My king angel and coral beauty survived the copper treatment no problem.

Hi Mindy,

Interesting, should I ask for proof texts as you do of me? It seems strange that if copper was so dangerous to humans why is it allowed for piping in our homes? I was aware that aluminum has been linked with alzheimer's but not copper. +1 for drinking RO water. :)

It is always wise to do research before you begin keeping animals as it gives you a base to start from. 12 years ago I researched copper before I opted to start using it in my business. Seacare Maricultured Products was Western Canada's largest Marine only wholesaler for a lot of years. So, I have the research, albeit old, and on top of it ten+ years of experience keeping 1000's of fish(angels, tangs and scaleless) in copper medicated water. I have had damselfish(neopomacentrus azysron) and a sleeper goby(Valencienna sp.) both lay egg masses while living in copper water at 0.26mg/l ionic copper. Pics are available. I used copper sulfate and Citric acid that I would mix myself. That is the most potent form and requires constant monitoring, which I did with a Lamotte Digital colorimeter.

Yes, the copper does get absorbed by the buffers in the water, pvc pipes, and the fishes themselves absorb it. After a while it quits getting absorbed by the buffers and pipes and the readings begin to stabilize.

It typically takes a pH of lower than 6.9 to begin to start redissolving carbonates. Most people run their reactors around 6.5. If your QT is lower than 6.9pH the fish is probably dead already or will be soon.


The reason Copper and Malachite Green are not approved by FDA for food fish is that they both go into the tissues and leave residues. Formalin just temporarily burns the outer layer of the fish and leaves behind no traces other than the damage.

Well we both have come to different conclusions so we can agree to disagree. :) I don't want to hijack Brad's thread anymore.


As far as my comment on cyanided fish in the industry. The cyanide capitals in this industry are Philippines, Indonesia and Vietnam. Probably 90% of the fish come from those areas and there is no question by anyone in the know that the cyanide use there is heavy.

Some fishes are available from other areas but the costs are at least 6 - 10 times from Philippines or Indo. I am referring to Bicolor Angels or Coral Beauty Angels, Naso Tang, Blue Tangs etc. The more expensive places are generally in the South Pacific, Australia, Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Fiji, Tonga, Hawaii, Marshall Islands etc. In those areas they don't use cyanide although some of them may use MS222 to anesthetize the fish. Business economics then takes over as to where the fish are sourced from.

If you google Peter Rubec or Steve Robinson or Vaughn Pratt and Cyanide you will come up with a lot of info. For your info I have had numerous lengthy conversations with all of them in regards to Cyanide and Cyanide Free Exporters whom I could buy from.

Cyanide damages or outright destroys what is called the proton pump. It converts Adenosine diphosphate into Adenosine triphosphate, which the muscles can then use. Basically Cyanide disrupts or destroys a fishes ability to convert food into useable energy. Thus the fish eats well but starves and eventually dies. This info from a friend who is a Doctor of Internal Medicine in Texas.

If you wish to discuss cyanide use we should start a new thread.

Cheers,
Tim

I'm mostly done with it, and this is kinda pertinent :)

Holy crap! Was away for a couple weeks and come back to find this very disturbing thread. So sorry for your losses Brad.

You can't leave for a couple of weeks, you miss too much! Ya, lost almost all of the fish, and the fallow period doesn't start until I can get the remaining orange spot goby out. Gonna try a spear :)

Been through that and I gotta say it's a looooong 8 weeks. A tank with no fish in it is a sad, lonely place.

I wouldn't know yet, I have a goby that won't die...

I've got a sohal and a queen coming, I hope, they'll live at the store for a while before going into quarantine. Now I have to make a wanted list, most of the last fish were adoptees.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news brad but sohals need 8 foot tanks dude.

Crap and you've likely already paid for it too. :cry:

No, it's a special 6ft tank sohal. I'm only going to feed it twice a week to keep it small.

lol
Brad, would it help if you run an Uv sterilizer in your QT?

I don't think so, it looks like the fish left are doing fine. I add the second dose of meds tomorrow, so we'll see how they look.

So this means you've had no more deaths? That would be great.
There's been so much x-tra chatter in this thread that I haven't been keeping up.

lol :) Ya, the fish remaining seem to be good, they're eating and playing and doing fish stuff. The yellow tang seems a bit off food still, but no more bumps or dots or powdery skin.

Do you think a UV or Ozone on the main tank would help during the fallow period?

Cheers,
Vic

Excellent.
And for the chatter, I tried to read it all, and it's good reading.
But sometimes ya get too busy and have to skim the content.

I don't see it hurting as far as 'bad critters' goes, but it will also kill off good bacteria. And especially since they aren't multiplying as much when it's fallow, my thought is, unless you are in a hurry, it may cause some unwanted die off.
Wouldn't most bad critters die off eventually on their own?

They will, but there also isn't any appreciable amount of good bacteria in the water column to worry about. Not really in a rush, other than getting the remaining goby out...

I don't remember where I originally learned about copper toxicity because it was probably a decade or more ago, but a quick Google search comes up with an article in a medical journal:

Copper and Alzheimer's. [Paper]

Copper toxicity in Merck Medical Journal. [Article]

Liver cirrhosis from copper is rather unusual to typical healthy people because the liver is able to remove copper via bile. People with a genetic inability to remove copper from their systems (like Wilson`s disease) will get accumulated copper in the liver which will lead to cirrhosis.

I think I missed something during my plumbing ...
Did Brad say he lost ALL his fish ?

Well that was a stupid post that I now can't edit.
I see, reading above, that you have remaining fish Brad.
I obviously confused your dilemma with someone else's.
I hope the dudes you have are doing well and fully recover.
I'm going to go back to my plumbing now before I make a bigger ass of myself that I can't edit later.

If you'd edited that away, I wouldn't be able to reply. Yes, I have a yellow tang, a clown and 2 tiny green chromis left. I guess cheap fish are more resilient to disease than the $200 fishes :)