Trying Polyp Lab's "System Reef-resh" this weekend.
 

Bought it today from JL's. Has anyone used this product yet?

I'll report my results in a couple weeks. Seems like a pretty promising product, very similar to ZEOvit however alot easier to dose.

Cool :cool: I'm not one for daily dosing but I've been waiting to hear some reviews on this product. Keep us posted :biggrin:

Yes really interested in some results.:biggrin:

I just picked up the reef-resh system from JL as well...I will post my results as well on this thread as well if thats alright. JL were sure excited about the results in their display tank in just 1 week.

Mike that would be great if you posted your results as well. They ended up selling me too on how it improved the overall health of their display tank.

I just got some as well, and will be trying it shortly. Maybe we can keep this thread alive and post feedback and experiences every few days.

Mike

I will take some pics of some of my sps today (day 3) and then at day 8 and see if there is a noticeable difference. I have a mixed tank with one HUGE toadstool in it. My sps's have always grown at a steady rate so I should notice the difference....what I am hoping to see is better polyp extension.

Well it's day 3 for me (started dosing Friday) and I can honestly say that I am noticing an improvement in water clarity. Haven't noticed much else yet, but so far so good with this product.

I was in JL's early last week. They were trying Reef_resh in their display tank at the entrance. Well I was in today for some other things and was checking out the tank. The corals on display looked incredable! The polyps were bursting out. Just the growth on some of the polyps was amazing! They were starting their week 2 of dosing. If their tank continues improving I will be trying it very soon! I am very impressed with their results so far. (blah, blah, no I don't work for J&L)

Doug

Sounds pretty good so far...

I bought some Reef-resh today. Started dosing early this afternoon. So we will see what happens. I also noticed JLs' display tank that things looked more vibrant today.

Doug

are you seeing what you think you should be seeing though?

I am at day five now and am definitely seeing improvement in color and growth in all sps's and extension in LPS's. I have had two birdsnest frags for approx. 7mos....the growth last week surpassed the previous 2 weeks. My pocillipora has been in my care for 9 mos. and shows the same results as the pink birdsnest. I was a little skeptical at first, but I truly see improvent in my tank from corals I had for more than a year (cup coral) to the newest ones (blue acro). My brown corals have lightened up a bit and my orange digitata has shown more color. I also noticed that all of my zoos have noticeably longer tentacles but no color change. My orange plate coral'stentacles are noticeably longer too. No change to my open brains yet...but they look good anyway! My Kenya tree, toadstool and devils hand dont show much difference, but they thrive in my tank. I checked my water parameters before starting reef-resh and was showing approx. 5 for Nitrates...I checked today and no trace.....coincidence? I dont know.

I would be suspect of anything that makes you think you see a difference after only 1 week, I think like stated befor, it is seeing a little of what you want to see.

best way to go about it would be to take a pic at day 1 and remember the settings, then after 1 month of feeding take a aditional pic with the same settings and don't adjust anything in photoshop with either pic (except maybe the size) then stop feeding for another month and take a pic and see if they revert back.. by paying more attention on a daily basis you might be doing something else that is contrubiting to the difference if there is one.

Steve

This stuff looks very interestng to me. Bacteria are such a great way to control nutrients... A lot of people seem to be giving it a try recently too. So we should have more feedback in the next few months.

A guy I know just started using it yesterday, I cant wait to see what he thinks of it. He's a very clinical & skepticle guy, so I'm hoping he wnt be suseptable to his own head games.

Chris

Like I said, I was skeptical to begin with...I know how my corals have progressed since day one of reefkeeping. Everyday Im looking at progress, whats new etc. just like most people who have become so addicted to the obsession! To think I would put rose colored glasses on for one product over the many that I have crossed paths with is ludicrous. If I notice differences that werent present before I started using the product, I note them. These are not corals that I bought yesterday and know nothing about, I take note of the ones that I have had for awhile.
To try it for a month and then stop to see if they revert is not the way to see how well a product works because it has no scientific basis since you are not restarting with the same parameters of the subject. I think the weeks worth of results is significant since we all know how good or bad they can go in alot less time!
Who knows how far this product will go or when the results will plateau, all I know is that the majority of my corals are showing more than they did last week...I hope it continues.

Corals only go bad in less time, the good take a lot more, anyways not trying to say you are using the rose colored glasses, but from experence with new food fads/products, and being the most skeptical one out there, that a couple times it looked to me that stuff was making a difference but when I photographed, ect, ect, the growth rates were te same in the month couple months I fed as they were in the couple months after that I didn't feed, color and polyp extension was bigger, or so I though, but two months after I stopped feeding it was still the same.
I did notice a difference in the worms, bugs, mushrooms ect but as far as the SPS went ... no difference with 3 different products.

Steve

The appearence of new polyps at the base of the coral would not show up with rose colored glasses. The extension of the polyps would indicate something has changed. As for a change in color that could be subjective.

doug

New polyps at the base is simply growth,

Polyp extension, well seeing as we don't know what causes polyp extension that doesn't mean anything.. I get better extension during the day some people at night, some who feed, some who don't, see my point?

Color well who knows but I have found Alk levels make a huge difference in color where some haven't.. also lighting is a factor.

the problem is as in growth, a frag can sit there and do nothing for months then boom it starts growing when nothing has changed.. I personally believe that this is kinda of a recovery period from being fraged and a base laying period. so I'm my belief most frags don't start good growth until they have a solid foundation, how much of a base they need who knows but at some point I have found the base stops growing and the tips take off.

and like I said I have seen only guesses at to who the polyps extend. I have never had a problem with extension so I have never worried about it. It may be a good thing but then it may be bad, with my open brain I find it swells up when its hungry and shrinks when it is satisfied which seams to be opposite of what other think. all I know is when my LPS are swollen I feed them then they shrink down for a week then start swelling up again and so on.

Like I said this is my opinions and because there hasn't really been any research with SPS on these issues or if there is it isn't finished the questions cannot be answered and everyone will have there own opinion..
and as I stated before when I started feeding I thought there were drastic changes in growth and color, found out the color was because of an increase in my Alk and the growth was a combination of me just not noticing it before as I wasn't looking for an effect of feeding up to that point and corals just deciding to grow. heck I had one that worked on the base for almost 1 year with almost no top growth then boom it was growing 1cm a week from the tips.. nothing changed in 6 months prior to the explosion.

so we can argue this back and forth all year and no one will win as there is no proof or even studies that will affirm one way or another. :wink:


Steve

PS: I am not trying to discourage anyone from using it I started last week as I got a free sample in the mail, so who knows maybe this will turn out to be different that other foods and maybe not. Also one thing I just thought of is that if your lighting is a little on the low side for your corals maybe feeding will help a lot, but who knows.

Stircrazy,

I think you have your products mixed up....

This thread is about Reef-resh. A bacterial export system. We never gave out samples of Reef-resh.

I think you are talking about Reef-roids which is our coral food for filter feeders.

=)

Week 1

The first week has passed and I have been impressed with some of the differences I have seen in my tank. I know that the information and data herein is subjective. I have paid more attention to corals that have been in my care for an extended period of time since I have more knowedge on their growth rate and polyp extension prior to Reef-Resh. My feeding schedule has been the same all along. My lighting consists of 2-250W 14K venture bulbs that are 2 1/2 months old and 1-400W venture 10K bulb that is 1 1/2 months old. Flow rates have not changed. The specs for the rest of the equipment are on my signature. There have been no corals/livestock added since starting Reef-Resh.

Feeding:
9:30 AM 1 cube mysis and a pinch of Formula flake
3:00 PM 1- 3 inch strip of nori
8:30 PM 1 cube of mysis (1cube of brine every second day instead
of mysis) and a pinch of Formula flake
1 teaspoon of reef roids in the evening on Mon. and Fri.
DT's phytoplankton every 3 nights.

Corals

Frogspawn, Hammer, Torch - very healthy and hard to tell if any changes have occurred.

Orange Plate- tentacle extension has increased noticeably. They were approx.1/2 inch and now are 3/4-1inch.

2 Open brains- tentacles come out more often in the daytime-not longer

Numerous zoos- definite tentacle extension difference-almost double! No color change

Galaxy- polyp extension is a little more, looks great but no noticeable changes

14"Dia. Toadstool, Colt, Devils Hand. Kenya tree- All doing great- same as before.

4 various Montipora- All show definite improvement...growth has gone from 1/8 inch per week to 1/4 inch this week. Polyps are more defined and the polyps underneath are actually coming out now. Color appears deeper

Pink Birdsnest- Growth has gone from 1/4 inch to 3/8-1/2 this week. Polyps stay out longer and are longer. Pink tips more defined

Pocillipora- growth is roughly the same but polyps are longer and out All week. Appears to have 'lightened' up from darker beige to lighter.

Christmas tree rock- polyps are definitely larger and are growing on to adjacent rocks- cant tell if there is more growth....I didnt realize it was spreading! Ha Ha! The feathers look more defined, that could be due to water quality.

Big Cup coral- Polyps are larger and are out more often. Growth 'seems' to be more, but not sure. Noted that polyps were coming out underneath as well....it has never done that in the year and some that have had it.

Orange Digitata- Growth this week has been equal to the previous two. polyps havent changed ( its in a high flow area) Orange coloration is more defined.

Blue acropora and blue green acro- growth is good 1/4 inch last week. Coloration is awesome...these corals are reatively new so I cannot compare too much.

I have more corals, but these are the ones I am using for comparison. The leathers are harder to note changes. My tank has typically taken along time for sps to grow- maybe since I do have a mixed tank and no reactor, I dont know. That is why I am excited to see the results for the sps's...hopefully the trend continues! The Lps are also hard for me to note skeletal growth differences, it will be easier over a more prolongued period.
I have noticed better water quality though...the only evidence I have is the drop in Nitrates from 5 to 0 though. My water looks clearer and fish, corals, inverts look more defined. I might be looking into it too much, but I have had others tell me that the clarity is better (without me telling them of Reef-Resh) I do notice I have to empty the skimmer cup a day earlier now...anyone out there notice the same?
Overall....Very happy of the first week! Next report will be Week 2
Thanks

Thanks Mike. Very comprehensive. Looking forward to future reports.

Anthony

Any before and after pics?

Well they say the lord hates a coward so I might as well weigh in on this one. If I am not mistaken the general idea of this system is to create an environment that is nutrient poor, ie: nitrate and phosphate at zero, through the use of various strains of bacteria. I would also guess that other factors are required in order to see a real benefit from this such as heavy and efficient skimming, appropriate lighting, frequent water changes, and adequate water flow.
I don't think that it is unrealistic to see marked improvement within the first week of using this system just for the fact that presumably you have been successful in reducing the amount of nitrate and phosphate in your water - thus the corals are smiling. I would be a bit nervous of too rapid a change in your system that has the potential of shocking your inhabitants and as has been said it is usually bad things that happen quickly. I would keep a close eye on your corals to make sure that they don't go too quickly even if the direction you think they are heading in is a good one. I know that when I used Pohl's coral vitalizer there was a marked improvement of polyp extension within the first couple of days and I kept dosing at the same levels and pretty soon I started to see tissue sloughing off around the base that allowed a bacteria or some other algea to attach the base of the coral and eventually kill them. Like most things in a reef aquarium good things happen slowly.
I am not using this system but will follow this thread closely as I am curious to see how it progresses. I have tried the zeovit system but have had to stop using it as I was just unable to maintain it properly without a proper zeo reactor that for some reason (supplier!!!!) I was unable to aquire. Without all the pieces of the puzzle in place systems like zeovit and presumably Reef-fresh simply do not work, IMO.
Pictures would be a wonderful tool to track the progress of your system and also for the rest of us that are interested to observe.
Just my opinion and 2 pennies worth.

Good point Ruth, like Steve also said , It would be nice to see some before and after progress pictures
Also I am very interested on how much it is going to cost on a month to month basis. I talked to Jeff at J&L and they are trying to determine this as well

Oh don't I just feel like an idiot!!!! you guys need to stop releaseing stuff so fast:mrgreen: you got a link to the info on this stuff?

Steve

I'm going to give this a try as well I will try to take some pictures every week to document changes... There are a few questions That I would have... Maybe polyp lab could answer them for me... Does this new strain of bacteria we are adding replace or compete for nutrients with the de-nitrifying bacteria that is normally present in our reefs... ie if I run out or decide to stop using this product wiil my tank re-cycle as the normal flora returns?... are there any negative effects to missing a day or two? will the bacteria die off too rapidly (without the food) and release the nitrates and phosphates ,back into the water collumn, that they had comsumed? I don't think this would be to big an issue with the size of skimmer I am running (G4X on ~100gals) but good to know.

Mike: are you seeing the development of bacterial mats like they advertise?

Polyp lab: Is the food (reef fuel) simply a source of organic carbon... and would this fuel the growth of the pre-existing bacterial strains present in our reefs?
without the addition of your bacterial strain?
Thanks for your answers,
I am looking forward to giving this product a try

Regards,
Dan

Well it's been a week of using this stuff and I can't really significantly report any major difference up till now. I did notice that the water clarity was good, and I can also report a bit more skimmate than before.

As for SPS changes, I can't really say. I am not going up to the tank every night and checking to see whether there are any difference because I honestly wouldn't know whether a branch is growing more than before or not.

The best way is definitely to take some before and after pics which I may do this weekend. These will be the before shots and I'll post them here.

I think the normal waiting period is about 4-6 weeks before you can really notice any dramatic improvements so I'm not gonna get too excited at this point.

Mike Olson: I’m glad the product is working out for you.

Tangman: The winner of our photo contest has placed some photos of his progress on several forums. I am not sure if I am allowed to post links to these forums on Canreef so I’ll let you do some searching =)
There is some information on cost on our faq page at www.polyplab.com/faq/html
The cost for a 100 gallon aquarium is around 17-18 dollars a month.

StirCrazy: No problem about the confusion =) I must admit, the names we chose are a little confusing. You can read more about this product at www.polyplab.com/reefresh.html


Ruth: System Reef-resh is a much more gradual (and consequently safer) nutrient export system than other European bacterial systems. We use more efficient strains and a much safer carbon source. Bleaching is not a problem that you will encounter with this product.

VanReefer: I’ll try to answer your question with a quick summary of some of the mechanisms at work here..

There are several bacterial species in the RF-Genesis product. Some species are designed to stay in a planktonic (free-floating) state in the aquarium while other species are designed to firm micro-colonies with existing and novel strains. These micro-colonies are also known as biofilms.

Biofilms typically contain many layers of bacterial cells to form microcolonies. These colonies have fairly complex cell to cell communication between the cells and act as a “team”. The bottom layers of these biofilms attach to a surface and provide some kind of structure for the upper layers. The upper layers are the nutrient exporting elements. They trap nutrients to feed the cells that it is made of. As the top layers of the biofilm consume nitrates and phosphates, it repeatedly grows and sheds.

The layers of the biofilm that have been shed are either eaten by your corals (sound tasty huh?) or are skimmed out by your skimmer. That is why people are noticing more skimmate - you are skimming out bacterial slough.

There is no real problem with missing a day or two of dosing, but the system is most effective when dosed as instructed. With an extended period of non-dosing, the biofilms will find other food sources to survive, but over time will be unable to sustain the structure of the biofilm and will slough off entirely. If you are running a skimmer, they will not break back down before they are skimmed out.

However, if you are running a skimmer-less setup and you stop dosing the product for an extended period of time (several weeks), then you do run the risk of the biofilm layers breaking back down. This is why we do no recommend running System RF in a skimmerless setup. Will you get a second cycle? Unlikely… At this stage your aquarium will likely be mature enough to handle a temporary increase in excess nutrients.

Correct. RF-Fuel is a source of organic carbon and several amino acids that are soluble in the carbon source. The fuel source encourages some strains to multiply that we want to grow, while not effecting other strains that we do not want. It does minimally fuel the growth of some of your existing bacterial stains.

Some European methods use vodka as a carbon source. Vodka is a terribly stupid thing to use as a carbon source in aquariums since it encourages the wrong types of bacteria to grow (Mostly autotrophic as opposed to heterotrophic). It also rapidly results in monocultures of that species and over time you end up with aquariums filled with bacteria that do not provide any real nutrient export.

In a market saturated with hundreds of garbage "reef products", skepticism towards any new product is wise. So regardless of how this product sounds on paper, the experiences of other hobbyists will be the best reviews.

We have put in a LOT of time into developing this product, so to hear positive experiences with the product is very rewarding. Thanks!

I have a few before and after pics. Not very good though....my camera will not go into manual focus. I will try to post though...I am hoping to borrow my friends new 8mg digital SLR this comng week.
I am constantly checking my sps for growth since they have never grown that fast in my tank. Thats probably why I have noticed the most changes/occurrences on them.....my Softies have always grown like mad.

Nitrate Levels
 

If the Reefresh system is about nutrient export shouldn’t you be posting before and after nitrate readings (or is that too personal) :-) So far only Mike has post his readings. Polyp Lab's website doesn’t specifically say that the product will reduce nitrates or to what level.

So I started the Reef-Resh system today, how are you guys making out?

I guess this is kind of a question for polyp labs, sorry for the mini hijack.

after reading the info you have on the reef-resh I am left confused and maybe you could give me something else to chew on to help me figure this out.

I was looking at the benifits, quoted next

"• Greatly enhanced colouration of corals
• Increased growth rates of corals
• Marked improvement in water quality
• Decreased nuisance algae outbreaks
• Improved fish health
• Decreased parasite outbreaks"

and then read the info on each part, well the blurbs on what it is and does.

then I read your guide lines for use

"It is very important to follow these guidelines in order to achieve the desired results. Each of these points are equally important to the success of System RF.

● Dose the components of System RF as outlined in these instructions.
● 10% bi-weekly or 25% monthly water changes. These water changes are required. Larger or more frequent water changes are unnecessary.
● Run a 1/4 cup of high quality carbon 24/7 for every 50G in a high flow area. Replace monthly.
● Use only RO/DI water in the aquarium.
● Feed your fish and corals high quality foods that will not rapidly break down.
● Do not overfeed fish and corals.
● Strong skimming that is appropriately rated for your tank size and bioload.
● Appropriately strong lighting for the type of corals you keep in your aquarium.
● Adjust and maintain water parameters to:
"

well after thinking about this by just following your guide lines alone you will get all the benifits you listed above with out using the reef-resh system as you guide lines are the optimal conditions for a reef tank (well except I personaly think the SG is a tad low and the Ca is a little high but still acceptable and I believe you have a typo on your units for SG should be Kg/l3 as a m3 of fresh water is about 1000Kg not 1 )

so I guess what I am asking is how does the reef-resh system enhance a already perfectly balanced and set up tank?

Steve

Well put :biggrin: I thought the same when I read the instructions.But didn't know how to ask the question, without sounding like I was calling them out.

.

...

The whole idea of Reef-Resh is to create a low nutrient environment that your SPS and other corals can survive in. Keeping your other parameters in check just makes sense.

If you maintain these:

SG:
1.023 - 1.024 kg/m3
Temp:
79 - 81˚F
pH:
7.9 - 8.3
Ca:
420 - 450 ppm
Mg
1300 - 1400 ppm
dKH:
8 - 10

It dosen't automatically guarantee success. There are quite a few more peices to the puzzle.

True but when you add:

● 10% bi-weekly or 25% monthly water changes. These water changes are required. Larger or more frequent water changes are unnecessary.
● Run a 1/4 cup of high quality carbon 24/7 for every 50G in a high flow area. Replace monthly.
● Use only RO/DI water in the aquarium.
● Feed your fish and corals high quality foods that will not rapidly break down.
● Do not overfeed fish and corals.
● Strong skimming that is appropriately rated for your tank size and bioload.
● Appropriately strong lighting for the type of corals you keep in your aquarium.

You have alot of the peices.Im not saying it doesn't work.But it would be interesting to see results from tanks useing Reef-resh,and tanks without.With
parameters and maintenence the same on all tanks.

I think it could have a little to do with the undetectable amount of nutrients in our tanks that can't be measured by a $20 test kit. When I first read their requirements I thought exactly the same. However, I think that this product, if it works, might just take an already optimal tank condition to a new, slightly higher level ensuring a slightly higher level of growth and overall health. Sounds like it could be a good product if you don't mind paying a bit extra to get a bit extra. That's how I've interpreted it anyways.

My question is, theoretically, if you didn't have optimal tank conditions, and still had some nutrients in your tank that was causing algae growth, should it not still export the excess nutrients and help starve the nuisance algae?

"How does the Reef-resh system enhance an already perfectly balanced and set up tank?"

It is simple. System RF works by the removal of unwanted nutrients and the input of proper additives that will benefit corals.

The following are indisputable FACTS and not "claims" of our product:
- You are introducing novel bacterial strains that induce the formation of biofilms with some of the pre-existing bacteria
- These biofilms want to grow and need to consume nutrients to do it. This is the nature of bacterial micro-colonies. It is the way that bacteria spreads on your kitchen counter. It is the way that bacterial infections spread in your body. They need to eat.
- Biofilms trap nutrients in their upper layers to grow. This is how they feed. In particular, some of the strains we have selected have a preference to consume organic phosphates and nitrates.
- As these particular biofilms grow they will "shed" off some of the layers. Not all biofilms shed (especially ones in the human body), but with certain bacterial combinations in their make-up, they do.
- The sloughed off layers are either skimmed out or fish/corals will eat them.
- Having an extra entity in your aquarium that consumes these nutrients is guaranteed to lower your nutrient levels. It would not be possibly for these biofilms to sustain themselves if they did not consume nutrients.

If you are further interested, there are thousands of microbiology references that will tell you the exact mechanisms of marine biofilms. Two of our employees have post-grad degrees in microbiology, so if anyone has extremely technical questions I can direct them to Tyler or Ji Hyun.

Lastly, the addition of RF-Plus and RF-Acids is what you use to provide amino acids, vitamins and nitrate/phosphate-free coral nutrition. RF-Plus took over 6 months to develop properly. These products are highly concentrated and incredibly important to the coloration of SPS corals. If you doubt the importance of these components, a quick search on google will bring you a decent amount of starter reading material.

It is unfortunate that so many "snake-oil" products have been release in this industry. It has made many hobbyists very skeptical of any aquarium product - especially unconventional products like System Reefresh. I am a hobbyist myself, so I know exactly where you come from. When I first got into the hobby in 1996, I was conned by my LFS into wasting hundreds of dollars on useless products. At Polyp Lab, we are trying to develop a reputable name for ourselves. Releasing a snake oil product into an already infested market would not be a wise way to go about it.

We have received very good feedback on our System RF product line and I personally love reading the comments and answering questions you guys have sent over emails. We have some very intelligent reefers with open and inquiring minds in Canada. You guys are truely amaze me.

Something that I should note that has been called to my attention, the label on the RF-Fuel package is not as clear as we would like it to be. Just to clarify, RF-Fuel should be dosed every day in the amounts listed.

A more thorough explanation of the dosing regime is available on our website at www.polyplab.com/instructions.html


And lastly, to answer Stircrazy's other question:
There are a large number of hobbyists in North America who do all of the things we suggest (such as water changes, running carbon etc) who still do not have the coral health/colouration/appearance that they are looking for. I'm sure there are a handful of people who use this forum who could attest to this. Our product does not guarantee a flourescent rainbow garden in your aquarium, but it most certainly helps it along the way!

Oh and thank you for the correction on the salinity units =)