Thanks Wayne. I've got lots of tanks. First order is get the ones in the T tank fixed. Second, I still have 2 fish in the 180, no idea how to get them.

I know you did Brad.. First tears ive actually ever shed for a fish, and that's from here! I can only imagine your pain having to witness this!

Did your vet id the culprit?

Sorry to hear about your loss. :(

Did adding Prime not help at all for ammonia?

I have my new fish in quarantine for 5 weeks and half now and due to this sad story I am going to keep them in quarantine another 2 weeks, just to be safe.

Yes, the vet said it was velvet, but I'm not sure what he's basing that on, probably photos under the scope.
No, prime did nothing for NH3 at all. The only thing that really works is a fully mature filter; once I got one, NH3 is now 0 (after a large water change).

I'll be building my fish list over the next couple of months, and I will buy them all at once, Q and treat, then into the tank.

so sorry that you were not able to save them Brad. Certainly you did everything that you could possibly try.

I know it will be a while before you are ready to proceed with the fish but I'm wondering how you are planning to handle the big swing in the water chemistry when you add all the fish at one time?

That's part of the plan I haven't quite figured out yet :) Tim T had suggested an ammonia salt added to the tank (NH4CL I think?), and this would keep the filter going. I do still have lots of snails, hermits and shrimp, which will contribute.
I suspect that the filter media from the treatment tank will be as disease free as the fish, so I imagine adding that to the sump with the addition of the fish should balance things out. I think. I can also transfer one or two every other day, they don't all need to go into the display the same day, they just need to be treated and quarantined together.

I haven't really got to that part yet though, at this point I still have half a dozen fish in treatment, 2 fish in the 180 to extract somehow, and then build a fish list. Once I've done that, I need to figure out how to pay for them.
In addition to sick fish, I've had a sick dog for 3 months that has cost me a couple grand so far....sigh

whats wrong with your dog??:(

well.. you will be ready for fish about April.. April is the next scheduled frag swap and sale:mrgreen: you may have to charge a slight cover charge at the door!

My advice would be to put the new fish through the hypo salinity routine, whether they look sick or not. I have done that twice now, for a total of 3 months from purchase to display tank. That way you are assured of no ich getting into your display tank. Of course be sure that your display tank is fallow for at least 3 months. And use a fully cycled canister filter with your QT.

I think the fish actually like the lower salinity water, as they adapted quickly, and seemed active and happy. That also gave me plenty of time to get them feeding well, and fatten them up before moving them to the display tank.

During the final week, I did daily water changes with display tank water, to bring the salinity up, changing more water each time until it was almost the same. A little extra salt with the final change brought the salinity equal to the display tank.

Another big advantage with this method is that the new fish are fully acclimatized to your display tank when you are done.

No idea. Best we can tell, a fungal infection. Lost a ton of weight, neurological issues, one eye messed up.

A specialist suggested a new medication that seems to be helping. We went with fungal even though the tests were negative. Twice. But this stuff seems to be helping, she's actually starting to play, after laying in the corner for 3 months...

well thats good news!

ya, she bit my arm and tried to drag me off the bed, looks like she's coming around -lol

Scopas and Leopard wrasse gone :(

sad,sad,sad...

Ya, it looks like I didn't get the meds in time. Won't happen again, I've ordered lots for future treatment/quarantine :)

May I ask which medications are you using?

Did you contact Fishman?

Cheers,
Vic

chloroquine phosphate..

brad i think you have a great idea build a fishlist and qt all at once and add at once, sorry to hear about all this you can tell its very stressful and emotional for you.

glad to hear the pup is on the mend its sad seeing your little buddy not well:(

cheers man im hoping the best for you:)

Where are you buying this?

In the US. Big bucks, and I bought enough to treat the pacific ocean :(

Oh Brad!! This is awful. Sorry I'm so late on the bandwagon here...

I didn't read it all, just the first few page, and last few pages. It sounds like you're not sure if it is velvet or not?

Personally, I won't use copper medication for any reason (I'm sure you've seen me say this before). I really like to use Formalin instead. It is very broad-spectrum...and my go to when I have no idea what is ailing the fish. I have never had it fail me yet. The only thing that is a pain in the butt about Formalin is that you have to dip the fish rather than treating the water in the hospital tank. I don't mind doing this because I'm not a fan of treating the water column anyway...I haven't had a whole lot of luck doing that. Even for antibiotics I prefer to put those into the food.

You said you were having troubles with Prime not working? How are you determining it is not working? Test kits? Which ones? Most test kits are not compatible with Prime. FWIW, AmQuel is half the price and 2x the concentration. BTW, these products need to be dosed daily - just enough to keep the ammonia low - don't go by the dosing instructions. Doing 25% waterchanges 1-2x weekly helps flush all the chems out too and make a big difference. You don't need a cycled filter or water. I've kept dozens of fish in fresh saltwater with nothing but an airstone and/or powerhead for weeks on end. You do have to use a lot of AmQuel or (even more) Prime though.

HTH

Thanks Mindy. Pretty sure it's velvet, but the stress may have also triggered some ich. It's all fish, 2 tanks.
Not a fan of copper either, but formalin scares me, I killed a $500 pair of discus once and swore I'd never use it again. This chloroquine sounds promising, and I'm trying that. Lots of references to it's success, so here's hoping.
I know you "can" setup a fresh tank, but it's just too much work with everything else I've got to deal with. The prime didn't work solely based on fish response. Once I got a mature foam block and did a nearly full water change, they settled down a bit. Unfortunately I helped them on their way to dead with ammonia levels first.
I still have a goby in the display that so far seems unaffected and too smart to go into the trap, so until he dies or jumps, the timer for fallow tank doesn't start. Overall, it's been a **** week....

Brad, you probably weren't dosing enough Prime. To give you an idea, I was dosing almost 1 mL per day AmQuel into about 6 gallons holding an adult pair of Darwin clowns. I split the dose into two times per day. Remember AmQuel is twice the concentration of Prime. I like those SeaChem Ammonia Alerts too. They aren't overly accurate as I find the ammonia level is often 10x what the alert says. So if there is even a trace that shows up on the alert I do an extra dose.

I am surprised you killed fish with Formalin. I've never killed a fish with it, and I've used it for the better part of 20 years. Although one has to be very diligent about using a good fine-bubble airstone while dipping the fish. The carcinogenic effect that Formalin has does scare me though, so I only use Formalin as a last resort. I am also very careful when working with it...I use gloves, eye goggles, the whole she-bang. The LC-50 of copper is way too close to the treatment level for me to be comfortable using it. Plus, hobbyist test kits suck in general and copper test kits are no exception so I'm not confident that we can test copper good enough to remain in that small window anyway.

Have you tried fishing for the Goby with a fish hook? Might need a permit. ;)

I probably used nowhere close to that amount, so I guess that's why it wasn't effective. I looked at one of those alert stick on things, thought it was pretty hoky looking, so passed.
The formalin was more a math error than anything, I used something like 10x the dose in tank. They were well preserved though...
I haven't researched the LC50 for copper, as I'm more concerned with the long term effects on liver and kidney. with the amount of water marine fish drink, they'd have to process way too much. And yes, testing and adjusting 2 or more times a day with hobbyist equipment is asking for trouble. And scaleless fish are more susceptible. and and and..it goes on, and not a chemical I'll use. I will stock some formalin though, just to have it on hand.

Hi Brad,

Formalin releases Formaldehyde gas which will affect your whole house and family. When doing a Formalin bath it is usually for a half hour and you need to aerate heavily as Formalin depletes the oxygen in the water. For me the risk of exposing my family to a carcinogen is not worth it when there are non toxic methods available.

I would skip the formalin bath as it's nasty for the fish, much worse than copper, and just do a fw bath for 5 minutes. If they have ick go longer if they can take it. If they have ick I would use hyposalinity(1.008) in the QT to control it.

Pretty much all wholesalers and exporters use copper in their holding systems so your fish have already been exposed for at least a month, most likely more as stores generally use copper to.

My recommendation would be the FW dips for the mv and hyposalinity treatment if they have ick.

+1 for Mindy on the Amquel. It is a much better product and doesn't stink like sulfur.

Cheers,
Tim

Thanks Tim. I've used formalin before, I know how it affects the house :)

While FW dips may help alleviate the parasite/protazoan on the fish, it does little to the free floating ones. I've reduced the tank a bit, and will drop it to 1.010 long term, but will continue with the chloroquine. It has no apparent ill effects on the fish, keeps the bacterial filter intact, and other than photosensitivity, keeps it's levels in the tank.

Since I now have a matured system running, I'll keep it going until I replace fish. I still can't keep a q tank going full time, so that's not an option long term.

Hi Brad,

Well you mentioned picking a kidlet up from hospital so I assumed there was kids in the house. Sounds like your familiar with it so enough said.

The FW dip will clean the fish, then if it goes into a sterile tank with new SW it should break the life cycle of the parasites.

I assume you are referring to QT for the 1.010 sg. I found that it wasn't quite therapeutic at that level, hence recommending the 1.008. I started trying the hypo at 1.012 but found that it became effective at 1.008. Hypo does not work against mv, only ick and flukes.

Cheers,
Tim

Brad, if you do get some Formalin 10% is easy to deal with... 0.1 mL per 1 liter of bath water. Most stuff sold for fish is 37% though which is also easy...1 mL per 1 gallon. :)

Good point on the Formaldehyde gas. I use it in our back room with the door closed and the windows open.

Where do you get the info that Formalin is worse for fish than copper? I've never heard that, and in my experiences I have had much better luck with Formalin than copper.

Sorry to hear about the losses Brad.

Actually if it is really velvet, chloroquinine phosphate would not be fast enough in treating it. Even cupramine is too slow for most cases, I would actually use the pure copper salt copper sulfatate in QT. I know how you said copper is bad for the fish in long term but what if there isn't a "long term" for them anymore - it's either you cure them or they are gone.

CP is good for using in the QT when new fish arrives, I've seen places that treat it on all new shipments; the speed it can get to the fish is questionable though.

Formalin is basically a burning agent, whatever it can burn in the water or on the fish, it kills. Formalin alone does not cure MV in most cases and it takes off fish's slime coat. It should not be used if fish has open wounds either or it kills them.

MV is one of the reasons why people QT their fish

Agreed, the meds were to late to save the heavily affected fish. If I had it 10 days ago, I could have probably saved them all. I'll be using it though for all future fish before they go in the display tank.

Can you share me some. Just in case my Atlantic ocean crash on me. I only know how to use paypal.

Hi Mindy,

Compare the health effects of Formalin(burns, blindness etc) to the health effects of copper(irritation etc). Here is some info from the MSDS for 37% formalin.

ACUTE HEALTH EFFECTS

Swallowed:

Toxic if swallowed.

Will cause burns to the mouth, mucous membranes, throat, oesophagus and stomach. If sufficient quantities are ingested (swallowed) death may occur.

The methanol stabilizer in solutions is a cause of visual impairment and possible permanent blindness.



Eye:

Will cause burns to the eyes with effects including: Pain, tearing, conjunctivitis and if duration of exposure is long enough, blindness will occur.



Skin:

Toxic by skin contact.

Will cause burns to the skin, with effects including; Redness, blistering, localised pain and dermatitis.

The material is capable of causing allergic skin reactions and may cause skin sensitisation. Toxic effects may result from skin absorption..



Inhaled:

Toxic if inhaled.

Will cause severe irritation to the nose, throat and respiratory system with effects including: Dizziness, headache, in-coordination, chest pains, coughing, respiratory paralysis and or failure.




It only takes 60 to 90ml of it ingested to kill a human.

When you do a Formalin bath on a fish you are burning off the protective slime layer, burning it's eyes, mouth, gills, throat and stomach.

With a FW bath non of these things occur.

With a copper treatment the fish is exposed to 0.26mg/l of ionic copper. Fish can survive exposures over 0.45mg/l of ionic copper.

Something else to consider is that 75% of the fish in this hobby have been cyanided when caught... so their lives are already shortened considerably. Exposing them to a little copper for a short time is not going to do to much, a lot less than the damage inflicted by the parasites. The problem with copper is that people don't generally have a reliable way of testing the concentration so they over/under dose. Sadly the fish usually dies either way.

Cheers,
Tim

Tim,

Hoomans are different than fishies, however in both copper damages liver and kidneys. In fish it also damages their gills and sense of smell which can implicate breeding behaviors. In hoomans, copper is linked to Alzheimer's Disease as well as liver damage (cirrhosis).

Dwarf Angelfish are particularly sensitive to copper treatment, [Here's a study] as are scaleless fish, some large Angelfish, and some Tangs.

Copper also binds with carbonates and precipitates out of the water column. If the pH drops (as is common for QTs) the precipitate will redissolve and cause a spike in copper large enough to be lethal. Copper is not compatible with Prime or AmQuel as those products will convert Cu+2 to Cu+ which is much more toxic and will often be lethal. Copper also stresses the fishes' systems enough that it can make the fish susceptible to other diseases.

With formalin, the fish is only exposed for a short time (45 to 60 minutes). Formalin is compatible with AmQuel and Prime, although the addition of ammonia detoxifiers are not needed in a bath anyway. The toxicity of formalin doesn't change in reaction to pH (or alkalinity). There is a much bigger difference between the treatment range and the LC-50 of Formalin in comparison to copper. The LC-50 of formalin is many times the concentration of typical baths. [Here's a study]

Formalin is also approved by the FDA to use as treatment for parasites on food fish, where copper is not. [FDA approved drugs]

I've read a lot of studies on copper and formalin, and I have not come to my conclusions uneducated. :)


Woah. That's quite the statement. I doubt you could support this statement with evidence...? How do you come to this conclusion?

I'm not sure how supportable it is, but I have no reservations about it being true. I can't catch a wrasse in a small box with a net, I don't believe for a second anyone catches one in the ocean with a net :)

I can tell you that many of the pgymy angels (Centropyge species) especially from Hawaii doesn't tolerate copper at all. In particular flame & potter angel, anytime I add copper even cupramine in 25% or less dosage, they will die. I have also heard from importers that some large angel will stop eating all along with copper.

I treated both of my potters angels with cupramine for 14 days with no problems. Copper will cause a decrease in appetite in all fish though

I once read somewhere, that because wrasses are such gluttons, that they catch them with barb less hooks, and quite easily

The thing is, the guys that catch these fish we enjoy are fathers and husbands, trying to feed their families. Now on average, they probably get 0.10 per fish on the beach from the local wholesaler. Now economically, they have to think that using a hook to catch a single fish will take what, 5 - 10 minutes on average (try it in your tank ). But, if they blast the reef head with CN, they'll get 50 fish dazed and confused, ready to be picked. That might mean the difference between rice and meat for dinner. mostly, these countries have little knowledge or concern for the environment, and see only what they can make today and the immediate future. Sure, there are programs to teach net fishing, and some orgs supply nets, and yes, some fish are actually caught that way. But for the fishermen to make decent money, and to supply the global demand for fish, they just are not catching sinlge fish on a hook in any appreciable volume. Some fish yes, clowns are easy to catch, some bottom dwellers, etc, but many fish can only (easily) be caught with a bottle of CN.
Is this 75%?? No idea, but I'm sure it's a lot higher than most people are aware...IMO :)

I have a friend from Bali that used to work as a fisherman for the aquarium trade. I asked him all about it years ago, and he confirmed that cyanide was still used there, although it was frowned upon even within the fishermen. He figured the number would be closer to 10%.

I think 75% is outrageously exaggerated. It would be nice if someone did an undercover analysis of the fish collection for the aquarium trade. We might learn all sorts of interesting (and scary) things...