Please Help, this is breaking my heart
 

Hey a\ALL
I made a post a few days ago about my stressed / sick dommino damsels. Although things steted to look up for a day or two they are worse now. The larger of the two (the one which I was aking about in my other post) is now spending most of his time on his side in a hole in the live rock. He comes out at feeding or when there is a sudden movement in front fo the tank. When he soes come out he swims eraticlally now.
The smaller one sosent seem as bad, he seems to be rubbing/scratching himself up against the rocks but stills wims ok. He is also still eating well.

The fish almost look like they have specs of dust on them.
I am assumming they have got some kind of parasite. Is there anything I can do for them that is safe for the rest of the tank ( hermits, snails, live rock ? ) Normally I'd be taling to my local dealer but they are on holdidays , I feel really bad for the fish and it starting to really upset me not being able to do anything .

Nothing new has been added to the tank lately, this all just seemed to start out of the blue. They are the only 2 fish in the tank and have been doing well for about 3 or 4 weeks up until last thursday night when I first noticed something was wrong and started the other thresad (Help, Domminos not doing well)

I've also noticed the development of what aapeears to be small white spots onthe tnaks glass . Upon clser inspection these a re actuyally little animals with legs. Searching on the forums, they appear to be a type of jelly fish i read about here http://www.rshimek.com/odd_critters....Around%20Tanks
From reading the info there, it dosent seem like these would be the cuilprit


BTW, tnak is a 33 gal,
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates <10ppm
PH 8.2
Salinityh 1.024
Temp is 78

The tank has about 50 lbs of reef sand, 30 lbs live rock, multiple hermits and snails, a red mushrrom, and the 2 damsels

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do for these ppor guys ? The larger one seems to be gettng worse, Im scared if I dont do some thing for him he's not gonna make it. My dealer isnt gonna be back for about another weekk i think :(

I'd do a partial water change, make sure there is plenty of O2 in the water (add an air stone). Since they're still eating, try feeding them some fresh garlic soaked food.
Search on ich and velvet to see if you can compare what your fish have to pics on the subject.

Hi

Thanks for the suggestions. I've done acouople partial water chances over the past few days ( apporx 5 gal at a time)
I could try ading an )2 pump, Ill have ot see what I've got kicking around. Not sure that will help though, as this seems to be something that has recently started very abruyptly The fish dont seem to be struggling for air, not going to the srface or anything
Gonna try the garlic for sure

Have looked a qutie a bit of Ich rleated info, dosetn really seem to be it. I havent read much on vlevet yet though, guess thats next
Any more ideas anyone ? Please let me know, as I said before, its not much fun watching your fish slowly suffer and continue to get worse

Somebody has to have more ideas!! Let's help the fishies, guys & gals! :biggrin:

Maybe a fresh water dip and into a QT tank then leave your tank fishless for a month or two. Do the spots cover the entire fish? Any pics?

As the last post said, they need to be moved a QT. Also need an idea of what disease it is, to suggest a treatment. Its sounds like ick to me but hard to say without a pic or actually seeing them. If it is a copper based treatment in quarentine would help, if its not to late.

Or if its in very early stages, improving water conditions by the water changes and Brads suggestion of garlic may help.

There are othere treatments like Melefix and the such, for other ailments, but most need to be used separate from a reef tank also.

it sounds liek ICK ,but i thought tha damsels and wrasses dont get ICK ,or maybe i have been misinformed.. But i dont think so and my experinces are from my dad Doug... any how hope this can clear its self up


mike

I would set up a Q-tank to treat them.

The advantage of this is you can use the Q-tank in the future to quarantine new arrivals to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.

I'm not sure about the life cycle of these organisms but you would want to leave your main tank empty of fish for some time, perhaps a month or more.

Another option would be to post pics of your fish on the "Fish diseases" section of Reef Central to get a positive ID.

If it is ICK then dont you have to leave the tank free of fish for months or so


Just curious

mike

If it is ick, my advice is oxygenate heavily with airstones or skimmer (Skimmer is better because it doesn't produce salt spray). Ick is not hard to beat. Fish can survive it.

My tank has ick from the very beginning and most of my new fish seem to get it when I introduce them to my tank. However, they all survive and become immune to it on their own without treatment, garlic, etc. Maybe cleaner shrimps help a little, maybe not.

Here is Moo when I first got her

http://www.hyperdream.com/~samw/reef...8_IMG_crop.jpg

Even Moo kicked icked and lived happily ever after for years. Before I bought my skimmer, all of my fish got ick and died. After I got the skimmer, ick never killed another fish. At least, I've never seen a dead fish in my tank with ick since then. Ick is still in my tank.

If it is ick 6 weeks min. It's a pita but I would just do it, why set yourself up to repeat the same problem your having now over and over again. Remove the fish to a properly set up Qt, let the main tank tank go fallow. Follow one of the treatments for ick, make sure the life cycle is broken. Down the road QT newcomers.

:( :( Thanks fro everyones suggestions but it was just too late, I woke up this am and the larger fish had died during thenight, and the smaller one was just barely ahnging on, he passed a hour or so later. I'm sorry I didnt post sooner to save everyone from wiritng but I really want up to it. I was really surprised at how attatched I was to two fish I had only had for a month, I'm gonna really miss them:(

I still dont know what it was that killed them. The spots ont he fish were very small, almost looked like dust ( sorry I dont have a pic). It was all over them today, even a bit on their eyes. I felt so bloody horibel that I counldnt help them but even with everything I was reading I couldnt figure what it was. It kinda seemed like ich but I dont know . Does ich usually koll this fast ? There was absolutely no sign of anything worng until last fri night when I cam e home and the larger fish had lost most of his color ( it retuned the next day). After that, they just started acting strange at times , swimming eratically, etc as i metioned above.. Both fish were still eating well at non yesterday.

These fish were the only 2 fish I have have ever had in the tank. I have had them 4 weeks to the day. Now, does this mean that they had to have the disease when i purchased them m ? O r is it possible that I introduced the ddisease on some live rock Everything I have ever purchased for theis tank came from the same place (they arecurrently on holidays so I cant check if they are having problems) as well. The only new things I introduced recently was 2 weeks ago ai added another 9.5 lbs of olive rock and a red mushroom, nothing since then.

So, now that this has happened I guess its time to get a Q- tank although Im not sure it would have helped in this case as the fish were fine for so long. Now I guess I have to let t he main tank sit for qutie some time , I m hoping the desease will not be able to survive indefinately w/o a host fish Seems like I just fisnhed doing that as I hd just comploeted cycling the tank before I got those 2 fish

Anyhow, thanks to all of you whol tried to hlep me with this, I really appreciate it. Hopefully I'll figure out what exactly it was and where it came from. I'll also be investing in a Q'tank I guess although I had only palnned on have about 4 fish intotal and they all came from the same dealer, but I guess that really dosent matter in the end, they should probably all spend some time in the q-tank before being allowed int he main tank

What an upsetting day :(

Sorry for your loss man. That sucks... :sad:

Yeah it does suck, the worst part was sitting there for 2 hrs with the small fish at the glass as he died. Not something I really want to repeat . Like I said before, I would have never believed fish could be such pets , they really do get little personalities and earn to r recognize different ppl .

I was just looking athe picture avove in this post of " moo" and the spots looked similar to the ones on her, except today there was alot more of them. I am ssuming that it was probably ich, I hope my delaers fish will be ok when they return home from their trip

Sorry about your fish.

Sure sounds like ick, esp. on the eyes in the latter stages. However its strange they were fine for 4 weeks and then developed it. Usually it comes from a fish with it being introduced to the tank, thus the quarentine.

I cant remember off hand the time needed fishless to make sure your ick free. I think its about 6 weeks also.

yes its 6 weeks minimum...

Hi
I went back through my juournal and I actually got the fish 4 weks ago today, so it would have been 3 weeks to the day that I fist noticed something wrong ( that was the night the larger fish was all pale when I came home but still no sign of any wiite dots or spots on them)
How long do you all usually keep new fish in a q-tank ? I'm really surprised that something didnt show up sooner.
When I look over my "journal" , I was correct, the only things added since the fish was the 9 lbs of live rock and the one little rcok with a red mushroom and what appears to be a type of zoo.

From looking at this info, I'd assume the fish must have had the disease when i purchased them or at least had already been carrying the disease . Would this be a correct assumption ? I was under the impression that my dealer had already had these fish for some time before I picked them up as they were getting very low on fish stocks and had been plainning to bring in another large amount of fish very soon. Also, like I mentioned , anything that has been added to my tank, has all come from the same place so I should be able to easily trace the deisae back , something in their tanks must be sick or carrying the disease. I'll see what I can find out as soon as they return form their holiday.
.

Hi, have you seen this article?
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/
It gives a good explaination of ick's life cycle, how to treat and how to prevent. Also gives the how to's and why to QT.

No, I havent read that one yet, will read it thisevening though . Thanks fro the link

Hey , one thing I wanted to ask, is it best to toally leave the tank as is for a period of time say 6 or 8 weeks without adding anything at all ? Or do I just need to refrain from adding any fish ?
What I am geting at is I'm wodering if I can adda coral or two during this period of time or can they also be affected by ich ?
I had just beeen planning on adding a small coral in the near futre but now that this has happened I'm not sure if I should just leave it totally along for .All my water chemistry is still fine, ) ammonia, 0 nitrtietes, and less than 10 ppm Nitrates PH 8.2
Hehe not sure if I can handle looking at my tank of rocks for another couple months , need a little color or something to look at . Pretty amazing how much 2 little fish can add to the overall appearance of something. Going back to watching the hermits and sanils is gonna be tough

Technically I believe ick can come in on rock or coral, but not nearly as likely as coming in on a fish. It does need a fish host to complete it's life cycle. If there is no fish in the tank the paracite will die, so theres no reason not to add to the tank as long as everything else is ok. Just start counting the "fallow" days once the last piece is added.

Wow, that is an awesome read with lots of good info on ICK. I wish I had read that a week or two ago. The suggestion made for a q-tank/hosiptal tnak in the article is great, much more convienent than keeping the tank running all the time. The life cycle of ICK is also well explained, it really demonstrates how it can thrive in the aquarium

There may already be something similar, but wouldnt it be good to have a section or a " sticky" that contained links to good/helpful articles that provide info on common issues that occur in marine/reef aquariums It would almost be like an FAQ but a "favorite links". Maybe a new forum section where titles of posts refer to the topic of the link and the message body would just contain the link . It might make for a great resource, a person could just go to the section and scan the different titles until he found what he's looking for . It could very easily gorw into a huge source of info if ppl would just quickly post the link of any good articles they've read Just a thought :)

Ich doesn't kill that fast.

Sounds like Marine Velvet. YIKES! Hence you saying it was like dust all over them. Yup that sounds like velvet! Very hard to tell signs & usually a month parasite cycle complete and fish all passed.

Damn I hate diseases. To be on the safe side. I would leave your tank fowl without fish for 6 weeks & QT everything IMO. I learned the hard way.

So sorry to hear about your loses. * Hugs *

Is velvet a partasite also , like ICH ? I t only took 5 days to kill both my fish from the time I noticed anything wrong. B otyh continued eating well until the night before they died.
The people I bought the fish from are due back this week so Im gonna be interested to see how their tnak (the one these fish were in) aired.
Everything that has been put in my tank ( live rock, fish, 1 rock w/red mushroom) has all come from the same place so I am aussiming the isease , whatever it was, must have originated from them, I dont see how it could have been introduced any other way
Gonna do some seaches on velvet and do some reding, thanks fro the comments
Still appreciatte any comments as I have bene having a hard time deter4mining what desease it was for sure. I think if it was ich, it wouldnt have killed the fish so fast and the intial outbreak wouldnt have been so sever, but I could be mistaken

If Reef central was up and running I could direct you to some really great info to read on different types of disease and the signs to look for.

Amyloodinium ocellatum more commonly known as "Marine Velvet" is a parasite much like ich. The difference between the two is ich is small salt like dots that usually cover all through the fins, body, even eyes of the fish like "Samw" on here posted for you. Ich usually doesn't kill the fish unless they are covered and not apply to fight it.

But when you mentioned that both fish died rapidly, had a dust like appearance. Sounds to me like it could be signs of Velvet.
Signs are:
-Heavy Breathing
-swimming near the surface
- Dust like appearance through fins, large white smudged dots
-scratching their bodies up against rocks or objects
-twitching
-frayed fins

Did you have some of these signs. Its usually only seen if you watch fish carefully and notice thier normal habits different. The parasites life cycle acts very quick and if not treated right away you lose your fish before you knew what hit yeah.

IMO, to completely rid of any disease for future fishies & losses you have to keep your tank FISH FREE, for at least 30 days (6 weeks recommended)

Hi bulletsworld

I did have some of the symptoms you mention ( if you go back to my original postas in the thread " help, damsels not doing well' I basically documented everything, even near the start of this thread I noted most of it.

It came on very quick came home one night and the one fish was very aple, almost like she had lost her pigment. Must have been very stressed over something, original infrection maybe ?
After that, she definately go her colro bacck but was not herself at all. She swam erratically, rubberd against rcoks, " hovered " pratially on her side , like on an angle instead of vertically in the water etc. The whie spots showed up qucikly after that, tgetingworse each day ande ven getting some on her eyes. Soon afterwards the samller fish started showing similar symtoms. Both fish continued eating well until the eve before they died, it was really a hard thing to watch and I felt so bad that I couldnt/ didnt help them. By the final day, they had a lot of white spots on them , basically covered looking much like dust from abit of a distance. Up close you could see all the individual white dots. It was 5 days from first sigen to the end.

Now being that these were my fist fish ever, ther possibly may have been some white spots earlier and maybe I just didnt notice. However, there was no change in their behaviour until that first day when the larger fish turned very pale for about 12 hrs. I watched the fish's behaviour very clse which is whyb I know ther ewas no change until that day. Every day , I would spend some time up close to the glass making visuall contact with them, they really seemed to enjoy " visiting". Once they started to get sick, this changed quite a bit and it took some work to get them to come up close
It was rally fustrating especially when I had alredy had them for just over 3 weeks with out any problems, then all the sudden , boom.

I definately plan on keeping the tank without any fish for at least 6 weeks, maybe even 8 . I am also gonna pick up a samll 10 gal tank to use as a q-tank from now on. Do you all q tank everythign you add including rock and coral ? I guess you must or it really wouldnt be worth doing it with the fish would it ?

Everything else in the tank seems fine, al lthe crabs sanils etc are fine still. Chemistry is normal and temp is 78 as always Like I mentioned , ppl from which I purchased all my stuff will be back this week so I can contact them and see if anything showed up in any of thier tanks. I'll be really confused if nothing shwoed up there, that wouldnt make much sense

Captainhemo,

Yup seems like Velvet to me. Its a nasty parasite! :evil:

Definately leave the tank fowl (FISH FREE) for over 6 weeks.

I QT EVERYTHING now. I learned the hard way and lost to many cool fish due to diease. It seems like most fish in the large LFS have something.

Heartbreaking this hobby can be. But you know what, I admire you for being able to go on. I read alot of people quitting after a heartbreaking event where there whole tank was wiped out & all their favorite friends passed. As sad as this may sound, I cried my little eyes out when my first baby porcupine Puffer died (puff ditty). I loved that fish is character so much. It was heartbreaking to watch puffy take his last breath. I called my BF back then crying, he thought I lost my marbles. I was so sad and feeling helpless.

So I admire you going on.

Pm me if you would like me to send you any info. Reef central http://www.reefcentral.com/ has a great forum on disease & cures.

Best of luck to you.

*hugs *

Lee

Hi ,

Thanks fro the comments, its much appreciated.

I was finally able to get out to my dealers. The remaining Dommino's in the same tank mine came from are just fine. I dont get it.
They are the only two fish ever to be in my tank, everything else in my tank is also from the same place and none of thir tanks have any problems .
One thing they did tell me is that alot of fish carry the ICH parasite but dont actually get sick until something either stress's them severly, or compromises their immune systems. Now if this is true, wouldnt you see the ICH each time the parasites cycle reached the " on fish " stage ?
Also from the picutres I have seen now, I'd have to say it looked more like ICH but a very sever e amount of it
I've read alot of the reefcentral disease section, but its really hard to tell the diff between velvet and ICH unless you actually see them both and compare them
The other thing I noticed was some white spots on the galss of my tank. Upon closer indspection, they are alive and have legs !! I did some poking around on reefcentral, and found an article int he " ask dr. xxx" section . It looks as if they are type of jelly fish which can show up at times in the aquarium. It says they are ahrmless so I'm assuming they were not a contributing factor. The article had phots as well and it definately looked like the same thing. Has anyone else had similar " white spots with legs" on the glass of their tanks ? The article also said they can dissapear as qucik as they showed up.

At this point all I know is the tank is gonna stay wo fish for 6 weeks or more as I cant seem to find out for sure what it was that killed them. I know that it was a parasite but which one I cant decide. Pictures suggest it was ich but like you said, it dosent usually kill so fast ( less than a week from first sign)
I'm also still very confused about how this even got inthe tank , I really expected tosee some sick fish at my dealers place last night but with everything healthy, even in the same tank as my fish came from, its just added alot more confusion to all this

Yes, the "little spots with legs" are common in newly set up tanks and yes, the will go away.

I still think it was ick from your description. To me the time line also seemed about right for ick.

Sounded like ich to me right from the beginning. Don't be confused about the "supposed" inability to catch ich after the prescribed dormant period is over. I have come to view ich as a deadly form of the common cold. make sure everything else is fine in the tank and the fish should be able to overcome the everpresent ich. I know many will disagree with this statement and there will be those who will side with me. Just what I have learned after a few decades of keeping fish.

Stressed fish will get ick. How else do they tell you something is wrong.... :razz:

I just threw an icked fish in more suitable accomodations in another tank. NO more ick. (the trigger and grouper seemed to be causing some stress to the heniochus)

Pay attention to what is CAUSING the ick. Then the shrimp/garlic/etc come into play. I can certainly understand how it can be a problem if you are new to the hobby.

Understand what is stressing your fish. It can be as simple as a temp problem, or a flow problem, or an aggressive tankmate, or obviously water quality issues....alkalinity is a big stressor for fish...I found that out years ago with that coral-vital apple juice. :rolleyes:

In the interim, my treatment of choice would be hyposalinity. :mrgreen: