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Funny thing about the LFS and the "relinquiesh the CITES" comment
Some may recognize the quote below from a thread earlier today.
Funny thing - I bough some corals off this guy about a year or so back (he sells corals out of BC). Interestingly - I specifically asked him for a copy of the CITES so I could apply for a re-export permit to the US. The answer was no. Wonder why that was??? Apparently all vendors should just be willing to give these out...yet you would not. What a piece of work bringing this back up - seems as though your ethics have not changed at all. For those reading, go ask your LFS for a copy of the CITES next time you buy a couple corals and see what they tell you. Quote:
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Dave, I'm not sure I understand the point here....
If you have battles with other suppliers, please take it offline. |
Ok let me explain.
I want to clarify to all those who read the previous thread that it is in no way reasonable for a hobbyist to expect th LFS to expect to just hand out such a permit. Heck - even a Canadian wholesaler/re-seller will not provide you with that! If anyone for any reason felt that this was reasonable, and perhaps chose to order through an online company that could provide such a document as they import directly from overseas (and there are some) - well this could mean money out of my pocket. Unfair in my opinion - just wanted to clear that up! Quote:
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I have asked my LFS for CITES permits from shipments and they don't receive the CITES from their wholesaler. Instead, the LFS was nice enough to provide me with the contact information of one of his suppliers who I contacted nd delt with them directly. This obviously isn't the norm, but they know I'm not trying to steal a supplier, just applying for re-export CITES for various corals.
I wish the laws were different. I have spent many hours speaking with the DFO, Environment Canada and a few other organizations to convince them that aqua-cultured corals aren't the same as even mari-cultured stock. It's easier to shoot a polar bear and get it from Canada to the USA than to get an aqua-cultured frag across the border. p.s. 1000 posts Dave, congrats lol! |
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I'm really getting annoyed with this whole topic Dave, and these posts are getting old. Please just give it a rest. |
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I know your personal stance Aquattro, you don't care where it comes from, if you like it you buy it. That's your personal view on the topic and far be it from me to try and change your mind! But some people would like to see a "paper trail" to prove lineage. And they will ask for it from any retailer trying to sell it as such. There is no winning this battle for either side. |
I think that the lineage info is important in this situation when you are going to buying something that is branded Tyree or ORA.
I have followed all these thread and i think they are very important and that some of these questions should be answered. If things are found to be done illegally in the extreme case this could effect all of us who keep coral in our tanks. There will be people who are not interested in hearing anything about any of this and there will be others who will be very interested and passionate about the situation. I think that the first thread would have been good to have around as it posed alot of good questions in it. Quote:
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If someone wants a paper trail, ask the seller. In private. There has been enough arguing here about it, and it's now run past it's course.
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hMM
Does anyone know, besides CITES if there any other system which can act to verify the legitity of stock? When Tyree releases a frag, does it come with a certificate or something specifying its authenticity? It seems a little silly to ever ask for something like this, just a whole lot of extra work. If the coral looks exactly like the LE Red Planet Acro. then would you not trust it too be, thats what the vendor rating forums are for right?
Levi |
I have NEVER directly imported corals into this country, as such I do not receive the documents. Read my post above - I asked for the documents for business purposes and they would not provide them!!!
Now if I did import from another country, well I would have the documents. Quote:
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What some people are after is just some proof that these were imported from the US in the last little while. We already know Steve Tyree does not expert himself to canada - and that is ok becuase we need to trust the person doing the selling. We all know they are mostly from indo at some point, however these particular pieces were re-exported from the US, so the importer should be able to say ya, we have the import permit from the US into Canada. Quote:
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Correct me if I am wrong CITES permits are given when corals cross international borders. I have heard that in some cases (not dealing with coral) Fish and wildlife my want documentation (and CITES) if material is sold inter provincially. So if I sold a coral to the states I would have to have CITES documentation. The only documentaton I could give them is a reciept form the store I bought it from. I think that might be enough to satisfy fish and wildlife. I think the intent of CITES was to monitor and control the movement of livestock from the wild to the wholesaler and not from the LFS to the hobbyist. As for ORA you could provide DNA to establish lineage of the coral but that is going over board and cost some $$$ to do.
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Authenticity
That paper would just say its a coral that's been exported right, not a "LE Tyree piece"? Fundamentally I think a lot of the confusion here has to do with the fact that there is no way to actually verify this. If the system were cut and dry and everyone had access to it then great bang problem fixed, but I don't foresee that japanning any time soon. Then again, when you purchase a pure bred dog you pay allot extra to have the papers go along with it, when you purchase a frag that costs 13X what something similar would cost you would assume that there would be some sort of paper to go along with that.
Levi |
I really don't understand the process where corals get pedigreed. Didn't they come out of the same ocean as every other coral? It didn't just happen to flash into being, it came from parent corals that surely had more then 1 offspring...meaning there are lots more just like them waiting to be harvested...
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Red Planet and other ORA frags come on ORA plugs. The most no-brainer proof of lineage is to ask for confirmation of the plug. Bam, you're good to go.
On the other side of the issue; if one assumes that the frags are brought in legally, consider for a moment the implications upon the individual, who did all the legwork, relinquishing all their man hours over an unprofitable dispute on a public board. Seems like a moronic move to me. Doubly so if it's to satisfy the cause of a competing vendor. $0.02 and a dollar to top it off. |
Hey Levi. You are correct - however it would have be "re-exported" from the USA, with the original CITES. I don't thing actual "LE Tyree piece" is what anyone is after (at least not myself), just confirmation that it came was imported from the USA and not a well photographed house coral at a premium price.
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If it is worth doing - heck it is worth doing right and there is nothing to be defensive about. Legwork is only what your time is worth, to you. If it was as simply as filling out the forms it would not be worthy of discussion. I showed up at the CITES office, learned the process, could not obtain the information required for some of the same corals I can now buy from others...that is why I am working hard at figuring this out.
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Just a thought
I may have missed it, but has anyone considered the amount of frag ops out there, and how far back the original cites May be from? i sell the occasional frag, or trade them. do i need to provide this as well. there definately would be cost implications. i do agree it needs to be perhaps more readily available, but where would it stop. CITES Are applied for and granted or denied. are you willing to pay for it with every purchase. like previously mentioned, a purebred Dog, pay for papers.
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Some of the aqua-cultured corals have tags sticking out of plugs, but have never any papers for them.
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I point no fingers - I simply ask the questions. My 5 years of university and pending acceptance for my post graduate for my MHSc likely places me at or above comparable level to the CITES officers. Maybe not - lets be honest that is irrelevant. I can be disagreeable - but I wanted something from them :)
Well how many Tyree frags would you like to buy form me then???? I can provide the same info as others selling them in Canada - I got some skilz with the camera! I can't help be think back to the day when some got worked by the big box stores - problem with algae? Buy this UV unit. Corals not go growing, buy this supplement. Why is livestock any different. I can give more than 10 different reasons your corals will not look the way they should...I don't care for those who may chose to take advantage of those who do not know any better. Quote:
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Actually they do have papers associted with them every time a coral lands in Canada there is paperwork. Marshall and Solomon Islands use this tagging system. Assuming the country participates in the CITES agreement (FYI Tonga does not do this - wink wink buddy), there is paperwork LISTING the corals shipped. Paperwork is not a concern unless you re-export to another country. The paperwork we are discussing is that associated with re-exporting corals...say from indonesia to the US, and then from the US to Canada.........10 years ago. It is complex to say the least - but important to some. Dave
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I am wondering why this thread was created here on the vendor forums? I didnt think the vendor forums were meant for anything other than selling your wares. Why isnt this thread out on the main board? Sorry dave, but IMO your coming across as jealous because someone was able to do something you couldnt. |
Please clarify
You have three business licences or CITES? If the latter, my old employer needed one for every piece collected, every time. said would apply for 300, and have half approved. just not sure i understand fully. sorry if i dont follow completely, but i guess i would like to understand as this is a major issue it seems. basically the issue... asking for proof and dealer refusing?
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Ok when our LFS brings in corals they have to pay for cities. on each order. is there prices on the Cities list or is there just the type and how many corals that you are bringing in..
So whats with the freak out mode... Alot of people are confused on what you are trying to get across. when this happens may be its better to be more professional as a seller and buyer and move it to PM's ,but remember Pm's can get you in crap too if you go to deeply in the naughty word list..... trust me I have been there... I got caught... |
To clarify - I have 3 Indo CITES available (no of which I intend to use) - one for 30 pieces, one for 120 pieces one for 300 pieces (all approximate numbers, and yes one business license). A CITES permit includes the the number of pieces - you do not need 1000 CITES for a 1000 piece shipment. And hey a wholesaler "member" on this site refused my request for the CITES so I could re-export. The CITES contains the supplier information - which is a valuable piece of info worth of protecting.
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You bet I am jealous and I will happily be the second to bring these in!!! And I have not failed until I give up - and I have no reason to give up yet. All signs point to be it being possible - I will bring this info with me to the FWS office if required. Quote:
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The CITES will list the quantity of each species of coral allowed to be imported at the time of the shipment, from a particular supplier.
I imagine many people are confused about the topic, and this is somewhat my fault. That being said - it was not my intent to discuss the specifics of my topic (importing Steve Tyree corals into Canada with proper paperwork for re-sale) in this thread. I hope to discuss this in the near future here at canreef. Yes - lets be honest, in all likelihood, as with other boards, your PMs can be reviewed by staff, and by the staff in their private forum. Of course you should not be ashamed of what you are discussing privately - I do not fear any of my PM's being posted on the board...well I don't think so. Staff have an important job to do - what can you say.... Quote:
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Pm,s can be reviewed by the staff in their private forum?? Thats news to me then. I have never seen any, except ones that are sent to us.
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And the more statements you post dave the more of an.....you sound. "My 5 years of university and pending acceptance for my post graduate for my MHSc likely places me at or above comparable level to the CITES officers." Getting a Masters degree doesn't put you above ANYBODY. What an arrogant, pompous statement! |
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OMG LOL me bad!! I forgot I sold a $30 credit for $20.. I thought I gave it away.. thats how much it was worth to me.. ~shrugs~ The point was, and still is.. I didnt want your frickin credit. jeeze and you think this makes my opinion carry less resonance? You are a bully arent you? LOL!! and dont be misleading your faithful readers yourself.. the frag you shipped me didnt die.. there was nothing in the bag to die.. it was nothing but a bare rock. Since were into digging back thru old posts.. Im going to have to see if I can find that picture of the bare rock... Its bad when you have to dig this deep and go this low to try and make a point.. |
Sorry Dave, i am just getting confused as to what the point of this discussion is now. If it is trying to determine the process to bring these corals into Canada then that's a great topic and I am interested. If it is to try to cast doubt on the honesty of another vendor then that is probably not so kosher.
FWIW, I seem to remember Ian mentioning that his supplier not only had import permits but also re-export permits which was unusual. He told me this many months ago; before he was selling any of the Tyree or ORA frags. So if all that is required is to get hold of a copy of the original CITES docs and to have a re-export permit then I would be comfortable in believing that he has brought them in legally and legitimately. If showing you the import certificates is the only way to "prove" this but that would give away his trade secrets as to who his supplier is then I guess he has every right to withhold that. Especially from the competition. Would you do any differently if the roles were reversed? In the end it comes down to this: 1) Do you have some trust for the vendor? and 2) Do the corals indeed look like what they are advertised to be? Personally I have the impression that Ian is a stand up guy and does business honestly. So I would have no problem buying from him and the corals certainly look like the genuine article to me. I have seen Ian's corals in person and they look very much like the photos on his site. Honestly Dave, it seems like you are trying to cast doubt on another vendor's business without having any evidence that he has done something wrong or contrary to what he claims. I quite liked the product I received from you and would do business with you again based on that. I also am very pleased with the product I received from Ian and will do business with him again. Please let's try to keep this a productive discussion. if the purpose is to make another vendor look bad then this topic should be closed ASAP. |
Agree
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The thread has just turned into members slinging crap at each other.
Really good thread guys. And some have the nerve to post about staff closing threads and wonder why. Pretty self explanatory, is it not. Dave, I,m closing it until your back online. Re open it if you wish ,for now and as long as it stays on topic, which seems to be a hard thing to do. As Ron said , I dont even know what the topic is anymore. |
Forgot of course, you seemed pretty certain a few hours ago, call me a stickler for the details. Find the picture and I will provide the $50 credit utilizes days afterwards by a fellow canreef member - heck their was competition for that credit (again your words no not mine - Scott correct me if I am wrong here...). And everyone is a canreef reader - not MY reader. LOL all you like - they are your words - not mine, so be accountable for them if they in any way are associated with me. I look forwared to your email regarding for the frag you expressed interest in just a few hours ago, unless of course something has changed which is understandable...
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Names are not important - but when I asked about buying a certain coral, well all I got is a simply "trust me". And honestly, knowing what I know about the process, that was not so kosher with me. Again - perhaps a stickler for the details. If anything exists - will my PM's were clear - freely black-out all the supplier information, I am not interested in where they came from, only that they came through the good old USA (rather than vietnam, indo or australia). I do not doubt the quality of any product - and am pleased to hear you have positive experiences with both myself, and the other person you mentioned. That being said, in my mind (and from my perspective), given the specific nature of the pieces we are talking about, I feel the burden of proof lies with the person selling the Tyree corals. I hope to get Steve Tyree to comment here in the near future. Dave Quote:
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I am online now - but have had a long day of replying to posts which is not a surprise to anyone I am sure. Closing the thread is fine, thanks actually!
A re-focused VERY specific thread will open in the near future, deferred until a later date...until then enjoy the long weekend. Cheers. Quote:
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