It's just pretty much of a good example of the current thinking in some(most) of our local LFS.

Enuf said.

:neutral:

1) If you ever take up diving into the tropics, you will see that anemones are emphatically NOT "somehow aggregate together." The only exception to this are the species that are able to clone, and form colonies. But this is not true of all species of anemone.

If you look at any piece of the Great Barrier Reef, for example, you can swim 100m before encountering any anemone whatsoever. You can't swim a stone's throw in any direction before you surpass hundreds of SPS or other species.

Anemones do not hang out together on the reef. To quote Dr. Ron Shimek in a conversation we had about a year or two ago, "multi-species assemblages are neither natural nor desireable."

2) You are not importing them to live in a tank for 5-6 years but you are importing them. So if they don't live for 5-6 years after they leave your shop does that exonerate you because it wasn't in your care? What about the oft-quoted statistic that maybe 1 in 10 anemones imported live to be >5years in captivity? Of those 9 how many did not make it past the first 6 months? Or 3 months? Or 1 month? If an animal melts in the first week, was it because the animal was acclimated poorly or because the tank was ill-suited? Maybe, but what about the possibility that the animal was so stressed or compromised that the last acclimation was just the final kick in the pants to seal its fate? Anemones do not find each other in multiple numbers in such close quarters and one of the worst things you can do to a stressed anemone is put it into a closed system with many other stressed anemones. The collection to retail process is in my opinion extremely harsh on them and I think we can't disregard what happens before we buy the animals as a factor in the absolute horrid statistics for long-term success (or lack thereof) of anemones in captivity. Especially shameful considering that our best guesses for anemone lifespans is that it is immeasureable.

An anemone collected out of the wild is that much less habitat for a wild breeding pair of clownfish. We really, really need to tread more carefully with anemones because I think the future for them in the wild is grim if we don't start getting our act together.


3) It is a shop, not a zoo. But to what extent do you keep conditions suitable? To the fullest extent practical. If it is not practical to properly care for the animal during the duration of its stay in your facilities, I think the ethical choice is to not offer that animal. Even if that means disappointing a few customers along the way.

Here is the thing ... anemones typically dont react to unsuitable environments in a really negative way for awhhile ( awile can be defined in hours or days or weeks or even months ) ... as a result if you only have them in your tanks for 1 to 7 days then who knows what adverse effects happen after they leave your care ? ... as to anemones living in a communal setting ... they are more than likely clones and of the same species ... clones will easily cohabitate with their own but react negatively with other species especially in a closed system.

So the whole point is not to rake you over the coals for some anemones ... as Quinn has so eloquently pointed out some of the shortfalls of the industry and you have also pointed out the challenges you face and hopefully we can do whats best for everyone even if it means that we ( collectively ) have to pay a little more to ensure that these animals have a good chance at survival when they reach your stores and beyond to our marine habitats.

We look forward to improved displays and quality of selection :cool:

Cheers

You and I were posting at the same time Tony :smile:

Cheers

Well I did.

Yesterday. Tell me it lived. :rolleyes:

(On a point of interest) not only other species but even specimens of the same species that are non-clonal siblings. In fact, competition for survival among same species may be greatest because they are competing for the same niche in the habitat (need same resources, etc.)...

Good point Tony ... I was mostly referring to Clones in my example but your point is well taken in reference to the species as a whole ...

Cheers

Where to start??? After being away for a couple of days, I'm compelled to waid into this quagmire of crap. Where to start???

I will say that fundamentally this industry is much like any other, believe it or not. When you get down to the root of it, all the products, be it dry goods or live, are a commodity. Don't even drag oil companies into this argument...that's a whole other board for another day. The two industries don't even compare.

Industry greed...well I would like to add that you, the hobbyist (nobody specifically out there), are part of this industry, and thus, are part of the problem too. This is where the market forces come into play. Much is made of the collectors, exporters, importers, and LFS, but I don't here a peep on these boards when a hobbyist purchases a product that is unsuitable or at risk. Apparantly that is taboo. I agree that most of you are ones that actually care, but make up the minority of trade. There are a great many that make purchases solely on price. This could explain why the majority of the fish and inverts come from Indonesia or the Philippines. Check back to other discussions on this board and look at some of the comments. Hobbyists (few) would rather save money and purchase a fish that may have been caught with cyanide rather than pay a premium for a fish that is guaranteed caught without. Why don't you see coral beauties from either Fiji or Australia with any regularity? Answer - too much money for the average hobbyist when compared with the same fish from Indo or PI.

Now take a look at captive bred product. Why isn't there more? Answer - see above. The average hobbyist again will balk at purchasing that CB clown because it's twice the price of the wild caught clown. I have 5 captive bred seahorses that I've had for seven weeks. I haven't sold single horse...because they are too expensive.

My mind is about to explode, so let me have it.

Just curious, but where are you from saltcreep? :confused:

Why...I know too much? I could tell you a lot more, but would get myself into trouble. Actually, I am co-owner of Coast Mountain Aquatics in Vancouver (wholesale only). I 'm ready to take all you've got :lol: .

Wow where gettin quite the audience.

Well then that brings up a interesting point in that a LFS could get their hands on quality if they choose to and as a wholesaler you are privy to this information ... now a LFS that proudly advertises non-cyanide caught fish and has to pay a premium for it can get a premium in return ... for one thing there wont be as much die-off in their own tanks before they even get sold and they could QT the fish as well which as hobbyists appreciate since there seems to be a large number that cant resist putting that new fish into their tanks right away but at the risk of infecting all the fish in their tanks by doing so ...

the majority of people you say would buy the fish even if it was cyanide caught I bet ya dont even know that fish can be caught with cyanide :rolleyes: ... what needs to be done is to educate the public of the advantages of net caught over cyanide caught ... ask anyone that has been on one of these boards for at least a few months how much they have learned about the hobby as a whole and they appreciate the education these boards provide ... nice to see another point of view ... hope that does not hurt your head too much ? :razz:

Cheers

I would love a seahorse in my 75g fuge. I was getting excited. The price wouldn't have mattered much but as you said we only make up a fragment of the reefers

Yeah, it's the thread that wouldn't die... :rolleyes: :biggrin:
Even gently scolding a newbie is a risk, especially one that you have the thinnest relationship with (as in on this board). Telling a guy that he's an idiot for buying that CBB when everyone told him not to, is going to get him ****ed off and most likely gone for good, making his mistakes on his own from here on in... Or that anemone, or that tang, or that dragonette, etc etc etc...

It's only the people you know who'll take correction from you, and even then, it's easy to take offense and leave. Nobody is trying to kill anything, it just happens...

You actually do see a tremendous amount of restraint on this board, when it comes to chiding people for unsuitable purchases, mostly before the fact. Sometimes I want to lay a lashing on folks, but hey, I'm no expert either. When the experienced reefers do step in with stronger advice (and where the heck IS Van anyways??) even that is taken wrong. Some of the best advice I've seen has provoked the idiots it was intended for.

(No offense intended of course... :wink: I think we need a Don Cherry for the reefing community - to tell it like it is. :lol: )

Here, here to education. Why do you think I frequent these boards? Most of you know as much or more about proper husbandry than I.

I would also agree that the vast majority of hobbyists are oblivious to environtmental concerns and others that just don't care. Trust me, doing the right thing doesn't always end with $ucce$$.

There are a lot of good LFS out there and some real bad ones. Some of the bad ones we try and help out and we try to be available to the ones that look for our help. It is also the LFS responsibility to educate themselves, just as the hobbyist...which I guess gets back to the whole point of the thread.

I am going to loose sleep over this thread. Here we go again...

Obviously you're not looking at this from the same perspective as me then, because I think there are a lot of parallels here. Let's look at Shell in Nigeria when we compare, for a moment. We are talking about harvesting a natural resource, one that is only semi-renewable, from a foreign country, a foreign country that is in a state where they are desperate for foreign investment. These states are relatively young and underdeveloped, and do not have established protocol for the harvesting of natural resources. We do not need to discuss human rights infringements but we can certainly compare the two industries. Therefore I would argue that marine livestock collection in southeast Asia and oil drilling in Africa are relatively similar, versus say, the former and logging in British Columbia. This was my essential point.

For every LFS there are probably several thousand aquarists. Therefore the power, I believe, lies more in their hands, and the hands of importers/wholesalers, to deal with unsuitable/at-risk animals, versus the hobbyists. Alan has pointed out that it is difficult for us hobbyists to tell a newbie not to put seahorses in a reef tank or not to buy a mandarin for a 20 gallon. The answer, once again, is to stop their importation or license their ownership. You say that none of the blame falls on the hobbyist - I hear where you are coming from, but how do you blame a child for manslaughter when the parent handed him a loaded gun? The stores, wholesalers and importers need to start acting responsibly, first off by helping educate newbies rather than pushing for the almighty dollar and secondly by restricting or working with the authorities to restrict certain species.

We'll balk at high costs yes, but what if the stores only sold captive-bred? Again you are trying to defer the blame, which sounds good, but doesn't make sense. If stores stopped stocking both and didn't note whether the animals were wild-caught or captive-bred, hobbyists wouldn't know the difference and wouldn't have a thing to balk about. Also, remember that the vast majority of fish have not been bred in captivity. As far as I know, it's limited to essentially certain types of clowns, damsels, gobies, angelfish, shrimps and seahorses, and with a few exceptions, we only see damsels and clownfish in stores.

The feeling I'm getting from the people on the commercial side of things here is that "it can't be done". Us hobbyists are saying "oh please, we know it's easy". I think the reality is somewhere in between, and I'll quote Caterpillar Corp's slogan from back in the 70s, a time when the public was just beginning to become aware of the environmental issues associated with the harvesting of natural resources: "There are no simple solutions, only intelligent choices". And I'll add my own maxim to this, for good measure: "There are no simple answers to complex problems. Anyone who thinks there are is an idiot."

Don't lose any sleep, this is getting good.

WRT oil vs fish, I see your point, but the end product use is completely different...one is arguably a necessity and the other is a luxury "consumable". You could also argue the investment side, where African governments are raking in billions of dollars while crushing rights of their constituents while collectors in PI or Indo are trying to catch fish to feed their families. Now I promise...that is my last word about oil.

Now on to the heart of it...I believe that the vast majority of the blame can be placed on the importer, retailers, and the hobbyists. ALL of them. If I said that no blame falls on the hobbyist...ooops. I think a great deal falls on them, if not the majority. Again, if the newbie or uneducated doesn't want or buy the unsuitable fish/coral, then the retailer wouldn't buy it...and on the chain it goes. I know...oversimplified. As a side, I can remember getting yelled at buy an unnamed LFS for refusing to bring in a blue ring octopus.

Restricting certain species based on a perceived unsuitability will probably never happen. I would refer you to RC or RDO for that discussion, as it's been flogged pretty much to death.

A LFS store only selling captive bred??? That would never fly, period. Remember, the "average" generally will decide to purchase based on price. The "average" hobbyist will just shop elsewhere. They would certainly be able to tell if it was captive bred. How would you be able to justify the price if the guy down the street has the same fish for half the price.

Then you have the the issue of species availability. How many percs can you sell to pay your rent and hydro? The species commercially available today are very limited to about 10 species of clowns, a couple of cardinals, some dottybacks, and a few others. There are some Centropyge angels available but, big dollars. There is nothing wrong with wild caught fish as long as it is done with very little impact on the reef. CB and WC fish are not mutually exclusive. I believe they actually compliment each other nicely.

Thanks for your response. I want to debate your oil industry comment further but I'm going to refrain, because I think we'd be getting even more off course.

I think we've made some headway in this thread, believe it or not. I always feel smarter when I participate in these big threads, even though I know it makes me look pretty dumb sometimes. The original topic was Calgary LFSs, and if this thread doesn't give them something to think about, I don't know what will. Hopefully we will see some serious improvements in the future.

Don't think the comments about the Calgary LFS are exclusive to them. There are good and bad everywhere. Hopefully, all will improve.

just drop a line, i received a shipment from coastmountain this morning at 4am... very tired, i have to say the fish is very very good upon arrival. and the emperor and blue ring angels are eating after only 13 hrs from transport. :razz:

also, may i comment on the live rocks from coast mountain. very very good. :biggrin: top of the pack/!!

and a announcement, ocean aquarium will have a large coral shipment on december 3rd, anyone interested can be there on december 4th.

lastly, since i started this whole havoc. may i set a conclusion??

i think so far, i have seen alot of you saying alot, giving useful directions and comments on how to improve the LFS scene. and i think it is "safe" to conclude that LFS is important, we should try our best to improve on LFS owners and workers, this way, we all benefits. as far as how to do that, i am very very young and inexperience, and possibly been ****ing off alot of people in this topic... therefore it is not appropriate for me to suggest...

cheers :lol:

Please use the "Vendor Announcements" forum for shipment announcements. Thanks.

Not trying to restart this thread, but what we've been talking about here was exemplified today on RC...

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=277679

I'm just getting back into this hobby after 20 years and after visiting all of the above LFS's I am astounded by the lack of knowledge and the lets get as much money from the uneducated as we can attitude.

In my previous experience, long ago, the few LFS that carried marine had incredibly knowledgable staff/owners who actually enjoyed the hobby, shared their knowledge eagerly with their customers and did not try to rip you off. When I see J&L's prices vs all the LFS here in Calgary and when I see the state that most of their tanks and livestock are in I'm disgusted!

Anyone out there for starting up a LFS that strives to get the best equipment at honest prices, give great service, treats livestock conscientiously, and take an actual interest in their clientele let me know I,m on board.

Sorry for the rant but just my .02 worth

Disgusted already? That didn't take long... :wink:
What do you consider "honest price"?

Mitch

When I see lighting systems at $150 more and replacement bulbs at $40 more. Then I begin to ? the honesty in their pricing. Now I understand every business needs to make a profit, but when does it become gauging?

My disgust was more in seeing dead livestock, I guess that would be deadstock, in several of the tanks. We can all go elsewhere if we want better prices, but it saddens me to see a beautiful marine specimen dead on the the bottom of the tank in a LFS and obviously having been there for awhile.

Cheers Scott

That is the reality of the business. Many fish die after the trauma of being removed from the ocean, shipped for many hours etc. I am sure the retailer does not want his fish to die. It would be better for him for you to buy the fish , and have it die in your tank. However, that being said, the cost of that dead fish has to be added to the cost of the fish you buy. That of course is one of the reasons for the high cost of marine fish. The retailer has to make money, or get out of the business.
As far as dry good go, the online seller can sell cheaper. He has no cost of renting a store, pay staff etc.

I understand that there is an unavoidable level of attrition, but please, that does not excuse the LFS from leaving dead fish in the tank for days as I have seen recently.

Whenever my sweetie join's me on "LFS crawls" it's almost alway's a sure bet that a dead fish will be seen somewhere. It bothers me to see that it's just ignored but I suppose I'm immune to it ? Not my little woman though. No sir. She'll march right up to the first staff member she see's and inform them of her findings and sugguest something be done about it !
She was once informed that "they were aware of that and they allow the other fish to consume the remains..." :eek: . That went over well... :rolleyes:

This is a fairly poor argument Bob. J&L is one of the cheapest sources for both livestock and dry goods in Canada, and they have a storefront and staff. There are costs associated with selling, whether you're online or not. A guy shipping fish out of his basement has to pay for the associated electricity, water, etc. Even drop shippers (as LiveAquaria.com is said to be) must pay for a location and associated costs, and the cost of holding the animals while they assemble the order.

Even more disappointing than dead fish in tanks is starving fish in tanks. The dead ones may have died during shipping. But there's no reason animals should be starving at the LFSs.

One of the reasons behind fish starving in LFS tanks is the fact that they were caught using cyanide, which I believe will also destroy the bacteria living in the intestines, so while a fish may have lots of food available, and may indeed be eating, the fish is getting no nutritional benefit.

The same goes for over medicating with copper.

I pretty sure about cyanide doing that, but I may be wrong. That's one of the problems associated with cyanide collection.

Not to mention that there they were, swimming in their nice comfy ocean, and all of a sudden they find themselves in a bare tank with lots of other fish.
There may be some stress associated with that too.... :wink:

Mitch

Why buy something over the net that you aren't guarenteed to get alive. In my experience you can find good healthy livestock at Wai's, they are also the best for corals in Calgary. I have also had great success with all fish that I've purchased from Petcetera belive it or not. Stay far far away from Big Al's as my success rate with their fish is 0%.

Hi there guys. I've been reading these boards for a long time but never really took the time to sign up. My mentality centralized on the fact that I am an LFS employee (Gold Aquariums) and therefore my opinions will always be regarded as biased. I'm speaking from past experiences.

Regardless, I really have to comment on all this. The LFS will always be a starting point for anyone to get into the hobby. That's a fact.

I think the biggest issue here is that no one says anything. No one tells the LFS what their concerns are (dead fish yeah, but really, when's the last time most of you have stepped up to bat and told anyone "hey, you shouldn't import those things anymore" or "look buddy, you're ripping me off and I know it".

Voice your concerns. Let them know that you know. If enough opinions become valid to the LFS business, that would make any responsible LFS owner at the very least consider the changes.

I'm not sure if I've dug myself a hole somewhere here, but honestly, I think that if change is to be made, the consumer has to let the dealer know directly rather then hole up on some message boards and debate on the merits who's good and who's horrible.

Anyway, what do you guys do at your meets and when are they?

So you're saying that these store keepers, who've been in the hobby for years, can't identify for themselves what constitutes poor practice? :neutral: I agree we hobbyists could say something, but that doesn't make it our responsibility, and I don't think our advice/recommendations/opinions would be welcome in most cases.

We have meetings now and again, and generally just eat, talk and look at the host's tanks. You would be most welcome I am sure.

Some are in it for the money. Some are unresponsible. Whatever the reason, my point is that if you know you're getting a bunch of balogna, don't just take it up silently. Some people will continue with whatever they can get away with for as long as they can.

Whichever way it is, I'm not defending Gold Aquariums. I don't see any need to.

None of what I say is meant in a confrontational manner either. Just my $.02.

----------------------------

Cool! I'll keep my eyes peeled for them. Thanks!

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I remember a pretty heated argument with an employee at Big Al's that I was in, they ended up tag teaming me before I could prove my point. They weren't will ing to listen to my concerns as I was just a lowly customer and they are all "experts". Try telling some one like Bigs Al's that they are doing something wrong and see were it gets you.

Maybe my aproach was wrong in this certian instance, but every time I go in there just to look, I am amazed at how their employees treat customers. Some will say anything to make a sale just like used car salesman, Thanks for letting me vent again, I love bashing Big Al's!

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Incidently Albert, I have been going to Gold's for a long time for cichlids and now for marine. I have had nothing but good livestock and the service seems honest, thanks! Anything cool at Gold's that I should come and check out?

One day, I'll do it. I'll go somewhere and ask if that sea apple is safe for my tang and angel tank. See how that goes.

Re: reply again
 

We get new marines in every Friday. Corals every two weeks or so.

I have a sense I may regret getting involved in this "dispute", but far be it from me to sit quietly and listen to things I find arguable.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion and frankly, that's what this board is all about. It does bother me when an individual can praise one store and bash another. Especially when my experiences are completely opposite. How can a store be praised when it boasts such arrogant service and houses such disease ridden livestock... :confused: . My solution is simple. I do voice my concerns and disgust when justifiable but when the response quoted is "they're only fish..." I've done my part. My business is done elsewhere. End of story... If the experiences are reversed for others, I suggest you do the same ! Go elsewhere. And continue to go elsewhere. So many people will critisize a store yet they continue to support them. That makes you as guilty as them.
Indeed some places are simply in it for the sale. That is present in every industry and it is unfortunate. So tell them. If they "tag team" you with the additude they know more than you...perhaps you entered into a battle which should not have been began. :confused: .
I try and carry a degree of respect for all individuals who work in this chosen industry. I like to think their experiences are something from which I can gain from. As a consumer, we have a responsibility of making informed decisions. Making that decision based on one individuals recomendations can be a very dangerous practice.
As a hobbiest for many years, I've always found some individuals who are quick to boast about their wisdom in the hobby. Some are legitimate, others simply don't understand the concept of two ears and only one mouth...as I've expanded my hobby into a form of business I meet even more people with the "know it all attitude". I politely listen and let them express themselves. If I disagree or feel they're "mis-informed", I tell them. I can quickly distinguish between those who are willing to share experiences and learn from on another, and those who just need to talk. I can't change that and I don't try to...
Perhaps our "approach" or "delivery" with the industry employees should be re-considered as these individuals see it all, every day. I consider myself very experienced in this hobby but I never fail to listen to those I meet that are passionate about this hobby too. I've been keeping fish for nearly thirty years but much of what I learn is from people who have been doing it for perhaps only two years. As Steve so appropriately stated once, "there's more than one way to skin a cat".

Before I totally get off topic let me say this. Talk to your retailers. They might just care enough to listen. If they don't, ask yourself, was it my approach or do they want my money and future refernces to go elsewhere...?

After reviewing this post, I'd like to add that "Gold's" is not one of the stores which I was referring to. Though limited, every experience with Dennis has been a positive one...

Since this thread is once again resurfacing as a popular discussion topic, I thought I would throw in my comments.

Like most of us, I have spent thousands of dollars in this hobby and contiue to spend a considerable amount every month. I frequent all the LFS in Calgary on a regular basis to see what is new and always have my visa ready for that "impulse" purchase.

I have been in Wai's several times and often ask when the next acro shipment is coming in. I find his customer service to be absolutely terrible. Most times I am the only one in the store and he doesn't even look up from his front desk to say hello or ask if I need help.

I have finally vowed never to return and will take my business to the other LFS in Calgary or buy online from J&L or Ocean Aquatics.

I am not looking for a "deal", I will pay a premium for good service and honest advise.

My only regret is that I didn't tell Danny I wouldn't be back.

I hope he reads these posts on Canreef, but somehow I don't think he does or cares.

Jim :mad: