Powder blues at J&L
 

J&L Aquatics has powder blue tangs on sale with the caption

"These will go fast"

Sadly; :cry: They are right.

It's odd to see them with the banner, "SALE!"

:? Maybe they're on special because they don't last as long as other fish?

Sadly, you got that right.

Re: Powder blues at J&L
 

Maybe the sign meant that they will die fast. :?: :?:

Sadly, I am sure you are correct.

hey naesco, long time no see! where you been, man?

:wink:

I don't buy fish that are that large, but I have heard they are really hard to keep. I'm kinda dissapointed at J & L for bringing them in... if they brought them in knowingly. If not.... I hope they reamed out the supplier.

Just going on what I have heard though, like I say, I've never bought fish 6 inches long.

aquarium allusions has a pile of them in quarantine right now. unfortunate, because so many people will jump on them. nicest tang by far i think. :? same as selling nudibranchs and gorgonians i guess.

Yeh next time we go in we should all remind them that if a reefer really needs one, they can order one for him.

Ordering a bunch of cheap powder blues, dumping them cheap on a bunch of unsuspecting newbies in not what we reefers expect from J&L :(

Hi ;AJ, you will see a lot of me soon :)

theres a really nice powder blue tang on sale at pauls...........looks extremely healthy and is eating everything

I just got back from J&L,, and do they ever have some nice fish right now! They have some 1.5" butterfly's and tangs that are so cute, and some little cute red scooter blennies. They all looked good except for the small powder blues, something didn't look right with them.

Greg

Did they happen to mention why they are carrying them?
Was it a mistake or something?

J&L seems to try and cater to the reefing public, from what I can gather. But I have only been there twice, and there were multiple powder blue tangs both times.

It's not something one should see - I agree. Most (but not all) of the ones I saw looked awful as well...

No, I never said anything....maybe I mumbled a bit....I see other things here locally, never tanks filled with powder blue tangs, at least the stores I frequent....but in the end, they could give a crapload what I say....I mean I have already stocked my tanks for the most part.

If we cut off every source we have, what is left? Nothing. So we educate the source, or shop where it feels better ????

I like J&L, they do not exhibit some of the high pressure tactics of some of the other MO - I know nothing of their management, or who controls what happens there.

However, I will send an email tonite to them, regarding my own personal feelings on the issue.

Naesco, I never even asked. It was pretty busy and the guy didn't seem to be in the best of moods :?. From what I saw , the bigger ones were some of the most beautiful I've seen, and the little ones(3-4") looked like they were on there deathbed, very pale blue and the yellow on the fins was bleached right out with somewhat tattered fins, and on some it was apparent that they were not eating(quit skinny). Oh and they had some purple fire gobies which I hadn't seen before, and wow they are nice,the fins were a little tattered, but other wise looked very healthy.

It is my understanding that purple firefish have a horrible survival rate. :?

i had my purples for a long time, never had a prob, but i gave em up

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:


Dez?

Oh, that's no good :( . I wonder why they brought so many in? I wanted to get one too

Just for the record I didn't mean to insinuate that J & L did that on purpose, if it came across that way, I am sorry.

I am curious as to where they got them from though, we all know Blue Tangs are usually cyanide caught, having so many young ones not doing well, it seems that perhaps their supplier isn't telling them the whole truth.
That being said, I don't know much if anything about how the fish are brought in, NOR do I know for sure where those fish come from. I do know my LFS gets its shipments of fish the same days and about the same times as J & L, and if J & Ls stuff didn't come in neither did my LFS. My LFS however admits yes some of their fish are cyanide caught, they don't like it, but people want fish that they can afford. Lets face it, how many of us would pay $99 for a guaranteed NON cyanide caught fish when we can get the same fish with out knowing the real history for $49.... I don't know about you but, my pocket book would certainly over ride the moral dilema of purchasing fish that MAY have been cyanide caught.

I'd say, with out sticking my neck on the line that J & L is a reputable dealer... I am willing to give them the bennefit of the doubt and hope those fish were a surprise and not ordered at that size. Although I have been in there and seen HUGE angels that just arrived the day or so before, again, lets hope they were brought in on a special order...
I like J & L, I think they are above the board, I think though that they are trying to make a buck in a HIGHLY competitive market. We are lucky here from what I understand we pay about 1/4 to 1/2 what our neighbours to the south in Seattle pay for fish, so it is to our advantage to have the LFS trying to undercut each other for the time being. In a year, or more, lets hope that J & L can still afford to stay in the market... although I wouldn't pay double the money for a fish from J & L, I would pay a few bucks more for the peace of mind to know that they are a reputable, and environmentally aware company, that doesn't purposely bring in fish that are most likely destined to die slowly in some persons tank.

I wouldn't be in the hobby if I couldn't do that. These are live creatures, not disposable ones. :evil:

Emily sadly I can't say I would do the same thing all the time. Perhaps I would, but honestly, I don't ask where the fish came from, I don't ask if they were caught with cyanide, I look at the fish, and have them held for a week... .and now they go into isolation for two weeks min. Oh and of course I don't look at my fish as being disposible, I don't purchase a fish if I don't want keep it for years. I don't believe in getting a fish now and buying a bigger tank for it when it out grows the one I have. I aim to create a comfortable habitat for them but one that is pleasing to me as well.

Sad sad sad...is this what this is all about...where can I buy the cheapest fish. Sad sad sad!!!

Hey Em, where'd you hear that? In my experience they're one of the hardiest fish out there. I'm considering purchasing one at some point, they're one of my favourite fish.

I have to agree with Emily, thats what I have heard also, but, I've not tried to keep the purples, just the regulars, everyone told me they would fight, AFTER I got two of them, they didn't fight at all.

BC Orchid
Cyanide kills most of the fish and those that do live cause death and disease in the tanks of the wholesaler, LFS and most importantly in our tanks.
But when they squirt the cyanide in the coral reef head it also kills all the coral, inverts and all critters living there.
It is simply not a dollar issue period.
The fact is that net caught fish because of their low DOA and their good health are cheaper for the wholesalers and LFS even though they cost pennies more for the wholesaler and LFS to buy.
All we reefers have to do is ask each time we consider buying a fish and the LFS will get the message.

LFS can get net caught fish from three wholesalers in Vancouver. There is no excuse.
What about saltwater connection? What are they selling? Anyone know?




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BCOD, you may've been lucky enough to have a male/female pair. It seems some have the luck but the majority of people don't. I've never heard that they don't do well, I know all about the fighting but not the other.

It saddens me every time I see a fish that has little chance of survival in captivity and saddens me every time I see a coral with little chance of survival. The one thing we can do as hobbyists, is to insist on captive bred species where ever possible, net caught fish and that impossible to keep species are left in the ocean.

Yes, we'll have to pay more. What's a clear conscience worth?

I think it is difficult to tell, like I say, one place says we don't buy cyanide caught fish.. but they get their shipments on the same day and close to the same time as the other place... is that strange? As far as the fire fish, maybe I was lucky they were real show stoppers.

i am really getting myself in trouble. i have a feeling i'm going to have to go into hiding by the end of the week if i keep peeving people off on here. :?

but yes deb, des's store. the store had about seven or eight of them. but what store doesn't carry risky species. big al's has sea fans and wei's has moorish idols, what's to be done? at least AI quarantines.

i guess it's business... gotta make money somehow... about the only thing that can be done is an effort on the part of pet-keepers is to share information on which species do well in captivity and which don't.

naesco, as far as i know, jayson doesn't carry any fish. and haven't noticed any taboo corals...

BCOG,
regarding the firefish...
how long have you had them for?

Couple months smokinreefer.. they never left each others side that I saw

cool.
most likely a pair.

now if you can only tell me if you notice any physical differences between the 2.

so i can get a pair as well. :D

BCOG - Arrivals of flights from overseas is the reason that different LFS will get arrivals on the same day at the same time. There are limited flights from overseas. The shipments may not necessarily come from the same suppliers so there may be a difference in quality or cyanide vs net caught.

Naesco - The other factor to quality fish is handling. I hope our conversation the other day helped with this point. I firmly believe that the way the fish/coral are handled and shipped has a greater impact on the health of the animals after they are collected. The impact on the reef through cyanide use is a no-brainer.

Hello folks,

Not sure about the stocking of the tangs but I since the mgmt of J&L was brought up I thought that I would take the time for a quick post!

I don't work for them, I found them when I was researching LFS's prior tp my move from California back to Whistler.

In my experiences, they have been nothing short of great with both their advice, and pricing. As mentioned in another post, no hard sell tactics and I've even been told by them a few times "Wait until you're better prepared and more experienced". I deal mostly with Allan and Jeff when I go down on weekends and truly believe in their professionalism.

The only reason I post this is because on some of the other boards there is so much bagging on LFS's (Some legitimate some not), that I would hate for some to feel frustrated by it.

that being said, I'm not sure how orders for fish are done. If they have ultimate control or not of what they get. but I do believe that they do their best to control the quality of the livestock they get.

Best,

Rob

Good post Rob. Welcome back to Canada eh!

I think they're a great store myself and have no problem with their ethics. Allen, John and Jeff all shoot from the hip and give you honest answers (which of course are their opinions). I too have witnessed them turn customers off of certain animals because they knew people wouldn't be ready for them. I haven't found a store that puts as much effort and money into their systems.

On the subject of Powder Blues:

I've never seen a vibrantly coloured small one. They have some of the nicest I've seen in the larger sizes.

Allen has spent some time finding a good supplier and in his experience he's had a high success rate (98% survival) with this species from this supplier.

I've never kept a PBT but my reading indicates they belong in an experienced hobbyists tank. My one attempt with this species ended badly but I didn't start with a healthy animal. I personally probably wouldn't try again.

I don't think that anyone was critical of the management of J&L but I think most of the posters were surprised that they were offering a tang, which is very very difficult for even the most experienced reefers, on sale on their website.

OK I don't know much about tangs, mostly because my tank is too small so I've sort of veered away from them and deal with smaller fish. What exactly is it that makes a PBT so hard to keep (if not the obvious, "well they just die in captivity")???

Christy :)

Christie
Like most fish, if you provide the right conditions which include a suitably sized tank, pristine water and a correct feeding regimen, tangs will have a long and happy life.

However there are species of fish which are impossible to keep (long term) and some that are very very difficult to keep.
The powder blue tang is in the latter category.
IMO they are a sensitive fish. This begins with their capture, holding and shipment to the LFS. Many don't make it past the LFS doors and for that reason many LFS refuse to carry them anymore. Reefers are not going to buy a fish that is unhealthy looking.

Provided you have the right conditions, it has been my experience and the experience of many tang keepers, that the powder blue tang does well for a number of months 4-9 and then for no apparent reason gets sick. The symptoms include refusal to eat, hiding, inactivity and eventually some type of bacterial or other infection including ich that attacks them in this weakened state. They die often causing problems for the other tankmates as well.
IMO this is a very sensitive fish that requires optimum conditions in the strictest sense. In most tanks something is lacking that will not allow it to survive.
A tiny percentage of experienced reefers have had long term success with this fish. Most reefers who claim success have not had them that long.

Based on the above, it is my personal opinion that the powder blue tang should not be sold at LFS or online stores. It should be available on an order basis to reefers who feel that they can provide the optimum care they need.

My personal objection to seeing these fish available is as follows.
1. Most powder blue tangs are already sick when they are available for sale.
2. Because powder blue tangs come from both Indonesia and the Phillippines where the use of cyanide is prevalent in the capture of most tangs, angels and triggers the risk is increased.
3. Most online and LFS stores do not indicate where the fish comes from, whether it is guaranteed net caught and and honest assessment of the the degree of difficulty.
4. Like mandarins, the powder blue tangs are sucker fish for newbies who are the first choices because of their outstanding beauty.

The fishers who catch them, the exporters, wholesales and LFS and online stores ALL know the difficulties with this fish yet dont let the reefer know.
We are long past the buyer beware thinking of the past. We have the right to demand that an ethical and responsible industry serve our and our fellow reefers needs. (sorry for the bit of preaching here but I dont think it surprises anyone
:wink:

Jayson is away on a really long road trip right now, so he likely won't be able to answer. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he & I have had many frank discussions about cyanide in the past. He will not order from places/areas where he knows cyanide use is rampant. He, at one time, was looking into becoming MAC certified. I don't know if that process is complete or not, but as the MAC certification criteria dictate, you can only order from MAC certified suppliers and they can't be using cyanide and etc. etc. I know MAC certification has been debated in the past, particularly "what good can a piece of paper accomplish" but I personally DO beleive that the idea has potential and merit. He also visits his suppliers on a regular basis, so he has the chance to scrutinize who he does business with in person. Of course, I guess it still comes down to "who do you trust as your vendor" but for me, at least, I do trust Jayson on that one.

Lets call a spade a spade.....
 

Time to step on some toes:

Limited Flights, same flight, same supplier, different supplier.......

Same ocean, same supply, almost identical technique in capture.

Same Flight............

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out someone sells to all of the retail outfits.

Call a spade a spade or fold, but lets not try to bull&*(^.



Wendell

Wendell,

Sorry for your pessimistic view on this situation. Just a quick count, but there are 8+ companies importing fish directly from overseas in Vancouver alone. Product also comes from 6+ major collection areas. Others import product from LA. That would lead me to believe that there is a variety of fish available in the Lower Mainland.

There is a world of difference in the way that overseas exporters collect, handle, and ship their product. Look at just the issue over cyanide use. Some use it...some don't. I don't think that saying that there are different exporters used is "bull waste". The Philippines alone, there are five exporters used by my count. They all differ.

I guess in my hand I can have 13 different spades. You choose the one to call.