can reference a few?

Here is an awesome read on water changes and Nitrate reduction...

In this study, they actually find that there is virtually no difference from smaller regular changes to larger monthly changes, so long as the total changed volume is the same...

Water changes are a good way to help control certain processes that serve to drive reef aquarium water away from its starting purity. Some things build up in certain situations (organics, certain metals, sodium, chloride, nitrate, phosphate, sulfate, etc.), and some things become depleted (calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, strontium, silica, etc.). Water changes can serve to help correct these imbalances, and in some cases may be the best way to deal with them. Water changes of 15-30% per month (whether carried out once a month, daily or continuously) have been shown in the graphs above to be useful in moderating the drift of these different seawater components from starting levels. For most reef aquaria, I recommend such changes as good aquarium husbandry. In general, the more the better, if carried out appropriately, and if the new salt water is of appropriate quality.

Calcium and alkalinity, being rapidly depleted in most reef aquaria, are not well controlled, or even significantly impacted by such small water changes. In order to maintain them with no other supplements, changes on the order of 30-50% PER DAY would be required. Nevertheless, that option may still be a good choice for very small aquaria, especially if the changes are slow and automatic.

Happy Reefing!

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/#5

Mixing and changing 5% twice a week sounds like work. I've seen the math sequences showing frequent small does not out dilute less frequent large. It is simple math.
But regardless of math (who can trust that stuff anyway), doing twice weekly water changes sounds like work. Worth mentioning that twice. And 3 years down the road, is it something that you can maintain, each and every week? Maybe, maybe not. I do 50g change twice a month, works well, everything is happy and it takes 40 minutes of my time in a month.

Yes, I've seen that article, and others, I believe Randy even wrote something about it. Still think it's dumb, and a lot of work. I'll stick with big. Hate work :)

Here is an article by RHF on water changes: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/

I think the summary is that the difference between doing 1 30% water change vs 30 1% water changes is about 5% (it's been a while since I read it, don't recall the exact number) in terms of nutrient export. He argues that frequent small changes are easier to do, remove the need to heat the new water, and help keep parameters more stable than less frequent large changes.

So assuming this is true, let's say the difference is negligible, then doing 30 times more work results in negligible change. Right?
Heating water is nothing, parameters should be stable already or you have other issues, and proper design and planning make any size change easy. My 50g water change takes about 3 minutes of actual hands on time, and another 10 to set up and add salt. Let's call it 15 min twice a month. Versus how much effort to do 8 or more water changes a month? For no difference.

Again as your not seeing the picture and yes I would agree that smaller more consistent water changes are better then less frequent water changes but that's not what I'm saying ....water changes are a poor way to export nutrients ....all you've done is diluted a small amount of nutrients that will likely be replaced and then some by next week's small dilution , I'll get you something in return once I'm not on my phone but the idea of all this IS NOT to remove nitrates and phosphates it's more to export the build up of metals and replace elements ....the removal of nutrients is a small bonus bot the sole purpose ; )

Sorry Double post

Anyone remember the apples and oranges math lol add an orange take away 90% of an apple etc etc. This isn't a new topic at all, so the question isn't does water changes need to happen i think we can all agree it does but not for the sole purpose of removing nutrients that's just expensive and unnessary :)

So back to the coraline lol if it doesn't use up much dkh then why am I dosing over 100mls a day in a zoanthid only sysyem system ? I use h2ocean salt and do on average 25% water changes and that salt has a high dkh in bucket of around 10. No sand no rock no hard corals just egg crate and tons of zoanthids ....and coraline of course

I have to dose to keep coraline alive or my alk drops fast , it's sad but it's fact.

Even if I scrape and make the tanks new which I just did it doesn't stop it for long coraline for me grows fast in weeks I have a tank covered again but if I stop the dosing then my alk and cal levels won't stay up

Coralline will suck up butt loads of alkalinity (and calcium to match). Most of my clients' tanks need alkalinity supplementation and most of them are only lightly stocked with corals.

It really does and I'll be the first to say it sucks hard lol I would like not to dose but the option simply isn't there .........i have to dose to kerp the coraline alive lol now from what the Internet and forms tell me a water change should be all I need but it's not and alot of people find them selves in a similar boat:) it's not just coraline there are other sinks but coralines am effects are quite noticeable in comparison

It's not 30 times more work.

You keep a large bucket of mixed salt and a pitcher.

Every couple days, scoop a pitcher out of your tank, then replace it with a pitcher from your mixed barrel...

Easy peezy...

You should also the consider the cost, space taken and time taken to build your 3 minute 50 gallon system.

It's not for everyone...even if it's a superior option.

Reefwars, unless you can show me some documentation where all of a sudden water changes have gone from being great for nutrient export to poor to somehow poor, I'll have to chalk it up to your opinion.

Maybe one that's based on lfs info more so than anything else?

Good theory to sell more equipment.

I have posted a couple that indicate they are excellent means for removing them....with the added benefit of replacing consumed elements and trace metals.

For goodness sakes, just google water change nutrient export and enjoy the wonders of the Internet..you don't have to take it from me. You can see the same said by multiple, respected reef enthusiasts.

Has there been some new research on this?

Please post the articles, as I hAve, that as you say, state your claim as scientific fact.

I'll also reiterate

Of course coralline will consume dkh (yes, obviously calcium too).

No one is refuting this well known fact.

It won't be an issue until you have lots of coralline with alk and calcium in perfect balance which promotes both their consumption.

If you're just starting a tank, as is the op, it is a non issue unless your rocks are extremely coralline covered.

Regular water changes would and are more than enough to subsist your coralline growth and then some in a newly established system.

Especially a smaller one.

Buying a doser on a new tank because you're worried about your corallines consumption is silly.

Sorry.

You've been practicing that math stuff. Good :)

Wonderful thing about this hobby, we all get to do things differently. You make small changes, I'll make big. Easy peasy.

Not me.

I'm switching to medium water changes.