And where were you hiding 10 years ago :wink:

Steve

Uh, I was still breast feeding. :eek:


I'm kidding...I was graduating highschool 10 years ago. Ugh...I remember when that seemed really old. :neutral:

:spit: so was I, what a coincidence. :mrgreen:

Steve

:drinking:mmmmmkay, I knew there was a reason I haven't been posting on canreef as much....I think I'll go back and read my book now :silly:

Uggg,
 

I remember years ago attending a conference on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Just prior to this I was running a small company, and grew up with most of my family being business owners.

Anyways, I had a little experience with a group of students working towards a degree in social work. As group we were to decide between 2 people who we would want to hire -- The "job" was working with disadvantaged youth. The two people to pick from were A) 35 year old with Masters in social work, 5 years work experience work with youths, white male and B) 30 year old "ethnic" female with grade 10 only, 5 years experience as an assistant in womens shelter.


Now, from the point of view of a pretend manager/owner/whatever -- it was pretty clear that A was a better person for the job -- nothing do with race, gender,age whatever. Just had more education, and more relevant experience. Simple though process -- who is going to be the best and getting the job done and done well.

I was called foul names by the rest of the group. What about the woman, she might have some real "life" experience, she might not had had proper access to education, she might have never had the chance to blah,blah blah.

The sad part in all of this -- If I am running a business that my livelihood depends on, I DON"T CARE about how rough or great your life has been, I DON"T CARE what your gender,race,age is. I car about who is best for the job.
Somehow, the private sector has been branded as been "good ole white boys clubs", with the need to legislate rules in to "fix" the problem. It seems to me that a lot of these rules seem to put more racism/sexism in than was there to start.

Yes, women rarely got management when they were 20-30ish year old. But, on the other hand -- In a long term high stress, high learning curve job some owners didn't what to go though getting a mat leave replacement just before the big project is due in. Not nice, but it did happen.

I really dislike the "affirmative action" laws, as I think that my local fireperson should be able to haul 50lbs of hose up a ladder regardless if the are male or female. If you drive heavy haulers for a mine, guess what, women are the preferred gender. They driver better and the trucks have less downtime, if as a guy you drive like a twit, you get replaced.

Best person for the job, regardless of gender/race/age/religion/etc. In fact, I wish there was a way to exclude such information from the hiring process completely.

Sorry for the long winded response, my wife is a Sociologist, so these things are normal conversation around my house :mrgreen:

Now this is what I was waiting for in this discussion...

Well, men have this sort of 'alpha male' thing going on, where they need to be the king of their own domain. Whether that domain is at the office ('the boss'), at home ('the breadwinner'), in sports ('the MVP'), etc... it doesn't matter, we definitely need to FEEL superior, whether in truth we hold a high position in society, in the home, whatever. So, what happens when the wife wears the pants? "Fine, I'll stay home and cook dinner, clean the house, wash and fold the laundry, etc, and YOU can be 'the breadwinner'." Nobody ever really wants to be equal, they want to be SUPERIOR! (Even women :) ) So, I'd say your theory is probably not far off. Take it from an 'unequal male' :lol:

Slippery slope, isn't it?

What sort of disadvantaged youth? In what sort of setting? There is going to be a lot of things to look at when making that sort of decision... I can think of a number of situations where B would be a much better choice. I agree that A is more qualified, but would he bring the right... oh, I dunno, let's use the word 'vision', to the youth? Sooo much to ponder here, glad I'll (probably) never have to make that sort of decision. Anyone is qualified enough to stock shelves and dig ditches (though the latter is generally left to machinery these days).

If you're running a business that your livelihood depends on, you shouldn't care about those things. You should be focused on what is best for the business... but often times people are blinded by beliefs, stereotypes, and other insidious generalities. If everyone was truly equal, we wouldn't be having this discussion...

If I had to choose between Fifty Cent and Eminem, I'd choose Eminem simply because I can relate to him better. They are both equally good rappers (I don't like rap, for the record), both come from crappy backgrounds or 'the 'hood' or whatever. But even so, I would hire Eminem over Fity because I 'know where he comes from'... this is a really vague idea to try to get across, so I'll stop there.

I feel that in some cases there was a problem, for both minorities and women. The problem hasn't been solved by legislating that you now have to hire often less qualified (and therefore probably less useful) employees that fill the 'female or minority' slot, which in some cases is going to perpetuate stereotypes and make the overall problem worse.

This is true. I also know a couple lady truckers that do long hauls, and I guarantee they are the safest truckers on the road. At least, I feel safer...

... maybe why there are no female fire fighters in my town, had never thought of that before (never really questioned it, I don't know many women that could drag my dead weight while wearing fire gear)... there are few (if any) women working underground at the mine here but a fair number working in places like the machine shop, labs, security etc.

But that would make the hiring process equal and just. Can't have that, can we. :wink:

taking your fire fighting example here is a good one. In the millitary we had to a an anual express test to assess ouf fitness level. so for a 40 year old man, you have to be able to do the shuttle run for 5min, 17 pushups and 19 situps in 60 sec, as well as a grip test that I believe you had to get 120 total.

so for a 40 year old woman you have to do the shuttle run for 2.5 min, 12 pushups I believe, 14 situps and 65 total for the grip test (numbers might be out a little but work for the example)

now both man and woman are expected to do the exact same job, carry the same equipment, and be able to support there group the same.

so why the differance in standards? Well aparently the female body can't do the same "work" as the male body. ok fine, so why then do they allow them to do the same jobs as the men which require that same "work" with out them being able to meet the same standard?

now I don't have anything against women doing the jobs, and I had several women work for me over the years with out issues, but why are the standards not the same. especialy for people who are there to protect our nation?

Steve

I agree 100%! Different standards are ridiculous. If the women's standards are "good enough", then they should be the same for the men. Making excuses for someone based on their sex, religion, race, etc is absolutely ridiculous. I believe in the Darwin theory...the tough and smart will rise! Don't get me started on Social Assistance and/or obese people....

I work in a male-dominated industry, and while I can keep up to the men (and outwork many) I know I can't work this hard for many more years. I need to look for a more long-term solution.

hey watch the fat comments :mrgreen:
Obese is a bad tearm, with a lose defination as it is bassed on weight for a given high. If you go buy BMI then any body builder is obese. a good example is when I was young and befor I wrected my knees in the mid 90's I was 235lbs, but acording to BMI I should have been 185 as a max so I was obese, but I has a 32" waist and a 7% body fat so how was I obese. now that I am older and have bad knees my waist has increased and I have gotten my weight down into the 220's again.. went up to almost 300 at one point befor and after my knee surgerys.

but at thoes weights I could still pass the physical requirments and keep up to the younger kids :wink:

Steve

To pigeon hole humans is to do them a disservice, to say that all men are stronger/smarter is to deny a significant portion of the human race a happy life.
We all have our strengths and our weaknesses and they are in no way gender specific

Myka, just because you can't keep up with your job does not mean another women couldn't do the same job "working that hard" and be happy.