TM balling webinar synopsis
 

Many thanks to those that joined our webinar.

One of the highly important topics that came up was the question of imbalances and as the slide show was clear to show, once explained it makes so much sense. I will try my best to put some of that info here.

If anyone highlights an inaccuracy to what I have written please let me know and I will happily address that in the thread openly.

Hearing about the relationship between the ions of Calcium chloride and sodium Bi-carbonate was fascinating especially how the coral polyp takes in the calcium ion from the calcium chloride element and the carbonate ion from the sodium element and what is left behind is your imbalance.

Left behind is sodium from the Bi-carbonate and chloride from the calcium, these two together of course make sodium chloride, and here lies the imbalance in 3 part, all of a sudden you have extra sodium chloride with no other elements attached to it floating around in your tank, and by doing a water change you are only removing the percentage of that water change of the imbalance.

So if you are dosing 2 or 3 part light systems and rely on water changes alone to address the imbalance you are only removing for example on a 10% water change, 10% of that imbalance.

Now - by adding into the mix Part C the remaining sodium chloride has something to balance it which includes the 70 trace elements

Now of course there is an argument that this system too raises your sodium chloride level, and yes you are right, BUT and here is the defining factor, it is doing it in a balanced format in the same way you would be doing by adding more sea salt to your system, because it is balanced there is no ionic risks, and even the most minimal water change would cater for any salinity rise, however due to being in balance and such a very low level this is not an issue, where as an unbalanced system with just sodium chloride floating about is.

What is an issue however are 3 part or light systems that allow for free amounts of sodium chloride in your system with nothing to balance it allowing for a complete imbalance that can not be addressed wholly by water changes as you only remove the % of water change and as such only remove that % of imbalance.

There is only one way to keep a system in balance when dosing calcium and sodium Bi-carbonate and that is to add in proportion NACL free salt. (Part C)

To make the point clearer, the very first original Sea Salt mix from Tropic marin that still to this day forms the basis of all their salts is a 100% mixture of A B and C of the Tropic Marin Balling system together!

So there is no argument chemistry in itself proves it, if you dose a system with nothing to balance the excess NACL you create an imbalance, and this is where part C comes in which is made up of everythign you find in a sea salt mix including all trace elements without adding additional NACL, hence the term for part C as NACL-FREE sea salt. But lets be clear Part C is not just magnesium as in every other other 3 part system, it is the whole bells and whistles found in sea salt as stated before WITHOUT any NACL component.

This is why Tropic marin balling from the inventor Hans-werner balling is so popular to those that care about doing this 100% right.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, I am still on the steep part of the learning curve. If parts A+B+C=salt mix, could you just not dose anything and do larger water changes to achieve the same result?

Good question and yes if you want to do near 100% water changes a week but even then you would still get depletion of trace elements in between the water changes where as with the TM system these vastly depleted elements are re introduced to your system on a daily basis through dosing.

Something also to remember you need the free NACL in your tank combined with the ABC to make up NSW not just ABC alone. I missed that point in the quote from your post. So NSW is essentially NACL + ABC (in specific proportions)

But one could also use other trace element supplements along with simple two part dosing to accomplish essentially the same thing.

No sorry 100% incorrect.

Do you know exactly what trace elements are in sea salt exactly and to what required proportion? The whole purpose is to have a balanced system, you cant juggle multiple solutions hoping to get it somewhere roughly right, and by the time you have done all that you might of well spent the money on the proper system.

Many are not even available as an independent system.

I'm pretty sure I can come up with plenty of information on what trace elements are in sea salt and how they are consumed etc. There's no magic there. There are plenty of companies selling trace element supplements of various sorts. Complete or not.

I know you are selling this stuff and it's your job to promote it but let's not pretend there is some special magic in the Tropic Marin system. It's Calcium Chloride, Sodium Bicarbonate and a trace element solution. And honestly, every Ca and Alk supplement on the market are ridiculously overpriced, probably overly dilute and can be replicated easily at home for much less money.

I'm not trying to make this a dig on the Tropic Marin product which is probably good and does the job but you are making it sound like super magical solutions to maintaining our reef chemistry that can't be accomplished with other products and I think there are many ways to accomplish the same thing.

But once you have gone to all that effort to try and cobble together all these elements it will cost you probably double what a set of Tropic marin would and then you have to go to all the effort to try and make it work, is it really worth it trying to do it DIY hoping you may save some money which ultimately after all that effort I am pretty confident you would not.

But for sure please post here your DIY recipe and costs it would be a great exercise.

Nobody is pretending its magic, its reef chemistry, nature sets the rules not us, there is no magic here, I think you would find the seminar very informative to be honest if you think this is all marketing magic

The basics are when you dose 2 part you are left with sodium chloride as explained above, this imbalances your system. The cure to this is not magic, its basic reef chemistry.

extra sodium chloride is not good, so it needs to be balanced NACL sea salt does this for you. Again wheres the magic here? This is not a marketing made up product, the end result of the product is NSW.

For anyone that fancies the gauntlet of making their own I thought I would share this ;)

Of course you dont need the NCL as that's the part you are trying to balance

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Hows the dosing done Michael? Because to have one sodium ion for every chloride ion, there has to be a ratio of 110.98g of CaCl for every 84.007g of CaHCO (molar masses). Does that satisfy the aprox 10ppm of calcium consumption every 2dkh of alk drop? Because if that amount of grams are not maintained, there will either more be more sodium ions or more chloride ions with an end result of being imbalance.

You should have joined the webinar :mrgreen:

The system comes with a simple mixing ration you follow per 1 USA gallon, you then dose this by a doser.

Part C must be the same dosing rate as I think its part B, but I will double check this for you.

I would have loved to but pulling a 12hrs every day at the university is not an easy work.:razz:

Yah that's what I was thinking: it should come with a specific mixing ratio which cannot be changed for the theory to work. And I am guessing the ratio also maintains 2dkh to 10ppm. Right?

Here are the dosing instructions and recommended concentrations

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When trying to find issue with the system and I am sure many here will try to, remember the person that invented this is still regarded as the leading author on this subject who has world wide respect and acclaim in the industry, he would have in the last nearly 30 years been fielded every possible scenario.

I do not pertain to know all the real critical details but I can give you the phone number of the person that does ;) However what we will lay out here in this thread is the important facts that the average hobbyist will understand. if they still do not then please join the next webinar.

If anyone has doubts I will put you in direct contact.

The "additional" trace elements are those above and beyond what is found in NSW which are seen as beneficial elements to your corals also. They are an addition.

That's what I understood as well Michael, you have to dose C the same rate as B.

Quick Q: you have to dose 125ml of A and 125ml of B at the same time or multiple of that right depending on the depletion rate? Or can the amount of ml of each solution be changed? I can understand you have to dose the same amount of B and C (x ml) but what about A and B?

I haven't been following all that closely so excuse me if this question has been answered. Is this system available? Have any been distributed to retailers and what is the approximate start up cost ?

So are you suggesting part C contains all of the above?!? And if so then that would be exceedingly difficult to do unless mixing it up in extremely large batches as some of those elements really are "trace" elements. Additionally, many are not necessary for the health of our reef inhabitants. So it's not like that chart is a compilation of what is in part c; or any synthetic salt for that matter.

I understand completely what you are saying about balanced dosing and imbalances that may occur depending on how elements are being consumed and then dosed. The point I am trying to make is that, while the TM products may very well be good and an easy solution , I think it's fair to say that the same thing could be accomplished with other dosing regimens and other trace element solutions that contain the elements that are consumed and used by corals etc.

I just think it's a bit of marketing speak to suggest that only Tropic Marin provides a balanced dosing solution and by doing it other ways you are creating or feeding an imbalance. That may be true if someone is only dosing two part or two part plus Mg. But I suspect most dose other trace element complexes as well from numerous other brands and we don't see reef tanks using other products crashing left right and center or going wildly out of balance all over the place.

Sure, the TM products may very well be a good and easy solution but other options exist to do essentially the same thing and they don't involve mixing up your own trace element complexes one element at a time etc.

Just to reiterate, I'm not knocking the TM solution as I'm sure it works as advertised. Just trying to have a balanced view as to what it's accomplishing and how it might compare to other options.

And just to add one thing, some of the trace elements listed in your chart would also be extremely expensive and or controlled materials so they are unlikely to be found in the part c complex.

Hiya

For your area Bayside has it and another big shipment just left, I think Pats pets may have it also but I know he was runnign low and off sick right now so have not been able to touch base with him.

Wais aquarium has it, so does aquaurium illusions, Concepts has it coming in and a few other stores in the region.

A and B you adjust to meet your tanks requirements.

There is a reason why this does not effect any balance it was explained last night but my mind is fried right now, but drop an email here and Lou will explain all

office@tropicmarin-usa.com

Thanks Michael. I will try to email this weekend when I get some time. I understand the chemistry behind it but I still have some questions :razz:

Hi Ron,
You either believe in the worlds respected author on the subject or not, we cant make anyone not be skeptical, you are basing these arguments on skepticism rather than any facts, we are just highlighting actual facts here.

Put it another way, Hans-werner would not be in the position he is today if half you said was actually true, we have to be realistic to his years of credentials. I could understand being skeptical if this was some new funky product from an unheard of guy but this is coming from the man himself so many have tried to copy since.

I can only suggest you join the next seminar, you can then ask all the questions directly. I really cant say anymore than that.

For sure Lou is very reachable, he also welcomes phone calls if that's better for you.

Its alright. I am an email guy :mrgreen:

In the new year Hans-Werner is doing an online hosted RECORDED seminar for everyone to refer back to, we should be one of the first to have a copy of this and will post it here the moment we get it.

I will advertise the next LIVE seminar for the first week of January, I will try and shoot for a Sunday evening.

Now you are distracting from the point by simply trying to tout HWB's credentials. Those aren't being questioned. And don't take this as a dig at him but I've seen plenty of products with other well respected people's names on them that delivered less than promised. So simply having a name on it shouldn't be an automatic pass.

Look, I'm not trying to be confrontational but by posting a chart of all the trace elements found in NSW and implying that that is what HWB and TM are providing in this dosing solution is disingenuous. There is no way that he is including elements such as mercury, lead, uranium, gold, platinum, thorium, osmium, hafnium etc.

Also inert gasses such as He, Ar, Ne etc are found in trace amounts in sea water because they dissolve from our atmosphere but have no biological function as well and I doubt you will find those in Part C. Shall I go on?

I have extensive experience in chemistry and biochemistry. I'm not disputing his premise that simple two part dosing may lead to imbalances in important trace elements or in NaCl. What I am saying is that there are several ways to skin a cat and that two or three part dosing along with other brands of trace element solutions that contain those trace elements know to be important to, and used by, corals etc. can accomplish a similar result. That's it.

I guess I just have a problem with the suggestion that only the TM solution will get you to the right end point. I'm sure it works as advertised. That's not being questioned. But other options may work just as well. That's my point.

This hobby tends to be so fad and trend driven with many people chasing the latest thing or product as if it's the holy grail that will give them beautiful successful reef tanks. The implication from all your various posts and threads is that the TM Balling method supplements are the one and only way to accomplish balanced dosing. I'm just suggesting that other options might work too.

That and I'm calling BS on your implication that the TM product contains all of the above from your chart. :biggrin:

Think for me it may boil down to cost. Which I can't seem to find yet.

What I learned last night is that part c is all the ingredients normally found in there own salt buckets, less the salt.
So I am waiting for people to just use standard 2 part bulk. And tropic Marin part c
Isn't that still balanced?
They only question that remains is if you believe that TM part a, b are of better purity then bulk.

That's what I am trying to decide

UG Ron, read the post, I said this is what is found in NSW not what is found in Part C of course some elements are not there, the ones that either cant be replicated in any sea salt mixture. common sense, please if we are going to have any debate.

As I said before Ron go for it brother fill ya boots show us your DIY system that can do this, when you have produced a part C with everything in it that NSW has minus the NACL and show us the recipe, I think this is a mute point. :mrgreen:

If your point is other options may work as well, then yes providing they match what is in part C then you are 100% right.

Nobody has said TM has the exclusive on this, its about doing it right, 3 part is not doing it right where the 3rd part is just MG, thats the whole purpose of this thread.

Cost = $49.99 for a starter set. My starter set in my 120 gallon has lasted 6 months, thus far on light loaded tank but increasing.

Hiya

sorry I did not answer all your excellent parts. they all are very valid.

You are completely right the people doing their own 2 part if they add part C then yes you are balancing the equation and as such doing it right.

You are also 100% correct in the purity factor, TM is as pure as you could get, if this is important to you that you know based on the companies ethics that you are getting the best possible salts then TM offer you the kit in an easy to buy solution.

If purity is not a concern to you then go ahead use any 2 part you like just add the part C to the equation.

However when deciding to save a few dollars on cheap off the shelf salts, remember how much you have spent in live stock over a year, high end equipment to keep that live stock going, do you really want to risk that investment on cheap salts? You maybe saving $50 a year but risking $5000 of investment in stock.

The salts are one of the life bloods to your system, you are happy to spend $$$ on a coral so why not on a product to keep that coral healthy?

Ultimately only you can decide what you feel you should risk and spend your money on, but if you go cheap at least add Part C which for 1kg is only going to cost you around $20 and last months.

I will also add, if you are doing a different 3 part right now, either remove the Mg and replace with part C (which container MG in proportion).

This is not all about TM balling being the ONLY way, its about doing Hans-werner ballings method, how you skin that cat is up to you, what other salts you use is up to you, but the important factor to all this IS

PART C

TM offer an off the shelf system with all elements, or they offer an off the shelf separated parts, you choose what you want from there.

But if you are going to dose minerals this way, lets do it right - Balanced ;)

That is something that I said in another thread that got closed :razz: Getting your own phamacetical grade CaCl and NaHCO3 and adding part 3 should be equal to complete balling :razz: But you didn't say anything on that :twised:

I did not really want to have these threads open, DIY 2 part is a heated subject, a few people that follow it do tend to get upset when you point out their cheap or out of balance way more to the point is actually not correct and potentially damaging, as such we decided to go down a more info type of post, where people could then contact us directly should they want further info, just to stop the crazy off the wall debates that we often see.

However I thought I would try just keeping this one open see how it went, so far 90% ok ;) Lots of good questions and answers.

It seems I missed your question or reply which I am sorry about, but yes you are 100% right as above stated, if you can find your own pure salt, then yer for sure go for it, but not everyone wants to store such large quantities you have to buy from the producers and there is a risk of moisture getting to it, as it will soak up humidity in the air, large quantities have to be used quickly just as with small amounts.

So if this is the way you wish to go I will happily supply all day Part C to everyone that wants to do Balling right. Part C is by far not expensive, goes a long way and you know then you are doing things correctly.

There is one other caveat, other companies may too offer an NACL free salt mix, but does it have all the trace elements that make up NSW? If it does not then you still do not have a balanced system. I "personally" do not know of one that does, some others state you have to add 3 different additives to the other salt mixes to add essential elements, but even then it is likely not all of the 70+ required elements are being added, and are you even then getting the right ratio? With TM its a one shot system, the guessing is removed and the cost reduced due to not requiring to add other parts. This is where TM do seem to have the edge. Hans-werner who makes it for TM is not going to short change his own invention so you have reliability in his own research with this product.

Thats the golden nugget to this.

One other small point if you use other parties A and B salts is that you then have to figure out the ratio of strength to get it right, but with TM system all this is done for you.

Only you guys can decide if the small saving is worth all that.

Well instead of using randy's receipe, if someone just create the mixes according to the doc you posted, they should be getting something closer to what TM's balling is; maybe not 100% accurate but hey, some sacrifices have to be made ;) I wouldn't mind trying part C since it kind of makes sense now :) I would consider it more as "adding traces with one powder" instead of all the ionic balances. Fancy words make things look crazy :lol:

I can't believe we've managed to keep our tanks alive for so long without this stuff. I'm pretty confident using the cheap salt as you call it.

I jumped in this bandwagon bill :wink: calcium reactor leaked one too many times. As soon as my salts come in ill post some pics of the new dosing setup.

Well perhaps you could provide a list of exactly what trace elements are in part C? In one post you state that of course it doesn't have ALL the trace elements from NSW but then in this quote you again imply that the TM Part C does have everything that makes up NSW but others don't.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be skeptical but simply trying to achieve clarity here. That big list of all the trace elements in NSW is highly unlikely to all be found in any supplement. TM's or another brand's. It's just not possible, likely, or practical. So TM Part C will have the "essential" trace elements just as several other products likely do.

What I am trying to understand is what makes TM's Balling Part C different and/or superior to trace element products from say KZ or Brightwell or Kent or Thrive etc?

As for the purity of DIY CA or alk etc, let's not get ridiculous. Pretty much any decent DIY source or mix will be more than pure enough for aquarium use. Arm and Hammer baking soda is pure enough. Epsom Salts are pure enough for Mg. Many have used those for years without negative consequences. Anything good enough for human use or consumption is good enough. Even several sidewalk de-icers are more than pure enough sources of CaCl for our uses. And the savings can be quite significant as most of the Ca and Alk supplements I have seen are fairly dilute and expensive in comparison to the amount of say CaCl you can get for DIY supplements or in comparison to using Arm and Hammer baking soda etc. Epsom salts are cheap too for dosing Mg.

Again, I'm not saying that the product isn't good. I may consider using Part C with DIY CaCl and Baking Soda. But I might also, for example, consider KZ's Sea Water Complex All in One which appears to be quite similar.

Hi Ron

Yes Part C has everything you will find in a properly balanced sea salt mix other than NACL. I will see if TM will release the full list, they may not due to obvious commercial reasons.

If other brands of NACL free sea salt mix (part C) have all the same trace elements then yes for sure, as I said there is no exclusive over this but as yet I have not found or been shown one that does.

What makes it superior in my view is that TM are taking the guess work out for you, it is also cheaper and you do not have to do any multi dosing of various elements to try and meet what is provided to you in a simple powder form from TM. Yes there are many brands that offer extra elements to your tank, but as pointed out on the webinar, typically they will offer around 30 of the essential elements, or around that number. So again back to the benefit of TM, it is an off the shelf easy to use all in one product.

I am not going to get into the argument of the risks of cheap salt, but throwing drive way mix into your system I am sorry that is one step over the edge, but I covered the whys and where for's in regards to using a known pure source, as I said then you spend thousands of dollars on corals etc on your tank I am at a loss why someone would risk that no matter how small they feel the risk is on salts you cant prove as pure. The salt mix is the life blood of the tank, surely a little extra spent to use a known qualified mix worth the expense?

I regards to just using a balanced sea salt mix, this was covered in the very first opening synopsis. If you do no 3 part or 2 part dosing at all, in between water changes you will get troughs in the amount of elements remaining in the system, so you will no doubt argue that you will then do for example (lets go large) a 25% water change weekly?

When you remove 25% of the water you are replacing it with only 25% of the depleted elements.

Worse from this IS doing a non balanced 2 or 3 part system and relying on a water change, again you are only removing the % of water change and that % of imbalance, its simple maths, there is no argument to that one.

With a proper balanced balling system you are keeping the elements and stability where it should be in between those water changes, eliminating any depletion.